Units that just plain suck

[DemonArchangel]

I'll start it off.

Urban militia (not the AUMs, they're incredibly useful)
Mamluk HA (use faris)
Khazar Royal Cavalry (Avar Nobles are better)

[Knight_Yellow]

urbans r good.

can beat spears and make great low cost "elite" infatry in the first 50 years.

[Monk]

The ultimate Unit...Peseants (i dont think i spelled that right lol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif )

well put plain and simple, they suck...there's just no way around it. They are good for nothing farmers with no combat usefullness, in fact their only purpose is to be used as an arrow shield in crossing rivers, thats about it...

..

yup thats it

[GranCactus]

Anything that starts with "Slav" or ends with "Javelinmen."

[Executor]

Any unit that doesn't have the word "knight" in it.

[Revenant69]

Quote[/b] ]Anything that starts with "Slav" or ends with "Javelinmen."

Hey, I take offense to that. My name just happens to start with "Slav" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Oaty]

Personally I have found a purpose for every single unit in the game and no I am not including garrison duties. Guess it is just a matter of how well you manage your troops.

[Fragony]

Mamluk horse archers bad?? They are great horse archers and have a good attack as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif And urban militia are good for taking out these damned saracen infantry when you decide to take the desert grounds. Most useless unit is the polish retainer IMO, not that it is a bad unit, but once they appear you can allrdy have chivalric knights as well.
Ottoman sipahi is also kinda useless.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (GranCactus @ Sep. 06 2003,03:45)]Anything that starts with "Slav" or ends with "Javelinmen."
I actually found the Slav warriors to be quite handy... they are cheap but quite resonable in combat for the price.


Quote[/b] ]The ultimate Unit...Peseants

Ahh yes Peasants...

They are totally useless bunch, good only for sending into melee and taking an arrow in their backs Just the same as Allied armies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Hashishin are also totally useless because there are so few of them in a unit

[Yoko Kono]

Quote[/b] (GranCactus @ Sep. 06 2003,03:45)]Anything that starts with "Slav" or ends with "Javelinmen."
javellins are superb, they will defeat archers and horse archers in a ranged dual and they are the quickest and most effective way to take down kings and heirs and annoying 'invincible' enemy generals

[Tony]

Handgunners. They are slow, noisy and harmless. They have to get within touchin distance to fire and suck in melee. They are well armoured so at least it takes a while for them to die.

[Lazul]

omg... why do you ppl hate paesants? i never leave home without them.
But i only use hem for 1 thing: Storming forts they usefull to break up gates so my elit troops dont get harmed untill the real melee starts haha im so evil http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[DemonArchangel]

Nah, mamluk Horse archers SUCK I use faris instead.

[BDC]

Valour 9, Armour 3, Weapon 3, peasants rock. They can stop valour 0 anything.

[ToranagaSama]

Are you talking Campaign or MP, totally different games?

[DemonArchangel]

both, i never use mamluk HA, ever.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Lithuanian Cavalry really are awful at times and as for jobbagy, they are bloody awful. Is it just me or is it pointless all those javelin units being added to VI? A few better units could have been added, i think it was slighty lazy on CA part.

[hrvojej]

Javelin units are great when used properly. I always liked them, but now I like them even more once I slightly modded their range.

On the other hand, even after a year of playing this game, I must say I don't know how to use urban militia or militia sergeants. Whenever I use them, they rout in no time, die like flies, and do nothing to the enemy. Even peasants can sometimes hold better, since they are at least a 100 man unit. I've seen them inflict some damage when controlled by the AI, since I usually have heavily armoured troops, but against non-upgraded units the AI uses, I cannot say that I've found any use for them. They end up being the only units I positively never build, since there is always a better alternative, like vanilla spearmen.

[Foreign Devil]

Urban Militia may be next to useless, but Militia Sergeants can be quite usefull. They deal with royal knights fairly well, and can even take on feudal men at arms in some situations. And they're cheap, too.

Peasants actually can win a battle for you.... sometimes... maybe...

[Lunael]

When talking about SP, there really aren´t many units that are completely useless. Even lowly peasants may have their use as a cannon fodder when there simply isn´t anything else you can build in the provinces and you _need_ units. And of course, when we extend the scope of the question, I usually have one peasant unit in every province as a "basic garrison".

My knowledge of the game is still a bit limited, but there really is only one situation where I´d say that some units "sucks": when your faction has two units that come to use with virtually same requirements and at the same time, each have almost identical use in the field, but another has clearly lower values, so much lower that ie. reduced price cannot outweight these cons. Can anyone point out some specific cases (faction, period) where this is true?

Of course, you might say that your spears suck when you´re playing Almohads after early - but what can you do, the options are pretty limited. You just have to manage with the units you can train, fill the holes with mercenaries, and circumvent the weak sides of your army with tactics.

-Juha

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Lunael @ Sep. 06 2003,17:27)]My knowledge of the game is still a bit limited, but there really is only one situation where I´d say that some units "sucks": when your faction has two units that come to use with virtually same requirements and at the same time, each have almost identical use in the field, but another has clearly lower values, so much lower that ie. reduced price cannot outweight these cons. Can anyone point out some specific cases (faction, period) where this is true?
There are mre than a few, actually. For example, szekely/horse archers for Hungarians, turcomans/horse archers for the Turks, already metioned examples of Polish retainers and Lithuanian cavalry, sipahi and ghulams when compared to Armenians, even arab infantry when compared to ghazis, etc.

And I wouldn't say that muwahid foot suck, even after early. What other spears have such high morale? The offsets are of course only 60 men per unit and low defense/armour, but they are also fast and have a decent attack (for spears). They are also somewhat versatile due to their speed, and can be used even in roles other than just static shield/spear wall. You can also give them some nice upgrades in Iberian provinces when playing the Almos to offset some stats problems. I use them sucessfully throughout the game and even prefer them to saracens when playing other muslims in about half of the situations.

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] (GranCactus @ Sep. 05 2003,21:45)]Anything that starts with "Slav" or ends with "Javelinmen."
you beat me to it.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

The units of 100 Slavic warriors looks pretty when you have a nice full banner, but they're as bad as peasants.

[Lunael]

Naturally, when you have faction specific unit that is better than the "common" one you use it, but I don´t know if it really qualifies the common unit to suck - in that situation yes, generally not.

-Juha

[Oaty]

I'm surprised some of you think that slavic warriors totally suck. I have them in my main stacks along with garrison duty. I use them when when I'm short of elite units as the first 16 and sometimes use a unit or 2 in the main fray of battle. They are fast wich are great for maneuvering behind enemy lines once the enemy cavalry is engaged, anything they hit in the back or flank from there charge does cause some decent casualties and nothing like flooding in slavic warriors against there archers.

[Cheetah]

Militia sergeants are pretty good, actually the best unit one can get on early (unless you play Almohads or Byzantines http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ). Protect their flanks and they wont run http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Javelinmen can be useful, just put them behind your main line (preferably spears) and put them on engage on will, or on hold/hold.

BTW the most useless unit type is the ballista. Someone posted that it can knock down wooden palisades, but heck, even peasants can do that ...

[Qilue]

Hashishan - Just what are they supposed to do?
Feudal Knights - By the time you've built the needed buildings, it's almost high era and chiv knights aren't far off.
Lithuanian cav - Obscene building requirements for marginally better mounted sergeants.
Gallowglasses - when playing Danes, Vikings are better.
Bombards - between the time you can buld a foundry to the time you can build cannons, you've probably built a master foundry and culverins are available.
Mangonels and trebuchets - catapults will do much the same thing and can turn.

Wishes and fishes
If Polish retainers were available in early.
If Mamluk HA were fast.
If hobilars and mounted sergeants were fast as per their description.

[motorhead]

Muwahid foot: as muslim faction they are great for desert battles. Even after the 4th or 5th enemy wave has come on the map, muwahid, desert archers and camels can recover to 2 fatigue bars while the rest of your army is either exhausted or get 1 bar back that disappears as soon as they enter combat.

As for worst unit, i nominate the mortar. The shots fire so high that you practically have to hit them in the head to get a kill. No bouncing balls that can bowl down the enemy (like cats, mangonels, or any of the cannon family). Useless at close range. Pitiful in a siege. Worthless for bridge battles. If anyone has found more than marginal/humorous/lucky_shot use for them please tell me how.

Edit: almost forgot, they can't even turn.

Every other unit mentioned either has some combat ability, even if it's not cost efficient, or can at least serve as a garrison unit (peasants). Even the bloody ballista can knock down pallisades and at least hit an enemy at close range. Mortars in a siege? Better hope you've got a valour 9 crew cuz the trajectory is so steep it's like trying to hit the top of the wall.

[DemonArchangel]

Qilue, gallowglasses are basically english gazis, they're f*ck awesome, 2 charges will destroy most units.

[Qilue]

Quote[/b] (DemonArchangel @ Sep. 06 2003,23:03)]Qilue, gallowglasses are basically english gazis, they're f*ck awesome, 2 charges will destroy most units.
DemonArchangel - you didn't read the whole line did you?

Gallowglasses - when playing Danes, Vikings are better.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Orange]

You're all forgetting the feel the game gets with all those historic units. What if you had a unit for each purpose specifically, and that was it? It would be dull (talking SP here), no variety. I like having some Lithuanian Cav, some Retainers, and a variety of men in an army. I don't know the stats by head, and I don't look at it often, I create my armies by what I think I need, and what units I have as options. Wether one is slightly better than the other, whatever. I want an army with variety, so a Slav army does get Szekely, Jobbagy, warriors, horse archers and if I can get my hands on them some Brigands. (By the way, Szekely and Horse archers work different for me)

I'm glad there are so many units, and it is just not possible not to have some overlapping. But he, would you like to have just plain 'javelinmen' in your Slav, Spanish and Muslim army? Admit it, this way it is much better.

At the mortars, hehe, no I don't know a purpose (other than maybe, for bombarding the keep itself, the inner structure of the castle, to stop the arrows from there), but I like the atmosphere they bring when my Turks siege Constantinople. My battery of cannons must have some mortars with 'm, just for the ambiance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif My point of view of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kongamato]

Those Mortars and Bombards are weak, but it appears that the other gunpowder artillery units need an upgrade to the building.

So I guess if you need a siege gun really bad and dont care what you get, go Mortar or Bombard.

[Nowake]

well, indeed pretty useless I'd say, if I wouldn't have had the luck to kill 2 enemy generals by using a ballista. And oe of them was a king also http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Quokka]

Ballistas

They are inaccurate and have never caused fear in any of my troops. The AI builds way too many of them and doesn't know how to use them. How many times have you seen an attacking AI army line up with 6 immobile Ballistas in the 16, then walk the length of the map and attack with 10?
When I have had them they have never caused a single casualty.

[Longasc]

Handgunners and Arquebusiers - the whole musketman-line ist terrible... they are better in melee than firing their arms at all, btw

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya sez...

The ordinary "first available" cannons. They never hit anything, and they blow up every battle, killing more of your own peasantry than any casualties it could possibly have inflicted on the enemy had it managed to fire its entire load.

At least a ballista will hit something while making the enemy laugh at its sight...

GAH

[YunDog]

I have to think what units do I never build even if it means leaving a province with no garrison

peasants - of coarse - why bother with them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Urban Militia - unlike their big brothers the militia seagents - killing them is like cutting butter and they are fighting with the peasants to be the first running away.

Balistas - I dont think I ever built one

crossbows ? they seem to have a lower impact with their volleys and they are so slow firing that by the time they get off their second volley- the battles over and all your men are dead - but I still build them over vanilla archers

Slav units - Playing as poland I was having to make the most of these - they run like dogs and the javelin guys dont run away when skirmishing so they get killed - run - and rout half your army with them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I really think the game should allow you to run down your own men with your cavalry - dont you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[econ21]

Crossbows - nothing wrong in themselves, just they are redundant in the SP game, you can get arbalesters at the same time if you prepare for it.

I used to despise javelinmen, but now I think they just require more skill (and micro-management) than I (or the AI) have. They are very good at shooting heavy cavalry (eg kats) and I have seen them slaughter horse archers in a duel. But I confess I don't build them.

Slav warriors are not too bad - kind of like peasants (ie cheap garrisons) who can fight in emergency. I have some respect for them after the AI used them (and an 8 star general) to wipe out my AUM on expert.

[The Last Emperor]

The Handgunners and Arquebusiers r pretty useless and waste of $, they cant shoot properly to rack up any decent number of kills, even t lowly peasants have their use in breaking down gates in seiges if u lack those seige equipments and u get more for less cost too...love to see those peasants scream when they get hot oil on their back...hehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (The Last Emperor @ Sep. 10 2003,04:16)]The Handgunners and Arquebusiers r pretty useless and waste of $, they cant shoot properly to rack up any decent number of kills, even t lowly peasants have their use in breaking down gates in seiges if u lack those seige equipments and u get more for less cost too...love to see those peasants scream when they get hot oil on their back...hehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The purpose of handgunners and arquebusiers is not to rack up a large number of kills. They do hower work miracles in routing the enemy. When a unit gets hit be a gun volley, even though it only causes very light casualties, the morale drop is extreme for a few seconds. If the unit takes any casualties during those few seconds then it will almost certainly rout big time.

The thing is to use these units correctly. Send the handgunners around the already engaged enemy and fire point black at their back. Almost guaranteed to rout them unless they have extraordinarily high morale.

Faced with a vastly larger enemy force I took up a standard defensive position with a spear wall and all. In front of the spear wall I put one unit of arquebusiers and to their left and right I put a unit of arbalesters. Arbalesters have greater range so they fire first, killing some. The enemy march closer and the guns fire..... RUN Run for the hills Boy did they run. Any unit which didn't immideately run after being hit by bullets did so as soon the arbalesters added a few casualties. It's a fantastic combination. After the battle I could see that the guns had caused very few casualties but they did manage to rout almost all of the enemy army, again and again. I for one will be using arquebusiers but not as a kill all unit.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I know Slav warriors suck but come on we still love them for the bare topped craziness they bring to the battlefield http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[rory_20_uk]

I like the slavic warriors, not for their ability to fight, but in terms of cheap cannon fodder that can run like the blazes they are quite useful (e.g. for mopping up lots of archers). They can also be used to block the weaker units such as spearmen, and of course if they rout, they are not often caught. They are a cheap and plentiful unit, and I treat them as such.
Aruebusiers are also very useful in a semicircle formtaion at bridge crossings to blast ragged holes in the enemy as they form. Again, archers kill a mot more people, but they have more ammo (if that is a consideration) and 4 units all shooting at one unit usually causes them to run in flight. The punch that they offer also means that if epensive horses are the first over, they can be badly mauled before they reach your lines.
Ballistas are poorly used by the AI, and are of only marginal use to me - as a stopgap measure usually. I go to catapults and don't usually bother with anything else; catapults can sometimes do significant casualties, and of course help to deplete morale from many units at once.

[NewJeffCT]

post-patch, I think crossbows, bombards and mortars are the most useless. Why build a crossbow unit if you can build arbalesters or pavise arbalesters? Why build a bomard or mortar when you can build a culverin or demi-culverin/cannon or siege cannon?

[Swamp Thing]

Simply put, anything with a spear attached

The higher you go in difficulty, the more useless they get.

Arquebusiers are also a major waste of time and money. The most common combat scenario for me goes something like this:

Enemy advances

Arquebusiers form up and aim

Enemy gets closer

Arquebusiers wait

Enemy gets closer

Arquebusiers wait

Enemy gets in range.

Arquebusiers prepare to fire.

Enemy about to charge

Arquebusiers fire.

Nothing.

Enemy charges.

My guys get slaughtered.

Also, anything used by the Muslims after the early period. The Euros will tank all over them

[The Last Emperor]

Well Cazbol, seems tat u r rite on using Handgunners and Arquebusiers as a "Scare" unit to drastically decrease enemy's units by flanking and going tru the back, so they have their use after all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ...but for me, speed and units tat pack a heavy punch would be favoured for flanking and pincer purposes so guess those heavy cavalries have been doing the "Scaring" role with lots more killing at the same time...hehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Cardinal]

Pesants, pesants...... complete and utter rubbish. Keep them plowing field, yhat's their only use.

Still http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif every cloud has a silver lining. Unwilling to throw myself into the "slav" debate, in my experience whenever the baltic and some slavic provinces revolt (at least in the early game) their armies usually comprise loads of pesants. Slughtering them is a fine way to give your heirs some experience and to avoid the "avarice" vice. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

So, if you wish to increase your enimies generals stats, build pesants.

[squippy]

I reckon Arquebussiers will work well if placed on a hill slope above and behind the fighting line, so that they can fire down into the melee at leasure.

I say this becuase I have seen Arq's rack up a number of kills. I had three Arq units and some arbs in a cav-heavy Byzantine army assaulting rebell mongols in Kiev. Most of their two stacks were slav warriors and heavy steppe cav.

I approached at full speed in my favoured double infantry line. My cav were there to provide cover for the Arq's who had to deploy and form up on the run. But becuase of this, the enbemy was forced to mill about in front of the Arq units - and later, as the fighting moved, the became an advanced right flank pouring fire into the enemy left.

Ok, they took some casualties, but each of the 3 arq units got between 37 and 48 kills.

[A.Saturnus]

About the use of Handgunners, Arquebusiers and Hashishin you`ll find several threads in the archiefs.
Szekely and Turcoman are better than horse archers. For the Hungarians there might be an overlap between Szekely and Steppe Heavys.
Mamluk HA are somewhat obsolete with VI due to Faris, but you can build them in Late.
Ghulam cavalry is not entirely obsolete, even if you have AHC. If you train Ghulams in Lesser Armenia with a Master horsebreeder and retrain them in a province with weapons upgrades, they can become more than a match for any knight.
A unit that is really useless (to that extent that it wasn`t even mentioned yet): Mamluk Handgunners

[DemonArchangel]

ok, now, another utterly useless unit is the Varangian Guard (Just kidding&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[LadyAnn]

MamlukHA
It is covered in another thread but I would add:
As Egypt in MP, it is fun to field 4 MamlukHA and 4 Faris and have a running around army. I didn't say it is easy to win with such army, but it is quite fun. (I am not first to say this in this thread even);

PolishRetainer
In SP, they certainly are not useless. It takes only a HorseBreeder2 to produce these guys, while it takes RoyalCourt3, HorseBreeder3 and Armourer3 to produce ChivalricKnights (meaning you need at least a castle too). That means you can produce Polish Retainers on almost any province: upgrade to HorseBreeder2 first to get Pol.Ret. and then upgrade other stuff to get Chiv.Knights later.
So what if you need to use 2 Pol.Ret. to kill a Chiv.Kn.? It costs you only 300 per Ret. while it costs 675 per Ch.Kn. It costs only 12/man to maintain Pol.Ret., while it costs 17 to maintain Ch.Kn.
Just to say that I had to rely on PolishRetainers in my SP campaign even though I could produce Ch.Kn.

Annie

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (Vanya @ Sep. 09 2003,17:27)]The ordinary "first available" cannons. They never hit anything, and they blow up every battle, killing more of your own peasantry than any casualties it could possibly have inflicted on the enemy had it managed to fire its entire load.
In my experience they blow up less than half the time and then usually after firing about half their ammo. I'm using them extensively in my current campaign because these are the only siege cannons that are available in the high era (they are available through inns). I only use them to tear down fortifications but there they do a lot of damage. There is no need to place your troops close to the bombards so they shouldn't have to suffer if the thing blows up.

[Qilue]

I like Polish Retainers, I just wish they were available in early.

Bulgarian Brigands - bowyer4 for an archer that can run away faster.

[DemonArchangel]

i gave em' a longbow, and a nice big mace, problem solved.