Why the Time Commanders players sucked? [Archive]

frogbeastegg

09-16-2003, 11:02

You missed 'They don't know what they are doing because no one explained the game to them'. I feel that they could be less crap if someone told them what the units did and what they were supposed to do before filming started.

Just for friendly information most British people identify with both the Romans and Boudica. We admire Boudica's strength and determination to fight against overwhelming odds to free here people. We also admire the Romans organisation, cohesion and achievements. A politically correct version of the battle would have been a draw http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

lanky316

09-16-2003, 11:54

It was shear incompetence. They were completely new to the system of Total War but that had nothing to do with it as they had experts there to control the troops and decisions anyway.

They moved troops out of a good defencive position at the start and that was it. No redeeming performance on the part of the teams performance espeically when they gave up basically and went for Big Boud. If they hadn't wasted the cavalry they might have been able to redeem something but they suffered from poor tactical decisions and got what they deserved really.

MonkeyMan

09-16-2003, 12:07

Hi lanky316 welcome to the org http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Good to have you with us. I missed the last time commanders I'm afraid so I can't comment myself, looking forward to seeing it tonight though.

The Blind King of Bohemia

09-16-2003, 14:35

They were crap, as simple as that but it was funny though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

econ21

09-16-2003, 14:47

I voted (1) outnumbered 6 to 1, where both sides had mainly swords - in a TW game, I think the Romans would have lost anyway without a pretty hefty advantage in valour or command stars.

I suspect the players had an overly optimistic assessment of their units' capabilities - they were thinking they were in a situation like British redcoats fighting Zulus (witness trying to emulate Ben Hur archer tactics and relying on the wonderful tortoise formation).

Even so, I suspect they would have been massacred even if they were commanding redcoats fighting Zulus (Isandlwhana anyone?).

Duke John

09-16-2003, 16:33

Why are people so vengefull over a gameshow? And there was a good commander in the form of the female general (Joe?) so don't generalise with They were crap.

Alternatively you could change this thread into why multiplayers suck?
1. They only care about winning
2. They do not care for communication
3. The Non clan members are n00bs-mentality
4. They play the same Pav war on steppe over and over again
5. Gah

Cheers, Duke John

The_Emperor

09-16-2003, 18:08

I think they just didn't have any knowledge of ancient warfare, I mean the website states this isn't a requirement...

Even so being outnumbered 6:1 is a bit harsh, but I do think the Romans could have pulled it off with their better equipment and discipline, fighting from the high ground.

Lets see how next episode goes... You know maybe we should organise an Org team to go on and see how easy it is?

lanky316

09-16-2003, 18:15

They are only looking for applicants for a show on the 25th September and I think they've been booked because I haven't heard anything from them yet. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I think it'd be great if it got onto a second series and played out more of a multiplayer campaign, I think that might be asking too much though.

Sephiroth

09-22-2003, 09:45

Well the only episode i watched was the remake of Caesar's helvettii battle and even though the 'commanders' did make the same mistake as caesar, i.e missed the whole flanking force thing, the fact they didnt put their heavy units on high ground and placed them in the valley floor was really thick seeing as they were outnumbered two to one. The only way the actually won was because the sheer toughness of the Roman H.Infantry....now i wud love to see some moderators of this forum taking up the mantle and wooping ass..show how it shud be done

Scipio

09-24-2003, 04:27

the reason the tc's suck is that there is no expereince needed so they dont even have to have played tw

lanky316

09-24-2003, 12:56

The way I see it is that you don't need to have played TW to do well. It is mainly common knowledge. You know that being higher up is an advantage, it's something you learn arm wrestling at the age of 5. If you can get higher then your opponent you will havre a leverage boost and prolly win.

MILITARYMAN

09-27-2003, 16:05

I agree they do suck

rejectedhousecarl

10-04-2003, 03:40

The reason they don't need experience at it is because those technician guys are doing all the shifting about of units and such (plus we occasionally get a sneaky peek at what RTW looks like so far...look on the experts screen...)
admittedly you would have thought, you know you going on a gameshow that is about massive ancient battles...there's something you can do to help...it's called research...

Mount Suribachi

10-04-2003, 19:25

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Sep. 16 2003,11:02)]You missed 'They don't know what they are doing because no one explained the game to them'. I feel that they could be less crap if someone told them what the units did and what they were supposed to do before filming started.
Bingo

The Wizard

10-09-2003, 13:33

That episode was, simply put, painful to watch. Oh, the horror of seeing the Romans lose to a bunch of unorganised brutes that were completely slaughtered in reality http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

katar

10-09-2003, 21:09

tonights battle of Pharsalus, the moronic human generals (actually just one overbearing general) got creamed again. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

makes me want to puke. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Krazy Munkey

10-10-2003, 02:50

They have disgraced Romehttp://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

They were giant reterds with no experience on computers. How else could a Roman army get beaten by a bunch of stupid, unarmored Briton tribesmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

they Just sucked

Gregoshi

10-10-2003, 05:13

Welcome to the Org Krazy Munkey. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I think what you mean as a negative (they suck), the producers see as a compliment. They suck appears to be the goal of the show. Okay, so I'm twisting their words a little. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Custor

10-10-2003, 07:48

Unfair on the contestents as they get attacked most of the time when they are deploying their troops.
Lets have a look at the map,
we'll give you guys a briefing on your troops,
we'll give you a briefing on their troops,
heres sopme scouts,
ok, deploy your troops - woops sorry guys game on - WTF?

These guys are the 'Generals' yet they don't get to deploy their army before the battle starts? Tell them that and maybe there wouldn't be such chaos.
The students today spoke well but couldn't execute due to being attacked before they had set up. They never recovered from that.

Another note when we ever get a team thats puts its skirmishers just in front of the battle line to skirmish rather than picking a hill miles away on the flank?

Shono

10-10-2003, 14:29

Correct me if I missed it as I swithed on about 5 minutes late, however I know the experts were talking about how weak and poorly trained Pompeiis units were but I dont believe anybody really portrayed that to the team.

Also that Caesar was commanding a veteran army that had 10 years campaigning under their belts.

They just dont get a chance, and I agree it is made to make the contestants look like dicks. No thought to make it enjoyable.

Halfway through last night I could have switched off, I am loosing interest in it, or perhaps just having a bad day at work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

zathros

10-21-2003, 15:01

I think the problem was a lack of training for the team. If they added a small section about showing the contenstants how to direct military actions - just basic stuff nothing fancy - it would add an additional educational aspect to the rpgram, and allow us to see how well they took it all in, giving them also a better chance to outwit the AI.

This is also something that concerns me though. Is is that they are not doing this, because unleashing trained contestants against the AI may serve to highlight any deficiencies the AI has?

I enjoy the prgram generally, but the way it's put together, is, in my opinion very lightweight.

King John II

10-21-2003, 16:49

You know, the producers of the show might very well like the idea of a team from here.

I suspect it would make for good TV.

If four vet UK MP players would like to give the idea a try I'd happily take on the task of making an approach to the producers.

Parmenio

10-21-2003, 19:09

The more episodes I watch the more certain I am that the producers are very wary of letting anyone with previous experience of TW games command a battle, in fear that they exploit the known AI flaws.

That said, the whole game structure appears to be stacked against the contestants to such a degree that I doubt the two annoying historical experts/commentators could do any better than the contestants.

King John II

10-22-2003, 10:57

What might be interesting would be to duplicate the units for some of the battles and the terrain as closely as possible and then see how a skilled MP player got on.

Gregoshi

10-23-2003, 03:51

Hello zathros and welcome to the Org forums. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

It would seem only fair to give the contestants some basic training before they are thrown to the wolves. Does anyone know what kind of pre-show briefing/prep the contestants are given?

katar

10-23-2003, 07:50

Quote[/b] ]Does anyone know what kind of pre-show briefing/prep the contestants are given?

yep, it`s called Knitting In Ten Easy Steps, because there is no way in hell they are getting any sort of ancient military tactical manual or training http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Cheetah

10-23-2003, 08:01

I think they got no pre-battle, pre-show briefing, at least judged from the performance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Cheetah

10-23-2003, 08:01

I think they got no pre-battle, pre-show briefing, at least judged from the performance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Derfal Cadarn

10-24-2003, 01:41

Well the celebrities didnt do too badly tonight

shows that someone with a bit of strategy can at least do well at this version of the game, without having to know anything about the total war series, or then again maybe they are secret tw players, and for once I think the leutenants(hmm im sure there is an I in there somewhere but cant find me dictionary at the moment) actually played a fairly active part in the show and were allowed to think for themselves, altho this was through bad communication from the generals as opposed to design. Previous shows the non generals (saves me having to make same typo http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )have just been glorified messengers and im sure in real life the captain of alexanders archers didnt need to be told by alexander himself to get his men out of there when being attacked by calvary.

With regards to the briefings etc i may be naive here but working on the basis that the show is recorded and hence edited when we see it, there is probably a lot that we dont actually see, altho i will agree the way some of them have played you wonder why they even volunteered to be on the show. and yes maybe the show doesnt come across as being as freindly to the players as it could be, but at the end of the day would you volunteer to appear on a program that you do not even have the basic idea about, its not as if maintaining position on the high ground would appear on page two of a battle tactics manual (waits for someone to prove me wrong on that point http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

I think most of the people who play the game will agree that the BBC could make it more interesting from our point of view, but for viewers who possibly dont even know that the show is based on a commercial game (I didnt until i went searching on the bbc web site after show one) the enjoyment is watching people make a complete mess , sitting there shouting at the tv saying nooooooooooooo dont do that

anyways thats my 5 1/2 pence worth for anyone remotely interested

ps on a totally different track my 63 year old english king has finally produced a son after previously siring 10 princesses in a row. i was just lucky that he had a very young brother to take over when he died at the age of 65

Rodafowa

10-24-2003, 11:53

Last night's episode was the best I've seen yet by an absolute street. The tactical plan (blow away the enemy flanks, clobber the enemy phalanxes from behind) was a good one, although it would have worked even better had they concentrated all their Nellyphants on the right, as Al Murray wanted them to (that said, if they'd listened to his plan and hung their phalanxes out to dry in the beergut formation, they'd proably have been screwed - swings and roundabouts&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. They had the nous to deal with the enemy peanut-botherers exactly how they needed to, as well - soak up the charge with expendable light spearmen then hit the beasts with javelin and arrows 'till they bogged off. Very sweet.

What's still letting the show down for me is the fact that the teams aren't getting enough help to implement the (often good) plans they're developing. The best example last night was the squadron of cavalry who the team did well to get in behind the enemy formation but then got massacred because they stood and fought the infantry rather than hit and run. My point is - how could the team have possibly been expected to realise that the most effective way to fight was to keep withdrawing, shifting and re-charging? Surely once the computer operator's been told to take the unit into melee, it's HIS job to effectively manage them? It just seemed like a good idea was effectively wasted because of a nit-picking technicality, and that annoyed me - how much are you trying to stack the deck against the players, anyway?

All in all, though, I thoroughly enjoyed last night's episode, and so did my kids (Are you going to get this game, Dad? Why yes. Yes, I believe I might.). Hopefully lessons will have been learnt and for future episodes we'll see a few more teams who at least have enough experience to see battlefield strategy on a clear day.

That said, the move from prime-time to the Monday teatime slot doesn't seem to bode well. I hope I'm wrong.

Rodafowa

10-24-2003, 11:58

Ooops. Can't find an edit button, sorry if I'm being dim.

Just wanted to add - of course, if the team had been bright enough to wait until their phalanxes had engaged before using their cav on the enemy rear, the lack of micromanagement wouldn't have been an issue. Even so.

And, oh... damn smilie parser.

King John II

10-24-2003, 12:13

Quote[/b] (Rodafowa @ Oct. 24 2003,05:53)]Are you going to get this game, Dad? Why yes. Yes, I believe I might.

Hmmm. Well maybe you don't already have it. But it is my suspicion that, in fact, there are those in the Rodafowa household who need a couple of special agents at work to uncover the odd plot or secret

Parmenio

10-24-2003, 15:02

The overheard realtime map of the battlefield made a big difference in last night's game, perhaps as much as the leutenants freedom of action.

That said, the AI seemed to have the kid gloves on this time, using it's elephants as fire and forget missiles, and holding a very static defensive posture.

KarlIronblade

10-24-2003, 19:31

Yeah, the real time map was certainly a great help as it allowed Al and Kate to see the big picture far more clearly than some of the previous teams.

I'm really enjoying the series, and now they've got the obligatory celebrity ep out of the way, I'd love to see the historians have a go as a team for the final episode on the 18th of December. Would be great to see a team of say, Nusbacher, Mike Loades, Saul David and one of the other historians who have been on put their knowledge to the test, maybe in a completely theoretical scenario, so that they don't have any prior knowledge of what happened in the battle? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'll say one thing for the show though, my father is certainly keen on upgrading my aging comp in order to get Rome working well when it's released, and it's also got him into MTW as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Sonny

10-24-2003, 23:52

I thought Thursdays show was the best yet The lack of Romans on either side was a refreshing change, and that tactical map the Generals got actually gave them a chance to see what was going on on the battlefield.
Some clever tactics from the Lieutenants too. The elephant charge at the start the team delt with excellently, and also bringing their cavalry and elephants around the back of enemy Phalanxes was genius http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.
Its a shame the show has to drop 15 minutes length if all the other battles are of that quality.

Whats going on with the Autumn 2004 release date though for R:TW The game looks perfect already from whats been shown on the program.

Gregoshi

10-25-2003, 05:51

Greeting and welcome to the Org Rodafowa. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif It sounds like your kids are following in your footsteps. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif Though after RTW comes out, I might suggest a food & wine taster is in order for your meals... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

jacko_uk

11-23-2003, 10:45

I've said it before and i'll say it again Whats the point in having people on who have no background knowledge of the subject. In the total wat series at least you get a manual.
I would like to see how a team of total war veterans got on in the programme.

Jacko

Black Arrow

11-24-2003, 14:35

Well it seems fairly obvious to me that part of the object of the show is to get viewers to sympathize with the players (here are some untrained saps we pulled in off the street http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) If you had a team of skilled wargamers who new ancients rules inside out then the viewers would be at a loss as to what they were doing.

Strangely in at least half the battles the players have followed the historical plan more or less without actually knowing the history. Must indicate some practical skills. Worst show was the Goth encampment and the hopeless Lieutenant making a complete screw-up while shouting out the obvious but not responding to it. They should have built a kill box in front of the south gate and lured the Goths out into it with archery.

Ja'chyra

12-15-2003, 20:50

I don't know about everyone else but tonights show could have been the worst yet.

Horse archers that stand still for a charge and don't fire at the enemy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Rodafowa

12-16-2003, 12:46

Apologies if my memory's at fault, but I don't think the unit in question were exactly horse-archers. Weren't they the Hunnish nobles, who I sort've got the impression were light cav with bows and who therefore probably wouldn't have been set to skirmish?

So not the AI's fault, just one more thing the team screwed up last night. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

To be fair, they had probably the most difficult army to use properly of any I've seen in the series, which is why I think the programme-makers decided to give them to a team who at least in theory should have had some grasp of tactics.

As it was, the team caught a nasty case of magic hill syndrome, almost completely failed to take advantage of their troops' superior mobility and so, predictably, got massacred. Funniest episode I've seen yet, actually. The Butch Cassidy homage for the cav's last doomed charge was brilliant. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Ja'chyra

12-16-2003, 13:47

Sorry, didn't explain it very well.

I meant the players galloping their horse archers to the top of the hill and then forgetting about them.

In their defense it was quite a hard one and they did manage a good attack with their heavy cavalry from the flank. The comment about assure us you have nothing to do with British military tactics was priceless. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I'd imagine, I don't do MP, that having four team members is quite difficult. Also having two generals is extra hard, didn't someone say never share command? The only people I know who pulled it off were the Spartans and even then there was only one king on the field at a time.

Makes for entertaining viewing though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Maybe they should have an org team, show the AI who's boss http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

jimmy

12-16-2003, 16:52

i thought one of reasons or the main reason behind the show was to get more people interested in history. making it more palitable to the masses.
mind you trying to play the game with FOUR of you and the TV cameras on plus you dont have the foggiest idea whats going on and you aint played a game before you can see why they struggle.were all great at the game on the computer/and net at home but transfer that to a TV enviroment with four players and some scotch idiot breathing down your neck making smart comments and i believe a few expert gamers would struggle.
mind you the bald geezer with the glasses his face was a picture as he lost the plot and his unhealthy interest in the hill was even better and his feeble attempts to rally his men was funny. actually this guy was tailor made to be a stool pidgeon/fallguy his army cadet training etc and his general attitude that this was going to be a doddle so when it went wrong big style early on i might had[infantry getting slaughtered]his head just went and his stick banging was even funnier.
all in all he seemed to think thats his army background was enough.so when it went pear shaped the looks and body language said it all.
weres the nearest big hole to hide in.

as paul weller said that is entertainment

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Duncan

12-20-2003, 19:58

I feel teams get progressively a little better; the collective knowledge about that game improves slightly the quality of teams. Raphia was really interesting.

If the show goes on for a second season faces of the game will change as the software could be edited with some success.

So the difficulty could be higher, and so the interest.

When Roman Total War will be distributed, the fight of historical battles between human teams could be fairly interesting; but that could become a complete different show.

Ashen

12-23-2003, 03:28

Lack of communication, Lack of sense, lack of knowledge of gaming for the most part. I seen about 7-8 of em (cant remember all, Just Hannibal, Boudica, That city one with Ramses, Attila) - And only the Hannibal battle. The first, if my memory hasn't failed me, Could play. They laid out a great plan, and executed it well. Got a bit unstuck on their left and lost a unit of cavalry but sent the elephants in and that was that.

Too many mistakes every new general makes in every massive RTS game (mainly these) is trying to fight like in the movies. Make a static line, and stand and fight to the death - best shown in the Atila one. I mean, who here actually thinks they could have won it? Easily 100's of people on the forums.

But thats TV. Us brits love watching eachother suffer. That said - God I cant wait for r:tw http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif