Medmod IV v3.09 Final Beta Update

[WesW]

I have posted the 3.09, final beta for the first public release of the Medmod IV version 3.

The only changes I plan to make between now and the public release are bug fixes and economic adjustments.
I have made the final unit changes and additions, as well as concept adjustments.

I have worked on the Excel stats file and the mod description text to the point that they should be completely accurate, except for the Era page of the spreadsheet. This includes up-to-date "homelands", "units text" and "unit stats" pages, as well as the new "unit names" page.
By correctly using these resources, you should be able to obtain virtually any level of knowledge you desire about the mod.
For example, you would use the description text to gain detailed info on the mod's concepts and general changes to the game.
For the specific stats of the units, you can use their descriptions in conjunction with the Unit Stats page.
For the building requirments for each unit, you can refer to the Unit Names page, in conjunction with column Q of the Units Text page. Both are required because many units have different internal and external names. External, or screen names, are the ones you see when you play the game.

The Units Text page, which is a direct paste of the game's units text, can be used for many other things as well. The column headers for this page explain what info each column contains.
You may want to order the units by faction, column AC for example, to see a list of a faction's unique units, or you can look up any of the other info contained in the game's units text. This includes price ©, upkeep (D), turns to build (E), number of men per unit (H), region bonuses (M), movement speed and general stats (W), era and provincial restrictions (T & AD), special abilities such as armour-piercing, supporting ranks and bonuses versus cavalry units (AI to AQ), and dismounting info (AU & AV).

EDIT MATERIAL:

The above list is from the Release's Intro text that will be included in the mod. Looking up what you want can be a little complicated, but I don't know of another, better way of doing it given the massive amount of changes and additions to the game.
I haven't really gotten into figuring out how the Readme(s) will convey everything, since the new and expanded concepts now have enough material for their own, separate write-up, in addition to the individual faction descriptions.

When I started the Proposed Unit Lineup thread a couple of months ago, I said that this version of the mod would be the major overhaul that characterized the previous Medieval Modification Packs. I privately wondered if that could really be true, since I didn't have access to the types of AI and other files that were open in the Call-to-Power games.
Well, I think that this current version of the mod comes very close, and that the next version, which will have the new factions, will be the icing on the cake. I have been quite pleased and impressed with how the basic faction priority settings have so solidly altered AI performance in terms of what it builds. I guess this is a testament to the core code that CA put together.

I thought way back last year that here in MTW was finally a game that could challenge even a veteran player for a very long time. All it needed was essentailly more play-testing and experimentation. This mod goes way beyond that in some areas, but at its core it is basically a comprehensive fine-tuning of the basic game, with both minor and major concept expansions and developments where necessary to help with the game's relatively few short-comings.

Ok, enough of a preview of the public release introduction. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Let me see if I can cover all the changes since 3.08 without overwhelming you with details.

1)I think we should all thank forum members like A_B, and non-forum members like Sal, who have spent their own time giving something back to the mod by performing autorun tests.
While preforming my own autorun tests, I checked out the AI governors, and found a disturbing trend: Assigning General's stars took priority over acumen when assigning titles. The AI gave the governorships of provinces like Constantinople to the highest ranking general, regardless of his acumen. This was the major thing that was killing the Danes, since Denmark gave a star.
Therefore I have given the generalship bonus only to the poorest provinces in the game. I don't have a list, but they include old provinces like Trebizond, Arabia and Switzerland, and new ones like Finland, Tyrolia, Cyrenecia and Navarre. I tried to keep the total number of provinces that gave stars the same as before.

2)I made several changes to ships in an effort to tone down the rapid and, to me, amazing amounts of trade income that the Italians and others were generating. I eliminated some of the trade goods that I had given to coastal provinces, and changed others to lower-valued goods.
The basic "problem", as it were, is that most all provinces have ports now, which is significantly different than the un-modded game. The advantages to having the AI build Ports whenever it possibly can far out-weigh this negative, so I had to try some in-directs methods.
I have increased ship upkeep significantly, but when I added up the trade income of the wealthiest factions, I saw that upkeep was insignificant in their cases, and so would only hurt those factions with limited networks. Therefore further increases will not be beneficial.

What I "have" done I detailed in the descriptions text. Here is a paste:

Four seas have been eliminated from the game. Two of them, the Ionian and Marmara seas, were removed to help the AI keep trade connections to Venice and Constantinople, which are crucial to the survival of their factions. The other two, the Gulf of Cadiz and the Atlantic Ocean, were removed to split the map into northern and southern halves. This was done to keep factions from establishing over-sized trade networks that would skew the game's economic model.

Ships have been divided into four cultural lines, plus the Danish Longships. In addition, Early-era ships are restricted to that era only. High-era ships may be built in the Late era as well. And finally, all ships take three turns to build.
The Muslim ships stay the same, but can only be built in Muslim Homelands.
The Byzantines now have their own line, which will be shared with the new Serbian, Cuman and Kievan factions when they are added in a later version of the mod. Their line consists of Dromons, Fire Galleys and Cogs, and are restricted to the Byzantine Homeland, plus Kiev and Khazar.
The third line belongs to the Italians, Sicilians and Papists, and consists of Galleys, War Galleys and Gun Galleys. They can only be built in the Italian Homelands.
Finally, the last line belongs to the Catholics, and consists of Barques, Caravels and Carracks. Their are no provincial restrictions placed upon them due to the wide dispersion of their factions, the probable limited access that some of these factions will have to the coast, and the lower number of coastal provinces in the northern section of the map.

3)I gave every province in the game a region bonus for a unit. I like this fun and strategic element of the game, and I think most of you do, too. (BTW, I have changed Sardinia's bonus from Fire Galleys to War Galleys for the public release.)

4) I went through all the factions and studied their units' building requrements, which took all night Friday, and made a lot of changes to some of the factions. You really need to use the units text paste to check out the new requirements if you play as one of the Orthodox or Muslim factions.
I wanted at least one unit for every faction to require at least a Guild-level building in all of the basic troop-producing buildings, and I succeeded in all but a few cases.
I inserted the Royal Court line of buildings into the Russian heavy cav units, since their society was at least as feudal as those in the rest of Europe.
I found that the Muslim factions didn't need the Town Watch line for anything, in addition to the Royal Court line. This seemed like too much of an advantage to me, so I altered their Spear units to require Watches in addition to Spearmakers.

5)I found that I was really hampered in a High age game as the HRE by the Spear3 requirement for the Chiv Sgt-line of units, such as Teutonic Spearmen. What I have done is lower the Spearmaker to 2, and add the requirement of an Armourer 1. This lets them be constructed with a Keep, and come out with the same defense as before. I think the requirement of the additional building is a good penalty for the bonus of a lower Castle requirement.

6) I kept seeing Crusades built by small factions like the Sicilians, who often have no good way of getting it to the destination, so I have removed the Crusade ability from the Sicilians and Aragonese.
More than once in the past, Sicilian Crusades bound for Egypt have had to go through Venice, Constantinople and Antioch on an all-land route. This is ridiculous, and the expense to build and support Crusades is bad for these factions too, imo.

7)I standardized cavalry speeds into heavy, light and fast categories, with additional costs added to a unit's price for a speed higher than normal for their category.
I realized that the Charge speed for Heavy Cav was higher than the Run speed for Light Cav, which explained why heavy AI units, which can stay at attack speed practically indefinitely, were running down my light cav units.

8)I expanded the provinces that Serbian Husars may be recruited from to include Croatia, Hungary and Bulgaria, which mimics the old Armenian Hvy Cav setup.

9)I changed the eras for basic Archers to include the High era, since I usually like to have an Archer-type in all my armies up through at least the High age to use against light Catholic and standard Muslim units.

10)I added back the extra 2 attack points to the Outremer Spearmen and Infantry units, partially for the building requirements.

11)I added Hungarian Nobles to the anti-cav cavalry unit list, joining the Kns of Dobrzyn and the Dienseutian-whatever HRE unit. This gives the Huns five distinct cavalry units, and warrants the inclusion of Nobles in all periods.

12)YG will appreciate the fact that I pumped up Czeladz Lancers a little and made them the Polish High BG unit, freeing the Dobrzyns to assume more closely their historical role as an independent crusader order. I made them require a Chapter House, and since Houses are unique this can give them an HQ.

13)I discovered that I had not reduced the cost of most Muslim units so that they get their increased man-power for free, and I also realized that they were still having to pay extra upkeep for the extra mampower. The upkeep is still in, but the lower cost should help them out some.

13)I added a new unit to the mod, which uses the graphics for the Slav Javelinmen. It is Turkish Spearmen, which are identical to the new stats of African Spearmen, and restricted to the Turks.

14)I switched the stats of Ottoman Sipahi and Armenian HC, essentially just switching them in the game. They use their same old graphics, will really more closely resemble this new setup. It also gets the Sipahi back to their original and more historicallly-correct stats. Thanks to A_B and Sal for reminding me of this change that I kept forgetting to make.

15)I added Armourer requirements back to the Muslim units, as they were in v1 of the mod. I think this is one reason the Muslims keep getting creamed in the game, though the Almos did quite well in my last autorun.
To help with desert fatique, I reduced their base armour value by a point or two, so that it will be the same as before and the units will now have higher defensive values.

16)Remember that Palaces are now unique, but the Royal Court line doesn't require them any more.


Well, that's "all" there is this time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I also did some of the things, like making appropriate dismounting units, that I had put on the back burner until now.
Other than creating the readmes, which will mostly use the existing info from the v1 and 2 readmes, plus the descriptions text, the only things still out are YG's unit descriptions and whatever new graphics he wants to get in this version.

I plan to leave this beta out for the next ten days or so, so that you guys can get some good info on how the new economic settings are working, and pick out any remaining bugs. I will make any economic changes that turn out to be needed, and then I will release the public version around Friday of next week.

[rory_20_uk]

Nearly there Unfortunately, due to upcoming exams Ihae only been able to follow the improvements in your mod via the org's threads, but I am looking forward to playing the Mod when my exmas are over in December (that may seem a long time away, but they are BIG exams).


Congratulations to you and all your helpers on this momentous project. I just wish that the makers of thegame tapped the abilities of people like you at an earlier stage, rather than requiring a mod to correct all the unneccecary inaccuracies in a historical game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[BDC]

Great http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif

Have the final Italien descriptions been done?

[Yelping Godzilla]

I've been out of the loop trying to get MTW to run with newer Nvidia drivers and failing horribly (along with having to completely reinstall my system).

So I haven't sent WesW any work lately and therefore I doubt the Italian descriptions are in there.

However the good news is that by the end of today I'll have pretty much finished them and sent the descriptions file to WesW.

Hoping to get everything done by the final, obviously, so I can help with other stuff like unit graphics, faction era flavour texts, initial work on the addon pack etc

Fear not, my computer is running perfectly now.

Congratulations to Wes too, for getting so close to the final version so quickly. By the way, if you want to you can put the woodsman and russian retainer graphics changes I sent you in the mod. I know they aren't quite finished, but I'd like people to get an idea of what I'm planning on doing, see if they like it.

EEUURAAH.

[Lazul]

dare i ask if sweden will be included inte the final? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Lancer6969]

Man oh man, the discriptions aren't done yet? WesW you need help on them, or do you have enough poeple doing them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif . Hmm..Mod is awesome, just could use all the discriptions, but WE all know how difficult they are to make... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

Lancer
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Yelping Godzilla]

You may dare, but you're lucky I answer rather than WesW :]

No Minor Factions In The Final

The minor factions are going to require a lot of work and will be entered in the not so distant future. I'm not sure that Sweden will ever be entered though, because the Danes are currently in need of beefing up by being granted the territory.

EEUURAAH.

[Yelping Godzilla]

Quote[/b] (Lancer6969 @ Sep. 15 2003,11:05)]Man oh man, the discriptions aren't done yet? WesW you need help on them, or do you have enough poeple doing them :joker: . Hmm..Mod is awesome, just could use all the discriptions, but WE all know how difficult they are to make... :D .

Lancer
:smoking:
My descriptions are being criticised by someone who can't spell the word.

What a blow. How ever shall I recover my tattered ego?

Sob.


Seriously though, I've asked for help with descriptions for Italian units and whatever else all along. If anyone wants to volunteer, please do so :]

EEUURAAH.

[Lancer6969]

Hey hey, I wasn't criticizing. Chill out Yelper. I was only stating that descriptions -check that spelling- are very easy to do, and I know for a fact that they havn't been implemented into the game for a long time. It was just a comment, chill out. Go to the Barbie forums if you like confrontation.

by the way...you spelled criticizing wrong...:shock:

Lancer
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

LMAO, you answered for WesW.

[BDC]

2 things, otherwise it is great:

1) The description for the Arab/Spanish malitia thing (75 in a unit, can get as alohmods) has Christian spelt with a small C.

2) The Spanish nobiltity seem to be Russian Dvors or something now.

[Yelping Godzilla]

Quote[/b] (Lancer6969 @ Sep. 15 2003,11:34)]Hey hey, I wasn't criticizing. Chill out Yelper. I was only stating that descriptions -check that spelling- are very easy to do, and I know for a fact that they havn't been implemented into the game for a long time. It was just a comment, chill out. Go to the Barbie forums if you like confrontation.

by the way...you spelled criticizing wrong...:shock:

Lancer
:smoking:

LMAO, you answered for WesW.
I didn't write criticizing. I wrote criticised. Which is correct, unless you're trying to raise some bizzare nationalist argument; the kind of stupidity requiring some smarts to begin with.

But don't let that detract from your thunder will you? I mean discounting that little fact, you had me 'beaten at my own game', right?

Just one thing I'm a little confused about. If the descriptions are easy and it's a shame the mod doesn't have them all implemented, why don't you do them?

Don't worry, that's a rhetorical question. I have no interest in your artless baiting and as such this is my last reply to you.

Barbie Forum? That would sting if it actually made any sense.

EEUURAAH.

[ShadesPanther]

We appreciate the work you have done YG Especially with the amount of new units and units that would be quite hard to find out about.


Very good improvement and also I like the way the Polish have been improved with more money and really cool units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Lancer6969]

wow, forums are moving slow. anyway, are the spanish supposed to be really hard, and annoying? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Good job, good improvments...

Lancer
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Quote from an old wise man......

[hiver77]

Wes,

Great Mod

However, I got a problem with the 3.09. I've been playing using the 3.08 and I downloaded the 3.09 just now.

After installation, when I tried to load my saved game, it said something about "camel and ehorse" being listed as "PAGAN, MUSLIM, etc... etc... etc..." and referred to cant finding an image description in the "/campmap/pieces/units/muslim/" folder.

I went back to 3.08 and it's fine. Do you have any idea why?

Also, playing the sicilians the MM hgh era campaign, I cant produce spearmen or peasants??? Yea, they're useless, but I'm basically looking for cheap units for garrisoning purpose.

Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[WesW]

I switched around a lot of units in the Units text, so old games won't run right with the new mod. Sorry I forgot to mention that earlier. You should be able to re-insert the 3.08 units text into the game and continue correctly.

I also added some Peasants to the starting units for the larger factions, so that you don't have to use Chiv. Sgt-type units for garrisoning everywhere.

Sorry I forgot to include your unit pics in the update, YG. They and any others you want to send me will definitely be in the public release.

BTW, I have expanded my initial post to include all the things that are in the update, and everyone needs to go over them, since they are broad and extensive.

[Hamburglar]

WesW:


You mentioned that "Archers are now available in High"

Does that mean that before they were Early-Only units? I just think that seems a bit weird to restrict such basic stuff at all. I'm pretty sure basic vanilla archers were in use during all periods, including Late.

[ToranagaSama]

Just want to say thanks to YG for the descriptions

Lancer, if I'm not mistaken, I do believe you can write your own descriptions and add them to the mod for your personal use, no need to wait for anyone; most especially since its so EASY

BTW, thanks again, for reminding me that 3.08 is an "update" Can you imagine the disappointment, as I tried to wean myself from my TW addiction as I gradually rebuild by PC. Only to give in and do a temporary install--that didn't work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[A_B]

Wes,

Thanks for the mention in the Post. I'm glad the Ottoman Sipahi has been changed.

I'm still on a 3.6 game. I did limit movement between the Mediteranian and the Atlantic. That change helps a lot. It keeps the AI controled naval factions from doing to many wierd things.

Another (extreme) idea i had... would it be possible to stop strategic units from using ports to move around the globe to quickly? I find it too easy to scout the map because my princesses, etc. can zip around so quickly. If they had to march around, it might make things seem more medival - with the slower communications.

Finally, a note on my even more extreme unit building limitations than you included (in 3.6). I don't think they are good to give to the AI, but they are a good handicap to the player. I am planning on making hard campaigns based on the final MedMod - which make the campaign hard for only one faction - which should be choosen by the player. This faction will loose a lot of its territorial building options, and it's late age units will cost substantially more than they normally do. These faction specific mods will be geared towards those players who need a more challenging end game.

[Lancer6969]

Quote[/b] ]Lancer, if I'm not mistaken, I do believe you can write your own descriptions and add them to the mod for your personal use, no need to wait for anyone; most especially since its so EASY


Man my lawyer isn't as good as you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Try to forget about Yelping and I's conversation, stupid and immature. Anyway, "Archers in high" does that mean that they are only in high period?

Lancer
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[A_B]

Wes,

Some thoughts on the latest Unit Stats;

I like the speed on the Mongol Heavy Cav. - makes it impossible to use any mobility against them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I THINK i like the new speed of Horse archers - medium. The Turcoman horse, Mamaluk horse archers, and Szekely are all fast, which makes them more valuable compared to regular horse archers. Making regular HA medium speed makes them much less functional, which should be OK.

I think the Byzantine Cavilry should possibly be medium speed. I used to definately think that, but i'm weighing that against the regular horse archers only being medium speed. I guess the problem i have is that the Super Heavy cav is just as fast as Byzantine cav., which just doesn't seem right.

I like the Ghulum cavilry being fast - it'll give the muslims a needed advantage. I think the Egyptians should get access to it as well.

It also seems a shame to strip the Turk and Egyptian specialty units of their bows (Ottoman Infantry, Nizari). It this done because the AI doesn't handle these sorts of units effectively?

Finally, i thing both the Ottoman Sipahi and Armenian Heavy cav. should be medium speed, to give them a chance to disengage from the heavier Wester knights. Their armor and defense rating both warrent a faster speed. The Sipahi of the port get the medium speed, even though they have superior armor.

I think I'll fire up a game later today.

[Dukezer0]

The mod is coming along nicely http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

Just a couple of things.....

1) Are the italians mean't to be able to produce both italian infantry and pavisiers in the early, they are definatly over-powering, especially if you're the HRE.

2) The auto formation "infantry first" is screwed if you've got cavalry.

and 3) I still think the mongols are to powerful, might aswell get rid of the russians from the start. But i'm going to give up on this rant because i think i'm in a minority http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif . (give the russians a go in high, i double dare you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ).

BTW yelping, you must have missed a post i done saying about pyrenese brigands. It says "north of a spain", and should be "north of spain". http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Seems a little pedantic but i'm sure you want perfection http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .
Excellent job on the description BTW. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



A little excerpt from my last campaign as the turks......[I]*ah yes mongol heavy, charge into the tight line of 10' long pikes held by my fully upgraded almughavars....... LOSING BADLY WTF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif *[I]


ban the mongols



DZ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (Dukezer0 @ Sep. 16 2003,18:43)]1) Are the italians mean't to be able to produce both italian infantry and pavisiers in the early, they are definatly over-powering, especially if you're the HRE.

and 3) I still think the mongols are to powerful, might aswell get rid of the russians from the start. But i'm going to give up on this rant because i think i'm in a minority http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif . (give the russians a go in high, i double dare you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ).
The Pavisiers are a bit reduntent with Italian Light Infantry. I think they should go to the French and Italians. I don't think the French have any other decent spearmen do they?

I think the Mongols should go from Axe to Sword. That would help a little. I don't mind them being fast, and hitting hard. But i do think the Mongols should have a harder time carving up Gothic type units.

[Dukezer0]

Quote[/b] ]I think the Mongols should go from Axe to Sword. That would help a little. I don't mind them being fast, and hitting hard. But i do think the Mongols should have a harder time carving up Gothic type units.

Yeah, i think they should still be hardcore, but just less of them.


Quote[/b] ]The Pavisiers are a bit reduntent with Italian Light Infantry. I think they should go to the French and Italians. I don't think the French have any other decent spearmen do they?


I think you're right A_B, and both of these units are still highly effective in high and even late were janissary infantry were about an equal http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif .

[Yelping Godzilla]

As far as I remember, the latest file I sent to Wes included a fix for the 'a Spain' problem. It also wrapped up a lot of the known description errors, although the historical quality might not be so high as previous work, I'm afraid.

I started messing around with a little work on the addon pack I planned and I gained quite a bit of knowledge. I finished the Norman Spear unit and other than the spear appearing out of the hands of the soldiers when you zoom close in battle, it works perfectly. I'll carry on creating other units, try and get them done in my free time.

If there isn't actually going to be much demand for the addon pack though, it may not be worth getting into too deep. We'll see :]

So little time to play medmod recently.

EEUURAAH.

[Lazul]

WHAT? you intend to give sweden to the danes? how VERY unhistorical http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

seriulsy... who cares about the danes... give denmark some more income then or lower the supportcost of the units. Sweden needs to be in... or i will cry... really... i feel sad... bhu hu http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[rory_20_uk]

I agree that Sweden in many ways has more right as an entity than denmark (certainly in the later periods). I know that Denmark and Norway were part of the same Empire, but I that Sweden was often a significan power in its own right.
Given the size of the Swedish Empire as was (based on the back of their revolutionary pike armies - was it with other troops as well?) I think that they should be included - possibly being given some provinces inthe baltic state area.
If nothing else, it would be fun to have another Northern power utilising pikes (like a better norther Switzerland).

Just a thought...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[A_B]

Just a note that splitting sea movement between the Mediteranian and the Atlantic is a HUGE help in the game. It really puts a brake on the wierd (unhistorical) things the AI was doing, such as factions spreading out way too much. What is also great about it is that strategic units can no longer move between the two sea areas from port to port. They now need to go overland, which adds just a little bit of historical perspective to the movement of emissaries, etc. I can see an emissary getting from one side of the Mediteranian to the other in a year - during the middle ages. Likewise, i can see an emmissary getting from spain to Novgorode in a year. I know this is all very abstract anyway, but it did always bug me how fast those priest, princesses, and assasins could zip around the globe.

In my current 3.9 game - as HRE - the Danes have taken most of england, and are now carving up france with the Almohads. Egypt is also doing well.

[ShadesPanther]

In mine Its late and im King of Poland but the Danes have all of the baltic states including Novgorod (except Lithuania as its mine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )
I have pushed back the GH but now have problems

[Lazul]

To be an historical freak i can say that the Swedes accualy did beat the danish twice some time around 1200.

Why not do it like this.

Give some of the eastern provinces to the danes and give sweden to sweden.
And when it comes to units... like the danes sweden didnt have a knight army like the frankish kingdoms but the danes developed it later on and even later the swedes did. The swedes depended alot on foot soldier with axes or swords, a bit like viking warfare.

If im not wrong the swedes had alot of good archers to.
According to a book i read, wich is about the a templar knight from sweden the swedes accualy used Longbows against the danes, a bit like agincurt.
but im not sure about this tho.

So... if you dont want to feel my gothic wrath include the swedes..... please http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Yelping Godzilla]

Being something of a longbow geek, I can tell you without question that the Swedish longbows, or rather the Swedish Longbowmen, weren't like the English equivalents.

They used a Longbow (their original version, as far as I know) but didn't train and fight the way the English archers did. So they'd get composite bows, not longbows, in the mod.

Up to Wes as to whether they get in or not. If they do, I wouldn't mind doing them some unique units in my addon pack.

Happier? :P

EEUURAAH.

[Lazul]

much happier... btw i didnt try to say that swedish longbowmen could even dream of being like english ones.
if oyu are to make uniqe units... here are some suggestions.

*Swedisg longbowmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
*Svean Axemen, a bit like vikings
*Some kind of knight but not as good as frankish ones, and lesser armoured.

The rest could be like the danish units...

(and the majority of the ppl in sweden should be pagan in the beginning)

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I might use those ideas Lazul for Swedes in my mod. Swedish Axemen?.....I like the sound of that With or without shields? Maybe just huge axes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Yelping Godzilla]

Hmm. Well whether or not Sweden get in the medmod, I'm going to stick Swedish Longbows on the addon list. In fact, I think I'll make them the next unit I do, since I've yet to create a dedicated ranged unit.

EEUURAAH.

[Lazul]

hey blind dude http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif make it "Svean axemen"... more historical name.

oh and make "Bazooka Camel Warriors of the North"... sweeeet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WesW]

We'll have to see how the Danes do when deciding whether they need the third province or not. You could go into the startpos text(s) and outcomment the line that gives the Danes ownership of Sweden, in the SetRegionOwner section, and see how they fare with Sweden as a Rebel again.
I would rather that Sweden have its independence, too, but better a little historical inaccuracy than one, or two, factions that just sit around all game because they don't have the income to ever get started. The income will be even more of a problem in the later eras, when everything costs more, and there are no un-claimed provinces nearby to expand into.

I have gone over the Mongols, and made some minor changes. I removed the AP ability of the Heavy Cav, which makes sense. This makes them equal to the High-era Muslim hvy cav units (AHC and Khwar). The Horse Archers are Byz Cav with +1 valour, and the Warriors are the equivalent of Janissary Bowmen.
Overall, these units are not statistically overpowering, it's just like A_B said that there are so many of them, which is something I don't have any control over.

I tried a High-era game as the Poles a few days ago, and it was no use. The Horde brought so many men to the border that there was no way to defend against them, unless you could find a chokepoint somehow. And they "do" have the Viking's raider ability to plunder provinces without taking the castle. This was very bad when trying to defend Poland.
If you tried it as the Hungarians, and got them to send everything at Moldavia, you might be able to defend on high ground with everything you could muster and beat them back. Other than that, I think it's foolhardy to try being any faction east of the Germans. Which is pretty much historically accurate, btw.

I also peaked into the Horde's economics while in god mode. I don't think the reductions to their unit upkeep are going to have much of an effect, unless you play as a late game. When they appear in 1232, they start with a huge cash reserve, over 70k in my game, but have probably 15k per turn in expenses even with the cost reductions.
This means that they have to make Pagan Shrines and such in the first few turns after they arrive, since soon they will be in the hole, and will probably never get out. Even when their units are depleted to the point where they could turn a profit, I think they will be so far in the hole by then they will never get out of debt.

I went through and corrected the Muslim cavalry. The Porte and Khwar. are now slow, the same as knights, due to their heavy armour. The Sipahi and Khwar are medium speed, the Khwar due to their Master Breeder requirement, and the rest I left alone.

I reason I put the Pavisier (Chiv Sgts) in Early, along with the Ital Lt Inf, was to give a cheaper garrison unit to the Italians. The Lt Inf is quite expensive in early. I agree that it needs to be available in all eras, though, in order to be a cheaper garrison unit in Late.
Remember that the Italians use their spear units as general attack units, like other factions use sword units.

A_B, others, if you want a really hard challenge, I don't think you need to set up special scenarios. Just try the game as one of the new, minor factions when the second public release comes out. You can play as single-province factions like the Scots or Irish, or multiple-province factions like the Teutonic Order or Cumans. Starting an Early game as the Cumans, and trying to withstand the Horde's arrival should be a challenge for anyone.

[Lazul]

Well why not do it like this. Let the danes - as they are a bigger faction then the swedes - have Denmark and Norway and one other province, prussia or something as they went crusading there.
And let sweden be a minor faction with only sweden, maybe finland if you so like it as sweden crusaded a bit there.
In my opinion; the more faction the more fun

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (WesW @ Sep. 19 2003,12:16)]We'll have to see how the Danes do when deciding whether they need the third province or not.
In my current game - as HRE; early, expert, 3.9 (modded WesW's 3.9 by starting the HRE with only 100 Florin and half the units).

It is now 1180AD. The Danish are the most powerful faction by far. They control Scadinavia, most of British Isles, much of russia, france and Spain. i don't think they are too powerful though. France was big for awhile, but as they fell, the Danes were there to fill in the void (nature abhores a vacuum).

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (WesW @ Sep. 19 2003,12:16)]I removed the AP ability of the Heavy Cav,The Horse Archers are Byz Cav with +1 valour, and the Warriors are the equivalent of Janissary Bowmen.

I think it's foolhardy to try being any faction east of the Germans. Which is pretty much historically accurate, btw.

I also peaked into the Horde's economics while in god mode. I don't think the reductions to their unit upkeep are going to have much of an effect, unless you play as a late game.
The only thing i DON'T like about the Horde is knowing exactly when they come in. When i first got the game, i thought their intro turn was randomized. At around 1215, i started to get gripped every time i hit the END button.

I do like the GH new stats. i do think the GH effects things pretty historically. I've never seen them take all of europe before.

Regarding their economics; Wes is right, they'll never get very far on thier initial invasion. They'll stagnate. However, i've found that they usually degenerate into rebels at some point, and when they Respawn, their economy has a chance to be OK, with their really low unit cost/upkeep.

The only problem is that bribing them is too cheap once they become rebels - so this shouldn't be allowed in HardCore rules.

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (WesW @ Sep. 19 2003,12:16)]A_B, others, if you want a really hard challenge, I don't think you need to set up special scenarios. Just try the game as one of the new, minor factions when the second public release comes out.
Well, i'm playing as HRE (3.9) for the first time ever, and I'm getting my a** kicked Does the HRE always have so many Civil Wars? Or is it the fact that i'm using AutoTax (normally i don't use it). I usually play as Byzantines, Turks, or Hungarians, and i almost never get a civil war.

On the plus side, i'm experiencing Crusading for the first time ever. I didn't know you got to control the crusades movement and battles until yesterday. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Sir Robin]

Last I knew Auto-Tax is bad. It just messes with loyalty too much.

Excellent update Wes, thank you for all the work.

[Hagbard la Suede]

Hehe yeah lazul http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Taken from Jan Guillous book about Arn De Gothia,when they are about to fight the danes.

"The Sveainfantry were impetious to run to the battlefield and die as fast as possible."
or
"The Svean's didnt need a signal,they were already running towards the danish,while shouting warcries and waving their axes."

Include the swedes,we ruled anyhow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif(until we got the french king.)

[Hagbard la Suede]

And yes,the swedish did do crusades at that time.
To finland and the baltic countries.Livonia for example(called livland).

[rory_20_uk]

Is there no way of making the Russian provinces worth more to help the dear ol' Mongols out? (Mmore rescourses / farmland / money)? I realise that the great problem with having (for example) the kazar a font of riches is that it would be true for all races. It is a shame that the mongols can not somehow gain income from their lands across the steppes - or is this possible? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Razor1952]

Rory, you can easily edit the startpos files to change the farming income for those provinces. You can also add mines and trade goods

[WesW]

I have gone into the Early text, and added the Swedes as a new faction, using the Russian names, units and homeland. I expanded the Homeland to include Sweden. The Swedes have Finland as well. I'll be interested to see how this plays out.

I also added another new unit to the game, giving the Italian Heavy Infantry their own textures and pics. I gave the Early Royal Foot Knights, who had been the ItalianHI, to the Danes as a Chiv Sgt-type spear unit in High and Late. This makes the Italian unit look much better, while the Danes get the spear unit that they needed to fend off cavalry.
I called the Danish unit Viking Spearmen for the moment, but I feel pretty sure some of you know of a better one.

YG, I have pasted in the entries needed in the Descriptions text. I have changed the IHI segment a little, since I think this is a unit that could dominate a battlefield.

["EarlyRoyalFootKnights_desc"]
{Viking Shieldmen....}

["ItalianHeavyInfantry_desc"]
{"These heavy infantry represent the pinnacle of Italian martial expertise, combining gothic styled platemail, polearms and an ordered formation to produce a highly effective unit. They are professional soldiers, some brought up from the ranks of the militia, some hired as standing mercenaries. Armed with both spears and hook-halberds, in units halfway in size between traditional spear and halbard types, they are perhaps the most powerful and versatile unit in the entire Medieval age."}

I gave the Varangian Guards back to the Byz, so they now have both types back, just as in the vanilla game. The Chiv MAA go to the Italians in return as the Carracio Guard. The non-Early VG's are simply Early VG's with +1 valour, and the Carracios are simply CMAA, available in both High and Late.
I kept the Carracios as the High-era BG unit, while the IHI are now the Late-era BG. I like this much better, since it makes the Italian BG units all infantry.

Did I mention that I added an African Spearmen-type unit to the game, using the Slav Javelinmen textures and pics? It is for the Turks only, since they don't have anything between generic Spearmen and Saracen Inf now that Muwahid Foot are Jihad-only.
I called them Turkish Spearmen, but if any of you know of a better name, just say so and I'll put it in.

I also gave the Nizari and Ottoman Inf back their bows, keeping their melee stats the same. We'll have to see how the AI handles them.

Finally, YG and I talked and decided to tweak the Russian Retainers and Cossacks some. The Retainers gain +1 valour over Boyars to go with their X-bows, plus excellent speed and a light lance instead of a shield. This gives the Russians the native lance unit that they needed while retaining their x-bows.
I gave the Cossacks +3 attack versus cavalry units, to simulate the chekan hammers they used in addition to swords. This adds them to the Hung Nobles, Diensluten and Kns of Dobryzn as anti-cav cavalry units, which is a unit type not found in the regular game.
Credit YG with coming up with this idea, which I would put in the moment of inspiration category.

In other work, I spent all of last evening and night working on graphics. I switched some of the info pics around so that they match better. Most of the time I spent, however, was trying to get the damn spears to appear in the hands of the cav units when they are standing. I fixed part of this months ago, but it turned out that the fix only worked for units of one texture type.
I finally got the spear looking right in 3 of the 4 angles, and I think I got it right for the fourth, but this variation is only in some units, mostly the new VI units. Some of the swords and other stuff still are misplaced, but I just don't care to get into any more of this. You'd have thought that someone at CA would have taken a little time to make sure their units didn't look stupid, with weapons 2 or 3 feet away from their hands. Some of the infantry spears were messed up as well, but this was relatively easy to fix.

So, to sum up, the unit lineup continues to be improved, and I am in the final stages of shaping up the mod for release. One of the other things I did last night was go through the mod files and arrange everything so that not a single texture or pic of a previously existing unit is altered by the mod. This required placing some original units' pics in the mod in order to erase earlier changes which had altered some original files.
I also believe that I can place all the altered unit names and descriptions in the changes.txt once we get the final version of everything made.

All of this means that you should be able to go from the vanilla game to the mod, and back, by only changing out the projectile and changes texts, which is pretty damn incredible for a mod of this size, if I do say so.

There is one final topic that I guess would be appropriate to bring up at this time, with the public release imminent.
In my previous mod work, it was something I did as a hobby and a stress release while I was in school. Well, due to health problems, I had to drop out of school in May of last year, and I won't be going back until this coming January. If I were still in school, or able to hold down a regular job, I obviously wouldn't have had the kind of free time that I have devoted to the mod these last couple of months especially. I figure that I have spent about 20hrs-a-week on the mod since the start of the year, not that I'm complaining.
Well, I mentioned to my Mom the other day that some of you had broached the question of sending a "gratuity", I guess you could say, in appreciation of all the work which went into the mod, and she said that she felt it was completely appropriate to accept it, given the situation. I guess you could look at it like a guy who likes woodworking, and occasionally puts up some of the stuff he makes for sale to the public.
So, I wanted to run it by you guys to see how you felt about it, and if you feel that it would be appropriate, I would put a little paragraph at the end of the readme listing my home address and PayPal account number for anyone who wanted use that method to show how much they enjoyed the mod.

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (WesW @ Sep. 20 2003,21:27)]So, I wanted to run it by you guys to see how you felt about it, and if you feel that it would be appropriate, I would put a little paragraph at the end of the readme listing my home address and PayPal account number for anyone who wanted use that method to show how much they enjoyed the mod.
I think it is OK, as long as you're not pushy (and i'm sure you won't be). Webloggers have paypall, and i never found it a problem. My guess is you'll get enough to buy RTW, and a few lunches. But better than nothing, eh?

As far as names for the new Turkish Unit, I'd call them Turkoman Foot, and rename the current TurcomanFoot to Turkoman Tribesmen or Irregulars. Give the spearmen a bit better valor. I'd also give the tribesmen/irregulars the fast foot speed, better charge/attack and lower armor/defense. I always found their attack ratings totally at odds with thier picture. They look something fierce. Also, i find thier heavy armor (for bowman) at odds with thier high speed. So, i think the turkman archers should have a more tribesman type feel, where'as the Ottoman Infantry should be their more disciplined and expensive replacements.

[Lazul]

Hey WesW im very happy that you added sweden thank you... but i have to wonder; Russian namne? and units? dont mean to be anoying here but why not make it Danish namnes and Danish units as they historicly had more in common.

and thanx for a great mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Hagbard la Suede]

I noticed something on the mod,
there are many units with strange names and appearances.
For example,The Italian Sailors who look like the pictish crossbowmen.

Is this a bug,or is it supposed to be that way?

[ShadesPanther]

Its just that wes doesn't have time to replace all the unit pictures atm but when it is released it will have proper pictures and such

[BDC]

It's good, except I can't even survive on normal now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Also, the Byzantines can't build ANYTHING other than Kataphractoi in Early, it means that you end up with armies of spearmen and archers vs everyone else for most of the early period until you have build enough for Byz Infantry.

Also, maybe reduce the building times by a year for most the lower level buildings? 4 years for a Town Watch which doesn't even do anything on its own seems a bit much...

[A_B]

Turkish ;
Cav;i think their low armor rating should give them a medium speed (Sipahi and Armenian Heavy).
Inf; see my other note above.

Russian Cav.
I like the idea behind the anti-cav cav units. I think this is perfect for the Cossacks. however, i think the Cossacks should be the Fast unit, not the RussianDvors. Giving the Dvors a medium speed, super high armor, and axes make them Knight killers. The Cossacks, as an auxillery to the royal unit (and fitting their image as ughneck steppe horsemen) could be the very fast Knight killers, albeit not as heavily armored or with as high of morale

Khazar Royal & Avar Noble;
Since Russia now has a native lance in the Russian Retainers, i think these two semibarbaric heavy cav. don't need to fill that need for russia. I think they should get less armor, less morale, and available in fewer provinces, but also be much, much cheaper - a cheap auxillery (mercinary) heavy cav but limited to one or two provinces.

I really love the difference in the factions now; Italians, Germans, French all have a totally different feel now. The english and spanish did before, but are even better now. Russians and Byz. are also awesome. I think the Muslims still need some work though, especially the Almos and Turks.

[A_B]

Whoo-hoo, i think the Danes might be a bit overpowered now. I started a game as the Russians when my HRE game got kinda boring. In both those campaigns, the Danish became the largest faction, taking over most of England, and then France. Perhaps it is the faction personality - too aggressive.

Also, it seems like the economy is too hot. This may be all the tradegood, and the fact that all the provices have been equalized to one degree or another. Regardless, i think the florins are running too freely.

[Dukezer0]

Hi ya wes and all.

First of all, i'd like to thank A_B for the ingenius idea to take out the gulf of cadiz, thus seperating the the seas in to two parts. Before, one faction was dominating, but now, its a lot more even http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .


Quote[/b] ]I tried a High-era game as the Poles a few days ago, and it was no use. The Horde brought so many men to the border that there was no way to defend against them, unless you could find a chokepoint somehow.

The key there is high-era. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I have a campaign with the poles at the mo (which rock IMO) and found them to be the perfect faction to take them out. They only appeared with 11 banners tho, (not the usual 16 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif ).

I don't think any faction can take out the mongols in high (believe me i've tried;)), there just isn't enough time to build up, the only way is late http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif (don't know, haven't tried) or early IMO.

As for the sweden/danes thing, the danes are kicking arse in my campaign too, owning about a 3rd of the map http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif . (makes a nice change http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif )

It seems to me that giving the danes sweden makes them a powerful faction, but not giving them sweden makes them how they usually are....poo.
Perhaps upping the farm/trade goods of denmark/norway and/or giving them livonia or something (someone already suggested it but it wasn't trademarked http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif )


One more thing Wes, i hate to repeat myself but could you give me some info on the glitch with the auto formation "infantry first". I have posted before, but you obviously missed it, you being so busy and all.....(that sound sarcastic but its not http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )


Well, i'm now off to teach these rampaging vikings a lesson in polish warfare http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .


A quick sypnosis of the demise of the mongols........ Polish militia vs mongol heavy cavalry + czeladz bowmen vs mongol horse archers + polish retainers vs mongol warriors + silesian spearmen vs chinese infantry + a sprinkling of drobzyn knights = HIGH TAIL YOUR ARSE OUTA HERE GOLDEN BOY http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[A_B]

A note on Crusades. With the factions having Chapter House right from the Start, I've noticed several factions immediately launching Crusades. I think this puts things out of whack. It can weaken a faction - i've noticed several of the crusading factions fall appart very quickly (HRE, English, French), whereas the non-crusading are doing better (Danes, Poles).

Also, on my new game as the Novgorods (early), i ended up with English, HRE, and Italian crusades on my border within 10 years of the start. It certainly put a damper on my expansion. I'm sure the AI did that because the provinces were rebel held. Adding minor factions to fill up all the provinces may make the Crusades less likely.

[WesW]

Yeah, I can see where the Chapterhouses could be a problem right off the start. You could get other opinions on this, though, since the real Crusades started about ten years or so after the start of the early period.

Let me answer Duke's question while I am thinking about it. Sorry for forgetting it in the past. I always seemed to remember right after I submitted the post.
I assume you are talking about the Infantry Charge setting? I tried this once last night, and it seemed to work correctly. I haven't messed with it for the mod or anything.
The only one I tinkered with is the Line of Battle, the first one on the list, and I chose it because I couldn't see anyone ever using it. I have tried to set it up the way I usually place my armies, with mixed results. I keep thinking of going back into it once I get everything else done, which obviously means I haven't got back to it yet. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

A_B mentioned to me in an email about restricting X-bows and Arbs to Christian factions. How about doing that coupled with enabling Mamluk, now Muslim, Handgunners in High as well as Late? I could even add a separate building only available in the Muslim Homelands. (It's easy to add buildings compared to units.)

As for income, several people have noted that in their reports. Trade specifically and income in general are the hardest things to balance in the game. And this is because of the way slight increases per turn grow to large amounts over time (compound interest).
I will lower the income from the "coastal" goods by five everywhere, and see what this does. (I restricted the most valuable goods to inland provinces for this beta.) Other than that, I don't want to do anything else. I would rather the AIs have a little more than they can spend than go back to the original game where they all were poverty-stricken by turn 10.

Btw, the Italians are going to be split into two factions for the second release, so I don't mind much if they are a little too rich right now.
One of the things I wanted the homelands concept to do was restrict your unit production no matter how much money you had, so I don't think that having rich factions matters as much as it would if there were no homeland restrictions.

I'll see about adding the "Swedes" to all three eras. I have already done as A_B, I think, suggested, and bumped up the Danes a little economically by giving them a couple extra Longboats to start with. The reason I used the Russian faction data is because all I did was enable the Russians in the Early age, and give them Sweden and Finland.
What I may do is simply turn the Novgorods into the Swedes the same way I turned them into the Kievans for the first version of the mod. Then have the Russians in all three eras. I could then give the Swedes access to the Danish units and homeland.
I plan on the new Teutonic Order faction to have Livonia, Prussia and maybe Pomerania in both the high and late eras when the final version of the mod comes in sometime in the future, thus I don't want the Danes to have any of those provinces in the beta, when we are balancing things. Pomerania is also the Poles' best chance to gain a port, so I would like to leave it Rebel until the Late era when the Poles get Lithuania. We'll see how it goes.

I want to leave the Steppe cavalry units alone right now. The way I see it, they are there if you want them, and have the required buildings, which I see as the main obstacle to getting them. Remember that the new Cuman faction will have to rely on them exclusively.

For the Russians, I had wondered about it when YG wrote up their description as heavily armoured and not fast, but he knows more about unit specifics than I do. He also suggested that more of the Russian units use the heavily-armoured horse in their textures. I didn't think I changed the Boyars, though. I described the Dvors as Gothic Kns because of their AP ability, but remember that they have 2 less armour and defense points than Goth's, so they are really medium for heavy cav.

BDC, the problem I think you are having with the Byz is that none of their provinces start out with hardly any buildings, other than Constan, and this was the way CA designed them. I've played as the Byz in Early with the current settings, and I made it fine.
Also Town Watches raise loyalty by 10 pts, which I often find crucial.

I'll check back in here each day this week, and continue taking and implementing suggestions, but I think I still need to have the next update be the public release, rather than another beta. Work on the mod will keep right on as always after the release, so if things aren't perfect it is not a huge deal. With a game this rich and expansive, you can keep tweaking and adjusting forever, so if you are ever going to put out an official release you just have to set a date and stick with it no matter what, baring some major bug or something.

[Greeny]

Quote[/b] (WesW @ Sep. 23 2003,02:08)]Also Town Watches raise loyalty by 10 pts, which I often find crucial.
I think it would be a good idea to put things like this in the Building descriptions, since I for one didn't know they did that. Do other building have similar effects? (watch towers/ border forts?)

[BDC]

I think the Byz should at least be able to train Byz Infantry SOMEWHERE though...

Also as you mentioned the Italiens are currently unstoppable.

[Greeny]

On the issue of the Mongols' debt problems.

In my current game, with 3.07, High, Byzantines. The horde struck hard initially, taking Russia down to 2/3 provinces and pushing me all the way to Constantinople. Here I managed to counter attack. About this time they seemed to stagnate, not making any attacks anywhere. I slowly pushed them back all the way to Georgia. Where I stopped and the Horde's borders were static for decades. But just now they made attacks (2 or 3 stacks big) on Russia and Poland taking a province each off of them. I noticed many of the Mongol units now had silver level armour so they must have had the cash to build new units, also quite a few Horde provinces had pagan shrines in them.

I think they attacked at the start, with the huge number of troops they had, spread themselves out until they didn't have the troops to attack anymore and went into debt for quite a while but managed in time to get back into the black, and so able to expand again. (This could due to the fact that in my game I must have killed 10s of thousands of Mongols, so that their net support costs were low enough to claw back out of debt.)

[Dukezer0]

Quote[/b] ]Let me answer Duke's question while I am thinking about it. Sorry for forgetting it in the past. I always seemed to remember right after I submitted the post.
I assume you are talking about the Infantry Charge setting? I tried this once last night, and it seemed to work correctly. I haven't messed with it for the mod or anything.


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif . I haven't changed a thing, and its been there right from the start. Its only glitched if you have cavalry in the formation, try that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

Anyway, a few things about the polish Wes.

1) The polish need a baronial court for thr rycerzi, but cannot build one.

2) Knights of dobryzn look like knights templar on the camp map, but look like gendarmes on the battle map.

3) Is a question, the polish royal units are
early = czeladz lancers
high = polish retainers
Late = czeladz lancers
Is this how its meant to be?, coz you cannot build retainers in late.

4) There are two trainable types of czeladz lancers, both are the same but are not compatable.

5) I think serpentine crews are built in 1 turn, but the description says 2.

BTW, nice touch adding "may charge without orders" to szekely.

Laters, DZ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Hamburglar]

Should the English bodyguard unit really be Longbowmen?

I know that they were quite a famous troop type, but seriously...

Having the KING of England walking around on foot with a silly little jerkin and a bow and arrow seems kind of weird.

Nobility should always be cavalry - wasn't that kind of the point? They only fought on foot when they had to, and even when they did, they fought as footknights. Seems kind of odd, especially since your King should be at the forefront of the army.

[ShadesPanther]

I think in high the polish get the knights of Dsomething

[Dukezer0]

Quote[/b] ]Nobility should always be cavalry - wasn't that kind of the point? They only fought on foot when they had to, and even when they did, they fought as footknights. Seems kind of odd, especially since your King should be at the forefront of the army.

To my knowledge, one of Wes' aims was to have each faction having a unique bodyguard unit, which IMO he has achieved.
Though i can see your point, there are so many other factions that have a cavalry unit as the bodyguard, its nice to have a change.
Besides, there is no reason why the king cannot head the army, especially welsh and english longbowmen, they rock in melee aswell as missile fire http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

*note to self, do not let out that you never put your king in battle or the org might think you're a pussy* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif

[Hagbard la Suede]

I noticed playing The Vikings,the picts now have Italian sailors http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I think you should make new units instead of replacing.

Its a great mod,dont get me wrong

[ShadesPanther]

Well the problem is that there are limited amounts of bifs and units so if you want a lot of units quite a few units in viking will get overwritten http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Dukezer0]

Quote[/b] ]Well the problem is that there are limited amounts of bifs and units so if you want a lot of units quite a few units in viking will get overwritten

Speaking of which, where is the beserker bif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif .

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (ShadesPanther @ Sep. 24 2003,13:24)]Well the problem is that there are limited amounts of bifs and units so if you want a lot of units quite a few units in viking will get overwritten http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
what is the limit on Bifs and units? I never knew there was one.

[WesW]

Has interest in the mod waned, or is everyone waiting for the public release?

I came down with a bad headache Friday afternoon, and I am still under the weather 36 hrs. later.
I have been working on the mod, getting more kinks out and trying to get the last known balancing issues fixed, as well as correcting the bugs I continued to come across.

I went through all the factions Thursday mentally, trying to remember anything that had bugged me about them and that hadn't been fixed. I remembered the Spanish militia units, and their huscarle-type look. I opened up their unit info bifs, and saw that they definitely needed to be changed. (I made a dozen or more additional changes to bifs to try and get things looking right.) Well, over the course of about 90 min. I worked out in my head a complicated switch that not only fixed this problem in a way that I think everyone will be happy with, but I also improved the Janissary units and gave the French a spear unit that they needed.

To start with, I turned the Sp. militia sgts into plain Militia Sgts, with the same pics, stats and so-forth.
Next, I used the Janissary Archers as the Sp. Militia, with the same stats as Ottoman Inf., including bows.

I used the Janissary Infantry as the new Jan Archers, with their original pics, and the old Archers' stats.
I used the Tercio Pikemen as the new Jan. Infantry. I don't know if the Turks ever developed pikes or not, but this unit looks more like a Muslim unit than the old unit (Tercios were Swiss Pikes), and we can always shorten the pike to a spear if it's an issue.
I drafted the Almughavars to the the Spanish/Aragonese pike unit, which is better historically, anyway. This means there will be no pike unit available as a merc to the Muslims or pagans, but I don't think that will be a problem.
I am changing the Swiss Merc Pikes to be available to any Catholic faction anywhere there is an Inn. as a buildable merc.
I gave the old Sp. Militia unit, which was a spear-weilding huscarle, to the Russians, and sent the Feudal Sgts, which had been the Kop'ya Spearmen, to the French as simply Feudal Sgts.
The French needed this unit because I realized in my last game that the French had no access to the Basque and Pyrenees units if they lost Toulouse. And having the Basque and Pyrenees Brigands available in southern France didn't make much sense anyway. So I was also able to restrict these two units to the Spanish and Aragonese factions, and their homeland to northern Spain.

Finally, I named the Spanish infantry after provinces not shown on the strategic map, to represent the small kingdoms that fought the Muslims and were eventually united under Castile.

I also realized that the generic buildable mercs would not be a viable choice to hire as a regular merc due to their initial 50% price increase. This meant that you would be paying 3x their usual price and upkeep if you got them the normal way. So, I set their price back to normal, but made them take three turns to build. I think this will accomplish the goal of making them something you only get if you *really* want them, and you will not be able to get very many of them even if you do.
I left the faction-restricted mercs alone.

I also decided to restrict regional units like Steppe Cav to those factions which border its provinces. Having these units available to anyone gives a faction another homeland, in effect. It also helps keep the Horde restricted to its Mongol units.

I took A_B's advice and named the new Turkish spear unit Turcoman Foot, and called the old Foot Turkish Archers.

I still have most of the work on the startpos texts yet to do, and I have not even started on the readmes, so it will be a day or two until the mod is ready to release. I would have gotten it out by Sunday if not for the headache, but that can't be helped.

I *did* decide to replace Chapter Houses with Churches in the early campaign startpos. I hope this will lead most Crusader AIs to build their Chapter Houses in these same provinces, and not their capitals.

I haven't heard from YG in a week or so, so I will try and get in touch with him and find out about the last unit descriptions.

[Old Bald Guy]

My interest hasn't waned. I've been playing the heck out of it, and enjoying it throroughly. The French definitely needed a spear unit. I've been playing my first game as the French and wondered where the hell the spearmen were. Makes it pretty tough, until you get into Spain.

Looking forward to the release. Thanks, again, for all the hard work.

[rory_20_uk]

Wained? I've yet to have time to play it, so it's like looking at a growin menu from here Keep up the good work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Dukezer0]

Wes, bump to my post about the polish.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Yelping Godzilla]

Due to circumstances beyond my control, I currently have extremely limited access to a computer.

The old description work is pretty much all done (I think I sent it to WesW) and I would get right on the new changes, but for the fact I've no keyboard to type with or files to work with :]

The date all this gets sorted out is the 8th October. Until then, consder me basically out of action. I apologise, but it was unavoidable and unfortunately could not be predicted.

It&#39;s probably pissing me off more than any of you though >_<

Keep on Medmodding.

EEUURAAH.

[L`zard]

NP,YG...U done good, eh?

Wes;

Myself, been playing the mod more than talking about it, but there can be no doubt about community interest. Check out the other mtw forums, if theres any doubt.

BTW, of course we want to see the &#39;public release&#39;.

L`zard

PS: is 34ooo GA advanced build troops &#39;normal&#39;? One could spend a lot of time/money/troops trying to keep factions like the Huns/Pols/Byz active just so that their faction-AI
might make a contribution towards preventing the demise of &#39;western civilization&#39;; http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

PPS:Having had the GA eat my lunch for me, I can see why the above factions are for advanced players, lol

[Hamburglar]

Quote[/b] (WesW @ Sep. 28 2003,03:09)]I also decided to restrict regional units like Steppe Cav to those factions which border its provinces. Having these units available to anyone gives a faction another homeland, in effect. It also helps keep the Horde restricted to its Mongol units.
I think the Mongols should be able to build Steppe Cavalry. I&#39;m taking a Middle Ages Russian History course in university and it seems quite emphasized that the Mongols used many of the nomadic horsemen and Tatars that inhabited the Eastern portion of the MTW map.

[A_B]

Wes, Can you make the latest changes available? I&#39;d like to try it.

[BDC]

You should let everyone build regular steppe cavalry. There is no point taking the steppes without them.

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (BDC @ Sep. 30 2003,15:01)]You should let everyone build regular steppe cavalry. There is no point taking the steppes without them.
I disagree. one of the things that i thought was a problem before the latest medmod is that i, as the Almohads for instance, can take over Kiev and immediately start making Steppe Cav. - or Almohad Urban Milita for that matter.

One has to assume that factions near the steppes would have the political accumen/local contacts/etc. to work with the local warlords. Nations from far away wouldn&#39;t be able to do that effectivley - or at least the historcial evidence of that is not very evident.

I like the solution of allowing the hiring of units such as Alen Mercenary Cavilry, but at a premium.

[Lancer6969]

Quote[/b] ]Due to circumstances beyond my control, I currently have extremely limited access to a computer.

The old description work is pretty much all done (I think I sent it to WesW) and I would get right on the new changes, but for the fact I&#39;ve no keyboard to type with or files to work with :]

The date all this gets sorted out is the 8th October. Until then, consder me basically out of action. I apologise, but it was unavoidable and unfortunately could not be predicted.

It&#39;s probably pissing me off more than any of you though >_<

Keep on Medmodding.

EEUURAAH.



Sorry but I have to......

Then how are you typing this? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Lord of the Isles]

Wes, the mod is great. I suspect the reason for the lack of feedback is that we&#39;re all enjoying playing it so much there&#39;s no time to take notes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

I really will try harder. For now, my game as English, Early, Hard brings up:

1. No bonus for longbowmen in Wessex? Of course, I&#39;m only at 1290 now and maybe English Longbowmen only appear in Late and are a different unit from Longbowmen. If so, ignore this.

2. Danes seem overpowered in my game too. I&#39;ve managed to almost destroy them by a) waiting till High when I get some better troops b) waiting till they were at war with 2 other factions then c) building up my navy and making a sneak attack on theirs. On land I barely held my own against them - Huscarles are *tough* mothers - but once I&#39;d destroyed their navy their far flung and disconnected empire began to fold from rebellions and having 3 enemies. A player can manage that but other AI factions will have a tough time against the Danes I suspect.

3. I think Dukezero&#39;s question was about the auto-formation facility: during a battle, select all units, draw them out in a line and then try the numbers 1-9 (or is it 1-0?) while the mouse button is still down. The formations that get shadow-drawn don&#39;t seem right (sorry, will try to give more detail soon).

4. A few text things that I&#39;ve forgotten. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[BDC]

I still think all builing and ship production times should be reduced by one... But maybe that&#39;s just me having no patience. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Cid]

Been away from the game and these forums for quite a while due to rotten economy, traveling etc.

Wes, this mod looks fantastic I&#39;m a little reluctant to try the full mod now as I can&#39;t find the #&#036;@^&*% installation disc and won&#39;t be able to reinstall if something goes wrong (which with me & computers approaches metaphysical certainty). I&#39;d like to get used to the game again too.

I checked out you&#39;re website (pretty nifty) and was wondering if the "Muslim Hordes" mod will work with VI or whether it&#39;s only compatible with unexpanded MTW. If so I think I&#39;d like to try that first- If not the whole shebang.

Seems like you should be on everyone&#39;s favorite guy list around here.

Thanks

[Hobot]

Hey Wes, first of all thanks for all your hard work on your mods, I have played more MTW with your mods than without, in fact you saved me from abandoning this game, since the regular version is way too easy...kudos.

In terms of ideas and observations, i&#39;ve got a few now that I&#39;ve played this latest mod a good amount. Muslims now have princesses...and the one time i played as the Almos I had no princes being born, so I died out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif What&#39;s with the Russian Dvors being the Spanish Royals in Early? And I just started a game in Late as Russians and it says you need a Baronial Estate for Dvors...there is no such building to my knowledge. It&#39;s Royal Court, then Royal Estate then Baronial Court...so I dunno yet if that&#39;s a typo or if you really can&#39;t build dvors. The Danes are way overpowered as everyone else has noted, they are a powerhouse in every campaign I&#39;ve played so far, no matter what age. Personally I think that Huscarls, for Danes and anyone else who gets them should be a 2 turn unit, like Varangians or anyone else&#39;s hardcore troops. Huscarl types are absurdly powerful...as good as the best infantry in the game availabe in Late, normal speed though, and available fairly easily in the tech tree at 1 turn...the Danes constantly flood with them, and you really shouldn&#39;t be flooding with your royals unit. So it&#39;s either make them more expensive or 2 turns to build IMHO.

I really like the whole bodyguard thing and diversification of units that is in this mod though...makes replaying campaigns infinitely more fun when you know that the sides are not at all clones of each other. The homelands idea for production is great, I see that AI making actually honest to god good armies now. As far as the regional troops go...well in terms of Steppe Cav, my one game as the Byz, taking Khazar and Kiev made me absurdly more powerful as i started pumping the heavy steppe cav and avar nobles out...these being essentially as good as the best byz cav units (or close to it), allowing me to focus on other units at home, but then again I didn&#39;t think it was bad, as the Byz unit selection in Late is meager until you climb all the way up the tech tree. Also with the Byz I was able to build Bulgarian Brigands in eastern euro provinces but not in Bulgaria itself...that was a bit wierd http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif As far as the Brigands go, they are possibly overpowered? One unit slaughtered a charging group of the byz equivalent of Gothic knights...we had similar upgrades and I a better general. Bulgars should not be able to mow down a 2 turn heavy cav unit that easy IMHO.

As far as general obsevrations on Faction strength go: The Danes are overpowered; most campaigns the Spanish are a power; the Italians never die but never grow huge...always a mid range power; the minor faction types always die; out of the Muslims I think there is good balance, as their empires work out different every game; the Byz generally get reduced to Crete and/or Rhodes with the occasional powerful game; the Russians always get owned by the Mongs or the Danes; the Mongols are just as they should be; the Hungars and Poles are similar with Poles doing slightly better; the HRE, France and England always get their butts kicked. So in terms of this I think that you may need to tinker to tone up the HRE, France and England, and to tone down the Danes...the rest work out decently. Also is there a way to make AI give equal priority to weaponsmiths as to armorsmiths in the provinces where these are available...that&#39;s the one thing I hardly ever see that AI build that is extremely useful...they do make them, but it seems that the priority to build em is terribly low...for example I&#39;ve never seen the AI have one in Sweden, which after 100 game turns should be pumping out well armed and armored troops.

Well that&#39;s all I can think of for now...great mod, I love playing it and can&#39;t wait for the final release http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dukezer0]

Quote[/b] ]3. I think Dukezero&#39;s question was about the auto-formation facility: during a battle, select all units, draw them out in a line and then try the numbers 1-9 (or is it 1-0?) while the mouse button is still down. The formations that get shadow-drawn don&#39;t seem right (sorry, will try to give more detail soon).

Thats the kiddy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .

[Rosacrux]

Quite good observation list by Hobot, so let me add mine as well...

Having played one full campaign (High, Byz) and started several on High and Early (and moved on about 100-120 turns, autoresolving all the battles), I have seen several patterns...

- I witness in each and every game the Danemark-the-Powerhouse phainomenon. They grow big and wipe out whole factions in no time. They ought to be toned down, and not just a bit. They even go into the med, and they conquer everybloodything, with huge stacks of ships all over.

- The second powerhouse in my games are the Italians. In my Byz games they dominate the western portion of the map, along with the Danes (the Danes also own half eastern portion of the map as well). In my non-Byz games they own the whole Med, with an exception or two (and those are owned by the Danes). 100 turns into the game (starting on Early) they seem to have one 12-18 ships stack in every sea area

- The Mongols are ...well, extremely strong. If you start as Turks, Novgorods or Byz (depending on the way you expand) or Poland, or even Hungary, you are toast... In one of my Byz games they attacked my Khazar, Georgia, Armenia and the Novgorod-owned Volga-Bulgaria with appr. 45 stacks of 1.100-1500 troops each... they were HUGE and the ultra-overpowered Mongol Horse Archers wiped their butt with my Byz. Inf, Cav and Kataphractoi... waaaay too overpowered, if I may say so, but it adds a huge challenge for the player who dares the abovementioned factions.

- There are some balance issues regarding the units, but others have described them better than I would.

- The Muslim factions need desperately help. In each and every of my games they leave the scene 50-70 turns into the game. ALL of them. ALL THREE of them.

- The French are doing zip in each and every game and so do the Germans. Good that you adressed the lack of a spear unit, even though I found it quite fun to aim for the pyrenee provinces to get one as France. The Byzantines occasionaly grow extremely big, but most of the times get reduced to Crete, Rhodes and maybe Cyprus.

- Cutting the med off from the Ocean was an extremely bad idea. A gamebreaker, IMHO. I returned to 3.08 because of it.

I am waiting eagerly the final version. I&#39;ll mod back the connected seas, though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Oct. 02 2003,11:00)]- Cutting the med off from the Ocean was an extremely bad idea. A gamebreaker, IMHO. I returned to 3.08 because of it.
I find the break between the Med and the Atlantic a drastic improvement. there just wasn&#39;t that much effective ocean travel between the two spheres back during the middle ages. You certainly couldn&#39;t move armies that way - from england or Denmark to the Mediteranian. They ALWAYS marched overland. I also like not being able to move strategic agents as quicly between the Atlantic and Mediteranian. they have to travel via Spain, or the Kiev/Lithuania land route.

I love the seperation.

[Hobot]

Agreed about the med/atlantic divide, I think it&#39;s a great idea, allows there to exist two spheres of sea influence, both of which are extremely hard to dominate with one nation. Excellent for game balance IMHO. Err I just saw the 3.10 post...running over there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif