Principes

[Catiline]

Quote[/b] ]Legion Principes
The Principes are slightly older men, reliable warriors, and continue a battle once the Hastati are spent. Principes are heavy spearmen who make up the second line of an early Republican Legion. They recruited in the prime of their lives in their late 20s and early 30s. They wear mail, a bronze helmet, carry a long shield and also a long sword for both cutting and thrusting under an enemy’s shield.

Principes march in the centre of a Legion’s three parallel battle columns and take the middle line when the Legion wheels into battle. At crucial moments in battle they are ordered forward through Hastati to press an attack. They also cover gaps in the maniple formations used by the Legion as a whole.

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/ropri.jpg

[Stormer]

they look just the same as the triarii, but sound pretty cool

[Fearless]

Don't put these up against elephants, heavy infantry get massacred

[Rajput]

All these Roman units look so similar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Not complaining, I suck at Roman history in general so its probably just me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Kraxis]

You know, I wondered why there have been a roar over here at the blatant unhistorical Principes.

They didn't use spears, and that is very very very well known. I wonder why they are presented like this.
So any of you that have watched Time Commanders, was it only the Triarii that were armed with spears and the two other types that had pila and swords?

[Divine Wind]

Hmm..if i remember correctly Kraxis the Triarii had short swords only. Thats all they had to defend themselves while they were getting stomped on by the Carthigian Elephants.

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Divine Wind @ Sep. 09 2003,12:14)]Hmm..if i remember correctly Kraxis the Triarii had short swords only. Thats all they had to defend themselves while they were getting stomped on by the Carthigian Elephants.
ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

But no, I can't believe they would not give the Triarii their spears. Are you sure?

[Vanya]

GAH

Nonsense Vanya knows of EASY way to defeat elephants And youz don't even need a sword -- or any weapon for that matter

Here's how: Just carry handfulls (or bag loads if youz are paranoid about self-preservation) of peanuts. When elephant draws near, shower it with the peanuts. The elephant will develop a loving for your generosity Once you have the animal sucking peanuts from your hand http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif , start throwing the li'll nuts over the enemy The 'phants will trample their own men to get to the tasty nuts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

It's like taking candy from a baby, baby http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

GAH

[Murmandamus]

Hey, that's a good idea. I was going to dress my front line in mouse costumes but was worried about the heat in summer campaigns. It can get pretty hot and sweaty in those costumes.

Peanuts sounds like a solution for all seasons, though I think the furries in the ranks will be rather dissapointed with the change in tactic. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hakonarson]

Principes carried spears at some time before the nominal RTW period (starting 264BC) - they changed to pilum around about the time of the battles with Phyrus - AFAIK we don't know if it was just before them (ie before 275BC), or during or just (275-270BC)after them perhaps as a result of the experience.

So spear armed Principes are in the rough time frame.....more so than Egyptian chariots at least.......but still not so wonderful.

For those who think the Roman units look the same -that's because they were pretty much the same

There were only marginal differences between the 3 lines of heavy infantry in a pre-Marian legion - so marginal that Marius had no problems at all making them into homogenous legions of a single type of heavy infantry (plus velites for another 2 decades or so)

[deejayvee]

To expand on Hak's post, after about 275BC the Hastati, Principes and Triarii were an age/experience differentiation.

The Hastati were the young green troops, and tended to be slightly lighter armed compared to the others. By the time of the Marian reforms, the Hastati had basically replaced the Velites as skirmishers, when required. They were armed with scutum shield, gladius and pila.

The Principes were the core troops in the prime of their life. They were experienced campaigners. They were also armed with scutum shield, gladius and pila.

The Triarii were the old grizzly veterans, who didn't fight too much but were useful as camp guards and for training the junior legionaries. They were armed with a spear instead of pila.

[Nowake]

INdeed, so there is something I don't get They say that these poeple are recruited in their 20, 30. SO, the hastati remain hastati all their lives? IIRC, they would advance to principes after some campaigning, no?

I mean, even if they have 30, if they are recruited then, they should be hastati, no? Of course, exceptions exist, but this is the general rule.

[Divine Wind]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Sep. 09 2003,12:30)]
Quote[/b] (Divine Wind @ Sep. 09 2003,12:14)]Hmm..if i remember correctly Kraxis the Triarii had short swords only. Thats all they had to defend themselves while they were getting stomped on by the Carthigian Elephants.
ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

But no, I can't believe they would not give the Triarii their spears. Are you sure?
Im afraid so mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif I just watched it again on video and all they have is swords.

[Hakonarson]

No Hastati didn't necessarily remain Hastati all their lives - they "graduated" when they were old and rich enough.

Since Roman soldiers were all free-men and mainly small farmers this progression was a given - the longer yuo lived the more wealt you accumulated.

Triarri weren't necessarily all that grizzled either - there weer older soldiers Legions weer recruited only from those men 46 and younger. Men 47 and older were retained for home defence - THEY were the grizzled ones http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The Roman army was always split along wealth lines for as long as we've known about it - Livy (I think) records 5 classes of troops ascribed to Tullius about 500BC - the richest are hoplites, the 2nd & 3rd are spearmen using scuta instead of hoplons (2nd is required to hhve greave IIRC), 4th has spear and javelin but no shield or armour, 5th has sling or javelin.

Cammillus formed "legions" about 400BC with only teh Hastati having Pila - these may have been the old 3rd class, while teh 1st and 2nd were combined into the Principes & Triarii, and the 4th and 5th became Velites/leves.

DJV - where do you get that Hastati were replacements for velites? Velites are attested to until well after Marius's reforms (I beleive the last reference to them is in 80BC - so another generation)

[deejayvee]

Hak,

I think it was in Peter Connolly's Greece and Rome at War - I'll have to check. It was more a case of some Hastati taking on and fulfilling the role of the Velite. I assume this happened when there was a shortage of Velites, for whatever reasons.

[Hakonarson]

Some one argued in "Slingshot" recently that Hastati were really sirmishers anyway. I didn't see teh article but but it was generally panned and I don't see how they could be and still do the fighting that we know they did.

Also I guess it depends what you consider the role of the velites - as a screen to keep enemy away from deploying heavy infantry then any troops might do, but I doubt you'd want to use your fist assault force/front line of heavy infantry for that role unless you were very hard put.

[deejayvee]

I don't think they replaced them on the battlefield, more in the other peripheral tasks such as scouting and skirmishing.

[Kraxis]

Yes, I agree that earlier the 'principes' were armed with spears, but I always thought they abandoned that around 350BC, Allia giving them a trauma.

But if the legionaries in Time Commanders don't use spears, then it is ok (I have seen Hastati in fearless' shots).

[Sir Robin]

I have been wondering how the change from pre-Marian to post-Marian legion units will be handled.

I would expect for a time that both unit types will be available as the earlier classes are phased out.

It might be handled as an event similar to the compass and gunpowder events in MTW.

Still nice to have the building blocks of the earlier legions on display.

[Nowake]

That was my point, Hark I mean, they refer to principes as being recruited in their 30's, which is not very true, no?

[Hakonarson]

It sems true enough to me PR - what's yuor problem with it?

the Roman army was not pernamently established - legions were often recruited for only a campaign season and then disbanded, and recruitment as done by lot - the citizens assembled in their centuries on the field of Mars and each century selected the required number of men (more if there weer several or larger armies being raised).

So a principe might well be "recruited" in his 30's.

Or are you refering to recruitment in the sense of the first time an individual served? In that case no, it was unlikely that someone would have not served at all by the time he was 30 - possible I supose. but unlikely.

[DBS]

Oh dear

As Kraxis and Hakonarson say, we don't really know when the principes adopted the pilum - it almost certainly was not as early as post-Allia, since that probably marks the transition from essentially hoplite methods to "legionary" methods - but most likely around the Pyrrhic period as Hak suggests, and almost certainly by the 1st Punic War. Either way, given that a design choice has to be made, for heavens sakes go for pila

I can see some heavy-duty unit editing being needed when RTW issues

[Nowake]

Or are you refering to recruitment in the sense of the first time an individual served? In that case no, it was unlikely that someone would have not served at all by the time he was 30 - possible I supose. but unlikely.

Indeed, that was my point. And if you talk about roman citizens, maybe they would have served, but when you think of the italic people that formed the recruitment mass, many of them had almost no training in the roman military. To take one of these men and make him a principes from the first draft ... it's not that logic.


But anyway, my concern is that experienced hastati will not be available for upgrade to principes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ Sep. 14 2003,04:44)]But anyway, my concern is that experienced hastati will not be available for upgrade to principes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
Well, I'm more interested in them being portrayed correctly armed and equipped.

The 'upgrade to Principes' for Hastati would be great, but not really important to me.

But as far as inexperienced 'older' men would become Principes, why not? I seem to remember it to be a matter of wealth and age and not experience that had the troops placed in the various groups.