The Medieval Mod IV v3.03 beta for VI

[WesW]

The 3.03 beta is now posted.

It corrects the bug from the last beta, fixes and cleans up a lot of the battlefield textures, improves the early era startpos text, contains updated and accurate costs for the imported VC units, contains updated spreadsheets and mod description text, more unit descriptions, and many other things.

I hope that all unit costs and upkeep values are correct now, though I didn't check the re-named units. Some of the changes to the cavalry units were substantial. The changes went both up and down, but generally costs seemed to go down while upkeep went up. Both the units and the units text pages of the spreadsheet have been updated to reflect the changes.

Irish Dartmen have replaced the Kerns in the mod. The spreadsheet has an accurate listing of the stats, but I think the only major difference from the VC is that they have better defense.

Royal Bodyguards now take two turns to build, and require either a level 2 Royal_Court (early and high) or a level 3 Court (late). Since bodyguard units can be built by any faction anywhere, this should help discourage people from making many of them. My aim actually is to make it so that the only reason for making them is to replenish the ranks of the princes' units.

Some of the Hungarian cavalry units have been changed, and these changes are not noted in the mod texts or charts. The Bashtina are now called the Vlastela, and are Feudal Kns. with a bow. The Nobles are -1 valour from their base unit of Feudal Kns. The Husar's stats are 8,3,2,4.

A new unit has been added; Outremer Sergeants. They have the same look and stats as the former Hoplitai, and are available in all eras in the Outremer provinces. These are listed in the description text.

Merc Gallowglasses are now restricted to the same northern European provinces as the Merc Swiss Pikemen.

Cossacks now have the same stats and equipment as Gendarmes, though with a different horse.

Berdyshi are now Swiss Halbardiers with minus one to the cav att and def bonuses.

Rus Spearmen and Norman Kns have an extra attack point.

Sipahi of the Porte are now back to their original stats and era (late). This leaves the Byzantines with the only bodyguard unit without penalties or era restrictions, but it can only be built in the Byzantine Homeland.

I feel really good about the current units and setttings in the game, and this should be the last version that requires you to get the entire mod. From now on I should be able to post updates which don't include any graphics or textures files.

I have changed my plans regarding the mod with the way things have gone, and right now I plan to incorporate any changes which come out of play-testing this beta into the first public release of the mod, which will not contain the minor factions. This will result in more people playing the game and providing feedback while the mod continues to develop. This is since I have now implemented most all of the parts of the mod other than the minor factions, and cleaned up the texts and graphics really well.
Hopefully the minor factions will be in the mod in a couple of weeks and a full release will be set to go, which incorporates the suggestions which come out of the first public release.

This version is barely a beta any more, and almost gold, so now would be a good time to join in for those of you hesitant about downloading betas.

[Lancer6969]

Royal Bodygaurds take two years to train 20 troops?? Ahh, maybe you should keep it to one.

[Yelping Godzilla]

I prefer it being set to 20. I was thinking along the lines of them only being useful to repair units actually containing royals too. At one year, despite them being only 20 troops, even the Italians could try and build up powerful heavy cav armies. This just effectively stops you from making royal bodyguard armies. Good stuff.

EEUURAAH.

[ShadesPanther]

I did a test one day to try to make eastern armies more effective and i found that if you give the hybrids something like 5 arrows they will charge them immediatly after the arrow and be quite effective.

just a finding http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Yelping Godzilla]

It's certainly an interesting idea. But if they only fire five volleys, the point of them actually using bows is somewhat negated. I don't know. Right now the AI does have problems with hybrids, in that is doesn't use them the way we would. Whether that makes them that much less effective overall, I'm not sure.

EEUURAAH.

[BDC]

Looks good, can't wait to test this...

EDIT: Site seems to be down. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[WesW]

Apolyton is back up, for the moment anyway.
I just finished reading the downtime posts from the Admins, and they are having trouble with RAM overloads on their server, and maybe something else, too. This would explain the trouble with dl'ing a large file like the mod.
They had ordered another Gig of RAM, and it was supposed to arrive last Tuesday. As of Friday it had yet to arrive. Perhaps they will have it in by Monday, since they have had at least one downtime period each of the last eight days.

[Yelping Godzilla]

Damn those crazy Lithuanians

Is twelve revolutions in twelve consecutive years a record for one province? Weirdly, capturing rebels is the only way I can afford to build as the Danes right now. Great fun.

In other news, some suggestions regarding Mongols:

Perhaps to add variety the mongols should get versions of the steppe dwelling units that fit in with their bargain price scheme - Mongol Steppe Cavalry, just subjugated random steppe tribes and Mongol Steppe Heavy Cavalry. Same stats etc, just a cheaper version available only to mongols. Right now just having them available to build for the mongols might weaken the AI, as they are nowhere near as a good buys as actual mongolians. Along the same lines, I wonder if they should actually be able to train basic archers, spearmen and horse archers since their own units are so good and when you battle mongols, you want to be fighting mongols are very little else. Again, along the same lines, I can't help but wonder if they should be allowed alan mercenary cav. They're a pointless and expensive buy when you can fairly easily get Mongol heavy or Mongol horse. Lastly, the chinese arty doesn't appear to work correctly. I'm not 100% sure it's bugged though.

Nothing that important, just some thoughts on an often neglected faction.

I'm going to finish off the Danish descriptions by the end of the weekend. A lot of it is real fiction, since the Danish aren't supposed to be historically accurate, but I've tried to throw in a little historical flavour and think about what could have kept them distinct from other armies.

EEUURAAH.

[A_B]

I found a problem in the early campaign version (3.2). The Novgorod faction doesn't have any facton offices associated with it. They can't get chancelors, Marshal of the Horse, etc.

[Lancer6969]

Yelping Godzilla---
Quote[/b] ]I prefer it being set to 20. I was thinking along the lines of them only being useful to repair units actually containing royals too. At one year, despite them being only 20 troops, even the Italians could try and build up powerful heavy cav armies. This just effectively stops you from making royal bodyguard armies. Good stuff.



I wasn't talking about the number of troops, I was talking about the amount of years it took to train the troops. It takes two years in this mod, and I thought that was a little long for 20 troops. I dont want the number of troops to go down, I just think one year is suffecient.
And if someone wants to make an army of Royal Bodygaurds, let them, they will lose badly. Even all Royal Infantry, if there was such.

Lancer
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[BDC]

Wow A lot more polished than the last version of the beta I played... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Well done chaps.

[Yelping Godzilla]

Quote[/b] (Lancer6969 @ Aug. 23 2003,22:10)]I wasn't talking about the number of troops, I was talking about the amount of years it took to train the troops. It takes two years in this mod, and I thought that was a little long for 20 troops. I dont want the number of troops to go down, I just think one year is suffecient.
And if someone wants to make an army of Royal Bodygaurds, let them, they will lose badly. Even all Royal Infantry, if there was such.
Sorry, I meant to say 2 there, not 20.

The point is not that the entire army will be made up of royal BGs, but that every army will have a strong heavy cav element made up purely of RBG that they built. Besides, if you make an army of them, you really shouldn't be losing. It's more than possible, in fact it's easy to win with nothing but heavy cavalry. It's not like the AI can adapt to you doing this and make lots of anti cav or horse archers.

EEUURAAH.

[sprucemoose]

Is it correct that the danes cant build royal bodygaurds?

[BDC]

I don't think they can.... Is anyone else having the bug that when people die on the field their corpses disappear? Makes working out casulties difficult. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Yelping Godzilla]

I'll check on the Danish BG situation tonight. I have an early campaign with them, so I'll just build up Denmark and try to train 'em.

I'm also having the problem with corpses not showing up. I don't find it difficult to put up with, but it is an existing bug, yeah. Seems like it's only certain units, but I can't be sure.

More importantly, as someone mentioned before (I thought it was fixed for this version) the French royalty are getting Chevaliers in Early and Destriders in High - That's the wrong way around, obviously. They can still build chevaliers in high and destriders in early, I believe, but as royals come of age they are getting the wrong era of french knight. It's a pretty major bug, because it totally throws off the power of the French. Chevaliers in early destroy /everything/.

Another random musing - The Danish can train Merc landsmen. Since they can build their own landsmen, should this be allowed? (could give the AI trouble)

EEUURAAH.

[BDC]

The Chevs are all-but indestructable. I had to let them charge a Danish Prince's bodyguard unit then flank charge them with 3 units of Raider cavalry to destroy them, there was only 20 of them at the start and it still cost me 60+ men to get them to run.

Also, custom games don't work because you can select any unit around at the time. ie French with Islamic units.

[WesW]

Regarding Royal Bodyguards:
This is interesting- the bug is in CA's unit compiler, or whatever the term is for the program that reads the units text. It seems to only read whether or not the unit is a bodyguard, and then assigns them by the order in which they appear in the units text, ignoring any era restrictions. Thus, the only reason the normal Royal Knights appear in the right era is because the eras appear alphabetically- E, H, L, and that was the order that they were coded into the original units text.
I haven't tested to see what happens when you only assign two bodyguard units, or if you assign multiple, regular (buildable) units but with no era restrictions.
This could actually be an advantage now that we know how it works, because you wouldn't have to restrict the Destriders, etc. to one era.

And no, the Danes can't build their bg units. I guess this would keep them from replenishing princes' units, though.

In light of this recent finding about how the bodyguards are assigned, I am leaning towards scrapping the whole concept of special, non-regular bodyguards. Making them regular units would allow for more faction specialization, allow for easier replenishment, make things simpler for the AI, eliminate the need for them to be available everywhere in order to replenish, and eliminate the possibility of flooding the game with them and thus measures like the two turns to build that try and combat the flooding.

Custom games don't work yet because the faction restrictions will have to be entered by hand for all the units, and I haven't gotten around to that, yet. Having most everything available to everyone has actually been very helpful for checking out textures, names and pics.

I'm not sure what to do about the disappearing corpses. I haven't been updating the deadpage coord text, but then I thought all it did was specify the area that the body appeared in. I may go through later and get it up to date. However, I noticed in my last battle that the bodies of the Royal Khazar Cav didn't show up, and I haven't changed anything about their textures.

As for merc landsmenn- it shouldn't give any more trouble than for any other faction. If the AI is building mercs when it doesn't really need them, then the whole concept will have to be re-thought, since the mercs cost 50% more than normal troops.

I had set the priority of some of the regional cav to near zero for barbarian raiders, but this might not work as a concept. Some of the minor factions are going to be Pagans like the Mongols. I'll look at this in detail later and figure something out.
It's a pain to allow a unit to all but one faction, because the only way to code it is to allow the unit to all other factions, which means making a list of every other faction. The Mongol-only units should have a higher priority and lower building requirements than any comparable regular unit, so I wouldn't think it would be a big problem.

I had forgotten that the Novgorods weren't normally a major faction, and thus that CA might not have given them offices when they fixed the other, previously minor factions for VI.

[Dukezer0]

Yo Wes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Tested the english and noticed only one prob that came to my attention.

Gallowglasses appear twice on the unit production screen (one that you produce and one that replace vikings). Also, northunbria has a +1 valour bonus for them but there is no mercenery (trade goods), therefore no inn, therefore no gallowglasses.

Secondly, they are the same power as highland clansmen (appart from the armour piercing) but not buildable in the early http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif . There needs to be a distinction between the two IMO. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Bonnachts were slightly too cheap (upkeep) relative to their power (though they are shadowed in high era).

On a broader note, woodsmen seem to be overpowering, even in high era. They lay to waste spearmen and even flanking royal knights have trouble. One time they went against a unit of billmen with 2 more valour than they and routed them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif . Just an opinion.

Anything else... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif , ah yes, the pope is slightly too agressive. It is more fun i guess but a pisser if (like me) you like to never get excommed.

BTW, i don't know if you've changed any of the above coz i don't have 3.03, your website obviously has temper tantrums http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif .

Well, now off to test the swiss and let me know if its useless posting feedback about the first beta.

CYA, DZ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Yelping Godzilla]

Slighty Scary Idea

One of the most important things to be considered with the v3 medmod was always that the vast number of new units could be quite confusing. Particularly to the large number of people who haven't been following the progress of the mod here on the forums. There are a lot of steps that have been taken to ensure that when you read 'Knights of Hidalgo' you'll know intuitively that you're dealing with essentially a renamed MTW Feudal Knights. Same graphics, specific entries in the descriptions etc

While doing research to write the description file and during the initial stages of the mod, I (and others I'm sure) ran into DBM army lists. DBM being a popular medieval tabletop game. A lot of the army lists were pretty useful, but one thing that confused me somewhat was the codes used to denote different types of unit. For example Bd for blade, Kn for knight - I think these codes were also combined with numbers to denote other properties of the unit.

I was just thinking about how this might work with Medmod and the problem of people having to learn what all the new units do. Of course the details of the units are included in the description and the 'strong charge', 'good attack' style messages that can be seen both in the description scroll and also pre-battle. But it might be useful to have a general code, always visible which tells you roughly what the unit is.

What I came up with is similar to the way DBM does things, but not the same. Every unit has a simple code added to the start of their name. The code consists of two parts: First a two letter unit type code, secondly a number representing the quality of the unit as compared to other units matching the type.

For example Lancers might be 'Kn3 Lancers', because they are knights (typically high stats, heavy charge cav, armoured, very high morale, impetuous) and are very high quality, perhaps the best knights available. Gothic Knights would also be Kn3, because they are knights and they are also very high quality. Now the two units are not the same in terms of stats and special properties (as far as I know), but they are comparable advanced knights. Feudal knights would be Kn1, Chivalric Kn2 and Hungarian Nobles would be Kn0 - they are knights, rather than just ordinary cavalry, because they have knight style properties. However they are low quality knights, statistically worse than feudals.

You get the idea, but just to give you another example:-

Ha for horse archers.
Ha1 Horse Archers
Ha2 Turcoman Horse
Ha3 Szekely
Ha4 Mongol horse archers

Now if the idea of having the codes in the actual unit name is too intrusive, then the code could simply be put at the start of every description. This would actually benefit descriptions, because I could concentrate more on history and flavour, rather than belaboring the relative power of the unit. Of course I'd still talk about quality, arms and armour, comparisons etc but I wouldn't have to be so explicit. There would be no need for specific references to old MTW units either.

What do you think of the idea? I reckon it could work and wouldn't really require that much of an effort to implement. Additionally it would help talk about and suggest alterations to the mod, because you could simply say you think that unit XYZ should be a Kn2 unit, rather than a Kn1 or perhaps a HC3 (heavy cav 3).

Just a slightly scary idea. Whoooooh. Ahem. I've been watching horror B-Movies latly. Apologies.

EEUURAAH.

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (Yelping Godzilla @ Aug. 26 2003,08:16)]What do you think of the idea? I reckon it could work and wouldn't really require that much of an effort to implement.
I like the idea, but i would include it in the description, not the unit name. A simple listing of the unit stats would also be helpful for newbies. example: HA3(4,4,2,3,4,BOW) for byzantine cav.

[Yelping Godzilla]

You're probably right that it can't really go in the unit names. Although it would allow you to see it at any point, I think it would simply be too intrusive. I kinda hold the same opinion of putting actual stats is - they take up precious description space and they would be more intrusive than just a three character code.

I'll tell you what, I'll write a list in this post, editing it as I go along and even if WesW doesn't like the idea, I can always make it myself as an addon feature.

Code Idea - Edited when needed

The types.

Kn - Knight
Ha - Horse Archer
Sp - Spear Infantry
Bw - Bowmen
Pk - Pikemen
Hb - Halberdiers
Mi - Main Infantry
Hc - Heavy Cav
Lc - Light Cav
Ar - Mechanical Artillery
Cn - Gunpowder Artillery
Gp - Gunpowder Infantry
Ji - Jav Infantry

Knights: Pretty obvious. Greater noble heavy cavalry.
Horse Archers: Includes crossbows and hybrids like Czeladz, Vardariots.
Spear Infantry: Basic spearmen up to Gothic sergeants.
Bowmen: Includes crossbows and hybrids like Ottoman inf, futawwa. Number usually represents unit quality rather than bow type.
Pikemen: Anything pike in nature.
Halberdiers: Cav killing polearms. Not urban militia.
Main Infantry: AKA Medium infantry. Any infantry not fitting other types.
Heavy Cav: Usually lesser nobles and Lancer cav.
Light Cav: Includes javcav, steppe cav etc note that high number Lc might beat low number Hc.
Mechanical Arty: Rock/Bolt/Bomb flingers.
Gunpowder Arty: Cannons baby
Gunpowder Infantry: Includes Naptha throwers.
Jav Infantry: Pretty obvious. Spear/jav guys might be in Spear Infantry though.

Suggestions questions so far?

EEUURAAH.

[BDC]

I like it, would make it a lot simpler... I get confused by complex names. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[WesW]

You can try this if you want to, but I don't think it is going to simplify things all that much. I know the mod's unit stats better than anyone, I assume, and there are simply too many things to consider, imo. I think you have over a dozen categories listed already, and I am coding units that blur the lines between categories more than ever.

I think that the standard unit put into the description will be the best way to go, since everyone playing the mod should know what they mean. I have been using the same system in the mod description text, with specific listings of any statistical differences.
For the 1.85 mod, I strongly suggested that people print out the excel unit stats sheet, and I have set up the current system so that people can glance at that and use either the unit description or the mod description text and know the exact stats of a unit.
I have gradually been adding units to the stats sheet that don't closely resemble existing units, along with the VC units, and by the time I release the mod publicly the spreadsheet will be fully updated. For example, I updated the Muslim units to reflect the changes I have made to the units in the last two nights, and they have been expansive changes.

I will post the updated mod description text when I post the new beta, probably sometime tomorrow. It will be a good way of seeing all the changes. I have gradually been re-working the mod's concepts over the course of the betas, so many things will be new or significantly altered for those of you who haven't been reading it each time.
Here are the specific changes, from a letter I sent YG a couple hours ago. I guess I need to preface this by saying that I have decided to get rid of the Royal Bodyguards concept and use regular units. I also decided to get rid of the buildable mercs, except for the Germanic Kns and the two pike units. This freed up a bunch of units, which I used in a variety of ways.

"I'll look at the thread a little later. Most of the changes to descriptions will simply be switching them from one unit to another. I have used the former bodyguards and mercs to make some new units. There were so many changes that I am going to post the list below along with the new description text and tell everyone to scan it, since the changes were all over the place.
I converted the merc Gallows to Claymores, which are early-only unarmoured Gallows.
I changed the Heerban back to Vikings, using the Housecarle (old Viking) files.
I moved the Jobbagy to the Russians and converted them into upgraded versions of the Slav Warriors.
I used the Saxon Huscarles to make Saxon MAA, with the same stats as the original VC unit. They will be the High era upgrade of the Heerban.
I switched some of the Italian units around in eras, and I converted the Italian MAA to Italian Hvy Infantry. This unit combines Gothic Spearmen with Halbardiers to get a truely hybrid, 80-man unit with the benefits of a large shield and axes, with cav bonuses of 2 and 3.
I eliminated the Merc Hosp units and gave them to the Crusader Kingdoms.
I took the Norman Kns away from the Sicilians and replaced them with the Royal Cavalry units.
I used the Early Royal Cav unit to make an Outremer Teutonic Sgt. unit.
I took the Late Royal Huscarle unit and used it to make the new Outremer Infantry, which is an armoured Viking.
I took the old Outremer Sgts and made them Feudal Sgts., called Outremer Spearmen.
I reduced the Turcopole to Horse Archers with +1 attack and defense, but I made them a 60-man unit that dismounts to Turcoman Foot for when you need somemore archers.
I took the Early Royal Foot Kns, which I was using as the early Danish bg unit, and gave it to the Spanish for the Spanish Militia. I then switched them and the Early Foot Kns because their sprites were more suited to the other unit.
I took the Arab Infantry and gave it back to the Muslims. It is now the early era infantry for the Almohads and Egyptians.
I took the bow from the Ottoman Inf. and gave them armour and a large shield. They can now be the Turkish early era infantry. This gives each Muslim faction both an infantry and a bow hybrid unit. This should help the AI, since it doesn't usually use hybrid units well. Now the hybrids will not be needed as the main melee unit.
I took some defense and armour from the Nizari, added some charge, and gave them back their old textures so that they look like a Muslim again.
I altered the Dismounted Faris is mirror the new Nizari stats of 6,4,2,2,4 for charge thru morale.
The Muwahid Foot and Ghazi join the former Muslim bodyguard units and the two Faris as Jihad-only units. Jihads have been increased to 2000 and 5 yrs.

The net results of all this are the elimination of the oddities of the Merc Hosp units and the Norman Kns in Sicily, plus most of the buildable merc units. Some factions get additional units to fill holes in their lineups, while some Muslim units go back to more of their original look and stats. Other Muslim units get drafted for the new Jihad lineup, which should make those movements much more powerful.
Finally, the Crusader Kingdoms, and the crusading factions which may use their units, have much more to choose from. I am anticipating some epic battles over control of the Holylands now, with Jihads and the Crusader Kingdoms potentially much stronger to accompany the strengthened Crusades."

[Hamburglar]

I agree with Wes that I don't think we should add prefixes in front of the unit names. Admittedly it would help with identification but I just don't think its really needed for people that didn't follow the thread.

I mean, everyone that just plugged in MTW for the first time had no idea what things really were. No stats were listed and there wasn't any real comparison of units so people would know "whats better than what". It's for the player to find out. I think with these new units it is still pretty easy to know their capabilities. Read their description and fight with them and against them - then you'll know.

In essence, it adds to the realism. Back in medieval times unless a country had faced those types of troops before, they really wouldn't have any idea of the enemy troops capabilities - they had to learn it the hard way and i think it adds to the experience for the player to do that too.


I know I learned the hard way that Mongol Horse Archers aren't just "regular horse archers with a fancy name"

[Yelping Godzilla]

I'm really thinking of putting it in the start of the description now. Since Wes isn't too keen, I'll probably wind up doing it as an unpopular addon ;]

Meanwhile, lots of description work.

EEUURAAH.