No Dachi armour

[Irving]

ok. We all know that no dachi die by the dozen under arrows or gunfire. however, yari and naginata hold up well in comparison. is the reason for this the armour construction such as the NDs having traditional o-yoroi armour and the others 1 piece laquered do? also, why do ND die so easily even under arrow fire? wouldn't an o-yoroi have protected the wearer quite well from arrow fire? i understand about lead shot though

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Take a look at the picture of No-Dachi - they have VERY little armor on. The reasoning is that the weapon they use is so heavy and requires a lot of freedom of movement (specifically in the upper torso and arms). Thus armor is minimal to non-existent. This accounts for why they die rapidly under both arrow and musket fire. Also note that they are "shock" troops, and if flanked they take HORRENDOUS casualties VERY quickly.

The situation with WM's is similiar. The WM's idea of armor is a sheet. Obviously not overly protective when facing incoming missile fire (of whatever type). They do fare better however when engaging in melee due to the bonus they get due to their religious nature. This bonus basically is a defensive prop that gives WM's a nice bit of added survivability in melee.

You mention naginata - and I have to jump in here because these guys are among the most UNDER-RATED units in the game (judging by the forum). They are by far my choice whenever possible. Though they are slow, they are the tanks of the battlefield. They are covered in armor - they have the highest defense in the game, and with gold armor upgrades - are nearly impervious to arrow fire. Max upgrade them and they can stand against ANYTHING - since the gold weapons mean they get a good number of kills while only taking scratches. With such a setup, they are nearly impossible to route if going head to head only, and even if they lose they will hold MUCH longer than any other unit - allowing you to get in flankers well before they rout and thus giving you the time u need to win.

Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Irving]

BSM,
you mention their armour being heavy.. i must object. 0-yoroi is very light.. it is composite of lamalae (sp?) and is about the weight of chain mail but much tougher. moreover, in many ukiyo-e of the period, we see samurai with many armour sticking from their armour and they are still fighting!

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

[solypsist]

basically the light armor rating is to counter balance their high killing power while still keeping them affordable. you want high armor and high killing? then spend spend spend for heavy cav.

[Nelson]

The fact is body armor is an attribute the designers tamper with to make units more diverse than they were historically. All of the samurai wore armor as did many monks regardless of the weapon they wielded. Swinging a naginata didn't make ones armor stronger nor did using a nodachi made it weaker. The various degrees of armor only serve to make the unit types more unique. Most gamers like lots of different troop types so that's what we got. A real Sengoku army would be comprised of samurai (foot and mounted, both mostly using yari, and never being segregated by weapon in any case), yari ashigaru, teppo, a few ashigaru archers and that's about it. Not enough diversity for many players.

[theforce]

I used naginata lst night and they did their job. Although l like them they must be very close to guns to have any chanse into blocking incoming cav so they are taking casualties. Anyway l still like them. They were able to block heapns of monkers

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[LordTed]

Suped up ND are worth their money, simply buy them some armour if you have the koku, but does anyone know if buying armour incurs a movement penalty.

[Gothmog]

So "BSM the naginata fanatic" has spoken, somehow I know it's coming http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Well, Naginata can be very useful in offensive as well. Especially you want to take well-defended provinces (hill or river ones) heavily guarded by ranged units.

When used defensively, just as what theForce mentioned, you usually have to place them in front of guns. Hence they take casulties from friendly fire.

Now we see that Naginata units are actually none other than mobile sand bags. Let them get killed by the enemy or kill them with your own troops, and they will work wonders.

[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 12-28-2001).]

[BSM_Skkzarg]

ROFL Gothmog!! Fanatic? Maybe LOL.

As for the Armor question - its noted that it "weighed about as much as chain mail" - well - tell ya what - u put on a coat of chain mail thats sized to fit ya (I have worn an authentic mail shirt before so I am speaking from experience) and then grab a big ole 2 handed sword that weighs a LOAD and start swinging it. Tell me how long it takes before your fatigue level is VERY TIRED and EXHAUSTED! Now, before your done - add in the stress of combat, plus being made to run and march to even engage, and then tell me that No-Dachi wear Armor. They wear a couple of guards to (hopefully) protect their most vital areas, but they minimize weight since their weapon alone is enough to tire them out after a few minutes of lopping of heads.

Historically - Samurai wore a cousin of European Studded Leather armor. However, not every Samurai had the same thing. Those who needed to be free of weight did all they could to lessen their load. For No-dachi in the game Shogun: Total War, that means dropping their armor off at the nearest pawn shop, giving the proceeds to Buddha, asking for his blessing, and wading into battle with their two-handed blade flashing. Is it perfectly historical? Nope. Is it balanced for the game? Pretty well balanced indeed.

Monks in the game are documented as having little or no armor as well. Again, maybe not historically perfect, but heavily armored monks would have destroyed any play balance. Even without armor, the monks were overwhelming in the original S:TW. The unit balance has been tweaked tremendously overall, and that is a credit to both the developers, and the community who produced v1.02 for MI/WE.

In theory, one could wear plate armor, use a great shield, and attack with a bow and arrow or xbow or gun, or swing a 2 handed sword. Reality - doing so is either not possible because of the limits of the protection worn, as it impedes movement, or is so fatiguing of an action that it becomes impossible to continue it. After all, U hoist a 25lb. sword above your head when wearing 100+lbs of metal, wave the blade around for 5 minutes (combat often lasted MUCH longer) and then tell me how feasible wearing armor is with the greatsword. Then try firing a bow with some modicum of accuracy, or quickly reloading a xbow or appropriate era gunpowder weapon. Tell me you would want to go into combat like that.
I am not saying that the o-yoroi was not effective, but I am stating that it was not a universal piece of equipment for all samurai, depending on their preference of combat style and choice of weapon. It may have been widespread, and if I am mistaken in my view of it, consider then that every man in every unit in the game has one - and that it is considered "baseline" armor and thus has no major relevance on gameplay.

Remember that the way the game is set up is so that it is somewhat balanced - and that is so that gameplay is foremost. A good choice over history when making a game.

Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Irving]

BSM,

we aren't talking Europe here. Samurai did not carry great swords... A katana or tachi is not very heavy and if it has bo-hi lines, even less heavy. however, what is a Nodachi, is that historical? because i have never heard of them

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Irving,

Check out Tera's summary of No-Dachi at http://terazawa.totalwar.org/tactics/nd.htm and you will get an idea of what I am saying. They are there for game balance. They wield a 2 handed, heavy sword, similiar to a greatsword or claymore, simply with a "shogun" styling. I simply note that IF you were a warrior with a big sword you wouldnt wear much armor, and thus it is reasonable to say that a no-dachi would go light on the armor. As for the term itself - its properly done as nodachi - a 2 handed sword. Nodachi were the weapon of battlefield swordsman - as noted here:
http://www.simaqianstudio.com/historyarticles/seppuku/samuraiwarrior.html

The no-dachi in Shogun do have a historical counterpart, and thus the reasoning that they would be lighter armored than the majority of samurai.

BTW - this kind of convo is why I bloody come here - thanks!!!
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[This message has been edited by BSM_Skkzarg (edited 12-28-2001).]

[solypsist]

...some people just refuse to be convinced...

[edit: removed sarcastic finish]


[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 12-28-2001).]

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Soly,

We are not complaining, we are discussing whether or not its historically accurate. Granted - its fun either way. But knowledge is power, or so it is said.
MUHAHAHAHA

(If knowledge is power, then brains would be dynamite - and I wouldnt be able to blow my nose....)
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Yagyu Jubei]

I study Kendo and Iado. The light version of armor that we wear in kendo is enough of a distraction. It is by no means as heavy as yoroi. Our shinai are also by no means as heavy as a katana, let alone a nodachi. (check out 7 samurai....Mifune Toshirosan's character luggs a nodachi around).
I can't imagine wearing heavy armor and trying to use the nodachi. I have never put the yoroi on, but I do wear the kendo bogu 3 times a week for 12 years....
I love how often we say "the samurai did ----- or wore ---- or yadayadayada" it always makes me chuckle.
Here is a nice site that offers yoroi for sale as well as antique swords....etc.....

http://japanesesword.net/

[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 12-28-2001).]

[solypsist]

hey Yagyu, I studied Kendo in Boulder, CO earlier this year; you know a guy named Kwon? (seriously, I'm sure that;s like asking if anyone knows a 'Lee' in Hong Kong; I'm pretty sure his first name is Jeff or something...)

[Yagyu Jubei]

What a small world!!!!! Jeff Kwon is a good friend of mine and fellow dojo m8! I have known him since 1990!
Pls tell me your name or email it to me at ChrisS@ccmc-net.com

I will see him in the morning for our annual End of Year Special Training/ Sake fest!


[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 12-28-2001).]

[solypsist]

Jeff Kwon was my sensei in Boulder for a short while, then I moved up here and have been taking Kendo in Brooklyn.
I doubt he'd remember me, but when you do, tell him he was a great instructor and it was because of his teaching style that I have remained an avid Kendo student.

[Yagyu Jubei]

Please join our kendo thread here: http://pub24.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm3.showMessage?topicID=179.topic
I will certainly tell him that for you tomorrow, I am sure that he will be happy to hear this.

[BakaGaijin]

Wow. Iaito are much cheaper than I would have ever expected. =X

Maybe I'll take this as an excuse to find somewhere to learn Iaido. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Yagyu Jubei]

Go for it Baka! Be sure to get some good knee pads as well! Iado is a great art.