Time Commanders

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Tell me everyone saw Time Commanders. It seriously kicked ass The Elephants, oh my god. They wrecked the Roman Legions I few other units i saw were:

Numidian Cavalry: Really cool, also kicked ass

Spanish Heavy Cavalry: Some got routed, still were good though.

Iberian Heavy Infantry: Seriously Hard men.

Balearic Slingers: Looked quite dangerous actually but we i didn'tn really see them in action.

I think another unit was called Numidian spears who really got into the fray and held there spears in a different manner to most.

Thats all i can remember. I'm still in shock The presenter needed a good beating though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Mr Baine]

I caught the last 20 minutes (I was constructing an MFI flat pack) and it actually wasn't bad at all. R:TW is looking very good, I was very impressed and especially at this early stage, so what we should get when it goes Gold should be even better.

[Shahed]

I hope someone will get some screenies or the video in mpg for those who could not watch it. Sounds awesome Thx for the info.

[the Black Prince]

OMG it was sooo good,
can't wait for Rome now, or next thursday at least

[Revenant69]

Yeah i wouldn't mind taking a peek at what happened during that show. I dont get that channel here. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[frogbeastegg]

It was damn good TV, for once the licence fee wasn't wasted

On elephants - did anyone else hate the way they pushed the infantry back like they were on roller-skates? The elephants charge, a couple of men die and loads more just slide back across the ground without moving out of the ready stance. It looked more than odd.

What did other people think of the music? That was the real in battle music because Jeff Van Dyck was in the credits as doing it I thought it was quite good but I can't remember any of it now so it may not be as catchy as the Viking music, then again I haven't just fought a long battle to it

I'm going to post a more in-depth analysis later when I've watched my taped version several times. I shall put it in the coliseum but right now I'll talk Time Commanders anywhere http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Any questions people want answering specifically? I will do my best to answer

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

The presenter was a prat, they could tried to get someone a bit more interested...also the fellow from Sandhurst was rather liberal with 'crap'.

Otherwise it was rather good, though looking at it I doubt my computer will be able to handle battles in Rome TW.

The elephants seemed very (too) effective, also the cavalry didnt seem to get too tired running around in the snow. As far as I remembre they didnt show the Belearic slingers except in the unit descriptions in the beginning. Its also I shame I think they didnt describe any of the Roman units like they did the Carthaginians, though I suppose they will do that next week (Mons Grapicus (sp?), Romans v Scots).

[Nowake]

how was the fog depicted? It should have been alot.

[Knight_Yellow]

any1 notice how the AI sucked?

i mean come on it was gay.

pit there wits against a machine with the knowings of a general

should be

luaghed there asses of at the vending machine with a RTW disc crammed into the coin slot

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ Sep. 04 2003,22:01)]how was the fog depicted? It should have been alot.
Honestly I don't remember there being fog, maybe there was a little but nothing like Shoguns Pea Soupers (for non Brits that's a very thick fog which you can barely see through). I was paying more attention to the units though, I shall watch it again tomorrow and look for fog.

o_loompah - I noticed the fatigue too, the cavalry should have been exhausted after all the fighting they did at the start, in fact they should have been tired before the fighting began since they had to move a long way. Maybe they were playing with fatigue off?

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I forgot to watch it NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Marshal Murat]

Hey can someone fill me in on the battle? Can't seem to find any info.

[ShadesWolf]

Totally Awesome.

The Carthagian units look very strong and quite varied.

I agree its a pity we didnt see the slingers in action, but I think that that was more to do with the morons playing the game.....

Those pike units looked very good......

Very interesting battle, it looks like it was almost two to one in number snad the cavalry seemed to be quite importants once they had removed the roman cav.

I also liked the river crossing, so u could almost say no more bridges, just hope the fords dont become bridges.

the battle terrain seemed to hide the units quite well, thus allowing for a nice ambush.

The AI did seem to suck a little....

[Pitt_Slayer]

yeah its brillant http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif the AI sucks no surprise there i was LMAO at the routing spainish just like mtw http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
the elephants were cool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Custor]

The programme was dreadful, but the Rome looked very nice.

Presenter lacked charisma, didn't say what they show was about, made the geeky contestents look sad and geeky.

The intelligence brief of you've got really good cavalry, they've got crap cavalry. What notes have ou made?
Erm I think our cavlary is a strong point....?

Saw nothing of the terrain and nothign of the deployment of the forces. The table and woods bloxks were somehting to put your tea on.
The division of command -
General - attack with the cavalry.
Sub General - erm attack with the cavalry please. All of them?
General - yes all of them.
Sub General - all of them please.

AI? Just A.

These noobs charged their Carthaginian cavalry into the Roman foot without even bothering to pin the infantry front line. Then withdrew them. Then erm attacked some more Roman cavalry. Combined arms past them by. Don't even bother to ask about skirmishing or ranged combat.

It did look nice though. Surprised the Elephants lasted so long. A face full of pilums wouldn't do much for the Ele's health surely. Triarii, now theres a tempting target.

[Shahed]

Is it reasonably realistic ?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I have just heard word from the BBC website that the presenter has been executed forthwith for his overdose on make up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Oh, and i liked the lady on the team saying Is Hannibal one of Horses? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ Sep. 04 2003,22:21)]Is it reasonably realistic ?
Yes....and no. It's about the same as the last two TWs in that it is obviously a game and not quite realistic but it wasn't too bad. I think really the best way to describe it is think medieval but with 3d units. The main problems I thought were with animation that will hopefully be sorted out later, rollerskating Romans had better not make the final release

Hannibal isn't one of the horses he's an earthworm on the left flank, it's perfectly obvious if you look http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Vacuity]

There wasn't any fog to talk of, I distinctly remember that the screen showed the terrain way, way off into the distance.
But my God It was gorgeous
I sat and drooled for the full hour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Can't wait for the game to be released...

Hopefully they'll improve the AI from its performance there, it didn't seem to do anything more than walk forward.
Also I was under the impression that Elephants were very effective in historical terms and as the Romans weren't equipped with fiery pigs in that battle of course the elephants did well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Manji]

I dunno if anyone has already answered but here it goes:
Did anyone recorded it and put the show online? If no, is anyone intending to do that? I only have BBC Prime and BBC world and wish i could see it too... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
If yes, just tell me where to get it

(Sorry for the crappy english)

[Miltiades]

I caught the show, and R:TW is looking sweet. Some dodgy graphics ( the horses ) but still plenty of time to iron them out before the release.

Gotta say I really liked the look of those pikemen. Holding opposing melee troops at a distance while slaughtering them, oh the fun I could have Elephants looked like a pretty effective unit as well.

As far as the AI goes, I'm guessing ( and hoping ) it was set to easy, but thats only fair. The team didn't have the many years of experience of Shogun and Medieval that some of us do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif High AI would have made for a pretty short show probably They were still outnumbered about 2 - 1 though, which even on easy AI is a fair challenge for an inexperienced player, and these were flung in at the deep end as far as battles go. ( When we were playing the games for the first time, usually small skirmishes came up before battles of that scale ) They used ( really ) basic tactics, sprung their ambush too early and stuff, but the basics were there, and if they were regular players they would probably do alright. We'll have to wait and see how the other teams do before we can really judge on it. Roll on Mons Graupius next Thursday ( Maybe the host will have changed by then )

[Kraxis]

How did the legionaries look? Fair enough? Hopefully no lorica segmentata... hopefully some Triarii were there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

The Numudian Cavalry, were they skirmishers or melee? If skrimishers, could they throw on the move?

How does that pike-holding-distance-thing work? Are they impervious to enemy melee attacks unless they can get udner the pikes?

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Sep. 04 2003,21:04)]any1 notice how the AI sucked?
Sounds like the AI was realistic then, cos the Romans sucked at the Trebia, they just forded the river and charged en-masse at the Carthaginians. No tactics, no brains. If that's what the AI did, then it got it right.

IIRC, there were some 40,000 Romans at Trebia, yet unlike the later debacle at Cannae they did eventually manage to break the Carthaginian centre, but only after their defeat was assured. Only 10,000 escaped.

[Pitt_Slayer]

the AI was crap like mtw if they tried them tatics on mp they wouldnt last 2 mins BUT remember its a tv program about tatics and what we are all forgetting about is: in real battles orders take time to be excuted not in split seconds.
i was pissed off cos i thought it would be 2 teams playing each other not 1 team vs AI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
the tea board thing looked crap to us BUT how many people watch time commanders and how many play the game?
the game its self looks good and its going to be big http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
i can just see it now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif noobs on mp rushing with elephants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif hehe wheres my spear units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
anyway its good for TW and thats good for us

[Fearless]

I've got the video. Got the digital camera. See what I can do over the weekend. Thought the river crossing great. Waist deep in water.........that needs to be photographed

http://www.kgfs.org.uk/rtwpics.htm
http://www.kgfs.org.uk/rtwpics2.htm
http://www.kgfs.org.uk/rtwbodicea.htm

[Dr_No]

must admit RTW looked sweet- can't wait for this one to hit the shelves-- imagine if they'd brand the show with the engine think of the marketing potential- as it is only people who visit this forum know the link.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

the battle was cool - except the roman AI was absolute pants- we could see huge roman infantry columns just standing around waiting to get charged.. thoughts the humans only pulled it off cos the AI was so dumb

in a nutshell they sent hanibals cavalry to either wing and hid them behind tress, waited for the romans to march through the gorge and then charged way to early.. saved by the elephants who charged through the middle and took on the heavy infantry- didn't it seem like they picked the best unit to charge out of luck? (my view is that those two people sitting at the screens actually did all the hard parts identifying which unit to charge and at what angle)

was nice to see the triarii stay to the bitter end, but the romans legionnaires looked good but fought like pansies...(also they made it sound like the roman soldiers would've only won by supperior numbers) no units supporting each other, no cohesion in the unit columns...makes me want to play the carthaginians with all their cool new units rather than the romans...

There should be team from the .org that they play against- lets hope BBC set up a load of custom battle releases for RTW as a little for the people who buy it

next week Romans Vs Woad Warriors of Britain http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Lord De Moray]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Sep. 04 2003,18:59)]How did the legionaries look? Fair enough? Hopefully no lorica segmentata... hopefully some Triarii were there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

They were there and NO segmentata.

The Numudian Cavalry, were they skirmishers or melee? If skrimishers, could they throw on the move?

They looked like they could throw javelins then go in hand to hand.

How does that pike-holding-distance-thing work? Are they impervious to enemy melee attacks unless they can get udner the pikes?

One shot certainly showed them holding the legionaries back at the length of the pike.
Elephants, great on impact but looked silly when they just pushed men around as if they were on ice. Well it was winter http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

There was no fog, but it wouldnt make much sense to have a white screen a la shogun on tv now would it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The numidians looked a bit like jinettes in terms of waht they did (not appearance).

In defence of the lady she asked if Hannibal was a horse - ahe obviously meant if Hannibbal was one of the cav units, and I thought she was better than the two generals (please send the inf forward/ charge the cav), the two sub generals seem to have done most of the actual work of deciding what to attack with what unit.

The AI was poor, I doubt it would have done this even in MTW, I suspect that it was either on easy, or they were trying to play it like the Romans actually did - march up like a bunch of Daleks without any scouting.

[Kraxis]

Thank you De Moray.

So did you see how the legionaries killed pikemen?

[Lord De Moray]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Sep. 05 2003,04:52)]Thank you De Moray.

So did you see how the legionaries killed pikemen?
No just saw the legionaries falling at pike length. Bloody good touch though. I have to wonder if they were caught pikes up just what would happen. There was a scene when the cavalry flank charged the legionaries and needless to say wasted them, but charging on to a second unit they were ready for them a lowered their spears, at which point the players gave the order to withdraw, just in case........wise. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Hope this helps

[katar]

just watched the show.

must say i thoroughly enoyed it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

the presenter (total @#*$$8 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif ) was totally out of his depth and by the end of the show was mostly keeping his yap shut. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

the two military historians (have seen them contribute on several military programmes, in topics ranging from early horse archers to the battle for Stalingrad) were good and provided a lot more depth and background to the original historical battle and how the modern players worked things out when in the same situation.

at the end of the show the historians re-enacted the real battle in a couple of minutes using the counters on the table.

apart from a few minutes at the start that is the only real time that the game table was used, nearly all of the byplay was on a very large screen and also on several smaller monitors, the players were able zoom in and out on the battle field as in MTW.

we only saw the slingers when the battle was won, looked like they were mopping up stragglers.

basically we got to see the edited highlights of the battle, damned good highlights though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

that`s me hooked anyway. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Red Peasant]

I didn't see the show [no TV see], so all this talk of pikemen is confusing me. What were Macedonian pikemen doing at the Trebia? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

And as for elephants, I thought they all died in the Alps crossing, or very soon after. No mention of them at the Trebia IIRC in the sources.

[Mak]

Awesome the game anyway

not really the program (where did they get the presenter????) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I will comment on the game only

As mentioned serious lack of AI (none just walked forward, very worrying&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif:mecry:

The Roman cavalry was a light horseman only.
The spanish light cavalry was very similar to jinettes and they also had heavy cavalry. All the horses looked like they had girraffe necks very wierd please sort this out it looks awful http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

The spanish pikemen were the excellent.

I thought the elephants were too powerful, and okay they charged heavy infantry (this is what they are for, weak vs light infantry as the program said) they still should have died a bit quicker.

The most scary bit was how much the cavalry did not tire, i hope this was turned off

Anyhoo the game looked cool but the AI sucked and the program was very GEEKY, and i am sorry but it did not need to be. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[MonkeyMan]

Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ Sep. 05 2003,13:57)]I didn't see the show [no TV see], so all this talk of pikemen is confusing me. What were Macedonian pikemen doing at the Trebia? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

And as for elephants, I thought they all died in the Alps crossing, or very soon after. No mention of them at the Trebia IIRC in the sources.
Monkey quickly reads up on the subject:


Quote[/b] ]The Carthaginian armies in Spain, though hardly uniform, were generally composed of both African and Spanish contingents. The African professional troops were considered far more valuable than the Iberian tribal levies.

The heavy infantry spearmen of Libya formed the backbone. They were armed with pikes or long spears, and probably fought in a formation similar to the Macedonian phalanx. The Libyan infantry proved to be a match for Rome's legionaries throughout the Second Punic War. These spearmen were augmented by Balearic slingers, renowned as the finest missile troops in the world at the time, along with Numidian archers and javelinmen.

It was, however, the mounted arm of the Carthaginian army that was decidedly superior to its Roman counterpart. The javelin-armed Numidians were far and away the finest light cavalry in the western world. Those superb horsemen provided Carthage the margin of victory time and again. Heavy cavalry, in the form of Libyan-Phoenician horsemen, though few in numbers, provided shock action to complement the fire of the Numidians.

A key element of the Carthaginian army was its elephants. Hannibal took elephants across the Alps, but most died on the journey or after the battle of the Trebbia.

[Custor]

Al ways thought that the Carthaginians fought the same was as the Greeks with spears, not pikes.

[Tempiic]

Somewhere after the Macedonian victory and following dominance over Athens and Thebes the Greeks started to upgrade their hoplites (spears, heavy armoured, heavy round shields) to falanxists (pikes, lighty armoured, bit smaller and much lighter round shields)

Ironic thing is that hoplites would have had a far better chance against legionaires than falanxists did...

[Swoosh So]

mak how can you say the elephants are too effective? we dont know their unit cost and they never killed many men as far as i could see, more a unit for holding up other units i think, also they are prone to panic which we never saw in the battle.

[Colonel Fatlad]

Anyone else think the horses looked like llamas?

Apart from that, I'm really looking forward to R:TW now. It makes crap telly though.

[Mephisto]

Has anyone managed to record the show in mpeg/divx ?
Surely I'm not the only one who would like to download it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Boohugh]

It certainly looked good apart from a few glitches such as the sliding romans.

During the unit descriptions, the Numidian cavalry were said to not suffer from fatigue as much as most troops, so i don't think that was a problem, and they did start to tire very slightly towards the end of their long charge on the left flank, which i think the two historians mentioned very briefly at the time so i dont think we need to worry about that.

As for the AI, i very much doubt it was actually computer controlled as the two historians seemed to know exactly what it was going to do. I think it is possible that another technician as the computer controllers were called was commanding the romans and was doing as he was told by the producer of the program. I'm sure the game AI will be much better. It must also be remembered that the TV program is meant to be historical, and so they would want the computer AI (if thats what it was) to act exactly as the romans did at Trebia.

[Revenant69]

Quote[/b] ]Surely I'm not the only one who would like to download it


I'm with you on that one as I dont get BBC2 here unfortunately http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[jimmy]

by heck your an hard bunch to please http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif to be fare to the contestants i dont think there RTS buffs. amateure dramtics springs to mind.lets hope it lasts more than one series.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Mephisto]

up

[Kraxis]

Did anyone notice a difference in the Principes and Hastati?

I mean the description of the Principes at the com have them as spearmen, which they were not.

[Dhepee]

Is there any way to see the show in the US? Or is there any word that a US cable channel, discovery, history, etc, will be picking it up? From what it sounds like, if it were in the US it would be great to have R Lee Ermey host.

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (Red Peasant @ Sep. 05 2003,07:57)]And as for elephants, I thought they all died in the Alps crossing, or very soon after. No mention of them at the Trebia IIRC in the sources.
No, some of the elephants certainly made it across the alps, if I remember Livy correctly.

The most famous use of war elephants would have to be that of Hannibal and his armies crossing the Alps to attack the Romans. In reality, most of Hannibal's elephants died in that crossing or shortly thereafter. He did manage to replace many of them but they only played a pivotal role in one battle -- Trebia River. By the time Hannibal met the Romans at the last battle of Zama they had learned to create formations to herd the elephants through their ranks. The elephants that didn't pass through were as much a danger to their own army as to the enemy.

http://www.ehistory.com/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=2

[Fearless]

I forgot about this topic here and did manage to take a few pics from the TV so go here to veiw 1) http://www.kgfs.org.uk/rtwpics.htm

This link is of the Elephant attack.http://www.kgfs.org.uk/rtwpics2.htm

ENJOY http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Mephisto]

What about video ?
Still no feedback ?

[Sir Robin]

Yet another reason to not like living in the US.

I guess I will just have to watch another show about immature men and women competing over an unemployed plumber for money.

American TV: The pinnacle of western civilization it is not.

[mystic brew]

EPISODE TWO

oh, it's a changed episode from the advertised one. On live now

It's Boudicca's Iceni revolt against the Romans. The battle of watling street.

War chariots, dude

[mystic brew]

The team are The Romans, and are looking inept.

First suggestion, outnumbered 6:1, let's abandon the high ground, cos our heavy infantry is good

Dur.

[mystic brew]

Boudicca's forces have chariots, axemen, warriors, beserkers and large forces of cavalry.

This looks to me like the team should draw in tight and conduct a disciplined defence, forcing the numerous but cahotic Iceni onto their heavy legions. The Iceni are spread wide and thin.

The team are ignoring the chariots. The team might be tempted out by the chariots.

Next incisive suggestion. lets split up our outnumbered forces. One woman has the right idea, 'let them come to us', but the team don't have a co-ordinated plan.

[Knight_Yellow]

it was a massacre

at 1 point the drew the tortoise formation against an enemy charge http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

then sent all there calvarly to kill the leader who didnt even matter.


funny as hell though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[mystic brew]

Battle review.

early stages.

DEPLOYMENT: The legionarinaries, backed up with the Roman archers are going to take the fight downhill to the Iceni. No infantry reserves, with the cavalry as backup.

The Roman's look spread to thin. WAAAAY too thin. piecemeal. They are moving down the hill and are scattered. No front line depth. Any cavalry flanking will f**king murder this rabble.

The hordes of Brits look very cool. The british infantry is moving up. Where is the cavalry?

One of the generals has realised that the brits are trying to tempt them out.

[mystic brew]

Hee. the chariots have broken the thin legionary lines and the archers are firing on the melee.

Now the infantry are approaching. And the Romans are all over the place.

One unit of Legionaries is attacked in open ground and then the team throw all their infantry

Oh. Dear. The Iceni cavalry are just massacring exposed archers.

And the team is playing the blame game.


the Romans are isolated, and surrounded.

[mystic brew]

Trying to kill Boudicca now.

The chariots are walking all over the cavalry sent after them, and the poor bloody infantry are running. Don't blame 'em.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

What the hell was with that team? They were crap God i laughed my ass off http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif At one point the Roman infantry and aux cav with being crushed on all sides and one of the women Generals said Couldn't we withdraw them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[mystic brew]

there was no plan. Nothing. I feel for the leftenants. they were hung out to dry by the moronic gardener.

He knew nothing but shouted it loudly. the woman had a firm grasp but allowed herself to be bullied.

Why would you enter a team with that little understanding of warfare? I don't get it.

[Lord De Moray]

Dear, dear me

What a bunch..............they couldn't have punched their way out of a paper bag. Great graphics again Loved the Romans shame they had complete idiots in command. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Still the game just looks better and better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Lord De Moray

[The_Emperor]

Is it possible to make a battle go any worse? I mean they abandoned all the Golden rules...

1. Abandoned the High Ground with Woodland on it
2. Spread their forces in thin ranks only TWO men deep
3. Having NO units Guarding the Flanks, and then getting outflanked and surrounded

Man I really laughed watching that, you could see that before the battle had begun or even a single unit was deployed that this team would lose big time

I saw it comming a mile off... And to think I thought the Trebia lot needed improvement http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Divine Wind]

I was close to banging my head on the desk at there stupidity. What a shambles Where did they get these idiots from lol? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Well at least the graphics and game engine seemed good.

[frogbeastegg]

Here's the summery I just posted in the colluseum for those who can't be bothered to go and read it there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Well what can I say?

-On the team.
:froggy tries to think of something nice to say. Four hours later she is still trying: Please God, never let us have to rely on these four for the survival of our country I shall keep the nasty comments to myself and try to be constructive. The man who said something along the lines of They did it in Ben Hur - that's how they did it in histroy needs a 60 hour intensive course on real history. He also needs his copy of the film burning so he cannot watch it again The one who said that chariots were harmless needs hitting with an inflatable mallet. The woman who came up with a reasonable plan only to give up needs to go on an assertiveness course so she can use her ideas. The one who first proposed killing Boudicca to end it all should play MTW and see what happens when you do that when the enemy are obviously winning. I think I shall stop there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif As a joke - the team were missing one vital unit - a frog to tell them what to do

-On the program.
Much better this time, the presenter was better and I loved the way he made those little remarks to the team for example let's review the good parts of your plan. Now let's review the bad parts, :cue long speech on how bad they were. I still don't go crazy for the experts but they did have some good points about the Brits being underestimated and using the testudo outside of a siege situation being suicide. What was the whole toothpick thing? There is still a need for some tweaking, especially on the map where they put the blocks. That defeat imminent warning is very annoying - I hope they drop it fast.

-On the RTW graphics
This week looked much better, the main problems I had with the engine last time were not present - no elephants moving in unison and pushing Romans around like they are roller-skates. I don't really care about infantry moving in sync and the cavalry is supposed to be fixed up before the final release so it shouldn't be a problem. Why did the arrows leave smoke trails? They weren't fire arrows.

- On the units
Some new types were shown. The chariots look fantastic I can see me using them a lot just for the way they look as they zoom around the field, running people down and throwing javelins. Then I'll get over the effects and it will be business as usual http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif Thank heaven there were no blades on the wheels. The error on the RTW unit page has carried over - the Brit woad warriors were named but the art showed Dacian falx men instead. D'oh For some reason I thought the falx men were walking like they were wearing soiled nappies, although that was probably because I was laughing so much. I think I may use the Brits quite a bit in the future. The Romans were nice too but we have seen them in action before.

-On the AI
Well it wasn't nearly as stupid as last week, in fact it behaved like MTW's AI so at least we know things haven't got worse. To be honest as I watch the two episodes we've seen I'm not entirely convinced that is the AI running the non player side. The enemy have a tendency to stop and wait until the players are either in position or completely screwed before moving, i.e. it moves to deploy, waits around a lot for the opponent to get ready and then starts to move again. Once it starts moving the second time it will progress as normal. The enemy only start moving when the player is done, for example today they advanced before waiting for the team to finish screwing up their position before starting the real movements and attacks. It was like someone had told it to stop and wait for the team. The enemy has also fallen for some traps that the TW AI we know would never do, Shoggy's AI wouldn't have walked into last weeks massive trap. I think it is a specialised, toned down version of the AI with a guy telling it to stop and start as needed, the pauses in battle for the players to reshuffle are just too well timed for it to be coincidence.

Any way I enjoyed it, any program that can have me shouting what cavalry you idiots sent them to their deaths two minutes ago How can you send the cavalry to flank when there is no cavalry can only be a good thing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Oh hell, some of the stupid things they said were so good I shall have to repeat them. NB these are paraphrased, as I can't remember the exact wording.

*We don't need the high ground; after all we are only massively out numbered.
*After half their men are shot by their own archers the team ask what’s shooting at us? before asking what are the archers doing to kill our men, they are firing into the enemy that's mixed in with our men The presenter answered that they were being hit by arrows since that was what the Roman archers were shooting Twas quite funny really.
*Oh no We are loosing badly, let's break up into even smaller clumps and ignore our men while we chase Boudicca (Maybe they liked her shiny armour?)
*We are being massacred, lets regroup back on the hill and start fighting the battle sensibly
*Our men are surrounded and cannot get away. Make them withdraw back to the hill.
*Our men are fleeing for their lives; order them to kill Boudicca on the way out please
*Chariots? Who cares about chariots, after all they are only mobile and deadly.
*The best way to keep your cavalry in reserve is to dump it right at the back where it will take a long time to arrive in battle. Good idea.
*To sum up our plan - we haven't got one. :Two minutes later after much prompting from the presenter they come up with: we will march onto the plain (height, who needs it?) scattering our forces as we go to make the Brits split up (who cares if they can surround us)before charging the enemy (I watch Braveheart in my spare time) and shooting them with arrows in a moving line of doom (I also like Ben Hur) and spread out into thin lines (cus it looks good and we need to block off this massive plain since the Brits are moving to attack our flanks, how unfair). We will win easily

[ShadesPanther]

I missed last weeks but I saw tonights version. Are they really that bad and thick? I mean common if you want to play a war game on tv you would think you need to know about war a tinney bit before you embarrase yourselves on TV http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif . Quite funny really.

The woman had the right idea but then she compromised.


The effects were amazing. The men were jerky but its only a Beta
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Revenant69]

Well, where do they keep finding these dimwhits to lead the battles? I am beginning to think that the purpose of the show is the following: Lets find some ppl with 50 IQ, and see how they screw up during the famous historic battles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I mean honestly, from reading all the feedback about the 2 episodes I havent seen a sound military mind there yet lol. Hey i have an idea, we have alot of Brits on this forum. Why dont they join in? It would be fun. I think the end score would be something like this:
Org Team 99 vs Dimwits 1
The reason i gave them 1 victory is that by flailing their arms and yelling out frantic orders they may stumble upon a perfect battle plan (sort of like 1000 monkeys on a 1000 typewriters will write Shakespeare). lol This is all meant to be harmless fun, I am not criticising anyone. Too bad i cant watch it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Custor]

When did 2 man chariots run over formed Roman legions frontally? Aren't they for skirmishing ala light cavalry just 500 years out of date from when horses weren't big enough to carry a man?
Killing the enemy General was one of the most common tactics for a small disciplined force when outnumbered, and yet it was scoffed at.
Still terrible format 2 Generals and 2 Subordinates = disaster every time. Probably makes better TV with the contestents arguing. I do wonder where they get them from though and whether they've played any wargames before exposing yourself on tele. Got to be the rejects Super Market sweep or some such.

[frogbeastegg]

Some chariots swept through the units flanks disrupting the formation and allowing the others to go through the front. Then they circled back around and ploughed through the disrupted formation. They weren't causing massive casualties but they were very effective at breaking the formation. You are right when you say that chariots were outdated at this time, I was surprised at how effective they were. Maybe if the Romans were formed up properly things would have been different.

In this case it was too late for the generals death to have any effect, the Romans were already beaten as they were completely surrounded, disrupted and with heavy casualties and a general loss of formation. Only the sudden rout of every single enemy unit would have saved them and that seldom happens in TW unless the enemy are already loosing badly. It was just too little too late.

Funny you should mention rejects - one of the men wanted to be on Big Brother If that doesn't flag him as a dodgy candidate nothing will. Last week the team worked together quite well so the general/lieutenant split can work as long as the team cooperate. This lot didn't and the rest is (imitation) history. Supermarket sweep with chariots could be worth watching though....

[Alrowan]

it sounded like a comedy of errors, i hope they release a DVD http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Pitt_Slayer]

what a bunch of noobs that team were http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif fools i knew within mins (leaving high ground) and that was before they deployed their army they wouldnt last.
wtf are the bbc playing at? using noobs who had no idea about battlefield tatic's. cmon bbc get a grip

last week that team played ok vs AI (on easy mode) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
but lastnight was a joke.
also it was the wrong show, WHAT HAPPEN WITH the scottish family (caledonian tribesmen)vs roman governor agricola?????
84ad battlefield mons graupius.

it should be human team vs human team http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Antigonid]

a couple of observations.....

Obviously the team was crap..... well actually 3 of the team were crap, one was just bad..... DONT FORGET there were possibly some 'real life' politics at play there..... they all work together and the guy 'General' was obviously the 'more senior employee' of the 4, he therefore took the lead and basically 'talked over' everyone else.

When asked why he wouldnt let anyone else speak he said 'Im from Liverpool' wtf?

the guy Lieutenant was insistant that a unit of Roman Cavalry was in fact '9 units of Generals'. When asked if he was sure he repeated this with absolute sincerity & determination. (I wonder how he would describe one Parthian Cataphract formation..... '200 Field Marshalls'?

The Celts (Britons?) had Berserkers ???? (that was the term applied by the Presenter to the unit of guys with 'Pick Axes' ).

The presenter took too many opportunities to 'take the pi$$' (be sarcastic and belittling them) out of the team before & during deployment.... this was I feel one of the reasons why they became a shambles...... he destroyed what little confidence they may have had BEFORE they had a chance...... these were 4 normal people (well Okay 3 and a 'gobshite' ) obviously who had not been on TV before.... their nerves were shot anyway before he opened his stupid mouth.

The 'Experts' were more subdued than the previous week, perhaps by the end of the series they may be acting like 'normal' people instead of hyperactive fools.

Why did the introductory part of the program display the Romans going into testudo? THIS may have over emphasised the usefulness of the formation to the team..... OKAY it was said that the formation was 'best used in sieges'...... I bet the team didnt even know what a siege was

It was nice to see the units mingling as they advanced (the Celts) to show the 'mob' of infantry rather than the single weapon formations that we are expecting.... ALSO the 'smaller' expert DID say that the troops (altho depicted with sword) represented guys with 'swords, farm implements etcetera.........

The chariots were a novelty..... not overly impressed with them at this stage (animationwise) but lets hope this has been improved upon for the final release of the game. By the way was anyone else trying to look up Boudiccas skirt as her chariot moved? (her skirt was blowing upwards and forwards).... also the reins of the chariot need to be visible...... I couldnt see them.

Did anyone else think that the term 'the Battle of Watling Street' mislead the team into thinking they should be fighting on the street itself?

I also think the halt of the Celts at the street may have misled them into this assumption also...... 'oh theyve stopped perhaps we have to go to them?' was the teams thought?

Basically YES the team were crap..... BUT they obviously knew NOTHING at all of warfare / tactics etcetera..... so they were a bad choice as contestants.

Lets see a team of Wargamers or better still 'Total Wargamers' take on the game..... victory would be certain

Good post huh? perhaps Ill soon be able to post in the main forums??????????

[Mephisto]

Did someone manage to record the second episode ?

[squippy]

Yeah, it was grim. I felt sorry for the noobs, being thrown to the celts and butchered. Its quite clear that these folk were picked from like a waiting list of TV wannabes who had neither interest or experience with military history AT ALL.

Its not clear to me what the point of the programme is supposed to be except humiliating random members of the public. If they had anyone who had played any of the TW series, or even anyone with a decent grounding in RTS games generally, or someone with a familiarity with history, they would have had a much better chance. But as it was they clearly struggled to understand how to even play, let alone what to do. They did not have enough informaiton with which to be able to make intelligent decisions.

Jo, thew woman who had the right idea at the beginning, objected quite rightly that they didn't even have a clear understanding of the battlefield before the fighting began. You've got to wonder what the point of that discovery section is, where they learn about the troops - why don't the hosts deploy the markers for their own troops for them before they start? Then at least they would start from the right rather than the wrong assumptions; that plaugued both episodes so far. The players clearly thought the game was going to start and THEN they were going to deploy, whereas in fact they more or less WERE deployed, functionally, and only had to deterine where to move (if at all). Surely, showing a general their own troops is not misrepresentative.

They also objected that they didnlt know their own troops yet and the presenter sorta said well I showed you two of them, do you want me to hold you by the hand? That was unfair, these people were TOTAL NOOBS who knew nothing at all, didn't even know where to begin. You'd get a better briefing on what to expect on almost any other game show.

Yes, they made heinous fuckups. The gardner would have been executed by his own men. Eventually the lieutenants did try to ignore the generals and try to act independantly, but too late. The generals were reduced to abandoning their map - which showed them nothing - and leaning over the rail peering at the big screen.

Any given player here could probably fight and win these battles. These poor noobs are crippled not becuase they are idiots, not even becuase they are ignorant, but becuase the interface used for the programme (not the game) is so bad that they are in the dark, effectively. Poor noobs, they were blindfiolded and led to the slaughter with one arm tied behind their backs. Personal idiocy just compounded the problems.

Antigonid wrote:

Quote[/b] ] the guy Lieutenant was insistant that a unit of Roman Cavalry was in fact '9 units of Generals'. When asked if he was sure he repeated this with absolute sincerity & determination. (I wonder how he would describe one Parthian Cataphract formation..... '200 Field Marshalls'?

Ah yes I meant to comment on that. Its clear that this is what he was told by his assigned technicians this is an army of generals... which really meant, the generals bodyguards. But it would be right to say, this is a unit of Royal Knights.

I also think the friendly fire was a technician mistake. I think they heard shoot thr enemy and gave a direct fire order, rather than just drawing up the archers in a suitable place and letting them pick their own targets. The technicians are taking uinstrcutions as if it were game jargobn, but the players don;t know what the jargon is. There is a huga communication breakdown and a clash of expectations.

[Rocket_Boy]

The presenter was entirely unhelpful and even more annoying than last week. All he did was slag off the team, which fair enough they deserved, however he showed absolutely no aptitude himself and his proddings and suggestions were by and large counterproductive.

[mystic brew]

yeah, there was some unfairness.

Someone should be allowed to point out that the Tortoise is useless except against missile fire.

But then again, they should be allowed to screw things up all by themselves

But then again, though watching last night was painful, it was decent TV. Seeing the dynamics inside the team is better.

And to think i wasn't too impressed by the first lot they at least set a plan and stuck to it. Set a trap and sprung it.

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Quote[/b] (Custor @ Sep. 11 2003,16:41)]When did 2 man chariots run over formed Roman legions frontally? Aren't they for skirmishing ala light cavalry just 500 years out of date from when horses weren't big enough to carry a man?
Killing the enemy General was one of the most common tactics for a small disciplined force when outnumbered, and yet it was scoffed at.
Still terrible format 2 Generals and 2 Subordinates = disaster every time. Probably makes better TV with the contestents arguing.
I think they were able to run over the Romans frontally because they had been set up in a thin line only two men thick.

The program wasnt so much the battle of watling street but Gary v Jo and Jill v Paul, very funny and a bit sad. The presenter is plain mean and I dont think he has improved much from last week - there were some funny moments but he was just nasty.

On the 2 Gen - 2 Lt format, a lot depends on the leutenants (sp?) because they have to keep an eye out for where the units relative to each other and the enemy. These guys split it up so that one was with the infantry all over the field, one with the archers (also all over the field), and who pray was handling the cavalry? So basically both lts would focus on one section of the field allowing the Celt cavalry to wipe them out on the other side.

Killing the general is EARLY is a good plan but not when you are being whooped all over the place, diverting your attention is not a good idea.

I missed the first 5 min or so, but I got the impression that the units had not been as well described to the players as last week. There seemed to be a lot of emphasis on the cav, and on the infantry the emphasis was on the testudo instead of them being solid heavy inf. Also with one exception they seemed completely unaware that archers could shoot over the head of their own men To be fair though 6:1 was rather tough on them.

When will they show Mons Grapicus?? Thats the second time its been cancelled

[katar]

as regards the players and the battle it was a total cl*ster f*k http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif it really was http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Pedders]

Yep, Eddie Mair (the presenter) was acting like a tosspot. He should be grilling the confident teams and helping the strugglers.

I personally like the experts. The tall guy Aryn Nusbacher I find most entertaining. I've seen him on the discovery channel as a military expert, I believe he lectures at Sandhurst (British equivalent of West Point).

I noticed he said crap several times last week and bollock naked this week. Might sound tame to others but thats a major snigger inducer before the 9 o'clock watershed in the UK

[Mephisto]

up

[mystic brew]

last night was the best episode yet.

Caesar against the Gauls.

The team were OK. They were quick learners, at any rate, especially the senior general.

They got lucky, in that the inept lieutenant had his half of the army slaughtered and routed in short order.

Which left a pure heavy infantry defence, and the genaeral kept units in reserve, commited them at the right time, prevented any outflanking, and though he was obsessed with 'plugging the gaps' he ended up giving a pretty decent display of close order heavy infantry fighting.

He also spotted the ambush force and reacted quickly.
When there were two generals the situation is way too confusing. After the senior general took over, even with half their soldiers gone, the battle was fought quite well.

They made the classic no nothing mistakes early, charging out and getting their light forces and cavalry annihilated.

[lanky316]

This was a good performance, at the begining I was certain it was going to be a rout when they were being led down hill and everything was looking strong for the Gauls. A clever piece of work in getting the troops back in order (though it failed with the light infantry) got things sorted and they managed to make a good defencive action. Good work with the making sure there was no way they could be outflanked (although apparently that doesn't matter so much with veteran cohorts) and it was steadfast.

Do you think they saw the previous team, after all at the begining they were very focused on that hill...

[Shahed]

I JUST WATCHED last night's episode http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The team was Ok I guess, but very reluctant generals, reluctant to give orders that is. The general with the white shirt actually said something along the lines of can you pan the camera over there please. I think this was pretty much to the detriment of the team coz he could have been more precise i.e camera left, stop, right, stop forward, stop...etc The other general did pretty ok, and controlled the situation reasonably well, considering thye many mistakes that were made. Basically they did not convey their authority or their orders very well, and in the case of the hill team the communications were absolutely demolished.

In the end I think they won, becuase of the superior stats of the Legion.

About the graphics, they look great but I think some of the good suggestions already made on this forum should be incorporated before final release, for example:

- tail wagging problem
- irregulars and regulars breaking up into individual runs (not syncronised)
- the horse and rider being separate entities i.e horse dies, rider fights, rider dies, horse runs around (tuff one, I know)

Good program, looks like a good game too look forward to next week's episode.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]He also spotted the ambush force and reacted quickly.
When there were two generals the situation is way too confusing. After the senior general took over, even with half their soldiers gone, the battle was fought quite well.

i don`t think he did, he spotted the infantry force coming through the woods, but that was only after he had already been surprised once by the cavalry ambush.

i was surprised that they split their light troops and cav off from the hvy infantry, if it hadn`t been for the stats of the hvy infantry loter in the battle they would have been toast. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Cheetah]

Well, I am not surprised that they had their light infantry and cavalry slaughtered wheres did reasonably well with thier heavy infantry. Heavy infanty is a more intuitive force, meaning that it is much easier to find out what is it good for.
On the other hand, if you dont know the abilities of your light infanry and cavalry it is very difficult to make good decesions. For example, what is the range of the slingers? What is the speed of the opposing cavalry? How close can I get with my ranged unit without risking a charge? How close can I get to the oppposing range without being shot? How strong is my cavalry compared to the opposing cavalry? Shall I send 1 cav units to defeat 1 gaul light cav or shall send 2? Can the roman cavs stand up against the gaul heavy cavs in 1v1 situation? Is my light cav faster than that of the opponent? What is the striking distance of my cavs (which depends on both the speed of my cavs and on the speed of the opposing unit)? Can I expect 1 slinger unit to decimate a gaul infantry to half strength before it can charge home or shall I concentrate more than 1 slingers on 1 unit? etc., etc. If the players dont know the answers to these and related questions then how on earth are they expected to make good decisions? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
No wonder, that as far as I can tell, players in each of the episodes misjudged distanace and timing with their light infantry/cavalry. They will continue to do so unless they get a decent briefing (and time to experiment&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif on the abilities of different unit types.

It is really beyond me that on what ground are these people expected to outperform ( i.e. not just perform on the same level but perform better&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif than seasoned roman generals who had profound knowledge of the capabilities of their troops.

And this whole idea of letting people to think that leading an army is an easy task is just BS. What about having a new series Time Doctors in which invited laymen would carry out operations without any traning and edujaction, in fact without the basic knowledge of the human body (of course, only with the help of a 3D engine called Total:Operation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif). And the motto of the series would be Operate yourself, afterall, operating is an easy task anyone can do it. Lets say, in the second part in a supposed kidney operation they would cut off the head of the patient right at the start, whereas in the third part they would chop down the left leg of a patient who had a toothache. Would you applaud the idea? Would you cheer that what a nice right leg hopping was that in the third part ?

All in all, unless they players get a decent briefing you can expect the same blunders, misjudged timings, wasted light infantry, and the occasional heavy infantry saves the day pattern.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]Well, I am not surprised that they had their light infantry and cavalry slaughtered wheres did reasonably well with thier heavy infantry. Heavy infanty is a more intuitive force, meaning that it is much easier to find out what is it good for.

i don`t know if you saw the show, (majority here won`t have i guess) but they had all of their light infantry, light cavalry, archers and slingers on one wing, with the infantry off in the distance on the other wing and a large gap in between the respective wings.

all light troops were out in the open and not well deployed.

none of those troops were designed to take the brunt of the attack, and they made absolutely no use of the archers and slingers.

i think the archers were in the open and managed to get off a volley before being overrun by the charging horses.

the slingers just got overrun without firing at all.

they were told at the start that light troops were not meant for that role, but to protect the flanks of the heavy infantry.

as you say they need better briefings and/or some practice beforehand.

that`s my 2 cents. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[The_Emperor]

The problem is there are too many generals on the show

As the Historian said The Romans had Unity of Command, but our team has duality of command.

There should only be one general in command of the entire army.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]The problem is there are too many generals on the show

As the Historian said The Romans had Unity of Command, but our team has duality of command.

There should only be one general in command of the entire army.

very true, but it would probably make for bad TV. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[BlackFireStorm]

Hi everyone, noob here.

I think the show is hugely unfair to the participants. Not only are they not properly briefed about the units they are controlling, they are also hamstrung by the so-called 'control structure' they are forced to use, with two generals of equivalent rank. Further, the generals only have one screen with which to overview the battle. Add to this Mair shoving his nose in and deliberatly making them question their own decisions and I think it's inevitable most will fail.

Having said that, the four gentlemen on last night were cocky in the extreme and I was enjoying seeing the chaos their poor tactics were causing Interstingly, once General 2 was slaughtered, General 1 did a reasonable job and saved the day. He also did have the easier job though - he simply arranged his troops in a crescent and waited, hoping their discipline (and armour) would hold, which they did.

A much more interesting experiment would be to get someone more experienced in battle in there ordering the troops about, rather than watching the same (beginners) mistakes every week.

Ultimately I find the show enjoyable, but feel it could be so much better. Let's hope they think to give the military experts a bash before the end of the series.

Cheers,

Blackie.

[lanky316]

Quote[/b] (BlackFireStorm @ Sep. 20 2003,09:37)]I think the show is hugely unfair to the participants. Not only are they not properly briefed about the units they are controlling, they are also hamstrung by the so-called 'control structure' they are forced to use, with two generals of equivalent rank. Further, the generals only have one screen with which to overview the battle. Add to this Mair shoving his nose in and deliberatly making them question their own decisions and I think it's inevitable most will fail.
I think having multiple generals should make It in theory easier as they can confer, as for the one screen to follow the battle on that is the fault of the subordinates, in reality the general would have one view and would receive messages from the subordinates and other members of his retinue combining a lot of advisors so will be fully aware of what is going on around him regardless. I've only seen two but neither team really seemed to communicate once they got out there and it cost them dearly.

[BlackFireStorm]

Quote[/b] ]I think having multiple generals should make It in theory easier as they can confer
I believe in all team situations, including war, the most effective structure is to have a single point of command. My point was that the competitors are denied this by the structure forced upon them. I take on board your comment about the single screen, but if the command structure is such that there are two generals, there should be a screen for each so that they can sensibly command their armied independently and than also confer and act as one overall unit as you suggest. Still, as katar said, it makes for good TV.

[Michiel de Ruyter]

Anyone seen todays show ?

Mons Graupius was the battle, the team playing the Caledonians...

IMHO by far (and by that I mean Moscow to Vladivostok distance) the most difficult to fight of the battles picked so far, as the team had to play the Caledonian side...

They did have some kind of plan, though made some mistakes in the deployment (spread too thin, archers too far away), and did not really have a plan how to react when running into problems...

Their plan was to charge downhill with the infantry, and flank on both sides with cavalry and chariots. They did not support the flank-attack however... In the end they lost, of course, as the Romans were able to carve them up in smaller pockets and carve them up.

IMHO they did well though, as they forced Agricola (the Romans) to commit his tactical (infantry) reserve, something the Romans did not have to do at all during the original battle.

On a bit of different note, the blond lady general was quite fine-looking....

[Stratagos Desaix]

I was impressed right up to the point where they had to specify their plan,their recce was flawless from there it went down hill though,I don't think any of the teams picked so far have been able to use skirmisher's and that has limited the tactical options available to them IMHO.As soon as someone with knowledge of combined arms is on the show the AI will be stuffed.

[eddeduck]

The lady may have been fine but she was darn annoying. The boy who was supposed to be good at playing general was very quiet towards the end.
Also I noticed that the team played the actual losing army from history unlike the previous teams who played the victorious sides.
Perhaps this was because they were scots playing in scotland. They weren't actually playing the scots anyway if anyone remembers the campaign map for VI. Im not positive but I belive that those tribes were somehow related to the picts, correct me If I'm wrong please.
Tactics wide they did spread too thinly, A common thing in all of these battles has been concentarition of forces or suprise. A point to note when the game arrives.
Ta Bye
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
ps Up the Darkness and sorry for My rubbish username I couldn't think of anything military that i could remember.

[katar]

if they were fighting in the Highlands they would be Picts.

the Picts eventually got ousted by the Scots several centuries later.

and just to confuse matters, the Scots came from Ireland. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Quote[/b] ]Darkness

if you are referring to the band, i think Muse are better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[KarlIronblade]

I would say that they had one of the better performances that I've seen (but I started watching from the second episode in). There was a point during the battle that I thought that despite the major losses they had at the start that they might be able to claw it back, especially seeing as the casualty bars that were shown clearly last week, when visible on rare occasions on the screen during this one, were pretty much level.

Definitely better than the idiots from the second episode, yet the daughter's sheer determination to get the archers around the back of the enemy, as well as the mistakes made with the cav and chariots cost them dearly, in my opinion.

I would try and make a pun about how time was running out for the Caledonians once they made those mistakes but I dare say I'd be liable for a slapping from katar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Shono]

It was a bit of a shame really, they appeared reasonably competent in the recce and I thought they might give the Romans a run for their money. Sadly not, but then they were disadvantaged by who shouts the loudest syndrome and the Romans being rock hard.

One thing I do feel is that they get very little time to deploy and generally find themselves still deploying as the battle begins.

It must all be quite presurised and I feel they are forced into having too few options. Most teams appear to stick with what they are presented with and try and manouver some units, rather than shape the whole army to their plan.

Rather than cram the whole battle into one hour, a possible option would be to give them say 4 hours and the programme be highlights allong the following

Off screen - 1 hour preparation
On Screen - 15 minutes of introductions, history etc
Off Screen - 1 hour deployment
On Screen - 15 minutes showing main movements and review of both sides deployment and forces.
Off Screen - upto 2 hours to fight the battle
On Screen - the main highlights of the battle with the conclusion and analysis.

Then the BBC could show the whole programme on BBC3 for those addicts amoungst us. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Oh and kill the presenter. (well hurt him a little so he cannot present the show)

What about the new expert, prefer the other bloke he is more enthusiastic. Perhaps he left because of the presenter http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[katar]

the new presenter seems to be another condescending prat, Aryn Nusbacher and the other presenter worked well together and came across better.

i think the host of the show should be given practical knowledge of the medieval catapult, preferrably with him sitting in the cup and it being fired at a very solid stone castle. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Quote[/b] ]Quote
Darkness


if you are referring to the band, i think Muse are better.

They're both great.

I suggest that EVERYONE one the .Org apply. And I mean everyone. We're bound to get someone selected, and then we'll see some carnage. I think the person who mentioned combined arms is right. Light infantry and cavalry need to be protected by heavy infantry to do their jobs properly, and vice-versa. I think the epitomy of the ignorance of this fact was the 'our heavy infantry are good-let's abandon the hill' quote. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]I think the epitomy of the ignorance of this fact was the 'our heavy infantry are good-let's abandon the hill' quote.

i must have missed that bit, i can`t believe they actually said that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

i`ll keep that saying mind, it`s as bad as Custer leaving his gatling guns behind as he headed off to the Little Big Horn. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Midnight Oil rules OK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[lanky316]

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ Sep. 26 2003,07:04)]
Quote[/b] ]Quote
Darkness


if you are referring to the band, i think Muse are better.

They're both great.

I suggest that EVERYONE one the .Org apply. And I mean everyone. We're bound to get someone selected, and then we'll see some carnage.
Unfortunately the last bits of filming were on 25/26th September. We won't be waging war anytime soon http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ Sep. 26 2003,13:04)]
Quote[/b] ]Quote
Darkness


if you are referring to the band, i think Muse are better.

They're both great.
I saw The Darkness back when I used to live in Oulton Broad, Lowestoft, before they got big... They sucked and there were much better bands on at the gig than them

I guess it shows the sad state of affairs the Music industry is in when they get given a record contract

Oh yeah about Time Commanders... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I thought the battle was great (and yes the female General was very nice looking) but it shows how powerful once again the Romans are going to be in Combat. I feel that they will certainly be the new Huscarls on the battlefield and will be very difficult to dislodge.

But saying that they did well even though they did lose, inflicting more damage on the Romans (and forcing them to send in the reserves).

An interesting battle.

[squippy]

Quote[/b] (katar @ Sep. 26 2003,06:50)]i think the host of the show should be given practical knowledge of the medieval catapult, preferrably with him sitting in the cup and it being fired at a very solid stone castle. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
we're not allowed to do that in England any more I don't think, not since that student got killed