New patch made the game worst.

[theforce]

I am in this game from day one and l must say that until now all patches while having their problems offered nice play online. This patch though is crap. Not because of many errors but one big one. The cav now is way to powerful. Everybody in the foyer has a lot of cav and most newbies adopt cavalry rushing techniques. I have been in battles with 32 nag cav attacked us in a 2v2 in totomi. Before you could block them with the ys and nag. You must have at least 6 ys or nag in your army to stand a chance against the cav now. People is still using cav musket combo or musket cav monks combo.
I would like thing to come back as they used to be. Original Shogun settings with regular unit power and stuff like that. Muskets were unable to fire at rain and snow and people would use more archers. New patch doesn't seem to have reduced the number of guns people cury arounf either.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[solypsist]

i still havent gotten the patch
i'll check it out when i get around to playing stw:we againb, which prob won't be until tournament time.
it can't be that bad, if it was okay'd by org people, who are here often enough to hear what players have to say and want

[Tankdogg123]

I personally have not come across a cav rusher I have been playing good people recently well at least honourable people so there is probaly some people around.

[MIZILUS]

I'm not sure what to think yet...I will say though that since the patch I havent played an all nag cav rush army. Though I'm sure they still exist.

[Gothmog]

Sorry I know this isn't amusing, but I can't help laughing.

What can I say? My thoughts:

1) No matter how you set up the game, there will always be rushers around.

2) Human's imagination is limitless.

3) If anything exists, there must be a reason for it.

[ragedevil]

heh, I',m sorry that i have to disagree with you guys, but if you cant beat a nag cav rush youre doin something wrong. I've faced 3 attemts of it and found it incredibly easy to beat with my normal army. Nag cav rush isnt even as effective as a monk rush in old shogun, due to the damage horses take from spears and guns. If you want to beat a nag cav rush, simply learn what a more balanced army is.
RageDevil

[BakaGaijin]

I trust the Beta Team when they say that they tested all of the potential rushes -- including the all-cav rush. No offence, theforce-dono, but maybe you're doing something wrong. =X

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Puzz3D]

theforce,

The NC, YC and CA are 20% weaker in general, and 40% weaker against YS and YA than in WE/MI v1.01. The NC rush was more of a problem in v1.01 than it is now. Only the HC is more powerful by 30%, and it still looses to YS. Spears, protected guns and cav are all counter measures against cav. It's the heavy shock troop armies that are in trouble against cav. You are correct that typically 6 YS are needed to stop 16 cav, but that still allows you to field a balanced army if you want to.

It's possible that guns are still too effective, but reload is longer which really hurts in the rain. Rate of fire for musk in 3 rows jumps from 7 sec to 35 sec in moderate rain. Archers are more effective against guns, but it does appear that you are still in trouble if you do not win the ranged battle against guns. A gun unit can still get 200 kills, and typically gets 60 - 100 which is a lot.

One problem I'm having is fielding an army that's too balanced, and not strong enough in any one aspect to overcome the enemy army. There is a gamble necessary in army choice to tip the odds in your favor.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[BakaGaijin]

It would only be fair to make a suggestion after nearly insulting theforce-dono (many apologies, but it needed to be said), so here's mine.

Perhaps it would be wise to add a unit or two of either HC or YC into your standard setup. This way, you have a unit to act as a defensive cavalry unit to stop the enemy Nagi Cav rushing. Either one of those units will likely defeat the Nagi Cav, as HC is just stronger overall and YC has a higher charge bonus and bonus against other cav, not to mention that it's fast enough to forestall the enemy's attack before your infantry are placed in jeopardy.

And you've now got an extra card to play if your opponent is NOT a rusher.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[This message has been edited by BakaGaijin (edited 12-06-2001).]

[Polar]

have to agree with devil. an army with 4 spears can easily beat all cav rush controled by a lesser skilled player. cavs now are just what they r supposed to be, they should beat all infantry except pikemen. if they r back to old stw, then no 1 would use cavs, every body will do all gun/monk again.
i some times bring all cav too, not that i like to rush or want an easy win (its not easy). but its more fun and challenging to use them, coz cavs r harder to control and an oponent with balanced army has a fairly good chance to win.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Hmmm.... now I have to admit confusion....
My opponent takes 16 units - all Cav.
To hold this I need 6 units of spears. Now - correct me if I am wrong - but if he has enough koku for 16 cav units - I surely have enough for a few more after my 6 spears.... meaning that once his units are in the teeth of my spears, a flanking force of 3-4 units can engage and decimate him from the rear. If he turns to engage the flankers - he has spears in his arse... If he doesnt, then he has the flanking units tearing his heart our thru his back. Even better if my flankers are cav - as they excel in the flanking role. So let's see - I win against a cav rusher using 10 or 12 units - 4-6 units less than he does - and win quite easily at that simply by balancing my army a bit.

Ok, that proves it - how is cav overpowered again? I just don't see it, sorry.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Vanya]

I've never met a cav rusher I didn't beat. [Crosses fingers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif ] So far, though, I must admit I have never seen a ninja rush... have seen kensai rushes, but no ninja rushes. I am disapointed...

[BakaGaijin]

I'll do one tonight, just for you. After The Tick. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[MountainSoul]

A cav rush in the hands of someone who knows what they r doing is a ruthless tool.Nagacav are great melee units with great moral ,u cant tell me that a spear unit will hold out against a nagacav frontal + a nagacav flank we all know the spears will run.However a nagacav rush in the hands of a mediocre player is a thing to be mocked and swept aside with the back of ones hand.And tell me devil, what if the defender has 4 units of artillery too and the attacker chooses rain ,arrows are useless against nagacav at the best of times, guns in the rain are just pointless ,really u must have beaten off some real less than average cav rushes devil caus the only way I know how to defend agains a good player doing that is square up your men to face all sides grit your teeth and hang in caus if u have missile units he is going to get the flank of a unit somewhere along the line.In the spirit of the original post though I love the new patch because I love adapting and all these so-called "old soldiers" who think they have some kind of special connection with the game just caus they played from "day one" always seem to whinge the most.All I can say is get with the program and learn how to adapt and approach things with more of an open attitude.I LOVE THE NEW PATCH!!!!!!

[BakaGaijin]

You can put your penis back in your pants now. And yes, we HAVE seen bigger.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[tootee]

I agree that a balanced army can beat the NC rush pretty easy. And so far, my SA is even better than the opponent musk. I still see people using 4/5 musks, but they are not as powerful as last time, and with good tactics, can be even by my cheaper SA0, and the koku saving goes to better melee/flanking units..

There is at least one balanced army that I know that can take out NC rusher by a 10:1, but you gotta find it! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

--goldfish

[MountainSoul]

erm... if the penis comment was directed towards me then I must honestly explain myself.. I did have my back turned and I was actually relieving myself for I had just drank a large coffee, my suggestions would be for u to see someone about your penchant for spying on mens genitalia. 8P

j/k

[Kocmoc]

i agree with devil,

and i wrote tis somewhere already, there will be always rushs.
BUT, a nagcavrush is to beat, sure it depends
on ur setup, if u havnt any spears, it will hard, but this exactly this is the balance of this game now....spears beat cav and cav
can beat other units....thats the way.


if u have 2 or more spears with u...
cover a flank, open the spears in 1 or 2 rows
and hold formation and hold position, this
spears can hold many NC for a long time, and they win against some of them...


koc

[Erado San]

Well, we never claimed any rush was impossible after patch 1.02. And yes, in 2v2 you have to be aware of all opponents taking all cav and rushing one of the enemy players.

But seriously, when the 2 players involved in a single battle are of equal quality, the cav rush is pretty much doomed.

The only thing we noticed is when the all cav army is in the hands of a player as skilled as Magyar, then you are in trouble. But Magy didn't rush, he used specific tactics that are incredibly effective and difficult to beat. And arguably, whenever you are facing players of that quality, you are always in trouble, no matter what army he picks.

Picking a balanced army is crucial now. If you lean towards ranged units too much you run a big risk. But with very few ranged units you can also get in trouble. Just try different army selections and find a few that suit your playing style. I already have 3 or 4 standard armies that I can throw at anything and still have a chance no matter what.

[theforce]

I have always used a balanced army. Even when they are crap now with HC is veery very hard to beat. I usually have 4-6 YS H5 with armour upgrade. I use them as first line against cav bucked up with guns. I use some wm or nd to hold the line. Also units that were weak against cav like nd are now crap and u. Rest go flanking. The problem with can is that they are fast so the muskets have 1 or 2 firing shots. Next the are so many that the first line which is blocking them get a huge morale penatly. Next they are so fast that they can go in any direction fo your flank. And also they pile up like a big circle and flanking them is no use since they are hard to kill and they kill my h5 ys in no time. At least with wm were infantry and had losses when rushing from guns and high armoured units blocked them for the flankers to do the job. I am sure that someone has noticed this before but JC now piles up where it rushes and kills everything is there. Yeap l have evn tired nag as first line. I think that ys should be beefed up against cav! I mean they are 3m spears against cav!!! the try for beefing up the HC was a nice idea but they gone too far. In the old days l could block an entire cav army with my 4 ys and 4 other units to hold the line and flank.
Cav was used as a flanking weapon as it should be not a direct attack on ys.
Open the ys in a 2 lines kocmoc?!?!
A HC rush will pass them no problems. I have 4-6 ys in 4-5 lines backed up by other units and they get though!
I tried playing some low koku games, too. 1000 koku it totomi where l thought there wouldn't be any cav!!! (stupid me) :P
The newbie got a HC and 2 ys and chanrged!!! I couldn't believe it! I had lots of ashis. I pilled it up and attacked and the HC attacked them!!! It was messy a H2 HC against H1 ashis. The cav run because of the number of the ashis along with the ys! Point is now people is using them at low koku, too!

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too. http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[This message has been edited by theforce (edited 12-07-2001).]

[DoCToR]

Well from your post, the force, it seems you don't use much in the way of cavalry yourself?! What this patch does do, is make cavalry more important than they used to be. People that take all foot soldiers are bound to be in trouble if their opponent has some cavalry becasue they sacrifice a lot in manoeuvrability. This will instantly render the army with only foot soldiers into a more defensive role, one not suited to being the attacker i hasten to add.

Why not include a couple of high honour YC instead of lots of very high honour YS? High honour YC are good cavalry killers and have much greater manoeuvrability than YS. Any unit, whether it be YS or not, will suffer badly if hit in the rear or flank by another unit especially if it's charging cavalry...

I suggest you give the patch some more time and adapt your tactics as it does play differently from the older versions...

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=MizuDoc Otomo=
=Clan Takiyama=

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Kocmoc:

if u have 2 or more spears with u...
cover a flank, open the spears in 1 or 2 rows
and hold formation and hold position, this
spears can hold many NC for a long time, and they win against some of them...
[/QUOTE]

I like to add that if there are forest patches nearby, and you see the opponent has the cav army, you can use the forest to protect one flank, using just ND in the forest (they will have relative bonus for fighting cav in forest), and save the spears on the open-spaced flank and rear.

On the point about NC army in the hand of an expert is devastating, so is a balanced army. I dont believe an experience player with fast control and smart tactics can't beat an NC rush using balanced army.

--goldfish

[theforce]

I do the forest trick in nagashima where a lot of fights take place.If defender l deploy behind the hill and if he has regular army l run into the trees if a cav rusher then woods for me it is http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I had only a cav rush today which ended cool for me in nagashima. Other 2 games l had today were with cool guys with not so many cav and 1 or 2 HC did the job.
I thin now that guns should get beefed up again like before but lets make then unable to shoot in anything above rain and snow. That will make people reduce the amount of muskets they have. Also l have seen some poele who have started using archers again including me but most stick to the guns for now. We shall wait and see.


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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[BakaGaijin]

Arquebuses have supposedly had their damage buffed up. Dunno if it's true. You might taking Arqs along instead of Muskets to do a little more damage, if you're sure it won't rain. With either of the gun units, I suggest you switch to 2-row firing when faced with cav. If you're only gonna get one or two volleys off, make them BIG volleys! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

MS: Good to see you've got good humour, after all. You were getting a bit cocky (pun? maybe. maybe not. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif) here and moreso in another thread, so I figured I might guide you towards the path of humility. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Gothmog]

Quote Originally posted by MountainSoul:
A cav rush in the hands of someone who knows what they r doing is a ruthless tool.Nagacav are great melee units with great moral ,u cant tell me that a spear unit will hold out against a nagacav frontal + a nagacav flank we all know the spears will run.However a nagacav rush in the hands of a mediocre player is a thing to be mocked and swept aside with the back of ones hand.And tell me devil, what if the defender has 4 units of artillery too and the attacker chooses rain ,arrows are useless against nagacav at the best of times, guns in the rain are just pointless ,really u must have beaten off some real less than average cav rushes devil caus the only way I know how to defend agains a good player doing that is square up your men to face all sides grit your teeth and hang in caus if u have missile units he is going to get the flank of a unit somewhere along the line.In the spirit of the original post though I love the new patch because I love adapting and all these so-called "old soldiers" who think they have some kind of special connection with the game just caus they played from "day one" always seem to whinge the most.All I can say is get with the program and learn how to adapt and approach things with more of an open attitude.I LOVE THE NEW PATCH!!!!!![/QUOTE]

I am totally with MountainSoul San in this matter. It makes me laugh to see people whining about one rush or another all the time.

Come on, the rushers aren't EVEN CHEATING!!!!

And the all-calvary isn't even a rush at all.

Like the other veterans said: either you beat them with skills, or take a deep breath and see what you have done wrong, and if you can learn from anything from the defeats.

And stop calling rushers NEWBIE!
This is just so rude. Since we are all newbies once, and being newbie or not, it has NO CONNECTION whatsoever with the honor or honesty.

Follow the same logic, some can be called OLD BAGS, or OLD STICKS too, you got the idea.

Some people are plainly upset just because they can't win all the time. Or the battles are not fought the way they wanted them to be. That's just so ... (insert any word here).



[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 12-07-2001).]

[theforce]

Well l have played MountainSoul and while using cav he doesn't use a lot. He is a very good player. He used cavalry smartly all the times l played him but not in our last fight.
He is quite a guy.
My point mate is that people are rushing all the time and that takes the fun of setting on the right flank then attacking with some melle and then shooting there and going back and....and .... you get what l am talking about!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by BakaGaijin:
Arquebuses have supposedly had their damage buffed up. Dunno if it's true. You [/QUOTE]
When the patch was released, I tried using arq online (substituting musk2 with arq4+w1). I thought their higher penetration and honor than musk2 would translate to equal or more kills. But it seems like they reload too slowly to make effective kills. Since they have shorter range, I usually use them only when engaging HTH, placed behind the melee troops, instead of a missile standoff duel. And they risk raining day. So now I have switched back to musk2.

--goldfish

[theforce]

I have tried an experiment in green between an AI musket unit and an arq unit used by me. I used a 3 line deep formation. At first the arq were winning with the first 2 shots making arq 58 and musket 48. I thought they would win easily. After that arq were shotting way off target with 1 or 2 killes in every volley. Muskets on the other hand were too accurate and routed the arq and 38 muskets left while my arq were around 14. Note that the arq were of higher honor so that the cost would be the same as muskets. Maybe another up[date will beef up aq, too bit.

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[tootee]

I think the beta testers mentioned that the arq is suited as a cav stopper, protect by a line of spears of cos. Since as you mentioned the initial volley is devastating, it must be worse for the cav.

Is people using less ND? I see its about 3wm:2nd ratio. And HC is definitely cool as a general, mentioned numerous times.

--goldfish

[Puzz3D]

theforce,

The arq costs 100 koku and the muskett 250 koku. Certainly the arq should loose. Guns are not affected very much by increasing the unit's honor. The main effect is that the unit can withstand more casualties. Now if you bring 2 arq's and engage one musk you should beat the musk, and you spent less koku.

It's a misconception that the guns in v1.02 are weak. Typical kills in battle are 60 to 100 with over 200 kills possible. I haven't beaten an army with 6 musk yet. I'm trying not to take 6 musk myself, but it isn't working. Make guns stronger? I don't think so.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[theforce]

Well in multiplayer games most get 16 units. Higher honor means higher accuracy mate. Anyway people now use less nd due to their weakness against cavalry.

------------------
Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[Erado San]

Higher honour has nothing to do with accuracy.

[MountainSoul]

DOH!!!! so what you are saying erado is that if we use guns wisely we dont need chunks of honour on them???if i understand rightly the position and angle of the gun unit accounts for the accurracy right i.e facing off frontally, flanking ,height and so on.So what i guess i need to know is does honour on guns account for more kills or does it just let them hang around longer.

TooT!! TooT!!

[Erado San]

That's exactly right. A H0 gun or archer unit kills exactly the same as a H9 unit, as long as they're left alone. The H0 will run sooner when it suffers casualties of course, but that's it.

[MountainSoul]

Very much obliged for that promopt response Mr Erado, I am now off to train my muskettry some more so watch out everybody I'll be handing out shiny new sharp naginatas to all my monks now that I know for sure honour on missiles doesnt increase kills.

TooT!! TooT!! aaaAAALLLll aAABOOOAAaarrd

[Kraellin]

for those wishing a breakdown of what various stats do, or dont do, see Target's thread in the mods forum. he breaks all the stats down there.

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

[theforce]

Anyway. I see now that many people attack the first line (guns and archers) with cavalry. A low honor gun or archer will run like hell. That was cool l togh that the honor beefs up the accuracy, too.
Also l noted that a unit with higher honor suffers less casualties when under projectile fire. I shall reduce my musket honor and buy some more amrour for them. Also what is the ideal armour for them. The one who is between most stopping bullet and arrow power and koku value ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Is it level 1,2 or 3?

------------------
Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[Tankdogg123]

Most good players don't use all cav to rush... except for me.

[Kocmoc]

hey theforce,

i hope u see it now from an other view...
this patch is good, u just need a bit time to see all the nice things in the patch.

i hope u enjoy it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


koc

[Funkybax]

I prefer the old 60 cav.
Bye.
Funkybax

[Catiline]

As I've said before cav rush = sausage meat

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Oderint dum metuant

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Dun mean to top this again but someone in this thread said that honour does not effect ranged kills.

THat my friend is completely BOGUS. At least for archers anyway. If you increase the honour of a archer unit, the number of kills it makes gos up too. I'v seen this MANY times. As for guns, eh, I'm not sure, the effect isn't as big for sure, maybe non-existant.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[theforce]

Hmmmm my h2 a1 muskets perform like my old h4 muskets with no upgrades. Anyway l have been told that honor doesn't matter. I saw that a h0 projectile unit will do the same damage that a h4 projectile unti will cause to a h0 no-dashi for example. Though higher honor units don't seem to suffer so much from projectile. Or is this all in my mind!

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Its all in your mind. THere is a definate increase of ROF in a ranged unit. Musket and Archer both. Its hard to notice really, so I can't blame you.

Each volley does the same amount of damage, no matter the honour, but high honour allows a couple extra volleys to get in there. Over a long, defensive game this extra speed can add up if the ranged units are past 5 in honour.

I tested it, bloody hell..HOnour 9 archers widled a unit of No-dachi down to almost 25-30 men by the time they reached them where as honour 0 was around 40-45 men left.

------------------
"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Erado San]

Hirojima, you're wrong.

Range Of Fire is a fixed value, not changed by honour in any way. So is damage, and so is the firing rate.

The only factor that is influenced by Morale is the time it takes to rout a ranged unit, and they could take more casualtied from other ranged units before they run. This will extend the number of volleys they can get in before they run.

No other stat concerning their effectiveness as a ranged unit is altered by higher morale.

[Gothmog]

Erado San:

Are you by any chance confusing morale with honor?

The confusion might come from the troopstats file, where there is an entry called "honor", but from what I see, it's actually just morale, and indeed it has nothing to do with killing efficiency, and only helps to determine how long a unit can hold while taking casulties.

Now however, we are talking about the "honor" by the definition that we usually use here. And based on my experience, high honor does make the range units more efficient, and it increase their H2H fighting power as well (not that it really matters).

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,

Honour in TroopStat.txt seems indeed to be morale and morale only.

The honor upgrades you buy, contains 2 Morale points, and alternating +1 Def and +1 Melee. Thus a upgraded unit gets better HTH combatstats.

An upgraded missile unit thus has higher morale and will stand and fire longer (makes more ranged kills). But it has also better HTH combat, so it will make more kills in HTH fight. Morale or honor has no significant influence on either the power of fired missiles or the accuracy of those. The whole influence of morale/honor on ranged kills is that the unit is braver.

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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[Erado San]

No, I am not confusing much at all. As Tosa explained, Morale and Honor are linked. Nowhere, believe me, is there a link between honour or Morale and ranged stats. An H0 Musk unit fires equally effective as an H9 one. If you see a difference, it's either coincidence or in the mind.

In fact, I have a standard army with tactics that include 2 ranged units that are positioned where I don't mind them running too much and one that should not rout quickly. So I buy 2 H0 units and one H3 unit. They truy perform equally well.