Time Commanders

[Catiline]

Time Commanders 1st episode is going to be about Trebia apparently...

ITV listings (http://itv.utvinternet.com/listings/viewprogramme.asp?prognum=1322635&itvregion=northeast&itvpackage=at&itvgenre=6&episode=2&scheduleid=29141048&channeldate=04/09/2003&channelid=BE2)

This is backed up by The Sun

Or Not BBC2 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/listings/programme.shtml?day=thursday&service_id=4224&filename=20030904/20030904_2000_4224_7704_60) reckons it's Mons Graupius.

[DrHaphazard]

hah i like how you answer the question, but don't really answer it. Good work Catiline

[Knight_Yellow]

so either we get some trebia balls

or we get thousands of mental scotsmen kicking ass


*i know the scotts probably lost*

my excitement has risen a little about this program.

[Catiline]

Yup, the Caledonians took a whalloping from Agricola in 83 AD. That said, the only account of it was written by Tacitus, who also happened to be Agricola's son in law, but i'm sure that doesn't colour the account http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Stormer]

i dont care what battle it is i jsut want it now

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Aug. 30 2003,08:59)]Yup, the Caledonians took a whalloping from Agricola in 83 AD. That said, the only account of it was written by Tacitus, who also happened to be Agricola's son in law, but i'm sure that doesn't colour the account http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Yeah, but he gives the Caledonian chieftain a cracking speech..... even if it is unhistorical,

'Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant', 'they (the Romans) create a wilderness and call it peace'

In fact I was thinking of posting the whole speech but with America substituted for Rome....it seems to fit But didn't want to upset our US patrons. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Catiline]

Talking of substituions RP how much do you know about the Athenian Confederacy. Always strikes me as a much better comparison for modern day America...

[Red Peasant]

I suppose there are some pertinent comparisons, especially with the installation of compliant regimes, or destabilisation of existing antagonistic administrations, in their sphere of influence, no matter what their political ideology. The trouble with democracy and imperialism is that your own version seems to be the best and most viable, but democratic allies and neighbours can be a pain in the arse because they've got minds of their own and some will tell you you're crap, or wrong....like the French did to the US. Democracy can be too radical for the greater imperial power, and the big kid on the block don't like the little snotty kids getting uppity. The Athenians seem to have lost moral credibility in the face of many fellow Greeks, and maybe the same is happening to the US. If the US ever stumbles then you can be sure that there will be some modern type Sparta ready and willing to put the boot in.

[RisingSun]

I'm warning you guys right now, don't turn this thread into a US-bashfest, or I'm gonna have to get out the debating flaming fist forum-famous at scii.org. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (RisingSun @ Sep. 01 2003,00:26)]I'm warning you guys right now, don't turn this thread into a US-bashfest, or I'm gonna have to get out the debating flaming fist forum-famous at scii.org. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Anyway, my vote would be for the Trebia over Mons Graupius. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Catiline]

It would seem not everyone in the US is happy being compared to the worlds most famous democracy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Catiline]

And I agree, Trebia would be better than Mons Graupius, but seeing as it's for general consumption I'd suspect the latter...

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ Aug. 31 2003,10:37)]
Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Aug. 30 2003,08:59)]Yup, the Caledonians took a whalloping from Agricola in 83 AD. That said, the only account of it was written by Tacitus, who also happened to be Agricola's son in law, but i'm sure that doesn't colour the account http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Yeah, but he gives the Caledonian chieftain a cracking speech..... even if it is unhistorical,

'Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant', 'they (the Romans) create a wilderness and call it peace'

In fact I was thinking of posting the whole speech but with America substituted for Rome....it seems to fit But didn't want to upset our US patrons. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
So that would make Britain our "Greek stooge" right? Pretending to be independent and cultured but really living on our scraps and waiting to ask "How high?" when told to jump? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[DrHaphazard]

America isn't a democracy at all, its a republic. A comparison to Rome might therefore be a better idea. We do have the best fighting units in the world. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif And if we really are like Rome we got several more centuries to lord it over yall until the bombs start to fall.

I just hope NYC gets nuked first, those damn yankees. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Knight_Yellow]

Quote[/b] (Jacque Schtrapp @ Sep. 01 2003,18:12)]
Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ Aug. 31 2003,10:37)]
Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Aug. 30 2003,08:59)]Yup, the Caledonians took a whalloping from Agricola in 83 AD. That said, the only account of it was written by Tacitus, who also happened to be Agricola's son in law, but i'm sure that doesn't colour the account http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Yeah, but he gives the Caledonian chieftain a cracking speech..... even if it is unhistorical,

'Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant', 'they (the Romans) create a wilderness and call it peace'

In fact I was thinking of posting the whole speech but with America substituted for Rome....it seems to fit But didn't want to upset our US patrons. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
So that would make Britain our "Greek stooge" right? Pretending to be independent and cultured but really living on our scraps and waiting to ask "How high?" when told to jump? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
yes it would but since america hasent done a twentieth the things the romans did that changed the world i wouldnt go comparing the two in anyway.

[DrHaphazard]

Whoa whoa whoa, give us a break, we've only subjugated Europe in the last 50 years. How but we wait to judge the legacy after we've got a century of world domination under out belts.

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (Jacque Schtrapp @ Sep. 01 2003,17:12)]
Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ Aug. 31 2003,10:37)]
Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Aug. 30 2003,08:59)]Yup, the Caledonians took a whalloping from Agricola in 83 AD. That said, the only account of it was written by Tacitus, who also happened to be Agricola's son in law, but i'm sure that doesn't colour the account http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Yeah, but he gives the Caledonian chieftain a cracking speech..... even if it is unhistorical,

'Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant', 'they (the Romans) create a wilderness and call it peace'

In fact I was thinking of posting the whole speech but with America substituted for Rome....it seems to fit But didn't want to upset our US patrons. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
So that would make Britain our "Greek stooge" right? Pretending to be independent and cultured but really living on our scraps and waiting to ask "How high?" when told to jump? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Got it in one. You're quick tonight Jacque http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif


...however, as we have been noting, parallels can be drawn (often tenuous, agreed) between the US and Rome, or even the Delian League (First Athenian Empire/Confederacy). It's harmless fun.

Another parallel with Rome is that the Romans believed themselves to be the culmination of history, the end of history, the ultimate empire/government, invincible and unsurpassable. In fact,just like most Americans seem to think of themselves and their country nowadays. The Romans conceived of themselves as morally as well as militarily superior to everyone else, and that only their way of life, their institutions of state, and their ethical paradigms were ultimately forces for good in the world.

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (DrHaphazard @ Sep. 01 2003,19:50)]Whoa whoa whoa, give us a break, we've only subjugated Europe in the last 50 years. How but we wait to judge the legacy after we've got a century of world domination under out belts.
Well, Polybius contended that the Roman Imperium was effectively built (in the substance of its major constituent parts) in just over fifty years, so you guys are on schedule. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hakonarson]

If the US is rome then I want to know where Byzantium is that's going to be teh last 1000 yrs of it.....and who is Augustus?? :o

Persinally I'd favour Trebia, possibly Hannibals first attempted double envelopment, but Mons Grappius was in Britain, and it is being done by the Beeb after all.......

[ShadesWolf]

3 days and counting

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Sep. 02 2003,02:09)]If the US is rome then I want to know where Byzantium is that's going to be teh last 1000 yrs of it.....and who is Augustus?? :o

Persinally I'd favour Trebia, possibly Hannibals first attempted double envelopment, but Mons Grappius was in Britain, and it is being done by the Beeb after all.......
Well, Hako, if we begin with the Polybian timeline for the establishment of the Republican Imperium, then it should be about another 100 years before the American Caesar establishes his/her ascendency, and another 20-50 years after that for the American Augustus to establish him/herself. However, with the Americans being impatient they may go to beat that record http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


edit for damn typo

[Catiline]

Of course if we head off down the Delian league timeline things don't look quite so rosy...

[Catiline]

BTW, the Radio times suggests that this wek it's Trebia, with the human generals playing as Hannibal. If the AI is programmed to play accurate tactics on behalf of the Roman dullards at Trebia they shouldn't have too much of a challenge... Next week is aparently the Mons Graupius episode.

THe team apparently has a computerised floor with a map on it, and a big screen with the batle on it.

Damn typos...

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Sep. 02 2003,10:39)]BTW, the Radio times suggests that this wek it's Trebia, with the human generals playing as Hannibal.If the AI is programmed to play accurate tactics on behalf of the roman dullards at Trebbia they shouldn't have too much challenge... Next week is aparently the Mons Graupius episode.

THe team apparently has a computerised floor with a map on it, and a big screen with the batle on it
Lol You're right. They will probably have to dumb down the AI to play the Romans accurately at Trebia, and make the game AI look rather woeful in consequence. The Romans were way too gung-ho. Probably the first Roman general to show any imagination in the 2nd Punic was C. Claudius Nero at the Battle of Metaurus some 11 years later, but that was against Hasdrubal....and people want to see Hannibal.

[ShadesWolf]

The review I read said it was a battle between the Scots and the Romans

[ShadesWolf]

This is what the BBC web site says....


Quote[/b] ]Military strategy game in which wannabe warriors venture in to a virtual world to do battle with the greatest generals in history, beginning with the Roman assault on Scotland at Mons Graupius.

[Catiline]

Some shtos form .com - http://www.totalwar.com/time.htm

[Knight_Yellow]

Quote[/b] (DrHaphazard @ Sep. 01 2003,20:50)]Whoa whoa whoa, give us a break, we've only subjugated Europe in the last 50 years. How but we wait to judge the legacy after we've got a century of world domination under out belts.
the good old US has been around for longer than fifty years.

im not saying the US sucks far from it... im just saying you aint no romans.

[DrHaphazard]

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Sep. 02 2003,12:47)]im just saying you aint no romans.
I should hope not http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif


OH yeah, and i guess now its clear why no computer experience was necessary since these guys just manipulate the blocks on the board, not the actual RTW engine. I wonder how they correspond the movement on the big board with the ones in RTW engine.

[Knight_Yellow]

lol

yeah those blocks look about as exciting as a hernia

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Ok get rich quick scheme #47: Video tape Time Commanders and market to American TW gamers for $19.95 plus S&H.

*Note to self: investigate potential legal repercussions before opening Swiss bank account*

[TheDuck]

Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ Sep. 01 2003,19:47)]
Quote[/b] (Jacque Schtrapp @ Sep. 01 2003,17:12)]
Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ Aug. 31 2003,10:37)]
Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Aug. 30 2003,08:59)]Yup, the Caledonians took a whalloping from Agricola in 83 AD. That said, the only account of it was written by Tacitus, who also happened to be Agricola's son in law, but i'm sure that doesn't colour the account http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Yeah, but he gives the Caledonian chieftain a cracking speech..... even if it is unhistorical,

'Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant', 'they (the Romans) create a wilderness and call it peace'

In fact I was thinking of posting the whole speech but with America substituted for Rome....it seems to fit But didn't want to upset our US patrons. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
So that would make Britain our "Greek stooge" right? Pretending to be independent and cultured but really living on our scraps and waiting to ask "How high?" when told to jump? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Got it in one. You're quick tonight Jacque http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif


...however, as we have been noting, parallels can be drawn (often tenuous, agreed) between the US and Rome, or even the Delian League (First Athenian Empire/Confederacy). It's harmless fun.

Another parallel with Rome is that the Romans believed themselves to be the culmination of history, the end of history, the ultimate empire/government, invincible and unsurpassable. In fact,just like most Americans seem to think of themselves and their country nowadays. The Romans conceived of themselves as morally as well as militarily superior to everyone else, and that only their way of life, their institutions of state, and their ethical paradigms were ultimately forces for good in the world.
Wow..

First, I'm an American, so I'm speaking from direct experience here when I talk about 'Americans'.. Second I'm in my mid-40s, so the time for rash statements is long past for me.

I'll bet you look around at your own countrymen and wonder why some of them think the way they do. We here in the U.S. are no different. Your statement indicates that many americans think we are the be-all/end-all, when I find that most Americans merely want to do the right thing (which mirrors the world population). You and I might disagree on what the 'right thing' is at the end of the day, but I can tell you that the folks I know do not think of of the U.S. as the penultimate 'anything'.

And fyi: in many ways I think citizens in the U.S. are becoming more and more disgusted with the current state of our own goverment.

On the comparisons with Rome I have a simple observation...

Rome was a true imperialist power after ~200AD. Its focus was on colonies that provided direct tax revenue to Rome. Military power was used to enforce those taxes 'at the point of a gladius'. Furthermore that tax revenue was the lifeblood of Rome. Towards the end of the imperial period almost 2/3's of Rome's population was living on the dole provided by that tax revenue.

And for the next statement I"m about to make, I have a preface: The U.S. has made some very stupid decisions in the last 300 years.. It has also made smart ones.. But don't take my next statement with a broad brush.. I accept that no country is without its stupid moments....

On the subject of imperialist activity, the U.S. is not such a beast. The only colony with direct taxation at the moment is Puerto Rico, and it is a colony willingly (they just voted on this issue recently, and the majority voted to stay). And note: when Rome's colonies fell away, all the folks on Rome's dole went without. If Puerto Rico were to go away tomorrow, things would be fine in the U.S. The U.S.'s economic engine is *internal*, not tax revenue based like Rome's was during the imperial period.

The U.S. in the last century is not an imperialist power, and history bears this out. It has never made a practice of colonizing/staying/taxing which is the 'imperialist pattern'. The most rapacious imperialist power of the recent 200 years, and the one that matched Rome the best, is the former Soviet Union. Colonization, the garrisoning of military in those colonies, taxation, dependence on the tax revenue, revolt of the colonies followed by economic collapse. This sounds an awful lot like the late imperial period of Rome. Hell, the Soviets even followed the practice of using foreign troops to keep order in its colonies.. that is an idea that started in Rome

Many folks of many political stripes have been using 'imperialist' to describe the U.S. for so long that lots of folks are repeating it.. but as an amateur historian I just don't see it.

[Red Peasant]

Hi there 'TheDuck', nice to meet ya. Like I said the parallels are largely tenuous, so I agree with a lot of what you say. However, I stand by the essence of my last 'outburst' http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

"....parallel with Rome is that the Romans believed themselves to be the culmination of history, the end of history, the ultimate empire/government, invincible and unsurpassable. In fact, just like most Americans seem [to the rest of the world anyways] to think of themselves and their country nowadays. The Romans [too] conceived of themselves as morally as well as militarily superior to everyone else, and that only their way of life, their institutions of state, and their ethical paradigms were ultimately forces for good in the world."


Mainly because that was not merely about the nuts and bolts of 'imperialism' (which is not as easy to define as you seem to intimate, cos it's a varied beast that comes in many guises), but about a 'state of mind', if you will.

The Romans, too, thought they were the good guys, bringing the benefits of peace and prosperity to a wider world whether they wanted it or not.

Regards.

[TheDuck]

Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ Sep. 03 2003,17:35)]Hi there 'TheDuck', nice to meet ya. Like I said the parallels are largely tenuous, so I agree with a lot of what you say. However, I stand by the essence of my last 'outburst' http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

"....parallel with Rome is that the Romans believed themselves to be the culmination of history, the end of history, the ultimate empire/government, invincible and unsurpassable. In fact, just like most Americans seem [to the rest of the world anyways] to think of themselves and their country nowadays. The Romans [too] conceived of themselves as morally as well as militarily superior to everyone else, and that only their way of life, their institutions of state, and their ethical paradigms were ultimately forces for good in the world."


Mainly because that was not merely about the nuts and bolts of 'imperialism' (which is not as easy to define as you seem to intimate, cos it's a varied beast that comes in many guises), but about a 'state of mind', if you will.

The Romans, too, thought they were the good guys, bringing the benefits of peace and prosperity to a wider world whether they wanted it or not.

Regards.
And nice to meet you

On the question of military superiority, you either are or you aren't. And that is by objective measure. So if I think the U.S. is superior in a military way and everyone else does too, its just a recognition of the way things are.. (and indeed, that is the truth&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

On the question of moral superiority, isn't that every culture's internal perspective? All cultures think their way is best or close to best, otherwise there would be great unrest and change in the culture. Witness the French citizen's reaction to the war declared by the U.S. on Iraq. It was unrest and demonstrations. It WAS a question of morality to them.. just like it was in this country.

In that sense (warning.. i'm going to speak in generalities): The U.S. thinks they are morally superior to France, and France thinks its morally superior to the U.S.

So which is correct? Who is morally superior? To this I have no answer.. I still can't answer whether the U.S. should have gone to Iraq to begin with... Rationally I think that cultures need to live through stupidity to learn from it (the reformation and subsequent renaissance are examples of an entire culture 'waking up' and changing its thinking). So 'hands off' seems like a good attitude..

The flip side is that it is quite apparent to me that a very large part of arab culture is currently controlled by a small percentage of fanatics who have actively declared war on western culture, to the detriment of all.. so how are we to deal with that? I do NOT have answers to these questions.. and unfortunately history is no guide.. the crusades were a dismal failure, as was the ottoman empire (the Middle East's response to the Crusades).

On Roman's thinking they were doing 'good': I highly doubt that the Romans thought that occupying a country was 'wonderful for the occupied'. They might have thought that the law and order was good, but I'll bet the average Roman knew that they wouldn't want the same done to them.. As to what the Roman's brought their subjects, it obviously didn't sit well with them, otherwise why would they revolt? My only conclusion is that the raw desire for freedom is much more basic to the human spirit than the desire for law and order. Especially when that law and order is externally imposed. In this I agree with the rest of the world.. imperialism is to be resisted at all cost.

And I stand by my original statements on imperialism and completely disagree with you on one point. Imperialism is not vague and disguised or come in varied 'guises'. It is objectively measurable. Either a country forces its will on another for the duration, or it doesn't. And temporary occupations do not count.. the attitude there is different. The U.S. and Soviets occupied Germany at the end of WW2 to allow a clean change of government and a rebuilding of their infrastructure.. We got out and the Soviets didn't.

And finally.. thanks for two extremely thought provoking posts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Regards

[ShadesWolf]

12.5 Hrs and counting......... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Stormer]

Well guys its 100% gonna be the battle trebia beetween the romans and cathaginans.

[Kraxis]

Great... BBC2 is basically the only BBC I can't get my eyes on.

I just wonder how it will work out. If 'Hannibal' will perform his Cannae a bit earlier? Or the Romans will break out entirely and possibly win?

[ShadesWolf]

5 minutes and counting

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (ShadesWolf @ Sep. 04 2003,19:59)]5 minutes and counting
Damn right... *Stands ready with the remote, hoping the VCR still works after the Gladiator Vid was chewed up the other night*

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Knight_Yellow]

well ummm for me it proved that the AI in rome is still as inteligent as a stoned chimp.

seriously

"what are our elephants doing?"

"just charging all around"

"oh very good"

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

no way in hell the "commanders" should have won that.

[71-hour Ahmed]

Trebia. And it looked pretty sweet. The only gripe I have is that if that is Rome TW then the horses look stupid all moving their heads in freaky synchronisation.

[TenkiSoratoti]

I knew there would be people immediately giving conclusions before the darn show had even ended. I was watching it for the footage of Rome: Totalwar...

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (71-hour Ahmed @ Sep. 04 2003,20:46)]Trebia. And it looked pretty sweet. The only gripe I have is that if that is Rome TW then the horses look stupid all moving their heads in freaky synchronisation.
Yep, same as MTW... But still the RTW Engine looks awesome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Stormer]

OMFG that was awsome except the geeky people.

Who wants to guess that the cathaginus had valour of about 9 and the romans about 1.

Also did the romans even use tactics or just lcick on the other end of the battle field and done nothing. you could send them 4 people up against a 1 week year old newb and there get their arse kicked.

but great show

[-Isapostolos-]

Quote[/b] (71-hour Ahmed @ Sep. 04 2003,14:46)]Trebia. And it looked pretty sweet. The only gripe I have is that if that is Rome TW then the horses look stupid all moving their heads in freaky synchronisation.
Yeah that's to bad. Not only there heads do that but the rest of their body aswell.

I lovedthe way the elephants just walked through the Roman regiments. Their charge wasn't stalled in the 1st regiment like in previous TW's, but they just kept on walking through and plunged through the regiments behind the first. Eventually they got bogged down like normal, but it is a nice change.

I also noticed that the romans threw there pillums whillest in combat. As far as I know that wasn't possible previously...

[Orange]

Yeah, I admit that the horses weren't all that goodlooking, but I was really liking every minute of it. A nice preview, and with more than half a year to go before release, I reckon much can be done to improve the looks.
Did you notice that Romans that died by that long pikes did so at the end of the pikes, not near the men holding them? I must say, the fighting looked very good, I did not expect much better to be honest.

Tuning in again next week, for the Scots...

Just remembered why that closing music sounded so familiar. It was from RainbowSix: Rogue Spear. I knew I had heard it before http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[the Black Prince]

tails flicking in sync? hmmm
but other than that.
WOW OMG WOW

this is a good way of getting responces from the community for improvements, lets hope CA takes note

[Yoko Kono]

all i can say was that it looked awesome but what sort of ninja pc will you need to run the game?
i know CA say it will run on low spec machines but surely it wont look anything like as impressive
its quite possibly one of the most polished looking titles ive seen in a long time and thats before its tweaked for its realease

[frogbeastegg]

Handy clips for interested people:

-The trees are 2d sprites just like in the other TWs, someone was asking about this somewhere.

-The in battle music was the real thing - Jeff Van Dyck was in the credits for it

-The elephants don't have much effect on infantry - they push them back like they are on roller skates and only a few men die. Ack.

-From the tiny bit at the intro it looks like some cavalry will be able to split up and encircle and enemy unit. Please that that be real, not just wishful viewing.

- You can now see the split second pause as the men go between combat cycles. They attack, pause then jerk back to their original stance before starting again. I hope this is fixed up a little.

- The horses and elephant synchronisation is damn scary They twitch, breath and move in absolute sync. Creepy. The men don't look to bad in sync, however this would be less good for the less ordered units like the barbarians.

More later when I catch my breath I've taped it so I will post an in-depth analysis froggy style when I've watched it a few times. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Orange @ Sep. 04 2003,21:12)]Tuning in again next week, for the Scots...
Yep sure thing... it would be intersting to see if the next team succeed or get their butts whipped

I wonder if a team did lose during the series...

[Nowake]

damn, I can get only BBC World here in Romania. Does anyone know if this BBC2 is broadcasted in eastern Europe?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

It was the battle of trebia. If you go to the entrance hall i've gave a bit of a one sided description about the program and the units involved http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Sep. 04 2003,21:19)]I wonder if a team did lose during the series...

I hope so If every bunch of amateurs (let's face it people that's what we are when it comes to real generalship http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) can outperform the real deal each week then there is something seriously wrong. It won't do Hannibal's rep much good since this team did 'better' than him by accident.

Does anyone else hope that these battles and their specialised AI will be playable in the final game?

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Sep. 04 2003,21:29)]
Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Sep. 04 2003,21:19)]I wonder if a team did lose during the series...

I hope so If every bunch of amateurs (let's face it people that's what we are when it comes to real generalship http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) can outperform the real deal each week then there is something seriously wrong. It won't do Hannibal's rep much good since this team did 'better' than him by accident.
Yeah compared to these people, we would be the Nine Star Generals... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But I think Hannibal would have done better himself if his key commanders were in the same room as him

[BDC]

And his orders were more or less instantly carried out, instead of having to hope they got to the unit before everything changed completely.

[frogbeastegg]

Nine star general, do I get a pay rise and a title with that? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Oh yes, what did people think to the river crossing? You can ford rivers through water now, no more bridge battles (or more likely less bridge battles) and much more flexibility in river environments. I hope you can cross at most shallow points rather than just at designated fords, otherwise we will end up with a graphically different version of a bridge battle.

I said this in the Entrance Hall but I'll say it again here:
Are there any questions people want answering? I will do my best to answer for those who don't have BBC2.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Sep. 04 2003,21:42)]Nine star general, do I get a pay rise and a title with that? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I'd have thought that the title of Assistant Mod would grant a command Bonus... or at least some dread. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Not sure about a pay rise though...

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Sep. 04 2003,21:45)]
Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Sep. 04 2003,21:42)]Nine star general, do I get a pay rise and a title with that? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I'd have thought that the title of Assistant Mod would grant a command Bonus... or at least some dread. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Not sure about a pay rise though...
Alas, no dread bonus. I can't actually hurt anyone as assistant mods are not allowed to torture the patrons, a real shame as I was looking forward to visiting the dungeon - you don't think it's really for modding do you? That's all a pretence to make this place seem nice and friendly - lure them in and then smash them I hear they got some new thumb screws as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif Anyway if I've got a command bonus that makes me a ten or more star general so you want to make sure I'm loyal

Did anyone else like the way the pikemen slowly shuffled back into formation after they charged? The ones that got too far ahead slowly dropped back and the others tightened their formation. I quite liked that.

[Knight_Yellow]

the AI was a joke.

i mean come on

bloody hell it got mualed by 4 gits whos basic orders where charge our horsies into that bunch.

inexperienced Noobs: 1 RTW:AI 0

[ShadesWolf]

As a game engine it did look awesome though.....

And it mentioned a few unit type.

Three Carthagian cav units
Slingers
Elephnats
etc

It seemed to play very smooth, and the battle map looked massive. I liked being able to zoom in and out....

[Orange]

I noticed the pikemen yes, they slowly retreated to the pack, whilst keeping their faces forward. And the water with the Romans crossing looked great

The team did, as they said, spring their ambush early. Personally, I would have waited a bit longer and try to send the heavy Spanish along the back of the legions to charge home when needed. But that's just me. As far as the infantry battle is concerned, I could not decipher any real TotalWar tactics, it was just: "Throw everything in Yes, everything"
Some strategy in the beginning with the cav, but then it came down to good old chaos, some errors (cav to far away, elephant charge not accompanied by infantry)...

But I liked it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif , as I said, especially because of the preview to R:TW...

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Sep. 04 2003,21:56)]the AI was a joke.

i mean come on

bloody hell it got mualed by 4 gits whos basic orders where charge our horsies into that bunch.

inexperienced Noobs: 1 RTW:AI 0
Maybe they set it on easy to give those inexperienced fools a chance...

Still the other thing we have to consider is that the Roman Army was said to be very "Inexperienced" compared to Hannibal's one, and I think we can assume that a Valor or Morale Bonus was given to the "Inexperienced noobs" in command.

[Orange]

Well, they did have their Spanish HC routing, so their was at least a minor chance their morale would drop too low http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
On the other hand, the were on the flanks, being pushed back after an ambush, under fire from javelins and running into trees with (as I guessed) light infantry in pursuit and I think I noticed some spearman reinforcing the ambushed flank... What else do we want to rout cav? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Sir Moody]

couple f points id like to make

Firstly the programme was trying to simulate the reality of the armies - the Romans At Trebia really did preform horrible (with the exception of the heavy infantry that escaped) so they must have had to dumn down the AI significantly to represent this

Secondly on the horses - guyz theres a good 6 months (more if they delay) at the moment they probably are just getting all the units Working and "Balanced" (knowing CA) Aesthetic changes like Getting the horses out of sync probably will be last minute things

[Stormer]

can we name some key features so i can post them on .org main page.

etc units, tactics, terrian and other stuff we dont know about. but found out.

[frogbeastegg]

How about the ability to withdraw cavalry reliably - no more of the clicking frantically trying to get them to disengage while the horses just stand there dying dumbly?

The ability to cross rivers at fords by walking through the water would be a good one.

How about a more in-depth section on elephants now we've seen them in action?

Ambush tactics have received a boost, you now have the ability to hide behind trees so you can now use terrain with more effect against the AI as it seems to work on a line of sight basis when checking to see if it can see your units.

[Nowake]

The ability to cross rivers at fords by walking through the water would be a good one.

It is a must

[FesterShinetop]

It was a fun show to watch and a great preview to R:TW.

But I don't think it was R:TW at it's best, I guess they have simplified it a bit for the show; so maybe no valor bonusses and the like.

I also liked the way the cav and inf ploughed (SP) through the water and the fighting animations looked really nice as well. The horses look ridiculous with the long necks (please CA change this...) and I didn't really like the synchronized movements. The terrain looked pretty but indeed trees and bushes looked very 2d.

Phew... something else. Did anyone notice that all units (especially the ones on the hill) looked like they were standing in water or something? Was that to simulate them sinking in the snow? I thought it looked rather weird. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

On the whole it looked very nice but I think we can also see why R:TW is delayed to next year... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[w00tage]

I think the elephants were missused, there was no infantry support so units they charged through merely reformed and carried when infantry could kill them while they were disorganised.

I like the huge map, there were also a hell of a lot of troops on the map, better than anything ive seen before.

I noticed the insyncnes of the horses stopped when they were in combat because then each soldier is doing his own thing. I also found that the clone army effect was not all that obvious as even when zoomed in there were helmets etc obscuring them.

Its a good show but the whole 'military bunker' idea makes me think of programs like mercenaries

well cant think of anything more

w00tage http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[FesterShinetop]

Nice boost for the site by the way. There are more guests on this forum than members LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Kraxis]

How did the legionaries look? Fair enough? Hopefully no lorica segmentata... hopefully some Triarii were there.

The Numudian Cavalry, were they skirmishers or melee? If skrimishers, could they throw on the move?

How does that pike-holding-distance-thing work? Are they impervious to enemy melee attacks unless they can get udner the pikes?

[Sir Moody]

yeah they looked great krax and as u said there was no Segmenta in sight

The best thing it seems the Skirmishers can throw their javlins on the move as i disinctly remmber the Numideons Chargning the roman Cav with javlins Flying overhead

[Stormer]

did anyone see the shaking off a couple of units like it was buggy, myabe its just a kinda beta RTW they used.

[Kraxis]

Thanks Moody. That put a lot of fears to rest.

Now, how do those pikes work? It was mentioned that the legionaries died at the point of the pikes, that is good and well, but how does the legionaries kill the pikemen? If they navigated the pikes to get to the man, then we have the old classic destruction of the formation. So could someone tell me how it worked?

[Orange]

I will try to clarify it a bit from what I remember. Haven't taped it, so if anyone thinks I'm wrong, that's quite possible http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The pikes moved in close order, the first rank moving with the pikes horizontally pointed forward, the second too, with their pikes in between the first line, pointed forward too. So in effect, enemies would have to engage two lines of pikes at different ranges. The third line held their pikes at a somewhat 45 degree angle, and the rest of them vertically upward. Pikemen on the sides had their pikes pointed horizontally forward, and slightly to the flanks. It looked very, well, solid.
I do remember a Roman coming through the pikes (and a lot of pikes coming through Romans http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ), but I can't remember how it worked out on the phalanx's formation. Someone else might be able to fill us in there.

Hope this shed some light http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[CBR]

Any special formations used for the pikes or just in general?

CBR

[Stormer]

Quote[/b] ]Any special formations used for the pikes or just in general?

The atcully looked like a phalanx with the first pikes pointing to the enemery and the other slightly going up but they seem to all run in indervtiully maybe it still needs to be polished.

[Swoosh So]

From what i saw the legionarres were held back at pike point and werent inflicting many casualties on the pikemen, but i suppose the pike were well trained and experienced, Did any one see any honor/valor flags? I only saw main unit flags. Elephants actually crash through units as in go in the front and come out the side or back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I hated watching all the horses tails waggle at the same time in the same direction it was like watching a sycronised dance, surely they can make some tails go the other way just to make it look a bit more real

Swooooosh

[TheLastEuropean]

So those were horses I thought they had a special giraffe unit there for a moment. Elite Numidian Heavy Giraffes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Oh and I noticed the 3rd pike protuded forwards, not upwards. You can see a very small point in front of the leading men, not much but still another spike to navigate for attackers.


One thing that came across about the program. The contestants seemed unsure of what exactly was expected of them within the format of the program. Outside of fighting the actual battle they were prodded and prompted several times by the presenter (one example was being told that they should put their blocks out to represent their units). Also, they were attempting to match the roman blocks to what the AI was actually doing which was almost impossible whilst keeping control of the battle. I put this down to being a new unique format and I expect the 2nd series to be a lot smoother and better, since contestants will be wiser as to how to play.

All in all though, an excellent and interesting program.

[Swoosh So]

Maybe one of the technicians in the program should be moving the blocks so that they can concentrate on the battle

[Leet Eriksson]

argh i missed time commanders,when will they run it again and at what time?

[Swoosh So]

Next thursday 19:30 bbc2

[Stormer]

7.30 next week not 8.00?

[Mount Suribachi]

Apache that "water effect" you saw was the grass I think. If you look at some of the screenies posted previously, you'll see some shots of cavalry standing in long grass. What you saw was I believe said grass just coloured white for the snow effect which I agree looked a bit weird. And speaking of water, the Roman army fording the river looked spectacular In fact, the whole game looked awesome (apart from the synchronised bobbing tails). The map looked he-uge, very detailed. The 3D soldiers looked great and there where loads of little touches, too numerous to mention and I'm sure we all picked up on different things. eg the spearmen, men at the back of the square pointed theirs in the air, those at the front had their spears lowered. The whole movement of men and units looked much smoother and more fluid than in MTW.

As for the AI....I think it was not even on easy, more like turned off Roman infantry units were just stood around as the Carthaginian cavalry was charging around 20 yards behind them. Even on easy we all took a butt kicking the first time we played TW, the carthage "generals" sprung their trap too early, used their cavalry all wrong till right at the end (they were obsessed with using their cav to beat the Roman cav) used their spearmen against the Roman Legionaries, let their elephants get isolted, ignored their missile units. I was so frustated watching it. Mrs Suribachi looked at me all funny when I yelled "you use spears against cavalry not heavy infantry" at the TV, so it annoyed me all the more when the "experts" kept gushing over their wonderful generalship. Having said that, I thought the whole "generals & lieutenants" thing worked quite well.

So summing up, RTW gets an A, Time Commanders a C- (because it annoyed the hell out of me).

I'll still watch it next week though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Nelson]

In all of this battle watching, has anyone seen the Roman infantry throw pila yet? Not the velites but the legionaries.

I have yet to see this happen in a screen shot or in a movie.

[71-hour Ahmed]

there was some throwing of pole things at the elephants for all of two seconds but nothing more and certainly not in co-ordinated fashion.

[Sir Moody]

The Roman Units did throw pilums but infrequently and with no kind of co-ordination (allthough at one point while the front ranks were fighting i saw the back ranks throw what looked like javlins into the enemy ranks)

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]The Roman Units did throw pilums but infrequently and with no kind of co-ordination (allthough at one point while the front ranks were fighting i saw the back ranks throw what looked like javlins into the enemy ranks)

Did they even do that when the front ranks were engaged? It sounds good on paper but it could prove disastrous in combat if the guys in back screw up their aim

[Mount Suribachi]

No, it looked like they were throwing them over the heads of the front ranks into the rear of the engaged enemy units. I was quite impressed with it.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ Sep. 05 2003,18:13)]the carthage "generals" sprung their trap too early, used their cavalry all wrong till right at the end (they were obsessed with using their cav to beat the Roman cav) used their spearmen against the Roman Legionaries, let their elephants get isolted, ignored their missile units. I was so frustated watching it. Mrs Suribachi looked at me all funny when I yelled "you use spears against cavalry not heavy infantry" at the TV, so it annoyed me all the more when the "experts" kept gushing over their wonderful generalship.
I must admit I agree with you there, I was really surprised when they didn't use their pikemen against the enemy Cavalry... Instead they used Cavalry against Cavalry and the rest of the time the Cavalry was running around elsewhere on the field while the Infantry and Elephants did all the work.

On another note I think the AI must have been programmed to move its armies in Roman Formations and using Roman Tactics rather than being programmed to win

[CBR]

Hm sounds like someone has been playing too much Total War. Lots of infantry used spears and it wasnt because they fought cavalry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

CBR

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] (CBR @ Sep. 06 2003,21:10)]Lots of infantry used spears and it wasnt because they fought cavalry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

CBR
Indeed.

[Divine Wind]

Quote[/b] (Stormer @ Sep. 05 2003,11:49)]7.30 next week not 8.00?
Just looked in the TV Guide and its at 8:00pm. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[DrHaphazard]

In both Zama and Cannae the opposing cavalry forces go after eachother first. In both instances which ever cavalry force won (Carthage at Cannae, Rome at Zama) would return and reak havoc on the infantry. Thus resulting in the total collapse of one side.

[Kraxis]

Thanks Orange. The pikes sound really interesting with such a cool formation.

So, nobody would venture a guess at the pikes? If they work along the lines of MTW (rankbonus but still killable) or along the historical lines (formation is everything and they are unkillable in formation).

[Sir Moody]

Krax from how it looked very few romans were getting to the men to kill the Pikemen (but id imagine some achers would ruin them in a few minutes) so id guess historical

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (CBR @ Sep. 07 2003,03:10)]Hm sounds like someone has been playing too much Total War. Lots of infantry used spears and it wasnt because they fought cavalry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
True, but they were a lot more effective VS Cavalry.

A footsoldier can dodge a spear a lot more effectively than a Mounted one... and a Horse is a much larger target, then when the horseman has been downed the Spearman would use a sword to finish him off (or the supporting guy uses his spear).

A spear is a multi-purpose weapon, but is at its best against Cavaly charges.

[Kraxis]

Well, naturally depending on length and grip. A short overhand gripped spear is not going to help anything against cavalry.

[CBR]

I was thinking more about comments like "you use spears against cavalry not heavy infantry" and "I was really surprised when they didn't use their pikemen against the enemy Cavalry"

Now I havent seen the program so maybe it was obvious that that the spears/pikes should have attack the enemy cavalry. But spears/pikes should not be considered weak against other heavy infantry. A well-ordered line of pikes will push back even Roman legions.

In the Total War series so far we have seen spears being weak and swords the best melee/shock foot you can buy. Sword units are nice but its more for their ability to maneuver and cope with bad terrain than because they can kill spears in a head-on attack. That was basically what I meant.

CBR

[The_Emperor]

Valid points guys,

When it comes to spear and Pike units you need to break their formation, and try to avoid the frontal "Wall of Spikes"... I mean lets face facts you charge head on into a tight formaion of Longpikes and Spears your gonna take heavy casualties whoever you are

Personally I would have sent the Spears and Pikes charging into the "Crap Roman Cavalry", and used My Cavalry to charge into the flanks of the enemy Infantry... But thats just me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Latro]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Sep. 09 2003,13:39)]Personally I would have sent the Spears and Pikes charging into the "Crap Roman Cavalry", and used My Cavalry to charge into the flanks of the enemy Infantry... But thats just me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
How do you envision a solid mass of heavy infantry 'charging into' cavalry?
They will just evade.
Meanwhile you are removing from the centre, the only troops that can put up a real staying fight against the Romans.
As your Phalanx runs after the cavalry they will start passing Roman infantry with their flank exposed.
The only thing that will stop all your pikes from being killed is that, hopefully, after a while the Roman sword-grips will become too slippery to hold, from the blood of your soldiers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Swoosh So]

Update as i said earlier time commanders is at 19:30 not 20:00

Swooooooosh

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ Sep. 11 2003,12:56)]Update as i said earlier time commanders is at 19:30 not 20:00

Swooooooosh
No it isn't... its being advertised as being on at 20:00 again.

[Swoosh So]

Trust me its 19:30

[Swoosh So]

Check todays paper, the website tv guides arent updated often.

[Stormer]

erm its 8 cause at 7:30 is soemthing called science shawks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Swoosh So]

Trust me its 7:30 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif shawks isent on

[Stormer]

Swoosh swoosh swoosh if you give up now and accept its on a 8.00, you can keep your repuation of being right.

if you have one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Swoosh So]

Ok if im right you pay homage to magyar and the wolves http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Swoosh So]

And if im wrong u think up a suitable punishment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Stormer]

ok http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ Sep. 11 2003,14:58)]And if im wrong u think up a suitable punishment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Looks like Stormer is gonna enjoy thinking it up... its 19:30 and Science Shack is on

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Stormer]

O what was that swoosh 7.30. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif


now for your punishment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Catiline]

Now i see what people meant about the presenter of htis programme.

And who are these idiots. I'm talkative so then I'll be the general.

[Catiline]

By hte way it's watling Street. The AI is the British

[Catiline]

So there's a shiny model of Boudicca.

[Catiline]

Didn't know the Iceni had pick axe armed berserkers

[Catiline]

And what look like falxmen. Sorry, they're the Woad Warriors...

[Catiline]

The Iceni are extreme;y angry and have no strategy.

[Catiline]

Gary's first suggestion is to abandon the high ground 'It's a daring suggestion'

DOH

[Catiline]

Looks good, planning a deployment before you know what each sort of troops do...

[Catiline]

More important to know what the troops do than how many you've got?

Legionaries are vulnerable from the flanks.

[Catiline]

At least the historians say they don't need a testudo

[Catiline]

Since the players think testudos will protect their flanks...

[Catiline]

Don't need to worry about those enemy chariots...

[Catiline]

LOL, now one of them wants to split his troops in two and advance.

[Catiline]

That's what they did - evidence Ben Hur...

[Knight_Yellow]

omg.

see this is why i was sceptical of the 16-60 requirment only

TC would be MUTCH better if it was 2 human teams fighting eachother that have past experience with TW.

now that would be sweet

[Catiline]

That's rights, move away from the high ground where your flanks were protected by trees.

[spacecadet]

Stay on high ground and in tight formation you fools
Doh - dont try a frontal assault

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Soon to be the fastest ever defeat of the Roman army. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Catiline]

Well the routing looks quite good. but they're forming the tortoise to beat the barbarian charge OMFG

[Catiline]

How frustrating must it be for the blokes commanding the troops on the computer...

[Catiline]

LOL, they're archers got caught from behind in a long line by cav.

[Catiline]

THe time must be slow, because on MTW they'd be well dead about 15 minutes ago.

[Sir Robin]

Argh...

Why didn't I move to the UK when I had the chance? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[spacecadet]

Finally theyre put out of their misery. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif

I must remember that "Ben Hur" tactic when RTW comes out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif

[Stormer]

a well deserved loss. if they won that i would never watch it again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

NO preview of next week

[ShadeFlanders]

Citaat[/b] (Stormer @ Sep. 11 2003,21:13)]a well deserved loss. if they won that i would never watch it again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
oh man, were those people idiots "Oh yes, let's split up our army, we're only outnumbered 6 to 1 No our units don't have to support each other." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Ben Hur http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif That was so frustrating watching them suck and not being able to do something

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

"Where all right, we have still got some men left" Male General http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Female lieutenant looking at Roman Legionaries
"Are those are men?" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[w00tage]

OMG what a bunch of utter retards, they should have picked generals who knew what they were talking about and leutenants who could follow orders but they were all useless. I feel sorry for the tecnicians who had to manouver (sp?) a defeat like that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[ShadeFlanders]

"I think we should regroup." (while all units desperately surrounded)
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
well if they had grouped at the start maybe they would have had tiny chance at re-grouping

[The_Emperor]

What did those guys think they were armed with? Guns?

Oh yes lets deploy our troops in long thin lines Two Ranks deep

And then we abandon the high ground where the enemy Chariots can ride straight through our lines... Then we allow ourselves to get outflanked. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

And then when the main troops are surrounded we will go after Bodicca on her Chariot in the vain hope that her death will rout the winning enemy army... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

As the historians said... "Disaster, the Romans are being Slaughtered"

Where did they dig up these fools?

[econ21]

Yes the team were awful - I was as frustrated as everyone (I thought last week's team were rather good). But it would be a tough battle in the total war engine even with competent players.

The Britons outnumbered the Romans 6 to 1 and both sides seemed to be comprised mainly of the equivalent of MTW "swords". I am not sure the Romans had enough cav or archers to offset the inferior number of heavy foot.

Plus woods on the flank would not stop the AI flanking you in the game the way it apparently did historically.

Realistically, the only way I can see the Romans winning this one in a total war engine is if they have a much better commander and are able to turtle on high ground on the edge of the battlefield.

Even then it would be touch and go.

I doubt the Total War engine will model the kind of factors that allowed the Romans to win but hopefully I will be proved wrong.

[frogbeastegg]

Trying to boost your post count Catiline? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Well what can I say?

-On the team.
:froggy tries to think of something nice to say. Four hours later she is still trying: Please God, never let us have to rely on these four for the survival of our country I shall keep the nasty comments to myself and try to be constructive. The man who said something along the lines of "They did it in Ben Hur - that's how they did it in histroy" needs a 60 hour intensive course on real history. He also needs his copy of the film burning so he cannot watch it again The one who said that chariots were harmless needs hitting with an inflatable mallet. The woman who came up with a reasonable plan only to give up needs to go on an assertiveness course so she can use her ideas. The one who first proposed killing Boudicca to end it all should play MTW and see what happens when you do that when the enemy are obviously winning. The man who wouldn't shut up and listen should learn to do just that. I think I shall stop there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif As a joke - the team were missing one vital unit - a frog to tell them what to do

-On the program.
Much better this time, the presenter was better and I loved the way he made those little remarks to the team for example "let's review the good parts of your plan. :one second pause: Now let's review the bad parts, :cue long speech on how bad they were". I still don't go crazy for the experts but they did have some good points about the Brits being underestimated and using the testudo outside of a siege situation being suicide. What was the whole toothpick thing? There is still a need for some tweaking, especially on the map where they put the blocks. That defeat imminent warning is very annoying - I hope they drop it fast.

-On the RTW graphics
This week looked much better, the main problems I had with the engine last time were not present - no elephants moving in unison and pushing Romans around like they are roller-skates. I don't really care about infantry moving in sync and the cavalry is supposed to be fixed up before the final release so it shouldn't be a problem. Why did the arrows leave smoke trails? They weren't fire arrows.

- On the units
Some new types were shown. The chariots look fantastic I can see me using them a lot just for the way they look as they zoom around the field, running people down and throwing javelins. Then I'll get over the effects and it will be business as usual http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif Thank heaven there were no blades on the wheels. The error on the RTW unit page has carried over - the Brit woad warriors were named but the art showed Dacian falx men instead. D'oh For some reason I thought the falx men were walking like they were wearing soiled nappies, although that was probably because I was laughing so much. I think I may use the Brits quite a bit in the future. The Romans were nice too but we have seen them in action before.

-On the AI
Well it wasn't nearly as stupid as last week, in fact it behaved quite like MTW's AI so at least we know things haven't got worse. To be honest as I watch the two episodes we've seen I'm not entirely convinced that is just the AI running the non player side. The enemy have a tendency to stop and wait until the players are either in position or completely screwed before moving, i.e. it moves to deploy, waits around a lot for the opponent to get ready and then starts to move again. Once it starts moving the second time it will progress as normal. The enemy only start moving when the player is done, for example today they advanced before waiting for the team to finish screwing up their position before starting the real movements and attacks. It was like someone had told it to stop and wait for the team. The enemy has also fallen for some traps that the TW AI we know would never do, Shoggy's AI wouldn't have walked into last weeks massive trap. I think it is a specialised, toned down version of the AI with a guy telling it to stop and start as needed, the pauses in battle for the players to reshuffle are just too well timed for it to be coincidence.

Any way I enjoyed it, any program that can have me shouting "what cavalry you idiots sent them to their deaths two minutes ago How can you send the cavalry to flank when there is no cavalry" can only be a good thing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Oh hell, some of the stupid things they said were so good I shall have to repeat them. NB these are paraphrased, as I can't remember the exact wording.

*We don't need the high ground; after all we are only massively out numbered.
*After half their men are shot by their own archers the team ask "what’s shooting at us?" before asking "what are the archers doing to kill our men, they are firing into the enemy that's mixed in with our men" The presenter answered that they were being hit by arrows since that was what the Roman archers were shooting Twas quite funny really.
*Oh no We are loosing badly, let's break up into even smaller clumps and ignore our men while we chase Boudicca (Maybe they liked her shiny armour?)
*We are being massacred, lets regroup back on the hill and start fighting the battle sensibly
*Our men are surrounded and cannot get away. Make them withdraw back to the hill.
*Our men are fleeing for their lives; order them to kill Boudicca on the way out please
*Chariots? Who cares about chariots, after all they are only mobile and deadly.
*The best way to keep your cavalry in reserve is to dump it right at the back where it will take a long time to arrive in battle. Good idea.
*To sum up our plan - we haven't got one. :Two minutes later after much prompting from the presenter they come up with: we will march onto the plain (height, who needs it?) scattering our forces as we go to make the Brits split up (who cares if they can surround us)before charging the enemy (I watch Braveheart in my spare time) and shooting them with arrows in a moving line of doom (I also like Ben Hur) and spread out into thin lines (cus it looks good and we need to block off this massive plain since the Brits are moving to attack our flanks, how unfair). We will win easily

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] ]Any way I enjoyed it, any program that can have me shouting "what cavalry you idiots sent them to their deaths two minutes ago How can you send the cavalry to flank when there is no cavalry" can only be a good thing

I bet we were all screaming at the TV in annoyance I can't remember the last time I got so worked up watching a TV show http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Knight_Yellow]

it was painful to watch.

it would be hilarious if those idiots joined the org and where reading this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Stormer]

LMAO bet there well pissed if they some saw of these comments

[Divine Wind]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

I think your right Emperor I honestly cant remember getting so worked up about a program like this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

"Your outnumbered 6:1"

"Hmm...Ok...lets march our army off the hill, into the open field, shoot some arrows and run like in Ben Hur."

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

DOH

[Sulla]

Oke...

Ermm. Lets withdraw. Can we withdraw? dont know.. o what the heck lets die bravely and send our cav on an assanation mission... hmm. O look who are the guys with pointy things.. Hé they seem to be killing our men.

O dear.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif WE ****** UP

DUH

[Sir Moody]

i have to say i have never laughed so hard in my life

when they mentioned ben hur my laughter volume rose several octaves and then when they put their men into the turtle i laughed even harder - u just couldnt stop til lthey were justifiable slaughtered

oh and im am prety sure it isnt AI at all its being played by a Technition the stopping at the road and the chartiots attacking then falling back are all good hints that either the AI has advanced in leaps and bounds OR there was a Human at the other end

[Jacque Schtrapp]

So it was the Britons vs. the Romans? And the Britons won? On British tv? Hmmm... could this be pre-arranged propoganda?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

j/k

Thanks for the blow by blow. Sounds like some rank amateurs got spanked. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Skomatth]

I always wondered why some new players did such idiotic things but now I realize some ppl are inherently stupid At least the testudo didn't work (romans only used it for assualting cities IIRC) that woulda been lame

[Sir Moody]

well actually they never made it into the full testudo and while intially they suffered some casulties for trying it it did have one good point - it deepend the lines of the roman infantry so they were able to fight more efficiently than in 2 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif accidently they prolonged the battle

[ShadesWolf]

Erm... What can I say that has not already be said ?

Not a lot actually.

- Chariots.
Seem to be an interesting unit. Setup in the same system as the elephants. One unit appears to consist of 5 chariots. However, these are a very efficient unit and good at breaking formations up. The romans were in a two line defence and the chariots just smashed threw the middle of it.

- Roman Units.
We had a glimse of some later Roman units. Legionaires, cavalry, aux infantry and archers. The Roman commander units appeared to have a unit of either 7 or 9 (cant remember)

- Britain
Quite a few units shown and talked about
- Chariots
- Cavalry
- Berserkers and a few other, will need to watch it again to rememeber the others

As with last week the battle ground looked massive and the effect of the tall moving grass was an excellent effect.

[Swoosh So]

The program was on at 19:30 in scotland hehe but was hardly worht watching what a disaster and a mess not just the generals but the whole program, to be honest i dont think the program will last if it has another episode like that. yes the presenter is poor but was actually arguing with the contestants and one of the contestants looked like he was going to hit him at one point, The presenter was like a child seeing someone else playing with his toys in the wrong way. Absolutely pathetic As to the format of the program what alot of mishmash, not well thought out at all, its plain to see that people dont get enough information on troop placements and the maps. why dont they take the time to inform them of some things before the program starts? Bah Ill give it one more episode as i enjoyed the first one...

Swooooooosh

[Stormer]

Quote[/b] ]The program was on at 19:30 in scotland

Are you sure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Fearless]

The girl at the beginning had the right idea but it was that fool of a bloke who's occupation is head gardener. Methinks he had his horticultural head on and felt His Romans needed a good pruning. If thats the case he did an expert job

[Swoosh So]

Did anyone actually realise how the battle progressed? I dident once the chariots hit, the coverage of the battle was poor. I dident really notice any new innovations in the engine, chariots looked half decent with their invisible reigns, but moved nice (untill combat that is).

[Swoosh So]

stormer Trust me it was 19:30 when i logged on this morning iwas going to be a wee bit smarmy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif then i realised our bbc2 must have had different listing times http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Stormer]

Quote[/b] ]stormer Trust me it was 19:30 when i logged on this morning iwas going to be a wee bit smarmy then i realised our bbc2 must have had different listing times

ok http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Swoosh So]

Bah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Rocket_Boy]

Oh my God that guy Gary was so crap Without him the team could have done a little better - though I certainly would'nt have given them much hope anyway. Choice Gary quotes:
- Lets split up and march down to meet them.
- Ignore those chariots, they don't look very good.
- Aw crap we are getting killed because not all our men are in sumo (yes he called it that once) formation.
- Lets try and pull back and regroup (most units surrounded on all sides)
- Where is our cavalry? (duh at the back where you left it when you sent the rest of the army charging in foolishly)

It actually makes me appreciate the fact that the guys in the first week had a reasonably good grasp of strategy by comparison.

[Knight_Yellow]

Quote[/b] (Stormer @ Sep. 12 2003,10:37)]
Quote[/b] ]stormer Trust me it was 19:30 when i logged on this morning iwas going to be a wee bit smarmy then i realised our bbc2 must have had different listing times

ok http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
its true

i was switching from the news to BBC2 so i could get some info on what battle it would be and the program had just started

7:30

[Swoosh So]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Spino]

I haven't seen the program (or its ratings) but it sounds like the producers are shooting themselves in the foot by having average joes walk in off the street and making them generals for a day. Based upon fellow Org members' comments it sounds like these players don't know a legion from a pack of unruly rugby players. If gross incompetence is the order of the day for the human players then who but the most ardent of strategy gaming and military history fans are going to watch? Watching fools make fools of themselves week after week is fine for reality TV but given the historical & pseudo-academic appeal of TC that sort of nonsense guarantees this program will lose its core audience in a very short while.

The geniuses behind this program better shape up and do away with the 'idiots vs. AI' format and instead adopt a 'competent human(s) vs. competent human(s)' approach by making the most out of the multiplayer capability of the game. Running color commentary as provided by a historian well versed with the battle in question would also do wonders for the educational value of this program.

It sounds like the only thing TC seems to be good for is showing off RTW.