New Unit

[alman9898]

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/baraxe.jpg
Barbarian Axemen
Axemen are close combat warriors. It is their task to break open an enemy line or formation so that their brother warriors can exploit the breach.

Axemen are powerful warriors chosen for their size and strength to wield the heavy francisca, a single-headed axe that can split a shield, cuirass, helmet or the skull beneath with a single blow. They also carry heavy shields (to bash opponents as much as for protection) and wear helmets but only light armour. Speedy charges are important, but there is a degree of bravado too, in showing contempt for the enemy's best efforts

Roughly organised into warbands, they are used to hack a way into an enemy line and open a hole for their comrades to exploit. This role is risky, but it is seen as heroic and an opportunity for glory and greatness not to be squandered. Axemen are very brave and are not usually disheartened by their own casualties.

[Hakonarson]

What societies in the RTW timeframe ever used anything like this???
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Sounds good.

[Catiline]

Knorck 2 foot of them and they're ready made for dwarves in a LOTR mod....

[redrooster]

Perhaps they are time travelling franks?

[Kongamato]

Could you guys try to make the thread title something other than "New Unit" every time? From the forum index all of these threads will look the same if they are titled this way.

Anyways, I like the unit.

[Hurin_Rules]

The Franks did use the Francisca (hence their name), but that was much later. I don't recall any Germanic tribes from the period in question using axes-- it was mostly spears (and swords for the nobles).

[Galestrum]

Beyond any and all of the above, wasnt the Francisa only used by the franks and secondly, was not the francisca a "throwing axe" hurled before melee, as oppossed to an actual "battle axe" for melee?

[AvramL]

The Francisca was both a throwing and hacking axe and was probably used widely among the western Germanic peoples of the Rhine region, though it is the Franks that are most assiocated with them. As for the time period, one would be correct in saying that the use of the Francisca most likely didn't start in earnest until sometime later than the time covered in RTW.
Archaeology shows that German warriors during the timeframe of RTW were primarily armed with medium length stabbing/throwing spears of varying quality, bows (some very similar to later English longbows), seaxes (solo edged knives) and the occasional sword (about one in 10-20 warriors, a typical warband).

[Krasturak]

Gah

This new unit is ... well, a Dream Come True for Krast.

Just think

Entire companies, armies, hundreds of thousands of vicious axe-wielding warriors

Just like Krast's upbringing on Tarranak.

Gnish Gnash Gni

[Hakonarson]

The francisca is apparently almost useless as a close combat weapon - the peculiar shape that makes it good as a throwing axe is balanced very badly for anything except throwing.

Moreover it's expensive as a throwing weapon too - a javelin can be as simple as a stick with a point carved onto one end - and on upwards in complexity of course.

It's easy to learn to use a javelin, and it will always strike head first

When Franks weer using francisca's very closely related German tribes such as the Alamanni and Burgundians were using conventional javelins and spears, and even the Franks tehmselves eventually gave up on francisca's before adopting cavalry.

as a weapon it was certainly distinctive, but apparently not all that effective - or at least not any more so than more conventional contemporary equivalents.

[Hurin_Rules]

I think the problem is, CA is trying to give the Germans some decent heavy infantry. In reality, the Germans were always inferior to the Romans in terms of armor and weaponry (thought he gap did close near the end of the empire). Can we make any suggestions as to how to balance realism and playability here?

I suggest giving the Germans better cavalry and skirmishers. Also, for heavy infantry you might be able to make whole units out of German nobles, who would have heavier armour and weapons.

[Galestrum]

Thats what i recall as well Hak. As far as German units, from what i remember, they had some of the best heavy cavalry available in W Europe at the time. If you gave them low support cost and low cost infantry, as well as perhaps the ability for ambushes in forests and the like there shouldnt be any real need for balance - just different tactics

[Sjakihata]

DIFFERENT TACTIS

That is what lacks in all TW

Every faction is being balanced with regards to UNITS, not TACTICS

I want TACTICS and not balanced units... gah

[Shahed]

Agreed. Who cares about balance, show me a memorable game where you can actually apply some strategy. Not end up with identical armies, and 3 tactics which everyone uses.

[Spino]

Considering that we have been given yet another generic barbarian unit I imagine CA is trying to save themselves some time and headaches by making the Celts, Germans and Britons virtually indistinguishable from one another. What else can one infer when confronted with units like 'Barbarian Axemen', 'Barbarian Archers' and 'Barbarian Cavalry'?

This may be premature and entirely unfair to CA but given what we've seen so far I don't expect to see a generous spattering of unique units for each of the northern factions. On the other hand who knows? Maybe we've only been given a sneak preview of the basic units common to those factions and they're saving the more interesting stuff as we get closer to release. After all, CA did say to expect far more faction specific units in RTW than in the previous TW games.

[Hurin_Rules]

The Germans should have good cavalry and cheaper units than the Romans. Other than that, they should be outclassed by Roman Legionaires in terms of armor and weapons. This would mean that the Germans play much like the Egyptians or other Muslim factions in MTW: They can't stand toe to toe with the heaviest Catholic units, but have to overwhelm them with numbers and superior tactics. This was the way it was in the ancient world too-- the Germans got their butts handed to them for centuries before they finally trounced Rome.

[Praetorian]

Quote[/b] (AvramL @ Sep. 01 2003,21:28)]The Francisca was both a throwing and hacking axe and was probably used widely among the western Germanic peoples of the Rhine region, though it is the Franks that are most assiocated with them.
WOOHOO THAT'd BE ME THE DUTCH


-Michael

[Nelson]

The real issue is having homogeneous unit types where they did not in fact exist. AFAIK, Celts fought with whatever they chose. There were generally no all sword or all axe or all spear units among “barbarians". Roman and Greek formations required uniform weapons but warrior clans did not. The single weapon unit appears in the interests of design simplicity as it has since Shogun. I have always wanted to raise units of troops with mixed arms in circumstances where they were the norm historically.

[AvramL]

Damn good point Nelson

As for the German faction in RTW, I think cheaper units (most are effictively tribal militia armed with spears and shields afterall, though tougher than mediteranean militia because of their harsh life style) and the need to hone good tactics are the way to go. In this time period, the heavily armed and armoured Legionaries simply outclassed their tribal opponents and rarely lost when they went toe to toe. As for cavalry, the tribal peoples of northern europe rarely used cavalry en masse as the choice to fight on horseback or not was usually up to the individual warrior, but given the expense and limited effectiveness of cavalry during this period, warriors would usually fight on foot, unless the situation strongly favored swift mobility. Even then, the cavalry of northern europe could hardly be considered "heavy" in the modern sense as that implies shock use, instead they would have been more like skirmishers. However, it is mentioned that Celtic and Germanic cavalry was recruited by the Romans and thought to be very good, this could be an indication that the tribal sense of war fit in well with what cavalry was usually tasked with doing (raiding, skirmishing etc.).
One thing I hope, but doubt to see in RTW is appropriate clothing for the Germanic faction. This would usually be simple woolen trousers and tunics (mostly in earth tones) with many men wearing cloaks, some warriors also fought naked, and some wore animal furs over their clothes for added protection.

[Aelwyn]

I'd like it to be somewhat historically accurate, but I couldn't care less when it comes to MP, which is what I play. This could be a good unit if its upgrades don't cost too much, or its base stats are good enough, one of the two. Otherwise it'll end up like urban militia. Although it says their morale was pretty good, so overall it could be a pretty good unit.

[Nowake]

It is not hard to create a pretty good unit, AvramL, but to make it really usefull and acurate takes more than that. What I can say about this unit is that CA wanted the equivalent of the Clansmen and Woodsmen, and they invented a small unit. But I doubt it is worth seeing it in battle in the german lines.