Highs and lows of Golden Horde Fighting

[NewJeffCT]

OK, here is another story for you. I had usually not had a lot of problems dealing with the Golden Horde in the past. However, I fought a very long battle with them on Saturday and barely survived. Granted, I was outnumbered almost 3 to 1. However, I was confident because I had 3 units of Janissary Heavy Infantry that I had managed to crank out and move up to Khazar after I had barely finished building my military academy 4 or 5 years earlier. I did not have the requirements for Janissary archers or infantry yet, however. But, I had plenty of Ghulam cavalry from their bonus province, Armenian Heavy Cav from their bonus province, Turcoman Foot from their bonus province, etc. And, Kwaz heavy cavalry, Turcoman horse, plus my Futuuwas as well and a ton of Saracen infantry. And, 3 units of naptha throwers (more on that later…) I had an 8 star 6 valor general in an old Ghulam Bodyguard unit in Khazar as my general. He was my fleet admiral. All my troops were quality. I placed my 3 JHI in the center of my defense, as I knew that is where the Khan would go.

The Horde had almost 14,000 or so against my 4,777. However, I knew a good percentage of those would be the weak steppe cavalry and decent horde warriors. So, I was not too worried.

Sure enough, wave after wave broke against my lines. The Khan fled off the board, the sole survivor of his unit of 41, chopped by pieces by the JHI. He was too quick for my cavalry to catch him, though. I thought I had them beat and I would still have my 3 original JHI units on the board (though now very tired and down under 50 each). I cycled my depleted archer units in and out like a master, however. But, their next wave seemed to stay way on the other side of the board. However, I placed the cursor over the units, and it seemed to be only two units – one heavy cavalry and one horse archer. They sat there and I waited and waited for them to come, thinking that more reinforcements were coming. None came. Day passed into night and morning. I figured that this was too easy.

Finally, I lost patience and I marched my troops across the board to wipe out what I thought were the last two units.

Boy, was I wrong.

The Horde had all 16 units bunched up as one. So, my troops were very tired or exhausted by the time I noticed that it was not just two units there. Luckily, I had 3 or 4 units of Saracen infantry (and my 3 JHI) to counter the Mongol Heavy Cavalry and my futuuwas, Turcoman horse and foot to rain down on the horse archers. However, it was a bloody mess before I got them to run off the board.

However, much to my surprise, as they ran off the board – all at the same time, as they were on their edge of the map, 16 more Horde units came on the board. I am sitting there thinking I just made a huge mistake. Luckily, I was able to form my defensive lines a bit and have some troops in the forest, and I beat back the second wave. Just in case, I sent several units off the board to get reinforcements back.

However, they had to march, exhausted, or totally exhausted, off the board, and that takes forever. And, my early luck with reinforcement order did not succeed, as Ghazi infantry and Armenian Heavy cavalry are not good at chasing down Mongol Horse Archers.

By the third wave on this side of the board, I was in serious trouble. My JHI units were down to less than half strength each, and they were exhausted. My reinforcements were now Saracen infantry – not good to counter horse archers. My general had to charge into battle to save some men retreating into the woods. He got trapped and boxed in – so I sent my exhausted JHI out to rescue him. Well, he escaped, but only he did. His 19 bodyguards all perished. However, it is not so easy to kill a now 11 valor general. But, one of my JHI units disappeared in the wave of the horde while my general was working his way out of the box. I think the last one made it up to 9 valor.

By the fifth wave, I was down to my last 3 units of reinforcements – 3 naptha thrower units, all very tired by the time they march across the board. My Saracens were being worn down by arrow fire from 3 horse archer units and 5 or 6 units of GH warriors. Luckily, my naptha throwers did well before they used up their grenades. So, I was left with my general, a unit of 1, 3 naptha units was no grenades and 6 saracen infantry units, all well depleted. Nothing else. I was able to perform a few pincer maneuver to trap some warriors, but inevitably, they would slip out of the woods and get arrowed up by the remaining Mongol horse archers.

Finally, I said that this was enough and I would go out in a blaze of glory. I had caused considerably more casualties than I received, so I knew my troops would be able to defeat the Horde next year. I sent my general around the back of the horse archers and they ran into my Saracens, but, they were then flanked by some hidden units of GH warriors on the other side of the woods. All seemed lost when I rushed those 36 naptha throwers into the flank of the GH warriors. Finally, the Horde fled the field. I was left with my general, 86 total Saracen infantry in 6 units and 12 naptha throwers.

My lesson is to be patient next time. To top it off, my general did not even get the “good defender” virtue, or “skilled last stand” which I was hoping for…

[Brutal DLX]

Interesting story. Although I have to say I always avoid such huge battles. This wave-fighting is too boring.
Usually I let the Horde spread out and then defeat them one after another. If you get rid of of their Heavy Cavalry, they pose no threat anymore.

[YunDog]

Great story, I loved the attention to the small details. I have had some similar experiences although I dont think Ive ever taken on 14,000 before. Ive also had plenty of experiences that turn out alot worse against the horde for instance my entire army routing and getting cut to pieces, or thinking that Ive won only to have my men become so exhausted trying to trap his horses that the horses then turn and skirmish and turn my whole army. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Naptha throwers, I love em and I hate em, usually I hate them cause their bombs fall as short rounds and turn my own men when I had been winning easily, or they blow up my 6 star general http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

I loved playing as the turks

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Revenant69]

I had a similar experience against the Horde. it was an 8 hour battle which took two days to resolve. It was truly Epic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif My 10000 troops versus 13500 Mongols. I emerged victorious losing 2500 and the Mongols lost over 7500. Thats 10000 corpses on the field.

In that battle the Mongol waves also stopped coming at me. They were just content sitting on the horizon. I didnt make a mistake of moving to engage them though, I just sat in my forest hoping that they would not advance because I wanted the battle to be over. Unfortunatley just as in your case, even though my General was victorious he did not gain the "good defender” virtue, or “skilled last stand”.

I wonder what do yuo have to do to get these virtues.

[ShaiHulud]

Likewise, I had a (my first&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif monumental battle against the horde, though only with 1500 troops versus almost 14,000 Mongols. Having no experience against the Horde, that seemed like plenty. lol

Around 150 survived solely due to a nearby woods.

Seljuk advocates luring them into the desert provinces but I can't imagine how troops would survive thousands of horse archers without the protection of a forest.

NewJeff....

Here's the recount of Revenant's and my own encounters with the Horde....

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....l+horde (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=10527;hl=mongol+horde)

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....l+horde (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=9134;hl=mongol+horde)

[rory_20_uk]

What in the name of Belzibub's balls did you march over there for in the first place? If you really want a fight, send over 1 unit of cavalry to have a peek from a decent vantage point, not lug your entire army on a sightseeing adventure
If they want to sit there and take in the view (and waste time) so be it. If you are playing on infinite time, may I suggest that a slow move forward taking the most advantageous ground is the best policy, as then if the shit doeth hit said fan you are in a good a position as you can be in. This does take longer, but just wind the speed on to compensate.
Now I am not saying that in the heat of the moment I've not chased a "vanquished" foe off the board right into the maw of the renforcements - and usually suffered far greater losses then than in the "proper" battle.
that said, it is the closet battle I've ever heard of. Well done for pulling it off in the end.

My "epic horde battle" was when I forgot that the horde appeared when I was playing as Byzantium. In the Kazar there is a nice big forest, so I basically sat my entire force in there mainly Byzantine infantry and spend AGES killing unit after unit of horses by achieving localised superiority in numbers and routing unit after unit. Killing the Khan helped, but he committed suicide more than me doing anything clever - he by himself decided to take a tour of my lines, and seemed surprised when I surrounded him and hacked him to pieces. What a prat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[NewJeffCT]

Well, I had thought about letting the timer run out, but decided that it seemed a bit cheesy after such a long & tough battle. I wish I took some screenshots now.

I know the Mongols lost over 10,000, but I had very few prisoners – less than 1,000. I think I lost about 2,700. I usually seem to take more prisoners than I kill… but, I have never fought a battle nearly that size before (I had one battle that was about 5,000 versus 5,000) A lot of my units were saved when I ran spent archers off the board – I wish I had saved a unit of Futuuwas, though. They probably would have chewed up those Mongol warriors in melee. Even Turcoman Horse would have been nice for the flanking possibilities... One thing I learned is that 'former prince' Early era ghulam bodyguards with no armor upgrades are no match for Mongol Heavy Cavalry in the High era. Thankfully, he was my 8 star admiral of the fleet general, though, and he managed to survive while his 19 compadres got whittled down pretty quickly.

[Revenant69]

I am about to face the Horde in my current SP Turkish campaign (on Expert). Hehe its gonna be fun. They spawned with around 14000 troops in Khazar and some 4000 in volga-Bulgaria. So the Ruskies are probably gonna run from Volga-Bulgaria and even if i defeat the Horde in Khazar they will just retreat to Volga-Bulgaria. So it means i have to destroy their numbers as much as i can. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I dont have a lot of troops in Khazar, but i have a 9 star general + a full stack of gold armored Jannisary Heavy Infantry and countless cavalry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Should be fun. Looks like it is going to be one of those 8 hour battles again.

Cheers,
Rev

[bhutavarna]

i'm having the same problem. the mongol horde landed in khazar two turns ago, and for some reason they want to take georgia from my byz empire. duh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

georgia is, in my opinion, one of the worst place to fight the horde. it's hilly arid land with few forest, not good for my foot dominant army.

needless to say i'm struggling a little bit now. i managed to hold off two wave of invasions, in which i made quite a hefty sum of profit from ransom. but i fear for the next wave that i'm sure will come.

[DemonArchangel]

VG'S/JHIs/SAP'S chew up Golden Horde heavy cavalry (and just about everything else) in a flanking or woods attack. Golden horde warrior are weak and any sword infantry will beat them. Now the horse archers. Use pavaise x-bows and skutatoi/spears (make em' urself) to hold your flanks.

[The_Emperor]

The Golden Horde... Don't we just love it when they show up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I love fighting the Horde in very large battles, I have been given a taste for it now and I must admit that Kiev is perhaps the best province to drive them back, it may be flat but it has a river with a bridge and isolated pockets of forest you can hide in... Perfect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Fighting them Back in Khazar & Volga-Bulgaria in one go does sound very appealing, I hear that if you manage to turn the tide and drive them out when they initially arrive they cannot re-emerge and just vanish from the map

I must try that one day when I have the time (Probably take all weekend)

[Revenant69]

Quote[/b] ]I must try that one day when I have the time (Probably take all weekend)

Hehehe, yeah it would take about a weekend to fight the Horde in Khazar. I have noticed that the number of troops does not influence the time limit. Only the total number of units does. So 10 units of longbows will give you the same time limit as 10 units of Chiv Sarges. Hence, if you want to reduce the time limit (may not be a bad idea) - do not bring too many units for the battle. I learned this the hard way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Well, I think i have to get back to my Khazar battle. 7000 Turks vs 14000 Mongols. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

*Ponders if he should use the Mercenary Organ guns in the initial setup*

[lancer63]

Quote[/b] (bhutavarna @ Sep. 16 2003,15:17)]georgia is, in my opinion, one of the worst place to fight the horde. it's hilly arid land with few forest, not good for my foot dominant army.

needless to say i'm struggling a little bit now. i managed to hold off two wave of invasions, in which i made quite a hefty sum of profit from ransom. but i fear for the next wave that i'm sure will come.
If I have to face the GH, I look for at least one of three things: a bridge, a decent forrest, steep hills.
If I have to face the Mongols on flat, bare terrain I know I´ll take a licking. Kiev has its bridges and you can hold off whatever they throw at you until forever and a day. Kazar has nice big fat forrests, so you just need to be patient there too.
Georgia and Armenia are hilly country and the mongols suffer there. They are made for steppe warfare. Once as the Biz I had a 2300+ vs. 5000+ battle in Armenia. I played as a miser, only risking limited counter attacks and placing reserve ranged units in 'hold fire' until reallly (and desperatelly needed).
I lost some 300- troops, killed some 2400+ and got a huge ransom for the rest since they had nowhere to run after the battle.
If the enemy stops and does nothing, I send a fast, or expendable, or very depleted, or all of the above (whew&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
to scout the field. I also make my general give his back to the enemy. This makes it move when there's enough of them.
But no matter what I do, mongol battles are always long and exhausting because the GH doesn't give a darn about their routing or dead commanders, like other sensible and civilized factions do. In other words, they don't know when they're beaten. that's why they win from time to time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[bhutavarna]

organ guns rock

i kept a few in my army, mercenaries off course, i can't make them. they're crucial when i beat the horde. too bad they don't have alot of ammo.

[bhutavarna]

Quote[/b] ]Georgia and Armenia are hilly country and the mongols suffer there. They are made for steppe warfare.

thanks for the advise lancer63.

under normal circumstances i would agree with you. but, the problem i'm having now isn't only with the terrain.

i'm playing the high period as byz. the horde showed up a couple turns after i beat the backstabbing turks. my resources are depleted. i lost many horse units against the turks and couldn't replace them fast enough. so i had to fight the horde with mostly byz infantrys and bow units.

the two battles i won in georgia, i won with quite some loses. i killed about 2000+, lost about 700+.

my tactic is pretty simple. beat the first wave of the horde using standard method, bows first, melee, then flank, since the mongol first wave always consists of heavys and warriors. that done, i withdraw depleted bows, add reinforcement. mongols then return with horse archers. so i march to forest. and because i have s### for luck the forests are always near the front. this is where it gets painful, my foot soldiers are showered with arrows and there is nothing i can do about it. once i get to the forest though, it's easy. i just wait until time runs out, and kill any bastards who dare to come near.

you can see why i don't like the hills and forests of georgia.

[SirGrotius]

i too defeated the golden horde the old fashioned way...about three hours of playing, and the beating back of perhaps ten successive waves of gh troops (many of my men held out in forested areas in Khazar), after that, they stopped coming. i was too scared to even touch my mouse or scroll the camera, so i just set the speed to 100% and waited for the time to expire, which it did. they went back to mongolia and i thought myself just brilliant (they must be scared of the dark?)

[NewJeffCT]

I played on and off all day Saturday on that one battle (more off, as I have a 6 month old daughter and my wife is in China on business...) I'm guessing I spent at least 4 hours on it, though.

[lancer63]

Quote[/b] (bhutavarna @ Sep. 16 2003,19:57)]my tactic is pretty simple. beat the first wave of the horde using standard method, bows first, melee, then flank, since the mongol first wave always consists of heavys and warriors. that done, i withdraw depleted bows, add reinforcement. mongols then return with horse archers. so i march to forest. and because i have s### for luck the forests are always near the front. this is where it gets painful, my foot soldiers are showered with arrows and there is nothing i can do about it. once i get to the forest though, it's easy. i just wait until time runs out, and kill any bastards who dare to come near.

you can see why i don't like the hills and forests of georgia.
One lesson I learned the hard way is to always keep at least a fresh ranged unit in reserve, and I mean on the field, not as reinforcement. I keep it with 'hold fire' on to keep it from depleting its precious ammo. The AI tends to place most your ranged units in your starting army and generally all your bolts and arrows are spent by the second/third mongol wave.
By using less ranged units at one time I manage to always have something to counter those annoying horse archers, and by being on the highest possible part of a mountain I had the range advantage over them, almost thrice their range. Many mongol archers fled the field before even firing a shot.
If you're playing the biz, try and have at least 2 VGs and 3BI units, + as many treb archers, x bows, arbs and pavise arbs as you can.
The biz have the Biz cav and Biz lancers of which you should have a fair amount by 1230. They can mor than make up for the Kats and Prons is case they're not available yet.

And remember. The GH is counting on you making something stupid. So try not ot engage more than one third of your forces on the field at one time, fight the urge to pursue too far and try not to run out of ammo.
In Armenia I couldn't get to a decent forrest but 10 mongols died for each one of my casualties. That's a fair kill ratio imho. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[desdichado]

My worst defeat against the horde was when playing as HRE - overestimated how many mongols I had killed and ventured out to kill the rest. Obviously my infantry got separated and slaughtered. With no reinforcements I retreated to a small wood with around 100 men determined to wait battle out and come up with a (hollow) victory. Half an hour later my general was felled by a mongol arrow and my remaining men ran and were gobbled up by the jubilant mongols. Lost Lithuania, my only decent general in the area (the rest were out west getting spanked by English billmen) but at least learned an important lesson - don't send units chasing mongols all over the map if you want them to come back

[Revenant69]

Well, it took me all evening yesterday to fight the Horde (i took a lot of breaks). Here are my observations:

1. Organ Guns didn't fire a single shot and were shot down by the Mongol archers while their heavy cavalry patiently waited to engage.

2. My 5 deployed Jannisary Heavy Infantry accounted for 2007 kills and captures while only losing 60% of their numbers. They also gained 3-4 valor each. After teh battle they were recombined into two mega- tough units of 3 and 4 valor.

3. The "Hammer and Anvil" tactic worked wonders. My cavalry encircling their archers and pushing them into the forest where the JHI were hiding - time after time.

4. I lost about 80% of my cavalry due to the Hammer and Anvil tactic.

5. Dismounted gold shield (mercenary) Druzhyna cavalry performed almost as good as the JHI, but finally succumbed in the open to the enemy horse archers while withdrawing off-field.

6. After numerous waves of Mongol cavalry the sight of Mongol foot soldier is a welcome one indeed as it heralds the last third of the battle.

7. Mongol foot cant put up much of a fight against cavalry while not having cavalry themselves.

8. Naptha thowers are deadly in large numbers - routing my exhausted cavalry on many occasions.

9. The annoying "idle" bug, where mongols just sit and dont advance, is really getting out of hand. I decided to advance and destroy them instead of waiting for the time to run out.

10. When you only see 4 units of mongol foot spawn and nothing else - that probably means that the battle is almost done http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

11. Almost forgot, 3 units of mercenary longbows make a really really short work of the Khan.

12. Casualty list: Mongols, Dead: 6125 Captured (and then executed) 2530. Turks: 1608. Hmmm 5:1 kill ratio - ill take it any day against the mongols.

Well thats it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Lord_PH]

ive had the same experiences, especially when playing the russians...so many revolts...i was doing fine...THEN, the mongols came to ruin my day, especially when my military is SO spread out

my army was a 20 stack army, against well...OVERWHELMING odds...but, 50% of the army where boyars, so that was quite good overall...

the most vital lesson to learn...
-NEVER CHASE AFTER THEM (even if it is tempting)
-make a defensive line to retreat to.
-its gonna be a LONG, LONG battle or two.

[Slyspy]

I always go assassin crazy on the horde. I've lost count of how many generals, princes and khans have fallen to the blade in the night. Then the rest is relatively easy if tedious mopping up. As opposed to long tedious getting your arse kicked

[Lehesu]

I thought this was a thread on how to fight as the Horde. Thought it was about Shoggy Mongol Fighting or even modded MTW Mongol Fighting. Had some comments on that but...I shall see myself out now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

I hate taking on the mongols at khazar, three hours simply takes too long to fight.

As a muslim faction, I often take some catholic province and surround it then try for a loyalist revolt. Typically the loyalty of the new general is 2-3 shields so I can bribe them easily getting chiv knights and halberdiers. Chiv knights are better than mongol HC,

[hellenes]

Have you ever tried to start as mongols? I mean with the -ian command line start high period and swich to rebels (i think its 0) then when the horde arrives just press shift and 4 (im not shure bout the number) and voila you are invading as the horde (of course you will control the next turn.Try it and have fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Quote[/b] (hellenes @ Sep. 20 2003,11:13)]Have you ever tried to start as mongols? I mean with the -ian command line start high period and swich to rebels (i think its 0) then when the horde arrives just press shift and 4 (im not shure bout the number) and voila you are invading as the horde (of course you will control the next turn.Try it and have fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Thats the first I have ever heard of playing as mongols
Are you pulling our leg?

I am also technically illitereate, how does one start with a -ian command line? To play rebeles istnt the cheat .conan. in the strategy map screen?

[Mr Frost]

Quote[/b] (o_loompah @ Sep. 21 2003,05:38)]
Quote[/b] (hellenes @ Sep. 20 2003,11:13)]Have you ever tried to start as mongols? I mean with the -ian command line start high period and swich to rebels (i think its 0) then when the horde arrives just press shift and 4 (im not shure bout the number) and voila you are invading as the horde (of course you will control the next turn.Try it and have fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Thats the first I have ever heard of playing as mongols
Are you pulling our leg?

I am also technically illitereate, how does one start with a -ian command line? To play rebeles istnt the cheat .conan. in the strategy map screen?
Right click your MTW shortcut on your Desktop , then click Properties then note there is text highlighted in a windoow that should say "C:\Program Files\Total War\Medieval - Total War\Medieval_TW.exe" -strictserver" .
Change the -strictserver part to -ian so it now says"C:\Program Files\Total War\Medieval - Total War\Medieval_TW.exe" -ian .

Now you can play in a sort of "debugging" mode that allows you to swich factions at will {just play with the numbers buttons and shift+numbers to find which is which ... Rebels is always 1} and can use G for godmode which lets you see all provinces and lots of other things {VERY useful for testing mods} .
When the Mongols arrive , they will have a number like every other faction , thus you should be able to play them in High ... same for Swiss and Burgundian too I imagine .

And no , I don't know who Ian is either http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[alby]

like rory the khan also commited suicide on my 1st encounter with the horde which certainly helped in my victory. the odds were probly about 5-1 but my billmen being firmly planted (excuse the pun) in a forest made mincemeat of any enemy attack.

a good recount of the battle u have made but perhaps next time u will learn not to chase your foes down when u are fighting wot clearly is a defensive battle

[ShaiHulud]

I've noticed a tendency in Mongol deployments which may be useful to know.

When the AI divides its Horde units in a province they own, a stack has a couple of Mongol foot, 4-5 Mongol heavies, 5 Mongol HA, and the rest are Steppe Cavalry.

However, when they attack, they are echeloned in the same manner every time. The first wave of units is 2-3 heavies, 4-5 HA, and the rest are Mongol foot. Reinforcements come as follows: all the remaining Mongol foot, then all the remaining HA, then most of the remaining Steppe cavalry, then a long period of Heavies, followed by whatever is left of the Steppe and other types (ie: peasants, spears, etc)

I offer the caveat that my observations were made in Kiev, where the Mongols are attacking from Khazar, across a bridge. I THINK I recall the same from my Khazar defense, but, their deployments might differ in a plains environment. I've fought three engagements there (Kiev) against 9K+, then 6K+, then 4K+ Mongols. (There's another assault coming when I return to the game&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I've found it useful in Kiev because I can choose the best mix to begin with and now know when to conserve arrows for the more difficult units.

One other observation.... after you've finished with the HA reinforcements, placing units in 'Hold Position', 'Hold Formation' on the bridge fixes the attention of the following reinforcements. Like moths to the flame, they all head for the bridge in contest.

In my first bridge battle I allowed my foot units to pursue the HA onto the bridge (I now advise AGAINST this) and they retreated to their side of the river. Some retreated too near the OTHER Kiev bridge and, logically, decided THAT looked like a good place to cross.

With my position turned, I had to retreat into the nearest woods and I took a lot of losses. By initially setting up at a distance just beyond the HA range from the bridge, they are compelled to cross completely and their following units disperse on MY side of the river. Then I just send my flank units in to herd them back to the center, killing many, routing many.

Immediately I return my flank units to their previous positions and the Mongols ride into the same trap. This decisively destroys their Horse archers (remember, they all come on in one echelon) and, when they are departed from the field, I can use my foot units to hold the bridge with no fear of becoming pincushions.

My method for deploying them on the bridge is to target my unit on a Mongol unit but halt my unit (on the bridge) before contact, requiring him to receive the attack. When he tires I target a replacement unit on the Mongols presently in contact. Just as he reaches that unit, again, I issue the 'Halt' order. He now forms the front line and I can either leave the previous frontline unit in place to rest or withdraw it.

You can keep marching fresh units onto the bridge in this manner, each a little further upon the bridge. Make sure you do this on the FLAT part of the bridge. Remember,if you fight uphill, you give away advantage. Additionally, because the unit is 'standing', its endurance holds up very well.

It takes management but I found it fun. Be prepared to commit 3, 4, or more units to rescue the zealots who FAIL to follow instructions and just won't stop advancing. Last night's finale had a unit with 28 Chivalric MAA (who'd JUST achieved 8 Valor) chase into Mongol heavies off the bridge. The brave fools simply would not stop

I wound up committing 5 more units to 'rescue' them. Instead, they chopped the living daylights out of the Mongols Only nine survived their being surrounded before I broke their encirclement, but, the Mongols broke and fled the field, despite their having 2K more in reinforcements.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[bighairyman]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Sep. 15 2003,17:18)]Interesting story. Although I have to say I always avoid such huge battles. This wave-fighting is too boring.
Usually I let the Horde spread out and then defeat them one after another. If you get rid of of their Heavy Cavalry, they pose no threat anymore.
i don't think the mongol heavy cavalry is the most threating unit inthe mongol army. the mo gol heavy cavalry will get chew up by any elite/bodyguard cavalry. IT's the MONGOL CAVALRY ARCHER that is the most dangeroius. i usually lose more men chasing them then the melee battle.

and to play as the mongols, do this:
go to my computer, totalwar file. go to CAMPMAP, then go to STARTPOS, now you will see notepads that said EARly, late of high. click one of those. now you will see something like this://SetActiveFaction:: FN_GOLDEN_HORDE FT_MAJOR. it's in the miidle of the notepad. now all you have to do is change FT_MINOR ito FT_MAJOR. now start a new game in late, and in the screen where you choose ur faction, the golden horde will be there. you can also played as the pope and other samll factions that were non playable.
enjoy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif