View Full Version : Ahhhhh..Need advice on how to play turks
Revenant69
08-27-2003, 20:28
Hello guys/girls.
I just started a single player VI campaign as the Turks (Early, Expert). Things went well at first - I steamroled over Egyptians, well not quite but they did not put up much of a fight against my mercenary armies. Egyptians were wiped out in like 10-15 years. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
I used the next 10 years to improve my abysmal infrastructure. I was the richest with the income of around 4500 florins a year, which allowed me to bribe two nice armies in Khazar. Naturally my eyes turned towards my remaining competitor - the Byzantines.
I have prepared a nice invasion force of 4 armies. Half of them were mercenaries and the rest were Horse Archers, Armenian Heavy Cav, Turcoman Horses and some spears. I had plenty of siege engines too.
Needless to say I am in a world of hurt now. BIG TIME. I have not fought a battle yet where i killed more Byz guys than they killed mine. It is an absolute slaughterhouse. I lose around 400-500 troops every battle. I cant replace them fast enough and the Byzantines have huge armies everywhere. Everytime my skirmishing cavalry gets slaughtered by their alans and their HA. and then its a melee brawl which i rarely win.
The fact that Byz have insane generals is obviously evident. However i have managed to kill some off. Their evil Jedi 7 star king is about to die in two years. Thats when i will make a push toward Constantinople. Currently my border regions with them are Trebizond and Anatolia.
However, I need help. Some major help on how in God's name to defeat the Byzantium war machine. My troops just seem to drop like leaves in the fall. Armenian Heavy Cav isnt performing well. I will lose this war if they keep killing these insane numbers of troops.
PLZ I need advice on how to defeat the Byz and on how to build Early Turk armies.
Thanks in advance,
Rev
Only advice I can think regarding the Byzantines is strike early and strike fast. Every turn you wait allows them become exponentionally more powerful. The Egyptians can wait since their power curve is no where near as steep.
Revenant69
08-27-2003, 20:58
That could explain some things because i attacked Egyptians first and 30 years later i attacked Byz. So they had 30 years of building up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
The other thing is - nobody ever accepts my aliance proposals even thou my sultan has 8 influence.
So how would you suggest i get out of this quagmire?
Did you do a search on this topic already ?
Is it possible you can zip your save game and upload or email it ?
I'd love to help. I think it'd be easiets if you uploaded the save game to the net for download. So we can see the exact situation.
Also we'll need more info, which comes easiest straight out of the game screen.
Revenant69
08-27-2003, 21:12
yeah i could upload it. Just tell me where and how.
ShaiHulud
08-27-2003, 21:25
"Some spears"?
First, get Saracen infantry, not spears. Spears are okay for fighting rebels, but, against the Byz, they're destined to find their graves quickly. The Byz infantry, alone, can chew through two at a time. Saracens, while still not the same caliber as Byz infantry, are armored and fight better against the various Byz unit types.
Second, don't commit your light cavalry to one-on-one combats if you can avoid it. That's looking for a fight. Instead, look for the advantage. Let the Byz commit their cavalry by refusing your flanks (that is, don't let them get around your flanks. They'll usually try to overwhelm a line unit then. After they're committed, THEN use your cav to get into the Byz flanks and rear. They'll suffer morale loss just by the presence of your units behind them.
Third, killing Kataphracts (AND Byz Infantry AND Varangians) IS going to be costly. Head-to-head, one-on-one, you have nothing that will defeat a Kataphract unit. Hold something in reserve to reinforce the line where the Kataphracts attack. GET SOMEONE BEHIND THEM The most likely path to this is to defeat them on one or both flanks and re-direct the freed units into the rear of the Byz units attacking your line. The good news is that the Byz don't create many Kataphract units. Most of them will be of the royal family. The bad news is they will almost always have high valor and, thus, take a lot of killing.
Don't count too heavily on the Armenian 'Heavy' Cav. (I've had an entire Armenian heavy destroyed in single combat against Trebizonds!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Better to consider them as medium cavalry. If you can hire them, get Kwarazmian's and don't weep when they die. They'll be the best you'll see for a while.
Don't get attached to any of the units you commit to battle with the Byz because most of them won't be coming back. The Byz are STRONG and losing two to one against them is the least you should anticipate.
Use armor-killing ranged weapons to target the Byz inf and kataphracts before you get hand-to-hand. Target the general with every missile weapon you have. AVOID offensive combat with their uber generals. Since you're playing at expert (as I do) you're giving your opponents an automatic morale advantage. Use tactics and terrain to take that advantage back.
I note that you're using a lot of horse archers. Maybe Seljuk can advise you on how best to employ these. The best I can offer is to force the Byz to attack you and deploy them forward to kill as many as possible before contact. Withdraw them behind the line when they're pressed, then go around the flanks to shoot again, and, ultimately, charge into the enemy's rear.
By the way, when things start to fall apart, would you rather have a seige engine or 100 more Saracens? Seige engines have no place in the line against the superior unit types the Byz can flaunt.
You didn't mention the control of the sea. Before you ever attack the Byz, you must prepare to control the Eastern Med and the Black Sea. Otherwise, you'll have to defend your entire coast.
The Turks were my favorite faction to play so I know the problems you're facing. Your losses are similar to my experience. It takes preparation to defeat the Byz and, quite possibly, you jumped them too early. Four large armies certainly SEEMED like a lot at the time, didn't it? hehehe
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
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When I started this reply there were ZERO posts after the author's Tell me I don't type THAT slow.....
Revenant69
08-27-2003, 21:36
Hey Shaihulud
You have very good points. I attacked Byz waaay too early 1105 to be exact. I have no control over the seas, so you are right i do defend my coast waters.
Problem was that when i attacked them the bastards always hid in the forest. So i tried to draw them out with my HA and Turcomans and thats why they kept getting slaughtered by their speedy alans. And EVERY time i attack them they hide in the forest so i have to lure them out one by one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
I dont have a single keep yet, so thats why i dont have Saracen Infantry. I have had similar experience with my AHC being destroyed by their Horse archers and Trebizonds. The reason i bought all those siege engines is that i thought i needed them to siege Constantinople. Hahaha but first i have to get there. Essentially i am using the units that i can produce/recruit at that time.
I guess i am just not used to this kind of carnage on my side. Playing European factions i always did well in battle, rarely losing more toops than i killed. Maybe i am just waaay over my head here - attacking Byz so early is a deadly mistake?
Oh yeah those 4 armies did look great BTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Curious thing about the turks is when (if?) they reach high era, JHI becomes available and it's the byzantines (any almost everyone else) that needs to start worrying.
Now if only CA had researched eastern archery a bit more, they might have added composite bows, nevermind.
Hi peeps
Thx Rev for emailing me the save game. i have some time right now, but the next two days I don;t have my home PC. I may be a little late in responding but maybe you could hold the Ghazi in their war tents till I can post back on Saturday. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
you can download the save game here:
Save the Turks (http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/downloads/savegames/TurksEE.zip)
Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Revenant69
08-27-2003, 22:00
Quote[/b] ]but maybe you could hold the Ghazi in their war tents till I can post back on Saturday
Hahaha I will try -although i may be tempted to get my remaining 2 armies destroyed by the Byzantine KaTanks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
PS Thanks for posting the savegame.
ShaiHulud
08-27-2003, 22:20
I can also point out that, by controlling the Med, you'll isolate the Byz islands. This causes a big loss in loyalty there and even revolts. Needless to say, any revolt and loss of control in those islands hurts the Byz, not to mention, isolates any forces on those islands. Further, where would the Byz build new ships to replace their losses? Constantinople Better they should build ships there than anything else.
Despite your losses, your position doesn't sound too bad. Turkey and Egypt have vast wealth to draw upon. You should be able to field a goodly force, still. Be judicious in choosing merc hires. They're fine when you're plush but they suck up a LOT of gold. With trade lost (through lack of sea control) it gets harder to pay what you have and still raise new troops. Too bad you took Khazar early. That, Crimea, and Kiev provide good trade income when you have sea control to the homeland. Beyond that, if you allowed the Byz to take Khazar, those forces would be under constant pressure from rebels AND cutoff (through loss of sea control.
With the Byz defending Constantinople and Nicea, you've already taken some goodly territories from them. Don't be afraid to pull back to a more defensible line. Control the seas, consolidate your forces, and, if necessary, let the Byz force you back to Rum. From Rum (or Trebizond) you'll threaten a number of provinces, which the Byz will either defend in force (avoid!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif or weakly (attack!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. Use Fabian tactics and keep the Byz from consolidating. Overwhelm smaller armies, avoid offensive battles against large ones.
As for their uber generals, when the Allied armies defeated Napoleon, they started by NOT facing Napoleon, but, his lesser generals. By pushing the Byz into a short front, you've practically guaranteed that you'll face a good general. Again, use control of the seas to force the Byz to garrison everything they own. Without that, they can strip the islands and Greece and Bulgaria to create a large force on a small front.
Lastly, it's unlikely you'll get anyone to ally with you WHILE your at war with the Byz. Anyway, alliances are practically worthless. They desert you when a war starts or offer alliance when they're being pounded by someone else. All I care about is neutrality, to keep the trade income going.
HopAlongBunny
08-27-2003, 23:13
You actually look in pretty good shape http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
ShaiHulud's advice sounds pretty complete; avoid contact with the king (expert defender? ouch ) You may want to try hit and run; send all HA armies against stacks, avoid combat (and archers) and just pick off any units you can split out. Don't use any valuable generals for this because you retreat a lot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif If you get really lucky you can bag a general.
Looks like you need to play a bit of a waiting game til you replenish your forces. Get some Ghazi's the fire and forget troops of the muslim factions. You should have Saracen's soon too for holding and hitting the Kats.
Nice posts Shai.
I just played a bit very quick and rushed. It's not irreversible at all. In fact you can beat the barney right out of Nicea, whether you should or not is a different story. Just for the sake of a test battle I did kick em out of Nicea and proceeded to attack Constantinople. They gave up Nicea without a fight. I fought a battle at Constantinople which I lost. My first impression is that you have too many AHC and not enough Turcomans. Anyway I hope I can post in more detail later. I lost the battle, but the point was actually to have a replay of how to use the Turks. SO I had not actually intended on winning (although that would have been nice). In the end the barney lost 661 and I lost 300 or so.
Orhan. His army is much weaker than opposing army. NP though that is where mobility comes in.
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/saveturks1.jpg
First Blood. Isolate and attack.
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/saveturks2.jpg
After the initial charge pull back and charge again, and again.
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/saveturks3.jpg
Using mobility you can change direction and strike unguarded units.
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/saveturks4.jpg
This way Trabzon archers have no chance.
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/saveturks5.jpg
In the end game the reamining Byzantines troops are spread across the map, easy prey for fresh or rested Turcoman, if you have any.
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/saveturks6.jpg
In this game the AI led the battle, I just allowed it to move at me and kept splitting my forces to make him split his. Sorry about the pic quality, very low on time. Hope you like em though.
You can download the replay here. Again it's not a victory but the same principles can be applied, with a bit more concentration http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif than I use in this replay, you can win.
Turk Cavalry - Quick Example (http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/downloads/mtwreplays/turkcavalrypart1.vrp)
The Katas should really have been taken care of first. I hope to give an example of how to do that later http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I'd also like to direct you to this thread:
Imperfections of faction units in MTW (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=6420;st=125;r=1;&#entry147958)
It's a bit long but some interesting points are made there, and it's also one of my favorite threads http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Will post some more as soon as I have some time. Cheers all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Judging by the way MTW just crashed, can I assume that save is for MTW 2.0?
The save game and the replay are for V2.0 Viking Invasion.
I think the replay should work on V1.1, but you have to change the file extension from .vrp to .mrp
I can't remember any workaround for the save game though.
Bravo. Most impressive Seljuk. Your tactics exploit the AI to the fullest. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
However your tactics also expose the AI's most glaring weakness; it's inability to fight anything but a conventional battle where both forces are deployed in a decidedly orthodox manner. To use these these tactics against a human opponent is one thing but to take on the AI in this manner seems rather unfair and extremely detached from that nebulous zone we like to call 'historical reality'. I would much prefer to mod the game and up the ammo count of all mounted archer units so that they can better mimic the performance of their real life counterparts without having to use them in a psycho-ninja-cavalry-master display of flanking and charging.
I just checked out ur save game, i managed to wipe out half the byzantines large armies on ur borders and destroy a big part of their economy in 2 turns. First off i attacked constantinople with absolutely everything i could spare from trebizond, the byzantines reinforced from nicea but retreated to bulgaria leaving nicea isolated. I then destroyed all structures in constantinople(Worth about 5000 Florins) and used all forces bordering nicea to invade and detroy the isolated army. After that there was only a minor rebellion in trebizond to deal with.
Revenant69
08-28-2003, 03:14
SuicidalAibo the question is not about razing Constantinople to the ground - quite the opposite actually. I want tto make sure that Istanbul is going to be the greatest city on earth. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Besides, Byzantines have alot of reinforcements that they can drop in anywhere because of their navy. And i have NO navy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
It may be possible to destroy those two armies in Nicea and Constantinople but at what price? If you noticed half of my army is mercenaries and I dont have many good troop producing provinces. I cant afford to win Pyrrhic victories time and time again.
Oh well, gotta go watch Seljuk's replay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Revenant69
08-28-2003, 06:17
Ok. The initial shock is beginning to wear off. I started thinking and i realized partly why i was panicking so much. So here is what i think:
I played European factions alot. I got used to their style of play. You know, like building balanced armies of infantry cavalry etc. My style of play involves outmanuevering the enemy army then peppering them with arrows while my cavalry flanks - and then promptly destroying them in melee. So i rarely lose more troops than the AI does. Needless to say i got quite a rude awakening in this Turkish campaign.
Problem is, my European armies never had more than 4 cavalry units. SeljukSinan your replay is the perfect example of why i am having such a hard time playing turks right now. I am simply not used to controlling an all cavalry army. I can manage few cavalry units quite well (See this thread )Mounted Crossbowmen (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=10226)
I did learn quite abit from that replay. So for that (and all your help) i thank you SeljukSinan. You are truly a master of cavalry armies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I just dont know if i can micromanage that many cavalry units at once. Do you pause alot when you do it?
The other thing is, you have mentioned that i didnt have enough Turcoman Horse. Well I deemed them useless, they are just tougher HA. But now i see the error of my ways.
It will probably take me awhile to get used to using lots of cavalry in my armies. But i will give it my best try. I want to continue playing that campaign and see if i can save it. Turks are definitely an interesting faction to play.
Please keep more advices and tactics coming. I love learning new stuff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Thanks,
Rev
sorry... im definately a SCORCED EARTH kinda guy. when im in ur situation i just attack everywhere but keep calling of attacks untill I got their armies out of position then destroy everything i can http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
TheViking
08-28-2003, 14:01
this is how i defeated the byz as the turcs after finishing of the egypts first:
i also made heavy losses when fighting the byz many times 1-3 and even 1-4.
so ofcus i had many reinforcements units, both when defending and attacking.
i always putt or walked away with my gen to one of the edges behind my battle line and set up the reinforce flag with him.
the enemy attacked my army killing mostly all or almost all, my men ran in all directions and the enemy split up his forces to run after them and when my reinforcement arrived the enemy was so split up it was easier to take them out. as proven above.
the units i used most as first wave was spears, only before i could or couldnt afford the sarracens and muwahid units, backed up with those grenade throwing units, dont remember name, they did they part of taking out many VG and Kataphraktois, i also used many archers behind that so i could shoot down the enemy.
units i never used was siege units and mercs, they are not cost effective
Dwimmerlaik
08-28-2003, 14:53
I find a concentrated strike towards Constantinople early in the game works wonders...once you have Constantinople with its advanced troop production facilities and income you are in a great position to pick off the other Byz territories at will or even turn on Egypt and secure another huge source of wealth...with both birdies in hand you are well on your way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Hey Rev. NP at all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Well now I am limited to my work PC (sans MTW) till Saturday http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif anyway at that stage I'll post up some replays and stuff on how to handle the VG and the Katanks.
Just wanted to tell you a bit about my playing style. This will help you understand why I use more Turcoman than AHC. Primarily I appreciate some sort of reasonably, vaguely accurate game. In the historical references to the Ottomans (various sources) almost 60-70% of Ottoman armies may be Turcoman. The Seljuk also employed these combatants effectively. So I prefer to set up my armies depending on two things:
-The mission (overall campaign objective)
-Historically vaguely accurate composition of the army
Before I start the game I open up a new campaign and do a .matteosartori. to see the whole map. Then I take a screenshot of different theaters of operation, open the screenie in Paintshop and draw in my lines of attack, etc. The theaters change as the game progresses. For example the last game I played as the Turks, I split the regions into the following (from memory):
Early Expansion
-Devlet (Homeland) --> Turkish peninsula till Constantinople. The Byzantines may live on the other side of the Bosporus (for now), but not East of the waterway.
-Eastern: This is a naval theater of operation regions with coastline to Holy Lands and Egypt.
-Central: Also exclusive to navy, stretches from the Bosporus to the Adriatic
-Al Arabi --> Antioch to Arabia to Egypt
Later in the game I add in more theaters. basically I like to have a plan and then execute the plan. If something interesting happens, I change the plan, otherwise I play the game from a top down strategy to tactics level.
For the Devlet theater, I then build up my campaign plan. You can see an example of this in the other thread by Shai on what army compositions you use. I believe that Trabzon is the most strategically important area of the homeland. From here you can control almost all the regions in this area. then, as you can see in the other thread, I make up the armies and sit tight till I am ready to go. At this stage the attack begins. I believe the best is to attack the Byz first and then the Egyptians. Although the Egyptians seem an easy target. Attacking them first allows the Byzantines to build up their force even stronger. Leaving the Egyptians alone for a while may just stave off a two front war until the Byzantines are west of the Bosporus. Constantinople is next the next target for Turks IMO, afetr Trabzon, since this effectively cuts off any reinforcement from the West to the homeland. The remaining Byz troops in the himeland can be picked off at will. Also Constantinople is the major Byz troop producer, taking this area means the Byz are effectuvely handicapped. Lastly the Citadel in Constantinople assures that Janissary Heavy Infantry can be available before the Mongols arrive (heheh you forget them did't ya ?)
Out of time again..till the next time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif : pat: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Judging from the savegame you have no trouble at all,just don't be too ambitious. You have a steady economy, hold back those byzantines at your western front as long as you can. Move in to russia instead, and build the facilities to build druznian cavalry, their anti armour bonus will chew up the kwazzies. Upgrade your horse breeder to a guild, to benefit from a +1 valour bonus for your AHC
Revenant69
08-28-2003, 19:13
Quote[/b] ]I find a concentrated strike towards Constantinople early in the game works wonders...once you have Constantinople with its advanced troop production facilities and income you are in a great position to pick off the other Byz territories at will
Yeah that was my original idea too. Thats why i bought all those mercenary siege engines. If i do manage to take Constantinople it means Byz won't have their best troop producing province and i will have it. So it will hurt them tremendously.
Fragony, I am pretty sure that you need a Master Horse Breeder to get another +1 valor bonus on AHC. So that way AHC coming out of armenia will have 2 starting valor.
Seljuk I will try to use your tactics and see if i can implement them. I am just not sure if i can micromanage hordes of cavalry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif We shall see.
PS Keep more tactics coming http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
08-28-2003, 19:33
Bah you can do it
Reading how you handled the Hord in the PBM Tzars campaign, I am sure this is going to be easy... Even if it looks like you defeated the Hord using mainly footies, and now you got to the opposite http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Louis,
I think you have a superb position and you should have no long term problems at all. I agree with the others that you should get saracens ASAP, but otherwise the situation is very promising. In fact I took all the forces you have in Trebizond + 2 more AHC and moved into Constantinaple just to provoke some fight http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif As expected the byzantines moved back 1 stack with their best general, but to my utter amazement they retreated into Bulgaria without offering a battle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif They abandoned the province completely Thus I conquered Constantinaple without raising my sword. The downside of the story is that I got a revolt in Trebizond http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif but that is not serious it consists only 2 archers and 2 urban militias, there are plenty of AHCs around Trebizond, should be no problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Revenant69
08-29-2003, 00:31
Holy Jebus I just found this great website .ShadesWolf's Site (http://www.shadesmtw.com/)
by ShadesWolf and it had all kinds of Turkish strategies. Moreover, it had the Turkish Cavalry Tutorial by SeljukSinan. I have uploaded the tutorial to my newly created webpage at geocities (once again thanks to Seljuk). Here it is: SeljukSinan's Cavalry Tutorials (http://www.geocities.com/xrevenant69x/mtw/TurkCavalryTacticsSP.zip)
I must say Seljuk you are one good user of cavalry. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I watched the replays and seen how those lowly Turcoman Horses insta-routed a unit of VG. Man that was awesome. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I am sorry but i can no longer hold the Ghazi's in their tents. Their thirst for blood is overwhelming. If they are not released at the Byzantines they will surely kill their general (me). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I think I have been given enough advice by everyone here (for which i thank you all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif ) to attempt the seemingly impossible and crush The Byzzies.
Quote[/b] ]Bah you can do it
Reading how you handled the Hord in the PBM Tzars campaign, I am sure this is going to be easy... Even if it looks like you defeated the Hord using mainly footies, and now you got to the opposite
Thank you Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe for the vote of confidence. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
*Runs off to command the ever eager Ghazi's*
PS Seljuk, in those replays you had 1 soldier running away from the field of battle (twice). You shoulda let him go so that he could tell his fellas about the slaughter. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
PPS I almost wish that this thread is gonna be stickied. How many more people are going to have the same adjustment problem, going from European style of warfare to Eeastern Cavalry Horde type warfare?
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
08-29-2003, 00:45
The funny thing with Turks is that you will go throught another 'adjustment problem' in the High era. Many new interesting units with a very good potential are likely to change your Turk army from a 50 % Turco / 50 % AHC (was my personnal favorite) in early to.... something else http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
And you better adapt, cause the Hord is coming And even if AI is not great, it can be actually quite good at controlling 16 cav simultanously (still sending them in wood unfortunately but well, at least the 16 cav moves nicely together sometimes).
Without pause, on a steppe, AI might be more fluid, but hopefully less tactically apt...
Good luck and let us know how it goes You shall write about it
Louis,
karmastray
08-29-2003, 05:58
Nobody here likes the Futuwwa? I love those guys, they're my favorite skirmisher until the Janissary Infantry starts to trickle outta the military academy They seem to be good bowmen, and they make a good counterforce to hit the sides of spearmen/sergeants. You just gotta be a little careful with 'em is all, they seem a little fragile (though not as bad as the ghazi ). But once you nurse a couple units of them through some battles and they rise in valor then they are a force to be reckoned with (although if you see cavalry bearing down on them, have them run home to mama). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Hey Rev http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif NP at all, glad I could help. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Hmm well that is why I asked in the beginning if you did a search, coz I remembered a few few threads on this. Thankfully Wolfie saved some of em. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Actually Magyar Khan, IMO is the probably one of the best, or the best swarming, horse archery and steppe enveloppment generals around. If you go to the main page of the org, there is a link to his clan site --> The Wolves. There you can dl some more all cav replays, they are multiplayer though. I may have some of getting a butt whopping, meself. I'll see if I can find em. I got my PC today so later I can post some more stuff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Revenant69
08-29-2003, 15:52
Kool, Thanks Seljuk. I did a battle yesterday and oh man was it ever bloody http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I could post the details if you guys want.
Anyhow, plz tell me how you control all those cavalry scattered across the map. Cuz it wasnt easy when i did it.
I'll go check out that site now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Hey Rev
Basically against a human player it is easier since he cannot usually react fast enough and cannot always anticipate your multiple strikes. The AI has an "unfair" (not that I care) advantage that it can control all units simultaneously and is omnipotent over the WHOLE map. It can see all units and you can't. Now I almost never pause the game because of my Multiplayer history. I used to pause a lot in the beginning, but then I played multiplayer and proceeded to get my butt handed to me, since I was always looking for the pause key. So since then I stopped using the pause key UNLESS REALLY I don't know what is happening and I am losing control. However I encourage you to pause if you are losing control and take you time to survey the field and give orders and then unpause. It's not unfair or cheesy because the AI has an advantage over you, it is not as smart as you but it can control everything AT THE SAME TIME; you can't. So till you get used to this discrpancy of command ability you should pause the game. Once you can defeat the AI without pausing the game and using swarming tactics, you are in a good position.
Also it's not unfair to swarm the AI since the Turk troops are unreasonably weak in comparison to the over glorified Byzantines. It is a historical tactic used by the Mongols, later used by the Turks (who have a direct link and lineage from the Mongols). The Turks also used these tactics before their own state was carved out of Byzantium. The Uz, Kipchak and other central Asian Turks employed the same (or very similar) tactics as the Mongols.
Later the Mamlukes (slave soldiers mostly from Central Asia, but also Africa, in service of the Egyptian Sultan) also employed the same tactics against the Mongols themselves at the Battle of Ain Jalut. In this battle the Mamluke Royal Guard led by Qutuz lured Kitboga (Mongol Commander in charge of defending Syria) into a trap. The Mongol commander's closest units and his own were surrounded by the Mamluke Royal Guard and annhilated, Kitboga was killed.
The Turks incorporated made a unit specifically for this purpose, the akinci. Composed mostly of hardened by steppe life Turcoman the akici were advance raiders. Historical research suggests that they were not at all peasantry on horses, but very capable warriors. At the Battle of Malazgirt the Turcoman annihilated the Katanks in hand to hand combat. This is a "touchy" battle though and both the Turks and the Greeks have funny versions of what happened. Most cry that the Turks won becuase the Turkic tribesmen allied to the Byzantines (e.g Uz) defected, and becuase a senior commander responsible for the rear guard defected. Whatever the case is the fact is that the Turcoman surrounded, and once done with arrows, closed in, overwhelmed the Katanks and defeated them in melee . This is not the first nor the final incident in history till about 1596, where the Turcoman proved their battle skill against superior trained, better armed and armored, and better disciplined forces.
Revenant69
08-29-2003, 16:23
Man you fight without using pause key? Ouch, I feel noobish now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif At the same time thou I have not played multiplayer so i guess i am not used to super fast reaction. Thats one of the reasons i hated RTS's cuz they were just overglorified clickfests. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Back on topic, as i mentioned i tried using your tactics from the replays to crush a Byzz armie in Nicea. It was an absolute slaughter-fest. Their Byz infantry refused to rout even hen surrounded on all 4 sides. And those Katanks are sooo evil.
HINT
I dont know if anyone knows this (if you do then plz tell me that you did), but there is a way to "speed" fly to your unit.
Essentially, what you do is you click on the unit on the battlemap that you wanna fly to. Now, usually if the unit is far away it will take forever to fly over to it. So what you do is this: you click on the unit in question, camera begins to fly over to it, then slightly shake your mouse to the sides of the monitor - this way you will be automatically taken to that unit. Kind of helps in tight situations - it may be really helpful in Multiplayer, who knows.
Rev it does not matter, just use pause if you are losing control. Progressively you will use it less and less, and eventually you won't have a problem without it. Actually after some battles with the pause key you should try to use it less and less, if you want to ofc.
If you double click the unit in control panel at bottom of the screen and then click one of the arrow keys the camera will jump to that unit. (EDIT LOL you already told me that, sorry I misunderstood http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )
I have my camera speed set to about 80-85% of maximum so I usually can rush the camera to the spot very fast.
Also if you want to you can click you VI shortcut on your desktop, then right click, then go properties and then add the following to the target "-ian" If you do this your camera becomes TOTALLY unlocked and you can fly about 150 feet over the battlefield and see the whole field. Most MP players use this now (from what I understand), I still don't but have tried it and it is really cool, specially for wacthing replays.
I will post a strategy for you by tomorrow Saturday, finally, and more tips if I can think of any. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
HEY btw it would be historically unsound (i guess) but you could churm out some Bedouin Camels from Arabia, Syria, Sinai and add 4-5 of em into each strike army. That will make the Katanks easier, bt you will still have wear them down with arrows, make em tired chasing faster Turcos, and then swarm em.
PS: by the time the Mongols arrive you may be going more infantry heavy....think Janissary Heavy Infantry
You can switch between slow and fast camera move using the CAPS LOCK key. The default is slow.
About cav heavy armies. You really dont have to swarm all over the map with your cavalry, that is very difficult. To the contrary, try to keep your cavalry together. The idea is that you have to split your opponent and then pick the enemy units one by one with your cavalry. Of course, somehow you have to make the AI to split forces. Either use cav archers, or sacrifice some of your infantry, that is, put a "dummy" army in front of the AI, wait till the AI commits its best troops against this dummy army and then hit the rear with your main cav forces.
Revenant69
08-29-2003, 16:58
Quote[/b] ] put a "dummy" army in front of the AI, wait till the AI commits its best troops against this dummy army and then hit the rear with your main cav forces.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif YEp thats what i tried doing in Nicea. Kind of worked.
Revenant69
09-04-2003, 18:11
Ok this is an update on the current situation in my campaign (for those who are interested http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). Things were going really well for a long time unitl i hit the year 1190 or so. thats when English and French decided to send crusades at me. No biggie, since they were too scared to cross into my borders and eventually started to dvindle away.
However about 15 years later i am in big trouble. The Medieval Total War has happened indeed. Every faction (except the Danes and Russians) is at war. Unfortunately English, French, Sicilians, Italians and Spanish are at war with me - i call it the Great Iberian War. Spanish got wiped out shortly as they were fighting English as well. Needless to say my navy can barely hold off my enemies combined navies and this means some of my provinces begin to revolt. I see that i am about to lose Navarre to revolt so i retreat my army into Castile. Well thats when Aragonese reappear in Navarre and are immediately at war with me. So i am back to being at war with 5 factions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
I am losing around 1000-2000 soldiers every turn and i am not kidding here. Granted, this time i inflict far superior casualties onto my enemies. If it wasnt for mercenaries i would have long lost the war. The provinces in the Iberian peninsula are constantly changing hands- thank god I have Jihads trained everywhere http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It is one of the most hairraising experiences i have had so far in MTW. Massive battles every turn. I show NO MERCY to my enemies and all of them are put to the sword.
The 5 full stacks of uber-elite Aragonese troops in Navarre bother me. I think i shall send out assassins to kill their dufus imposter king and then "hire" those armies to work for me. Oh yeah thats another thing, because all my trade has collapsed i make far less money now. Alhough i think 450k warchest should last for abit (i still have positive income).
Oh yeah one other important factor is this. The year is 1208 and the Horde is not far away. Being at war with 6 factions and one of them being the Horde would be really really hard. As it is 80% of my provinces train troops nonstop, the other 20% train agents and ships. This is a total mobilisation here. It is really fun. If you wanna see what i mean then i could mail you the save game or upload it somehow or something.
If it wasnt for the things i learned from your replies guys i would be dead in the water.
Cheers,
Rev
Hey Rev sounds like you need your advisors. Well they stand ready Email me the file in a zip folder please. I'll put it straight up on the net for download.
POWER TO THE SULTAN
Revenant69
09-04-2003, 18:35
Ok the file is sent. I do need some advice on the course of action. As i said i will probably assassinate the Aragonese king and hire his 5 elite armies under my control http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif But this war of attrition is definitely nasty. Actually when i looked at the game i saw that most of their navies was destroyed but i remember losing a TON of ships thou.
Anyhow, I hope my royal cabinet (is it called Divan?) can give me some valuable info. Oh oh oh and for all his help i bestow the title of Grand Vizier (sp?) onto SeljukSinan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
PS Seljuk, where did you get those funky emoticons? are they for senior members only or something?
Game on
The save game is available by clicking the following link:
Save the Turks Part II (http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/downloads/savegames/TurksEE2.zip)
Wow that was close, I only had 1% of hotmail space left when I received the save game. It's approx 800 bytes in size. Please feel free to download it, it easier just to open the game and see what is going on and what can be tweaked.
Rev I got the emotis from Totalwars.net (http://www.totalwars.net/forum/index.php). It's another mostly multiplayer forum of the total war community. Beware that this is a umm slightly more rougher place than the org, and there are combat zones for those whose pleasure is fight.
There is a replay section, there are a few good ones (try Znake vs Kanuni). You have to register at the site, once you have registered look at the top of the screen and you will see two headings, VI replays & 1.1 Replays. Just click one of the links and you are in the replay section, click once again on the replay of your choice, save to your savegames/battles (IIRC) folder and voila ...all set to watch. You can also post your own replays, savegames or pics, whatever in the same manner.
Indeed the name for the court is Divan, I had that title before in a clan : Seljuk (http://www.geocities.com/mtwturks/Home.html). That's why my name is still SeljukSinan, though I'd be happy with Sinan now that I left the clan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif . You can visit the forums of this ex-clan of MTW here. (http://pub78.ezboard.com/bclanseljuk)
There was another clan in MTW multiplayer which actually was my favorite, becuase of this great guy called Dilshad. A Kurdish living in Sweden. He is really a great guy, although he was busy with studies he did not really have much time to post and stuff. Here is his web-site (this clan also disbanded due to lack of time):
The Ayyubid (http://w1.877.telia.com/~u87739403/)
This guy Dilshad, is very special, one of the few who retained the code of Muslim chivalry close to his heart.
whoooops getting OT now...
Cheers gonna go have a look at your game.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
HopAlongBunny
09-04-2003, 21:33
Quote[/b] (karmastray @ Aug. 28 2003,23:58)]Nobody here likes the Futuwwa?
Futuwwa are great
Nothing clears out the millions of archers the AI likes to produce better than these guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif They fight very well AND are fast
Very flexible unit, excellent morale...just have to keep them from doing suicide charges http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Revenant69
09-04-2003, 21:36
I couldnt agree with you more HopAlongBunny, I use Futuwwa's extensively. The fact that they can fire from range and then close in and do well in melee is great. In my last batle i had one unit of futuwwas decimate 3 archer units when i charged them uphill
HopAlongBunny
09-04-2003, 21:50
Just looked at your save. You got the game in the bag http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
From my quick look, it seems you need to concentrate on the ocean for a bit. I only saw 2 places producing ships; 3 is a min. for me; as soon as I am able I start production of fleets in 3 areas, with production staggered to start one fleet each turn. You may need to build a cpl more places to produce them.
Short term; sweep the English from the sea. Long term: prepare to sweep the Italians from the board http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Looks great Have fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Does'nt look so bad. I think it will become really interesting now. Specially after the arrival of the Horde.
I had a quick look.
I can offer the following replay as of immediately. You can download it here:
Improvised Hill Defence (http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/downloads/mtwreplays/ImprovisedHillDefence.zip)
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/revstaragon1.jpg
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/revstaragon2.jpg
Basically I wanted to test the Aragonese as they seemed like a clear and present danger, due to their numbers. I attacked Aragon but instead they attacked me in Navarre, a mountainous are as well. Indeed the Futuwwa are great You can see in this replay that in the first charge I just ordered my futtuwa line to run down the hill. While they were running they impetous charged a couple of units, routing them. The Aragonese King fell to a Futtuwa's arrow, before he could participate in the battle. I kept my general close to fighting foot soldiers, to boost their morale by "encouraged by the general status", since they were outnumbered.
Hope that helps...More to follow....
Revenant69
09-04-2003, 22:19
Holy Sh*T...Thats a nice casualty ratio for such a big battle Seljuk. Ok i gotta go and watch that replay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Wait a minute...i thought the spanish were no more. Hmm im puzzled now.
PS Nevermind..i guess the revolt happened there and so the spanish were in that battle too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Revenant69
09-05-2003, 05:46
Damn Seljuk that was one nice replay. I cant believe i havent thought of the following before: arranging your army outside of woods and then using the Alt+click to place them inside the woods. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
It will come in very useful against the Horde i think http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif However i think i will stick to my original plan and assassinate their king and then bribe their armies to my side. We shall see. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
HEHE Either way is cool. I noticed you have a super valor 6 assasin for the job http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I used to have a lot of mercs in my army, until I read somewhere that their support costs are like double normal troops. So an AHC unit trained will be half the support price of an AHC Merc. Needless to say after I read this I went straight back and examined my finances. I disbanded all but the essential merc in my armies and freed up about 1,600 florins per year. Since then I only use mercs when it's absolutely essential, and once the battle is done I disband them.
Another reason why I hardly use mercs is becuase you cannot merge their units, neither can you give them any titles. SO once a battle is done you are almost always left with depleted merc units. When you are looking for someone to give title to the mercs tend to be potential governors with like 5-6 acumen sometimes, but since you can't title them, that is no use either and this is a unit spot that could be taken by a governor unit.
The type of mercs I actively seek and maintain in my armies are the fast cavalry types, e.g Alans, Steppe Cav... These I find to be worth the price to maintain in a standing army, sicne they can be used as reserves to chase fleeing enemies till they hit about valor 6. As they are used only for fleeing enemies in rear attacks, they tend to gain valor fast enough that later they can be used in more direct attacks. Again though you cannot replnish the unit so once it's below 40-50% stregth it becomes very expensive, in terms of unit slot to keep this unit.
The way I plan the game, I account for spending the initial years in economic and minimal military development (usually). This then produces an income which can be used to train units and build military infrastructure. This same income could also be used to hire merc, but in the long run you can train far superior units with valor, armor, perhaps weapon upgrades at a cheaper price PLUS you can build your infrastructure. Military might flows from economic might, in this case. An army dies if it has no money.
Revenant69
09-05-2003, 19:42
I am aware of downfalls of hiring too many mercenaries. They do cost double the upkeep. But you know what sometimes it is worth shelling out 180 florins/year for a unit of tough Heavy Horse if I have no access to one.
The reason i hired every available merc is because i was at war with 5 nations and they constantly attacked me with their huge multiple stacks. So i needed to replenish my losses fast. Honestly losing 1000-2000 soldiers a turn takes its toll real quick. So i hired mercs to serve as meatshields for the next AI assault.
As far as not being able to replenish merc units - yeah i hate it too. Thats why i collect broken and demolished units into one army and send them to assault castles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Why disband them when you can put them to work? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
After the initial shock of losing big chunks of my HUGE Iberian army i started training troops everywhere http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Usually i dont hire just about any merc, quite the opposite. I hire mercs that complement my armies or merc units that i cant train. If you noticed i had alot of Mounted Crossbowmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Usually my economy is good enough to support huge merc armies anyway. So thats that.
PS it was a real cool replay Seljuk, thats where i learned that you can deploy troops outside the forest and then put them inside. Man that will save a ton of time against the Mongols lol.
Hi Rev http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
That's a good idea to send the depleted merc units for siege situations.
I usually make my formations of reasonably flat ground, during the deployment phase. Once the units are formed up I then just alt click em to the place I want them to be. This is specially useful for defensive boxlike formations which are easiest assembled on reasonably flat ground and then teleported into forest, on a hill slope etc. It's just too cumbersome to try and make a formation in the trees.
Here's 2 examples. I already used these in other threads, so you may have seen em before. I used this formation vs the Horde as Egyptians. Pretty straightforward, spears deter charges, while arbalesters volley fire, with catapults:
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/formations/singlefilearbas.jpg
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/formations/singlefilearbas2.jpg
I hope I can contribute some more here, and offer some advice which usually helps me in my game. I'm sure you know most of this, but just in case. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
What I do at the beginning of the game is that I decide beforehand what kind of empire I am going to have, how big it will be, etc.. I learnt is that this helps the game in later stages. Since we only have about a century to use Lancers to the maximum I like to churn them out 4 per year (more if possible) as soon as Late age hits. I try to do the same for all period specific units. I make every effort to be ready when the period changes, so that I can immediately start producing the troops that I require, in large quantities if needed.
The problem of losing many units per turn is only a problem in relation to the troop production capacity of your empire. If the empire can produce 2,000 troops per year, then even when you lose 1,000 you still have 1,000 more than you had before. This is just an off top of my head example. Basically what I mean is that your empire must be able to cope with attrition and even have a surplus of troops produced when at war. Naturally you have those exciting situations (like in your game) where everyone attacks you and the troop attrition may exceed what you planned for.
The game technology tree is pretty deep, and is set up in a way that prevents multiple provinces from producing everything at the same time. Unlike Shogun where (I felt) the tech tree could be topped for multiple unit types in the same province, in MTW I feel that a maximum of two tops can be reached before the province becomes inefficient, due to the time it takes to top the tech tree.
I feel that it is necessary to have specialised provinces.
Province specialisation can be broken down into three broad categories:
Economic
This province is focused on money making and is part of the economic base of the empire. This specialisation category is broken down into:
-Agriculture
-Trade
-Mining
Military
This specialisation allows the province only military production. You can have up to two specializations before it gets too time consuming for another one. This category is subdivided further into 3 main sub categories:
Troop Production
-Attack Infantry (primarily swordsmen or hybrid)
-Cavalry
-Artillery
-Missile
-Defensive Infantry
The term defensive infantry is broad and more appropriate would be Spears/Polearms. Here you build only spear and polearm units e.g JHI, Chiv Sarges, Billmen..
Naval Production
-Shipyards
-Artillery
Since you need canon foundries to produce the canon armed vessels of the Late era, you need to start working towards building foundries after the advent of gunpowder. Once you have produced enough canon armed ships this province can now be used to produce artillery if necessary. While you are building your cogs, booms or carracks you can climn the gunsmiths guild section, and eventually produce serpentines, and arqbusiers in these regions also. However the primary focus of the artillery production should be in artillery producing provinces. For the sake of simplicity I include arqs and gunpowder units under artillery, but you can also dedicate say 4 provinces only to artillery. There are enough production areas to go around.
Special Agents
This includes all the special agents.
-Covert: Spies and Assasins
-Religious/Diplomatic
IMO the religious agents have a warfare purpose, to convert and subdue the enemy population before freindly forces move into the province. Naturally Inquisitors are much more offensive than Alims, or Priests and can be used just like an assassin. This makes them in my perception, a religious warfare unit.
Other
-Government
This includes all buildings such as Border Forts, Chancellery, Admiralty, Chapter House etc. Normally I have one capitol province with all the main title giving buildings built there. This is the most glorious province, the seat of power. Naturally you have border forts in every province that is the first thing after conquest, what level of "government" (for lack of a better word) infrastructure you build from there on is up to you.
-Fortifications
In a border province where the enemy is strong, it can be wise to give priority to building fortifications. In any case I build the largest fortresses wherever and whenever I can, as a measure of prosperity, military dominance and success of my empire. Normally Fortresses are inhabited with provincial defence forces. they just sit there and get lazy, drunkard, loony and all these kind of good V&Vs.
In order to illustrate this more clearly I have made a diagram. There are some things that can be changed or added here so please feel free to make suggestions. The purpose is to show clearly how to specialise and prioritise province development.
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/downloads/mtwtools/prodevpriorities.jpg
Now we come to the question of priority. The specialisation of provinces is most effective when each province is building according to the specialisation priority. This means that you can focus some provinces exclusively on economic development and allocate others to military or other development. What I also do is actually just focus one province for even a single troop type. Since Armenia has a valor bonus for AHC I just focus on getting to Master Horse Breeder in that province and then produce AHC of +2 valor from the start. Since Granada (?) has a valor bonus ofor AUM I just focus on reaching AUM production for that province. Of course you can if needed produce the units as and when required, in the meantime you continue to climb the tech tree for that unit type. So later on you have some troops already and then you can retrain em and get added starting valor.
Of course most provinces need more than one type of development. Most can offer a profiatble return on investment in agriculture, trade and mining. With mining and trade yielding the fastest break even and profit. So this means that the province in question has to develop economically and militarilly. Here is where the prioritisation comes useful. If the province is primarily a military province, then I focus on reaching as high on the unit tech tree as possible before constructing economic improvements. Vice versa if the province is primarily economic. Naturally priorities are JUGGLED should circumstances require.
In this way you can hit (as you did) the period specific units as soon as the time arrives.
Another MAJOR benefit of this kind of planning is that you can pre-allocate which provinces will produce troops. In the beginnning of the last campaign I played as Egypt, I recognised that I would need about 40-42 provinces to have an army capable of MTW dominance. I targetted the most useful to me and attacked. I immediately allocated the richest to economic priority, and approximately 18 to troop production, 6-7 to naval production. The rest were climbing the economy and "government" tree. What this meant is that in one single year I could raise an ENTIRE 16 units. In the worst case this was sufficient to thwart any threat from any empire. As time prgressed and the other provinces topped the economy trees, I swithced them to military as well. By 1300 or so I was able to throw out about 32-34 units per year, 2 full stacks. In 3 years I could produce 96-102 units or 6-6.5 FULL stacks. At this stage your military victory is assured and all you need to do is pick the time of day.
Normally at this stage I sit and watch my empire flourish. If any nation wants to attack becuase their leader has some death wish, we'll oblige. Otherwise it's smooth sailing racking up the glory points to victory. After a certain stage you have to choose either you go for all out conquest or you maintain a superpower. I did this in an Almohad glory campaign. The empire strecthed from Iberia to Egypt and that was all. Yet this empire was the most developed and most successful one can say. Choices, choices.
The troop production is done in cycles and now that your provinces are prioritised by missile, artillery etc..The constant tweaking and cycling through production is enough to drive me to try to invent an MTW bot which can do all this superbly intellectual work. So your build que should be such that everything is done in cycles. Set it up and click end turn at least 4 times without having to tweak anything. What you have to do is time the completion of a building and/or troop type so that once the prior production is complete you now start another cycle, so everything finishes at the same time. This is more important for troops and ships where you want fresh stock asap and you don't want to spend half an hour scuttling about the map picking up one piece at a time for 10 turns. You select an accessible assembly area and pop everything into that after 4 tursn (for example), form them up into a stack and ship em. Sorry, I did business administration at school and this single parcel stuff is totally unprofitable http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif For buildings and infrastructure I divide the provinces into regions and then handle em. e.g Iberia, North Africa, Arabian area. So everything in one area finishes at the same time, meanwhile the other areas are building. Then I restart a cycle in this area, makes it much easier and simpler.
Your troop build que could look like this for an off hand example for "balanced" army:
Province : Production
-A: 4 * Cavalry
-B: 4 * Cavalry
-C: 4 * Cavalry
-D: 4 * Cavalry
-E: 4 * Swords
-F: 4 * Swords
-G: 4 * Swords
-H: 4 * Swords
-I: 4 * Spear/Polearm
-J: 4 * Spear/Polearm
-K: 4 * Spear/Polearm
-L: 4 * Spear/Polearm
-M: 4 * Missile
-N: 4 * Missile
-O: 4 * Missile
-P: 4 * Missile
This is assuming you have 16 troop production provinces. If you have 16 you will have a full stack per year. If 32 then 2 full stack and so on... In the above example in 4 years you will have FOUR full stacks. But since each province is specialised you need only spend your resources on the constrution of specific buildings and specific units. In MTW building everything in every place is too time consuming and not even possible, probably. It helps to have an army set up, and once the 4 year cycle is done you may be in a position to fortify your boders, deploy your fleets and feel secure and rich about yourself.
Also it helps greatly if the troop production provinces are as close as possible, or perfectly connected by sea so that you can assemble you full stack in less than 2 years i.e one year to make the full army and deploy it to an assembly zone, and then the next year put the units together.
Naval production is very important and by the end of High or middle of High era, you should really have 2 ships guarding each sea zone in your sphere of influnece. With a further 3-4 strike fleets of approximately 4-8 ships each, depending on the strength of the enemy fleets. The strike fleets are for an offensive role. Their purpose is to seek out threats to your shipping and eliminate them. In times of war, they are tasked with blockade and seek and destroy duty, denying the waters to the enemy. Your offesive armadae (plural ?) can consist of large and small warships but at least one should be deep water ships capable of deploying across range in one year. The coast guard is defensive and will comprise shallow water, fast vessels able to attack incoming enemy vessels or choosing to escape with greater speed. Usually if the naval production is going to plan, you will outnumber all enemy by this time and once you have built your most powerful warships in the early Late era, you will be able to completely stop producing any more ships till the end of game. Only when you see a fat juicy target, do as the AI does, sink it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Naval production zones should also be VERY closely linked. Ideally close coastal regions are all allocated for economic and naval production. Also it's best if the naval production facilities start producing at the same time, so you have a brand new fleet ready once all have completed production. Here are some examples of fleet assembly areas:
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/saveturks7.jpg
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/saveturks8.jpg
This is the best one for the Turks, the richest provinces can also be allocated to naval production. Thus they produce the item required for trade themselves, ships.
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/saveturks9.jpg
For the Turks, or any other empire who wishes to dominate the Med, the islands provide a perfect base for naval production. Not only are most of them relatively low income (except Sicily) they are also relying on ships to keep enemy troops out. This makes them pretty good spots for naval production, but also for special agents.
In your current game it does not look so bad to me, you need to bring your fleets together, into 4-5 fleets and clear the sea of enemy ships. At the same time you should re-prioritise your production. Maybe go defensive once you have conquered Iberia, and the Med islands. Build up your forces and your production capacity. Finally your cash flow seemed really good 456k in the bank and 7k surpluss per year. This means you can chill for the next few years and organise, alternatively you can buy anything you want, any army and continue the offensive. I believe in slow and steady, so I'd recommend pulling out of France once the Jihad is victorious. Setting up for the Horde. One the Mongols arrive and their intentions are clear, you can launch another campaign. Do take the islands though. Lastly I'd suggest sending a maximum of 4 religious agents into each enemy province on the target list. This ensures that the population is converted before friendly forces arrive, and will reduce provincial defence garrison sizes and hence costs.
Please all lemme know if you have any questions and/or suggestion to this post. And I hope that this helps.
Cheers and GG http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Uuh, very nice for a beginner like me Thanks, SeljukSinan, that message really would deserve a place in some sticky "tips for beginners" -thread we have here.
-Juha
Cool. That's what forums are for. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Btw you have seen we already have a beginner's guide HERE (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=9203). Check it out if you have'nt already. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Revenant69
09-08-2003, 04:50
Wow, very cool post Seljuk - very informative. This will definitely help alot of newcomers to TW series and even ppl who played for a bit as it would give them a different perspective on things.
I do a lot of planning before i start the campaing. Usualy i dont like playing Total domination because it gets really tedious to manage a big empire and i hate that. So i only play Glorious Achievements (PBM games dont count http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ). In those games i usually decide what the best possible border would be for my Empire and plan a course of action accordingly. Oh yeah one of the weird things i do is I always always take Switzerland and make a "Swiss Corridor" as i like to call it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Those SAP's are just too sweeeeeet. I guess its just my signtaure move on the campaign map lol.
I do plan and prepare for a new age beforehand. That way i can start building advanced units immediately - and they will probably make a huge difference and give me the initial momentum on the AI (before they start getting advanced units too).
Anyway, i have to get back to the Turkish PBM game and fight a civil war http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif I will post more thoughts on your "guide" later.
Cheers,
Rev http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Well this thread made me start a new campaign as Turks. I spent from the beginning till 1128 (IIRC) developing the starting provinces. I left all provinces open with a "Royal Corps" in Syria. In position to counter any attack into Edessa, Rum or Armenia. All the other (than Syria) provinces had one Ghulam Bodyguard in a Fort or Keep as an incentive to attack and sweep the highly developed provinces. I thought they were good fat targets. Neither the Egyptians nor the Byzantines attacked me. I was disappointed to say the least.
The "Royal Corps" had AHC valor 4-5 (starting valor +2) trained by Armenian Master horse Breeder. The Akinci (Turcoman) were trained by a Rumelian (correct word ?) Horse Breeders Guild, with added +1 --> +2 morale bonus from the Mosque and Ribat situated in that province. The Akinci have poor morale so I built morale improving buildings to compensate.
Finally around 1130 my "Royal Corps" was sent into combat for the first time. I allied with the Egyptians and waited for the backstab, but instead they attacked Byzantines who were busy with rebel provinces north of Bulgaria, and a war for Naples. I attacked the Byzantines the very next tur. Sent the "Royal Corps" into Rum and then down the trusted road to Constantinople, attacking Anatolia with the Egyptians. It was really remarkable. Finally the Egyptians backstabbed me as soon as I reached Constantinople. Now they have lost everything down till Tripoli. The plan is to take Egypt and hopefully I can leave their 6 star general in Arabia till I have 70,000 florins to bribe him. The initial Seljuk-Mamluk onslaught against the Byzantines was spectacular .
I have about 8 very good replays, all cav. Out of these I reckon 6-7 out of them should get very high marks. I can post them tomorrow PM hopefully. I think they are very good examples of all cav early Seljuk armies (within the context of the game).
It's been really one of the most interesting campaigns I played to date.
Revenant69
09-08-2003, 23:31
Awesome stuff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I wouldnt mind getting my greasy hands on those replays so if you can then please email them to me.
Quote[/b] ]Well this thread made me start a new campaign as Turks
Hahaha, I am glad that it did http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I started this thread to get help and i guess it evolved into a sort of educational post about the general strategies for Turk armies. Needless to say this is one of my favorite threads http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Yeah that Egyptian 6 star general (al Adil) is quite nasty. By the way, the dates for Turkish heroes that you have posted in the PBM Turk thread were abit off. But i shall write about it there.
By the way you may have your hands full when i finish my reign as Sultan Suleyman II in the PBM campaign http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Cheers,
Rev
I think I may have to bow out of the PBM, let's see what happens at work tomorrow. I only got off at like 19:30 (late for here working hours) today.
Hey Rev I'll post the replays in this thread tomorrow hopefully. I should really spend some time to organise them before I post. But I do have this custom battle replay which is pretty fun to entertain you meanwhile:
Lancers vs Arqbusiers & Camels (http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/downloads/mtwreplays/firearm1.vrp) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
EDIT: LOL I just watched it again. Well the main thing I was trying to do is to make a kind of V each time I use the arqs, so that anything that they are shooting at is caught inside the V. Later in the battle I try to run the arqs round the enemy to shoot in the back. They don't kill much but they have the cause fear factor, if they shoot one man the whole unit suffers a (-6 ?? IIRC) morale penalty. That can rout a unit easy when it's already less than 50% strength. the second thing I wanted to do was to hit the Lancers from the rear with camels, this I managed on the left flank. Note though how quick the AI fell out of formation, with the first fake attck by those cowardly Saharan cav. Off topic. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Revenant69
09-08-2003, 23:45
Quote[/b] ]I think I may have to bow out of the PBM, let's see what happens at work tomorrow.
NOOOOOOOOO. I was looking forward to seeing the Turkish Sultanate grow in power. But i do understand that life has its demands as well. Hopefully everything will work out for you in a good way.
Gotta go watch the replay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Yeah everything's fine dude http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Well here is the first one. Some single line cavalry charges here. Also how to tire Katanks with 500 florins of Turcoman, before engaging them.
Turks vs Katanks (http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/downloads/mtwreplays/TurkAllCav1.vrp)
Revenant69
09-09-2003, 01:49
Great replays http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif I noticed that in the replay against the Byzantines their general's unit had 11 purple flags (thats what i counted at the time). So the valor of enemy general was at least 11. A Katank with 11 valour led by a prince/king is EVVVVIL. I am not surprised that they dished out a beating to your cavalry.
Lucky bastard general escaped too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Well, it was a tough fight but the Katanks were properly conditioned. They were made to run around the map chasing cavalry that they cannot catch. They were kept away from their infantry, which they could not support and was promptly picked off one by one. They were tired out by chasing faster cav thus losing combat effectiveness, while being reduced very slowly in numbers by missile fire.
I considered it a victory, the only man that escaped was the King, all 3 royal katanks were annihilated completely.
For sure capturing that King would have been nice. I should not have been so lazy and raced ahead with a couple of horses on the flanks and then swarmed him further down the beach. However in some cases the King's hitpoints far exceed the damage a valor 3 Turcoman can do, unless the King stands and fights.
Too bad for escape, but the 1500 or so men the barney lost definetly compensate for his escape. I prefer captured Kings (Mo Money ), but if they run it actally makes it easier for you to rout their troops in the future. Their running skills impact a negative morale penalty to their armies.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
kataphraktoi
09-12-2003, 04:40
Once Again SeljukTerror, ur thorough knowledge of the workings of the Turkish armies is astounding.
If only you were born a Byzantine, what a general you would have been http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Its never too late to switch you know...
ROFL
Well I have particular disdain for the terror word, but in this context, I appreciate your compliment, Katank.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
kataphraktoi
09-12-2003, 15:19
Watching u dissect the Byzantine army like a frog reminds me of my golden rules for playing the Byzantines:
1) Hold your formation and army together, or they will eat you alive like a wolf......but not close enough to make one big target.
2) Communications between infantry, skirmisher and cavalry must always be maintained, no unit may stray alone.
3) Always have a decent amount of archers, or be prepared to look like a porcupine, if it exists in the region.
4) For goodness sakes always have light cavalry so your Kataphratkoi don;t have to chase like fools....unless you have the Turkish army defeated and want to have fun practising for the hippodrome in Constantinople.
5) Be prepared to move a lot - Turks are like water - can't keep them in one place unless u freeze them. But we are fighting in damn hot weather....... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
6) If u can't beat em, bribe em....:D....the Byzantine way.
Lots of good info here. I have just started a campaign as the Turks, Early, Hard, v1.1, 1128. Like Revenant69 I am used to playing the Catholics and have been having trouble with the Byz. I got extremely lucky in my first turn of invasion in that the Byz moved their main stacks out of Trebizond and Georgia into Crimea and Khazar. I was able to defeat the remains easily and defensive battles are so much easier. Lesser Armenia was harder but I had budgeted for the losses. Their counter attacks were brutal and I lost more than I killed but I had more to lose. I got lucky the same way attacking Constantinople.
I have been using a lot of sniper attacks to wear them down. These are small stacks of Turcomans/HA only, 2-6 units that I can control easily. I pick off their better units, that they can't replace now that I hold (barely) Constantinople. I have reduced all the Kat units to just their Princes and most of their Byz Inf, Varangians seem almost immune to HA's.
The major problem I am having is that it is hard to take lands. Turcomans and AHC are still fairly rare and since Egypt backstabbed me recently have to be split between the fronts. I also have problems forcing the Byz from the field when attacking, their armies are all vets. The few battles where I made a stand I got creamed, 3 units of V5 Byz Inf and one unit of V8 Varangians ate anything in their path.
I managed to save Constantinople from a Byz attack by hiding my last unit, 14 AHC in a forest and waiting for the timer to expire. My 5 star prince had been with them but routed 'dismayed at constant retreat' right near the end , and of course he routed into those Byz inf, but luckily the prince got out because the AHC were wavering and would have broken if the general had died. The prince now has 'Doubtful courage' and is useless as a commander.
This actually brings up a point that I find hugely frustrating and annoying. I have reduced the Kat units to 1 man each, their prince. When there is more than 16 units in a province the first thing they do is run the general off the map. This doesn't stop him from giving his generals bonus to the entire army and makes it impossible to kill him. I think it is a little bizarre that a general that has been forced from the field can still give his rank bonus to the entire army. If I could kill a few of these generals the Byz would be done, their huge valour bonuses are countering any advantage I can impart to my troops. The turks having a lot of low moral type troops is not helping either.
HopAlongBunny
09-20-2003, 18:57
Sounds like you're having a good game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
If the Byz runs his general off the map there isn't much you can do about it; the unit will eventually get a negative V&V which will hurt morale-net effect is to negate the bonus for the stars...sometimes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
The best weapon you have vs high valor VG's is HA's. I try to kill'em all before they ever get in melee.
Good luck With Constantinople your well on your way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
It is a good game. I really like the change from the more blunt force Catholic tactics. Turcoman Horse Archers are the coolest damn unit.
The sniper attacks with small stacks really worked wonders. I was killing hundreds for virtually no loss, unless I forget to check a unit. A couple of battles like that and my Torcomans are all around V3 and the Byz armies are all gone. After I got the Byz stacks under 16 units I could concentrate on the generals and eventually they fell. They were tough to kill.
Don't use anybody you want to be a general on these raids, they lose stars.
The Byz suicided big time, attacking the Germans and inciting rebellions on the northern Steppes. The Byz are pretty stupid tactically. They would take a steppe province with a small army and then it would rebel with massive stacks of peasants. These stacks killed off the People of Novgorod and reduced the Byz to Chernigov. They also attacked the vastly superior Germans, at the same time as being at war with me. I am a little disappointed with their eventual demise. I had 40 years of great back and forth 'got to win this battle' & 'oh sht' but they are now kaput except for Cyprus where thay will stay. I feel cheated that I didn't get to nail their coffin.
Is it possible to erase Vices, specifically the Doubtful Courage one. I have 2 generals that picked it up one is a 4 star the other 6 star. The 6 star is brilliant otherwise, the Amir of Rum, Skilled Attacker, Skilled Defender, Skilled Risky attacker, Skilled Assaulter, Magnificent Builder, Steward, Approachable and he just recently began thinking for a total Acumen of 8, but the -6 Morale makes him a useles general. Will using him to win a few easy battles get rid of the Doubtful Courage?
ShaiHulud
09-24-2003, 21:59
Quokka...
I don't know of any way to remove a vice. But, I think generals receive that particular vice when you just have them sit around and give orders. I think it's necessary to commit them to the battle frequently. Just pick the right fights and they should survive it.
Conversely, I think generals can receive the 'Famously Brave' virtue from being committed to battle often. Maybe they'd have to go through a wringer, not sure. But, since one of my generals first got branded as 'Doubtful Courage', I've always remembered to fight them and haven't since seen that vice.
Hmm this was a great thread, really enjoyed this discussion. Just saw it again, referenced in another thread.
Some of the links are broken, I'll see if I can fix em.
What's this I hear ? Horses ?
I think can hear the roar of the Turkish horde http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Time to get some time off from the PC before I start another Turk campaign
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sunny.gif
kataphraktoi
05-08-2004, 15:23
Too true Sinan
I've just recently played MTW again and I must admit, Turkish horse tactics have featured more and more in my campaign as the Byzantines. We all know Byzantine's weakness are in mobile missile troops......historically.
In 90% of my recent battles, the opening phase has been to harass the enemy before a main engagement. If possible to draw single units and dispatch them piecemeal by piecemeal.
yep, I love to unleash my hell horses upon the enemy whenever I can field an all HA army.
I do this with Turks, the Byz, Hungarians, and the Russians. The Hungarian Szeks are my favs due to low build reqs and quite good melee capacity as well as the high speed.
I gave Almos another whirl and before Faris, I found berber camels.
I know some people thiink they are useless but I found them a perfect counter to those annoying jinettes.
I just took out 2 units of jinettes with the camels with absolutely no casualties
Now they no longer harass my AUMs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Doug-Thompson
05-08-2004, 22:17
Ah, the thrill of the hunt.
Yeah, I like the goofy little Berber camel too. It's slow, but has nothing to fear from jinettes or any other light cav.
yep, it's an interesting unit in being anti cav and also a missile.
I wonder what would happen if I upgraded the heck outta them in that the counter to HAs is usually cav but this does well vs. cav.
I guess it would only be vulnerable to archers if I upgraded armor/weapons a lot. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
PseRamesses
05-09-2004, 11:11
You can also check out the "Guides-section" for each faction through early, high and late eras.
Daveybaby
05-10-2004, 13:08
I've just started playing MTW again, playing Turks (for the first time) Early, Expert.
I have found the most effective way to deal with kata's is to use mercenary (cant build my own yet) mounted crossbows. A couple of these working together can decimate a kata unit in minutes.
Every turn i check to see if any mounted crossbow mercs are available, and if so i buy em up to ensure that i can always have at least 2 in any army. Sure, its expensive, but not as expensive as replacing the units that the Katas will otherwise chew up.
Once you get to the high period things get a bit easier, since you will have some mounted units which can at least attempt to take on a kata.
hint: check for javs also when looking for a counter also.
besides, armored spears etc. can hold for reasonable time against byz troops.
druzhina are always available as mercs for 1 or 2 units of 60 men FFK which can reasonably take on katanks and even varangians.
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