View Full Version : new patch sp campiagn q
solypsist
12-19-2001, 02:53
Since installing the new patch I've played a few 1530 SP campaigns. Repeatedly, many of the starting clans are eliminated by Ronin activity/invasions. This was almost never the case previously.
Looking over the patch stats, there doesn't seem to be any mention of tweaking campaign data, so it's probably coincidence. Still, I'm curious to know if anyone else out there has seen new, recent Ronin aggression that could be attributed to the patch.
Kraellin
12-19-2001, 04:22
soly,
i know the mod team didnt have access to anything directly that would account for that. i can offer 4 possible explanations, coincidence, CA tweaked something, fixing bugs sometimes changes how other things work, and the ai reads stats before determining battle calculations. since stats were changed on many units, maybe the ronin are now figuring they've got a better chance. dunno for sure. these are all just guesses.
K.
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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.
Remember the testing team didn't have at hand files to tweak directly the sp campaign, on the other hand it had the projectiles and troopstat files to work upon very easily.
And focus was mainly put on MP.
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Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif
Hmmm ... but can you reincarnate those clans by shinobi actions?
[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 12-19-2001).]
solypsist
12-19-2001, 22:48
of course, these dead clasn sprang up, but it usually takes less than 5 years to get rid of them in the first place.
Sjakihata
12-19-2001, 23:32
Soly!
My ronins has also went CrAzY since the 1.02 patch come out!
I can now hardly eleminate an enemy clan before the ronins...! That was not the coincidence in the "old day" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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"-Know your self, know your enemy and your victory will be painless.
-Know the weather, know the terrain and your victory will be complete."
-Sun Tzu(Wu), The Art of War.
I've noticed the ai clans having a lot of difficulty with the ronins, but I'm playing a modified campaign with lowered invasion thresholds and I thought that was the cause. It looks like the ai is not leaving enough troops in conquered provinces to prevent revolts or it is invading with too few troops to begin with. I intend to try a campaign with raised invasion thresholds.
MizuYuuki ~~~
I always start over if the ronin take over. It ruins my game to have the last "daimyo" be a bunch of bandits. That isnt any fun.
Quote Originally posted by MIZILUS:
I always start over if the ronin take over. It ruins my game to have the last "daimyo" be a bunch of bandits. That isnt any fun.[/QUOTE]
But face it, it's really hard to avoid killing those Daimyos and heirs. Their generals have really short life span, since AI doesn't really take good care of those units.
Murmandamus
12-20-2001, 16:07
I don't think the unit stat changes have affected the ronins. I just attacked a ronin province and during the battle I had 1 YS go front on with an enemy YS and I had a unit of No-Dachi attack from the rear. So it was 1 unit of Ronin YS between YS and ND. No upgrades etc for any of the units. The ND were on attack at will and the YS were on hold formation/position.
When my units fled there were 7 ND left and about 15 of my YS but there were still ~25 of the Ronin YS left. No wonder the weakened AI armies can't beat the Ronins.
But Yuuki, aren't those invasion thresholds just for AI Daimyos invading/attacking human players as opposed to other AI Daimyos? Least this is what it seems to suggest in the actual text file...?!
If not, then yes, raising the invasion thresholds would be the solution. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
If they are however, then raising the threshold values will just mean that they won't attack human players very often... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
?!
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=MizuDoc Otomo=
=Clan Takiyama=
[This message has been edited by DoCToR (edited 12-20-2001).]
I don't know Doc. It's 1545 in my modified Takeda campaign, and I just had 11 provinces revolt against ai clans in one season.
MizuYuuki
Is it because the AI's daimyo got killed?
Massive revolts in a large empire after the demise of a respectful Daimyo, is a FEATURE in WE.
Yes, many of these, although not all, are Mori loyalist revolts since the clan has been resurrected.
MizuYuuki ~~~
solypsist
12-21-2001, 00:36
i'm not saying the ronin troop stats were different, just that the provinces that are ronin seem to be a bit more agressive in taking out clans; usually ronin never really invaded but just defended, now it seems ronin are constantly invading - and winning!
maybe Kraellin is on to something with his remark...
Konnichiwa,
Indeed, it seems that the AI reads the stats. Thus it knows when it could win something or not. Field a weak musketunit vs a very strong Nod (but make the nod as fast as a snail): the nods will route as they 'know' they'll never reach the guns to slay them.
The stats for 1.02 were indeed focussed on online play, but SP is extensively tested. Both customs, historical battles and full campaigns. Changes that would be great for MP but wrecked SP aren't implemented in the final release.
Very surprisingly, the AI became 'smarter'.
It still uses the same 'rules' and it will of course still make the same mistakes. Yet the AI is capable to hurt a human player a lot.
Those that want to compare the old with the new stats, should download 10xSwap.zip. 10xSwap is a very simple bat file. The 1.01 and 1.02 stats are backed up in a sub-directory, so you don't have to be afraid for loss of statfiles.
Any stat will work in any offline and friendly online games. A restart of the game is required when you change the number of men in a unit (which is the case if you change from 1.01 to 1.02 and vice versa). Changes to other parameters only require a restart of a battle.
The appearant fixes for SP are: fixed 3 walk speeds, hence fixed fatigue bug, availabilty to edit troop# and fire in rain properties (many thanks to Target sama to add that).
Fixes to MP are: same as above and a new default troopstat.
Have fun.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Forgive me, as I currently do not have WE/MI. But I have noticed in regular STW that ronin provinces will attack - especially out of the areas that produce monks. I have never seen them take out a clan though.
In any case, is it possible, that with the relative strengthening of the monk in the new stats, that the monks are now more effective in the auto-calc results?
What I am getting at is that it may have something to do with the fact that Ronin armies seem to produce different units than the clans - and perhaps the stat changes have shifted the auto-calc balance toward the ronins...
This is, of course, pure conjecture...
This might make sense. But I also notice that not only the ronins, but also the clans, are putting up a more decent fight against human player. They are producing more troops that can really give you a headache.
TosaInu, did the new patch make any changes on the "anti-unit" data?
Since AI tend to produce "counter" units depend on the anti-unit data, a sensible change on the "anti-unit" might explain why AI now seem smarter.
What I'm seeing is very aggressive ai behavior all around. The ai attacks with so few troops in most cases that it can't possibly prevent a subsequent revolt, and aggressive ronin armys come back immediately. I'm seeing an average of 8 to 10 attacks and 4 to 5 revolts every season in my present campaign. In addition to that, as long as I stay above the invasion threshold, the ai almost never attacks me, and that's easy to do because the largest ai army I've seen is 800 men with the average being about 300 men. All this aggression actually makes the game easier for the human player.
Jaguara,
The basic units YA, YS, SA, and WM are unchanged in combat stats. The ND was moved back to it's STW value, but they are not present in the early part of the game. The NI was strengthened, but that's not around either. I'm not sure that the ai uses foot speed in it's combat assessment. If it does, then there might be an advantage to WM and YA in there. I notice that the ai will still chase a YC with a YS unit, but the YC has a much larger speed advantage over the YS now. That suggests the ai is not looking at relative speed in that situation.
Gothmog,
No change was made to the anti_units file.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Konnichiwa,
The Ronin provinces with monks do also have archers. WM aren't relatively stronger, monks have the same stats as in STW, while some of their counter units (Nag and JHC have become stronger).
The early campaign has quite some YA, YA had armor 2, now they have 0. So they'll be killed by lsam quite easily. So a Ronin army with both WM and lsam will feel very superior when mainly YA armies are around.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Quote Originally posted by TosaInu:
Konnichiwa,
The Ronin provinces with monks do also have archers. WM aren't relatively stronger, monks have the same stats as in STW, while some of their counter units (Nag and JHC have become stronger).
The early campaign has quite some YA, YA had armor 2, now they have 0. So they'll be killed by lsam quite easily. So a Ronin army with both WM and lsam will feel very superior when mainly YA armies are around.
[/QUOTE]
Puzz3D: I don't know about MI, but in regular STW, there are monk production facilities in several ronin provinces at the start of the game.
Tosa: I meant just early on in the campaign...at that time the counter-units to the monks are not yet available. In relative strength, I meant only because I thought I heard that the YA were weakened, and I know the ND were weakened.
This would only help explain part of this if the cases of Ronin eliminating clans were occuring in the relatively early stages of the game.
Konnichiwa,
ND are like they were in STW, so I wouldn't say weakened. Also the YA are 'only' weaker in their protection vs missilefire.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
solypsist
12-21-2001, 11:11
wow. so far my observations on ronin have been met with acceptance, twice!
besides the apparently new aggressive campaign banners, there was also the time i implied that ronin archers might be betetr marksmen than their clan counterparts (you can find that link in the older stuff).
i guess Ronin is where it's at
Yes Ronin can often kick the AI ass! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Especially Oda, he often gets nearly anhiliated by the particularly strong WM-driven AI armies from Yamashiro and Ise http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
If you have hecose's campaign editor, it's worth decreasing the size of the AI armies situated there just to give ODa a reasonable chance. This was no different pre-patch though, ODa still got his ass wiped very early on....
Yuuki, what happens if you increase the opp_invasion_threshold values from the original file? Or for that matter the major_invasion_threshold values? Since in the campaigns i sent you i had significantly decreased these...
I totally agree with you that at the moment the increased aggressiveness of the AI makes it a lot easier for the human player. Initially, as text in these files suggests, i thought these values were solely for the AI making attacks versus the human player...but it seems this may not be the case..
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Erado San
12-21-2001, 22:27
Well, as has been said before, the troopstats and projectiles files are the only ones that have been modified, so any difference in aggression comes from calculations that the AI makes before attacking. Apparently they don't leave enough troops to counter a revolt.
In the final stages of testing for the 1.02 patch I have played several campaigns with different starting points, and I never noticed this issue.
I'll try and contact CA members to see what action could best be taken.
solypsist
12-21-2001, 22:32
i wasn't complaining, besides the 1530 campaign the ronin are largely minor, so it isn't a big problem. just an observation and question to see if my situation was singular
Erado,
Sorry to confuse the issue here. I'm playing a campaign with lowered invasion thresholds. I'll go back an play the same campaign with the standard invasion thresholds, and see how it differs.
I replayed my Takeda campagin with standard invasion thresholds, and the ai accumulates much larger armies now. Also, the front is much more stable. Oda still fights the ronin, and was beaten down to a single province by them before they seemed to run out of steam. After a few years building up again, Oda successfully struck at Mori and Imagawa, but ultimately was eliminated because his production base was too small to fight over a long term.
At least for Takeda, playing with lowered invasion thresholds makes the game easier for the human player. I prefer the standard invasion thresholds.
MizuYuuki ~~~
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