unrealistic construction

[|OCS|Virus]

what is with the construction time? 4 years to build a port? I don't think so. has anyone else given thought about 16 yrs to build a fortress?{not possitive one yrs for that one} it was probly more like 6 or 7 I'd give em' that but most of these dates are rediculus. Anyone else given much thought to the time it takes?

[Marshal Murat]

I know it seems silly, I mean to build a swordsmith takes how many year I mean it would take maybe a month to build not a whole year or two To build a keep I mean would take a year at least, not 8 years. I would know a fortress would take long but ten years I belive, come on http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[BDC]

Including time to plan and get in specialists maybe? And get the avaliable labour and so forth.

[Praetorian]

I don't know but, 16 years for a fortress is quite a realistic number. But in viking invasion; 16 years for a basic farm? WTF?

[Marshal Murat]

Specialist labor, additional labor, well thats new, but for it to take eight years, please. Were you talking about the swordsmith, because I mean, that has to take at least a month, just get the materials, build the frame, thread the whicker though some of the wall, layer clay over it. Build the roof from shingles, and then build the anvil and other items, and get the worker and you've got a swordmaker.

[|OCS|Virus]

I was wondering if it would be unsportsman-like to tweak these around a little bit, to give it a more realistic feel. What are some opinions on that? Do you think it would be unfair to altar the game like that? it isnt like it is just me all factions would get the altaration. {partly because I wouldnt know how to make em' just for me LoL.}

[Quokka]

I think they are pretty realistic for the times. Nothing was built quickly back then. Some contemporary Cathedrals took hundreds of years to build.
Perhaps they are not spot on on all buildings, and may have skewed the times for game play reasons they are not far off.


Quote[/b] ]Specialist labor, additional labor, well thats new, but for it to take eight years, please. Were you talking about the swordsmith, because I mean, that has to take at least a month, just get the materials, build the frame, thread the whicker though some of the wall, layer clay over it. Build the roof from shingles, and then build the anvil and other items, and get the worker and you've got a swordmaker.

It seems as though you are thinking in modern terms, especially in the last sentence get the worker. These places had to be able to churn out enough weapons to equip an army in 1 year, so there is more than one guy banging out the swords. Swordsmiths weren't that common so the time to assemble or train enough people to the task would take that long. A typical apprenticeship today is 4 years, so from scratch to going concern it would still take 4 years today.

[BDC]

Yes, some cathedrals took whole reigns of kings to construct and were their 'gift to the world'.

[Cazbol]

Apart from Quokka, you guys seem to think that building a house in which a swordsmith could work is what made man capable of making swords. The construction time isn't so much about building the damn shack but more about developing the technology, and for that matter developing new principles of war and army organization. Why would upgrading a swordsmith to a swordsmith's workshop mean that you get chivalric men-at-arms instead of feudal-men-at-arms? Does the swordsmith's bigger shack inspire him to abolish the feudal system? Perhaps one should think of it as research as in Civilization rather than shackbuilding.

As for fortresses and cathedrals, some of them took centuries to complete.

[|OCS|Virus]

the construction of the actual building wouldnt take long, but the labor might be hard to find, but I think if a king needed a swordsmith he would have one a hell of a lot sooner than 4 years or someone wouldnt have a head for very long. besides, there would almost certainly be a non-government building if you will that already produced swords and what not these were just for the kings army though. they would probly buy out a blacksmiths workshop and give him a job makin' weapons for the king. which would make things go even faster, then someone else over the years is bound to make another and another. as for chivalric MMA and feudal MMA they would need better and more task-spacific tools to make certain types of armour, so when they upgraded got a new and better forge and tools, they would be able to turn out higher quality and different types of armour.

[ikki]

Quote[/b] (Quokka @ Aug. 31 2003,14:42)]It seems as though you are thinking in modern terms, especially in the last sentence get the worker. These places had to be able to churn out enough weapons to equip an army in 1 year, so there is more than one guy banging out the swords. Swordsmiths weren't that common so the time to assemble or train enough people to the task would take that long. A typical apprenticeship today is 4 years, so from scratch to going concern it would still take 4 years today.
While this might be true for the first swordsmith.. perhaps even longer, it doesent justify the long times for other smiths produced in other provinces http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[bighairyman]

well they had to take account of the troop movement. if you make a turn only let's said a month. then the troop movement won't make sense.


but 16 years to build a fortresse is a little bit stuip.

some castles onlt take a couple years

[|OCS|Virus]

Quote[/b] (bighairyman @ Aug. 31 2003,17:31)]but 16 years to build a fortresse is a little bit stuip.
still not to sure about that # but it was up there, I just think if the king sais I want a swordsmith built here NOW you arnt going to take 4 years. your going to buy one and stalk it with metal and workers. Not all swordsmiths were built by the king you know?

[Hakonarson]

Quote[/b] (ikki @ Aug. 31 2003,16:05)]
Quote[/b] (Quokka @ Aug. 31 2003,14:42)]It seems as though you are thinking in modern terms, especially in the last sentence get the worker. These places had to be able to churn out enough weapons to equip an army in 1 year, so there is more than one guy banging out the swords. Swordsmiths weren't that common so the time to assemble or train enough people to the task would take that long. A typical apprenticeship today is 4 years, so from scratch to going concern it would still take 4 years today.
While this might be true for the first swordsmith.. perhaps even longer, it doesent justify the long times for other smiths produced in other provinces http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Actually it pretty much justifies everything when you think of it as developing a technology rather than building a single constructino.

You have to find master smiths, journeyman smiths, apprenticeships - and not just a single example - enough to get a major industry going across an entire province.

Same for buildign a farm in VI - do you seriouly think you can ramp up agricultural production across and entire province in a year?

New methods could take generations to spread effectively for an industry - fromi farming to smithing.

If anything I'd say the construction times in the TW series are too short

[Si GeeNa]

Realism?

I left 4 fellas (depleted Turcoman unit) in Constantinople the last time to burn the entire place to ground. It was a full Fortress level province with Cathedral and lotsa other stuff.

They took 1 year to burn the darn place to ground. I bet they were kept really busy with the de-construction

Get real, its a game...

If it was real, it should have considered alot more variables. Its just a game and much have to be simplified for entertainment purposes.

Personally, i think that 16 years isnt too long. The game time progresses in years. 16 turns for the biggest castle is a small deal.

What next?

Entire stacks of 5,000++ troops moved across the Mediterranean (sp?) with a chain of Barques? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

That's so real http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Hakonarson]

It's fine if you consider a barque as a merchant fleet and not just a single ship

[karmastray]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Aug. 31 2003,18:43)]Same for buildign a farm in VI - do you seriouly think you can ramp up agricultural production across and entire province in a year?
I agree, I think 16 years is the ammount of time for the farms (can't be just one farm) to be truly productive and, hence, profitable.

In the terms of fortresses and swordsmiths, I think the same applies, plus it's a gameplay issue, do you really want to have full tech ten years after you start the game?

[el_slapper]

NotreDame Cathedral in Paris took 150 years. That was this times's standards. Construction times are too quick.

A swordsmith builds 60 swords a year, plus armors, plus training. It takes 2 months to build a good sword - even today. So you have 10 forges in parallel. Plus the training of the builders, plus the training of the future swordsmen trainers, plus the building of the training ground, plus the armormaker.....

4 years is a bargain.

[A.Saturnus]

I think the problem is that you can only build one building at a time. Imagine in Paris during the construction of Notre Dame, they couldn`t build another house http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
BTW, the Krak de Chevalier was build in two or three years.

[Hakonarson]

Yeah but building Krak de Chevalier doesn't make a fortress out of Tripoli (or whatever province it is in) - it takes more than 1 castle to fortify a whole province.

Again you need to consider that what you are doing is ramping up the defences for a very large area.

as for a swordsmith making 60 swords ......it might be better not to think of TW units as necessarily beign exactly that number of men - the numbers of men in units are quire preposterous - there were few if ay such units in the medieval time frame.

Insted it might be better to think of the units as beign representative of some troops in a historical context.

And it needent take 2 mnoths to crank out a sword - a competant smith can do a basic sword blade unfinished in a day or 2