View Full Version : Appalled
Gregoshi
09-17-2003, 08:24
Can you be more specific about which topic in the Tavern? There are a number which look like they could be powder kegs.
You should have been around here the month before Gulf War II started back in February. Yikes, things were rather hot in the Tavern. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif
Gregoshi
09-17-2003, 09:15
I think your reaction was understandable. The post you reacted to illustrates that sometimes we get a little too caught up in debates that can't be won and then frustration sets in. We must all know when it is time to walk away from a discussion or accept that others will see things differently.
Wellington
09-17-2003, 11:15
Hi TO,
As Greg implied, I can assure you that, whatever post appalled you, if you delved a bit deeper into some threads you would be totally sickened at some of the comments made.
To be fair it's not just Americans who are capable of such posts. Many people can go way over the top when 'debating' issues that are extremely sensitive and close to the heart.
Just consider, it IS called The Tavern and pub talk can go a bit OTT at times
However, by your pointing the finger at a specific post by a specific American whilst not offering any indication as to what exactly appalled you, you are effectively tarring many American posters with a fog of suspician - which I find unfair.
Not that I wish to know what the post in question was, but I would respectfully suggest you wait until you are promoted and then respond to the post in question.
Welly
*REI*
Hai O'Jonin
I am very grateful for your post.
It represents the many small insults and injustices that Muslim members of this forum have to face here. Some people do not visit here anymore or do not post here becuase they are appalled at how a person can be allowed to write such abuse and get away with it for weeks and months. Others just don't say they are Muslim while it's quite obvious to Asians, that they are, they remain silent to avoid this abuse. It's not the first time.
There was a Hindu patron who I knew to visit these forums but quit coming here (sadly for us all) after what he perceived as a strong anti-Asian, anti-Muslim, bias by the moderators. He felt this way after he saw about 10 attacks and only one of them prosecuted under the forum regulations. This silence on the part of the moderators was to him as if the mods are standing by and let a grievious assault happen. If and when a mod intervened it was to support the anti-Eastern view by reprimanding the person who is the victim rather than the perpetrator.
Thankfully all of us have moved on and things are improving. I am just as guilty of insulting others. I apologise for anytime that I may have offended anyone. I too am ignorant but I like, I want and I strive to learn.
I am a MUSLIM, I am ethnically PAKISTANI, and if I am hated for my background so be it, if no one protects my rights, I'll DEFEND them myself, the very best I can. Remember Chushingura http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I do not have anything to hide, for my background. I do not have anything to be ashamed about. I've enjoyed a prestigious life, and I am gratefull for all that I have seen and learnt across the continents that I travelled. I have wronged no-one, ever and I can say this with 95% certainty, thank God for most can't.
It's quite a interesting balancing act for me, the extremists hate me and people like me because they say we appease the West by embracing Western values. Their counterparts in the West hate me because I have Asian Muslim background and they have their racial and post 9/11 fears and phobias about me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Very Amusing.
I am not religious but repeatedly I see things that are not correct in my understanding and usually (time permitting) I want people to understand me and others like me, and to know that we don't care any more than you do about violence, we just want to live our lives without being threatened on a national and individual level.
Thanks for those words Ojonin, they are much appreciated and I will remember them, always.
Doomo Arrigato Gozaimasu
*REI*
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/pakistanflagsig.jpg
mystic brew
09-17-2003, 11:58
i have only been here a short while.
But well done for standing up for what is right, O'Jonin
ShadesWolf
09-17-2003, 13:09
I would like to speak out as a moderator..........
I would like to appologies on behalf of my fellow mods if there are posts we have missed.
What I would like to say is these forums have a message facility that allows any patron to send a messgae to a moderator or to anybody else. This way if you find a post insulting, please send us a message to draw our attention to the post and the necessary actions can be taken.
Thankyou....
I an what i am and no one has the right to change that except me. [QUOTE]
The_Emperor
09-17-2003, 14:01
The Tavern can be very heated at times and the political debates can get furious...
The thing you have to remember about the Tavern is that you really need to have a thick skin to be in there.
Try to take it all with a pinch of salt, and remember that Seljuk, Wellington and a lot of other cool patrons also frequent the Tavern, and there are more patrons like them than unsavory members.
Don't let the views of a minority get you down... and if you have a problem, PM a MOD those guys are always very helpful http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Wellington
09-17-2003, 14:09
Hi TO,
First I am no Lord, and second I don't regard any Junior Patron to be lowly.
Whilst such words may appear to be somewhat patronising, I fully understand you appear to be truly offended by some comment, made by one of your fellow citizens, in a Forum to which you have no access.
I have no doubt you have raised some good points. I just don't believe your manner in raising such an issue in the 'Entrance Hall' is entirely appropiate. If your looking for warmth then, unfortunately, you won't find suchlike in many topics that are discussed in 'The Tavern'. That's precisely why it is named so. Then again, any forum is a little like a TV - you always hold the remote control; or, in this case, the mouse.
I fully understand you did not point any specific finger. That, IMHO, is why your post was inappropiate. In the UK we have a saying put up or shut up. In other words, say what you mean or say nothing. Much confusion and apparent innuendo can be avoided by such means.
As I've indicated, I don't necessarily disagree with your opinions. Merely the manner in which you chose to highlight them.
Welly
Wellington
09-17-2003, 14:23
Greg/Kukri/Shades,
Maybe, as moderators, you could consider the apparent benefits of allowing new patrons to post in The Tavern immediately (as well the Entrance Hall).
Why? Well, considering the objective of 'promotion' is to initially ascertain who is desirable for participation at The Org, and who is not, immediate access to the Tavern would appear to be condusive to such an evaluation.
We all have strong views on many subjects. Unlike most of The Orgs forums the Tavern is the one forum that is closest to being a moderated NG.
Why not let new people post there? After all, they certainly ar'nt going to upset most of the regular contributors in the Tavern, are they? It may also just provide an outlet for people who have opinions (unrelated to MTW) and wish to contribute there views.
Worth thinking about I feel.
Welly
Quote[/b] (ShadesWolf @ Sep. 17 2003,13:09)]I would like to speak out as a moderator..........
I would like to appologies on behalf of my fellow mods if there are posts we have missed.
What I would like to say is these forums have a message facility that allows any patron to send a messgae to a moderator or to anybody else. This way if you find a post insulting, please send us a message to draw our attention to the post and the necessary actions can be taken.
Thankyou....
No apology needed mate. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Have a drink on me, matter of fact here's a tumbler for all:
http://www.scotchwhisky.com/images/talisk2.jpg
The king o' drinks, as I conceive it,
Talisker, Islay or Glenlivit.
-Robert Louis Stevenson, 1880
Then again we could go the Suntory way (aged in Spanish sherry cask, distilled with Japanese meticulously):
http://www.suntory.co.jp/whisky/cask/yamazaki_e/products/img/de012_img01.jpg
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwars.net/forum/images/smiles/893drinkers-thumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwars.net/forum/images/smiles/893drinkers-thumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
BTW I think that's a great idea Welly. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Gregoshi
09-17-2003, 14:46
Two points:
1) If you ever have a problem with another patron, please contact a moderator via email or PM. If you have a problem with a moderator, please contact that moderator via email or PM if you feel comfortable doing so or if not, contact another moderator or Tosa and state your concern. I think any of us moderators will recognize their mistake if pointed out to them. Sometimes we can't see the errors of our ways until someone calls our attention to it. We are human to, despite whatever rumours you may have heard. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Sinan, your comments about another patron leaving because of a prejudice or anti-bias is quite disturbing. I wish someone had brought the issue to our attention.
2) Interesting point Welly and it certainly would flush out hot heads. I think I'd rather focus on someone's ability to discuss game issue since that is what we are really all about. We can always talk them into avoiding subjects that set them off (preferred method) or force the issue by keeping them out of the Tavern (last resort). Beside hot issues at the Tavern come and go. Those that join when the hot topic is your favourite colour will have it easy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
The Blind King of Bohemia
09-17-2003, 14:54
I don't go on the Tavern that often because when i do my comments aren't taken the way i typed them, if you know what i mean. I tend to keep most of my opinions to myself so i don't cause any offence. Seeing someones post isn't the same as talking to them and getting into heated debates is pointless because your just going round in circles, trying to convince the other they are wrong and you are right. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Gregoshi
09-17-2003, 15:02
You are wise TBKoB. Circles indeed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Wellington
09-17-2003, 15:17
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Sep. 17 2003,08:46)]I think I'd rather focus on someone's ability to discuss game issue since that is what we are really all about. We can always talk them into avoiding subjects that set them off (preferred method) or force the issue by keeping them out of the Tavern (last resort). Beside hot issues at the Tavern come and go. Those that join when the hot topic is your favourite colour will have it easy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Hi Greg,
Exactly
This is a site that is principally concerned with the CA TW series - and rightly so.
However, 'The Tavern' is a slightly tangential forum in that it allows individuals to offer viewpoints (often heated - and sometimes downright abusive) that do serve a purpose. It allows people to let off steam which, IMHO, is never a bad thing.
You and I both know that many people (not all) who chose to post in The Tavern are also extremely involved in other forums. The Tavern is merely a 'sideline' for many such members/patrons; but a very commendable 'sideline' in that we are all many-facited individuals, who have our own strongly felt opinions - totally unrelated to MTW.
You and I are also aware that many months ago (at the start of the 'Iraq war'http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif one or two individuals who were frequently posting in the Tavern, myself included, at that time chose to offer the same threads in the Entrance Hall. The amount of interest that was generated by 'newbies' to such political threads (such individuals having no access to The Tavern) was phenominal, and the opinions and arguments offered by such 'newbies' were enlightening. You and Kukri will be aware of the threads in question.
People who post in The Tavern are generally well aware of whom the 'opposition' is and what the subsequent arguments will be. There is little new blood simply because by the time new patrons have the opportunity to contribute to Tavern debates/arguments they are probably past caring as the posts they would have wished to contribute towards are long gone. I found this myself.
Think about it moderators (ask Tosainu's opinin).
Offering 'Newbies' immediate participation in the Tavern would benifit all - not least the regular posters who would then have to consider opinions from new faces who may hold diametrically opposed viewpoints.
What can 'The Org' lose by such a change in policy?
Welly
(BTW: to TO - I retract what I said earlier - maybe such a discussion in your thread is worthwhile as it may, just may, result in new individuals being offered the opportunity to have their say in matters totally unrelated to MTW - which I, for one, would welcome)
Wellington
09-17-2003, 15:48
Quote[/b] (TogakureOjonin @ Sep. 17 2003,09:01)]
Hi TO,
First, I can assure you that I don't take anyone seriously, unless, of course, they share my own viewpoints
Second, having participated in The Tavern on numerous occasions, my feathers are never ruffled
Third, I totally agree with you that the ability for new people to peruse the contents of threads in The Tavern, whilst being prevented from participating in such threads, is extremely frustrating (and I also found it infuriating when I was in your position - as we all have been).
Fourth, please do not refer to me as M'boy. I appreciate this may be an American colloquialism, depending on where you live in the US, but I'm no-ones boy and such a phrase, even if bandied outside of the USA, implies the same patronising and disrespectful attitude - as we Europeans are well aware.
Fifth, your attempt at 'English' sarcasm in this, your most recent post, belies your original posting. Whilst your original argument was both valid and interesting (even though I did'nt agree with the manner of such a posting) the conmtent of your subsequent posts appear to have disassociated you from the moral high ground that you had originally adopted.
Sixth, I would sincerely welcome the participation of yourself, and others, in The Tavern. As I said before, such participation would tend to clarify any new individuals true demeanor.
Welly
A.Saturnus
09-17-2003, 15:51
TogakureOjonin , I think the way you started this thread was entirely appropriate. I think I myself have spoken up on behave of manners often enough in the Tavern that I can consider myself a pseudo-moderator http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
However, we all struggle sometimes with the way to express our feelings and any good example may help us. That`s why I hope that you`ll contribute to the discussions in the Tavern once you have access to it (which, I believe, will be soon). When people talk about things that are important to them, it may get heated, and some cross a line. But I still consider these discussions as worthwhile and inspirating. The worst thing to happen is if the bad manners of some stop discussions from happening at all.
Wellington
09-17-2003, 16:59
Quote[/b] (TogakureOjonin @ Sep. 17 2003,10:24)]
ruffled, dandy English gentlemen, dude, off your pedastal, snooty Brit
'nuff said.
A.Saturnus
09-17-2003, 19:35
Nevermind TogakureOjonin, Welly`s beating up anyone, including developers and moderators (though he didn`t dare to try it on me, yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ), that`s just his way.
Ok then, C U in the Tavern, I`m always ready to discuss philosophical questions, we don`t have enough of them overthere.
ShadesWolf
09-17-2003, 20:00
Wolf walks over to an empty table.
GENTLEMEN please have a drink with me. I have a bottle of Gammel Dansk 38% proof, which my good friend Tarrak brought me as a gift, when he visited me in July.
I would like to share this with you my friends....
Wolf pures all his friends a drink, please drink my friends
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The_Emperor
09-17-2003, 20:04
*Enters the room, hangs up inquisitor hat and takes a seat at ShadesWolf's Table*
Cheers everyone http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Wellington
09-18-2003, 01:19
Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ Sep. 17 2003,13:35)]Nevermind TogakureOjonin, Welly`s beating up anyone, including developers and moderators (though he didn`t dare to try it on me, yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ), that`s just his way.
Hi Sat,
Problem is, your post's are generally so damn reasonable I've not yet found anything to have a whine about ...
... yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Hey, thats an idea http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif Maybe your posts are just TOO damn reasonable. Hhhmmm - food for thought http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Gregoshi
09-18-2003, 03:53
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Devastatin Dave
09-20-2003, 05:17
Happy to offend, it was worth the banning. Try to have a peaceful day...
Wellington
09-20-2003, 09:41
Quote[/b] (TogakureOjonin @ Sep. 20 2003,03:07)]This post is addressed specifically to Wellington:
After re-reading this thread, I realized that I misunderstood both what you were saying and the tone of what you were saying in your first and subsequent posts. As a result, I responded defensively, and ended up engaging in the same kind of insensitive cyclic banter that I found in the Tavern.
I looked at your profile information hoping to find your e-mail address, but it is private. Then I got to thinking that it would be better to post, as it will make my apology public, as it should be. I just hope you see this.
Welly, I am sorry for the things I said to you, and the manner in which I said them. I have been delving deep into the Guild, and it is evident that you are an extraordinary individual with exceptional talents, a shrewd mind, and a command of language that rivals anyone else here. I regret very much that I was so hasty when I read your posts, and that I subsequently reacted like a twit. Please accept my apologies.
Sincerely:
Hi TO,
Hey, no prob's at all You can obviously give as good as you get so I hope to see in The Tavern sometime. All reasonable Americans are espcially welcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
No need to apologise - I'm pretty thick skinned, and as I said I did'nt necessarilty disagree with your opinion.
Yeah, I remove my E-mail address address as a result of something that occured some time ago. I've 'reinstated' it now.
regards,
Welly
Knight_Yellow
09-20-2003, 09:51
Quote[/b] (daveinkorea @ Sep. 20 2003,05:17)]Happy to offend, it was worth the banning. Try to have a peaceful day...
there you are
so looks like youve been getting yellow carded.
ive just not taken part in the tavern for a week cos i know id get banned if i said what i realy wanted to say in half the threads.
instead ive just been playing some Desert combat and taking out my frustration that way.
Mount Suribachi
09-20-2003, 15:17
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Sep. 17 2003,14:46)]Sinan, your comments about another patron leaving because of a prejudice or anti-bias is quite disturbing. I wish someone had brought the issue to our attention.
Well, when I left last year for about 6 months, one of the main reasons was the anti-christian hostility I was receiving. The VI patch brought me back, but the bias is still there. Just look at the many religion threads that have sprung up in the last week or so. Patrons goading christians to post their beliefs so that they can mock them. Patrons freely admitting that they regard anything anti-christian as true and anything anti-other religions as hateful propaganda. Patrons stating (in more than one thread) that liberal left wing values are inherently morally and intellectually superior to any other beliefs (thought police anyone?). Christianity being blamed for the hole in the Ozone layer . I would say roughly that this board has a 3:1 left wing bias, similar to every other computer game fourm I've ever been on. Seljuk may complain about what he perceives as anti-muslim bias, but in reality he has the support of the majority of the board in his opinions - something I don't. I've seen posts by some of the muslims here and thought If I posted this, I'd get slaughtered. As I've posted elsewhere, America/Israel/Republicans/Christianity are blamed for everything that is, was and ever shall be wrong with this world. To say otherwise is to be in the minority. And for the record I am neither American or Republican - Labour, Labour, Lib Dem in 3 elections if you must know (tho I am one quarter Jewish http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ).
Trust me Seljuk, compared to Christian beliefs, I feel you get cut a helluva lot more slack. Now that's not to criticise Islam, but most patrons here are left wing/liberals which means any non-christian religion is seen as wonderful and we must be tolerant of it. So when you say that al-queda aren't true muslims everyone nods their heads and agrees. But when I say medieval Roman Catholicsm wasn't real christianity, I get jumped on and the inquisition etc are used as examples of how evil Christianity really is. It's very much a case of all opinions are equal, but some are more equal than others.
And this intolerance is what kept me away for a while and what still keeps me out of 90% of the threads in the Tavern, and now its spreading to the EH, aaaarggghhhh
Interesting point Welly and it certainly would flush out hot heads.
If you wanted to flush out hot heads then most of the regular contributors to the Tavern (of all political persuasions) should be banned/demoted on that principle. And what if they don't subscribe to the popular thought process? That America is the root of all evil and GWB is the son of satan? Would they still be looked on favourably for promotion?
What if a n00b came into the EH and started jumping on people like Wellington has in this thread? What chance of their promotion? Why is it OK for Welly to do it cos he's got 1000 posts?
GAH I come here to discuss MTW not argue about religion or politics. I'm angry at myself for succumbing to the temptation to read this thread and getting sucked in enough to post - anything remotely related to politics or religion etc (which is usually ends up as a torrent of abuse towards America and/or Christianity) I studioulsy avoid. SeljukSinan chooses to confront those he disagrees with head on - I try and avoid the arguments and confrontations. Everyones positions are so entrenched anyway, you can guess the content without reading it...I just wish I could go to the Tavern and read about stuff other than America being the root of all evil. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
One of the problems with having a logical mind is that it becomes hard to hold two mutually exclusive concepts in ones head without feeling some pain.
But really, there can be conflicting truths.
It is true, that The Org should not play host to any hateful idealogy. It is not The Org's role to provide a forum for bigotry or racism or ugliness.
But be fairly warned. These things exist. The solution is not to be appalled and run away. Reasonable people will see hate for what it is.
As resistance exercising can make your muscles and bones stronger, so can grappling with ideas that challenge your mind. The best response is to reply (perhaps reply only in your own mind) to the ugliness, shed light on it.
I say, if you don't like smoke and vomit and dank, don't go to the Tavern. Don't close the place down 'cause some can offend and others can be offended.
Go there and enjoy the good stuff. Better still, go there and take your torch. Don't burn the place down, just illuminate it.
respectfully
ichi
Quote[/b] ]But when I say medieval Roman Catholicsm wasn't real christianity,
basically, if you play with fire you are going to get burned, incitement cuts both ways man. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
and that info was from an atheist to boot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Wellington
09-20-2003, 19:57
Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ Sep. 20 2003,09:17)]What if a n00b came into the EH and started jumping on people like Wellington has in this thread? What chance of their promotion? Why is it OK for Welly to do it cos he's got 1000 posts?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Hi MS,
It may have escaped your notice, but six months ago I also received a ban for comments I made in the Tavern at the start of the Iraq war - probably justifiably. I was consequently demoted and also restricted to 1 post per day. This lasted for a few months.
So, if your trying to imply favouratism, then sorry - just doesn't wash.
As for jumping. The only jumping I do is with ...
... well, thats none of your business.
Welly
Mount Suribachi
09-20-2003, 20:15
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Sep. 20 2003,19:57)]It may have escaped your notice, but six months ago I also received a ban for comments I made in the Tavern at the start of the Iraq war - probably justifiably. I was consequently demoted and also restricted to 1 post per day. This lasted for a few months.
So, if your trying to imply favouratism, then sorry - just doesn't wash.
As a matter of fact it had escaped my notice...that was probly during my time away. Insinuation of favouritism withdrawn. You have been pretty harsh in some posts recently though.
Quote[/b] ]basically, if you play with fire you are going to get burned, incitement cuts both ways man
but when you're getting beaten over the head with the inquisition and crusades sticks, which apall me as much as the next man and have no NT basis, you expect me to defend the medieval church?
Quote[/b] ]but when you're getting beaten over the head with the inquisition and crusades sticks, which apall me as much as the next man and have no NT basis, you expect me to defend the medieval church?
by the sound of it they thought that you had signed on for the whole package deal and hence treated you as such. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
unfortunately. stupidity and ignorance are equal oppurtunity employers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
i assume NT basis means no theological basis?
Wellington
09-20-2003, 22:30
Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ Sep. 20 2003,09:17)]GAH I come here to discuss MTW not argue about religion or politics. I'm angry at myself for succumbing to the temptation to read this thread and getting sucked in enough to post - anything remotely related to politics or religion etc (which is usually ends up as a torrent of abuse towards America and/or Christianity) I studioulsy avoid. SeljukSinan chooses to confront those he disagrees with head on - I try and avoid the arguments and confrontations. Everyones positions are so entrenched anyway, you can guess the content without reading it...I just wish I could go to the Tavern and read about stuff other than America being the root of all evil. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Hi MS,
I've just re-read this portion of your post.
I agree than many peoples positions in the Tavern are well entrenched.
I also agree that it can be hard, if you have strong feelings regarding some issue and also have the ability to post in The Tavern, not to espouse those viewpoints.
Don't be annoyed at that you've gotten sucked in to issues that are prevelent in manner peoples minds these days. We are all multi-facited people. MTW is a Game. Politics are reality.
You have to consider that there are 3 types of people who participate within The Org -
a) those who post only in the Tavern and have absolutely no interest in MTW as a game/hobby
b) those who post predominately in other forums, and are generally more interested in MTW rather than politics, but feel the need to offere their views on an occasional or regular basis
c) those who are interested solely in MTW - and never post in the Tavern
However, the fact the Org is a Total War site BUT offers such a forum for politically related opinion/debate is commendable - but should, IMHO, only be seen as a sideline to the main purpose of the Org.
If, however, this sideline is to be effective I would argue once more that new blood is required and such new blood who have recently joined The Org and wish to offer their views in this 'sideline forum' should not be prevented from doing so ASAP - should they chose to.
Otherwise, what is the point in the Org offering such a forum, that is totally unrelated to MTW, that is only accessable by established members of the Org, that has a hard-core of posters that have fixed views and therefore is a Forum that consequently offers little in the way of fresh opinion?
Welly
Quote[/b] ]a) those who post only in the Tavern and have absolutely no interest in MTW as a game/hobby
why do they bother coming to this site if they don`t play the game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
are they just trolling?
Wellington
09-20-2003, 23:32
Quote[/b] (katar @ Sep. 20 2003,16:47)]
Quote[/b] ]a) those who post only in the Tavern and have absolutely no interest in MTW as a game/hobby
why do they bother coming to this site if they don`t play the game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
are they just trolling?
Form your own conclusion, but do check out the 15-20 or so most proliferent posters in The Tavern (who have very entrenched views) and then do a search in the Org for other posts they make in other MTW-related forums.
The results will be revealing
Portuguese Rebel
09-21-2003, 00:32
Quote[/b] ]Well, when I left last year for about 6 months, one of the main reasons was the anti-christian hostility I was receiving. The VI patch brought me back, but the bias is still there. Just look at the many religion threads that have sprung up in the last week or so. Patrons goading christians to post their beliefs so that they can mock them. Patrons freely admitting that they regard anything anti-christian as true and anything anti-other religions as hateful propaganda. Patrons stating (in more than one thread) that liberal left wing values are inherently morally and intellectually superior to any other beliefs (thought police anyone?).
Where did you find this? The religion threads here at the org, as far as i know (and i know them since i'm always there) have not insulted any religion, dispite disagreements amongst the patrons. Nowhere to may knowlage have christians been insulted or mocked over their beliefs. Threads have remained civil (surprinsingly i might say). What is this anti-christian bias? What is it about? It's because a large number of patrons are non theists? Is that a bias? I have not seen you contribute much with your ideas to change that.
Quote[/b] ]Patrons freely admitting that they regard anything anti-christian as true and anything anti-other religions as hateful propaganda.
Anti-christian? Where is it?
Quote[/b] ] would say roughly that this board has a 3:1 left wing bias,
This is not an election. What does this have to do with you not posting? You feel intimidated and you don't post your opinion? There are several right wing patrons in the Tavern that post very frequently, they can keep you company if you don't like to be alone.
Portuguese Rebel
09-21-2003, 00:39
Quote[/b] (katar @ Sep. 20 2003,16:47)]
Quote[/b] ]a) those who post only in the Tavern and have absolutely no interest in MTW as a game/hobby
why do they bother coming to this site if they don`t play the game? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
are they just trolling?
I think most have started by playing the game and then discovered the Tavern. That was what happend to me, at least. I liked the game, a lot. Then i went to modding the game and now i mainly post in the Tavern, although i still check other forums. But none of the dudes in the Tavern are Trolling, because they behave (well, most of the times). I think we can say that the Tavern has transcended the game altogether, at least until the arrival of RTW. By the way, where is my patch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
Don't worry about Welly, TO, he beats up on everybody. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Urban Legend
09-21-2003, 05:03
PR, there are anti-Christian comments here as well as anti-other religion comments.
Some by me, hurray
Islam and Christianity are most hated, so in all fairness lets bash Buddhism next. We can also bash Atheism and agnostics too. If everyone is bashed and mocked then its fair.
Christains are idiots who follow a 2000 year old book, oppress women, make marriages bad because they want sex to be restricted to after marriage.
Muslims cut clits, oppress women, are 25% terrorists and love suicide bombs.
Atheists and Agnositcs can all go and burn in hell.
Hurray
And in your own insults to other religions and get banned
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
I have had friends from all over the world. Including many from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Iran, and Iraq. What strikes me the most is that people are essentially the same despite differing cultures and religions. what matters is what is in their hearts. Judging people any other way is just ignorance. You will find good and bad everywhere. When I was young I wanted to change the world and bring peace. But that is not possible. I cannot argue anyone to change. All I can do is be at peace in my life and show that peace to others. Alot of people these days are so full of pain and hatred they cannot see the truth.
I personally will say that I have enjoyed this community even tho at times you deal with hatred...please dont leave because of it.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Dimeolas
Gregoshi
09-21-2003, 07:02
1) I'll repeat, if you feel a post has violated forum rules (http://www.totalwar.org/site/Rules.shtml), please contact a moderator. It is best to contact one (or more) from the forum containing the violating post, but any staff member is fair game.
2) This thread should prompt all to indulge in a little self-reflection. How have I been handling these types of discussions? Do my posts discuss/debate or do they attack/insult? Often, the attack/insult type post is the easiest to write. Unfortunately, they also deflect attention from your point and direct focus on the attacks instead. However, with a little thought, you can pretty much make the same point, but in a more positive way that encourages discussion rather than counter-attack.
3) Regarding Tavern access for Junior Patrons, I overlooked one other reason for denying them access. As was stated by PR, the attraction to these forums by all was due to the TW games. Some no longer play, but still post in the Tavern. However, if we open up the Tavern, that could no longer be the case. Since many of you were not around 2-3 years ago (prior to the whole Junior Patron system), we had a very ugly situation happen on these boards. A rather heated thread was started about gun control. The word of this thread found its way to a group of people that don't play TW games or even knew what they were. However, they were very much interested in the gun control issue. We had a number of people in this group, joining our forums to carry on the debate. They started numerous threads on the topic and this many-headed monster was taking over the Tavern. We don't want that to ever happen again. People come here for the game first and Tavern-talk second. It is the TW gamers/modders that we want here - not special interest groups spamming our forums with their particular view on the world. Sure we have our share of unhinged loons with their own special outlook on things, but they are our unhinged loons. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif With the Entrance Hall we can better contain such foreign (non-TW) influence upon our forums.
4) As a public service TV commercial for drinking says, Know when to say 'when'. Learn to recognize when further contributions to a particular topic are pointless wastes of time - and then stop posting and reading those topics. The stop part is the hardest thing to do. If you need practice, go back to some old hot topic and read it from the beginning. Try to indentify at what point the topic became a lost cause for all parties. There almost always is one. :rolleyes
5) I don't know if I had a 5th point, but my brain's numbness and exhaustion have commandeered it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Mount Suribachi
09-21-2003, 10:08
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Sep. 21 2003,07:02)]this many-headed monster was taking over the Tavern
Do you not think that the whole America/Bush/Islam is evil argument is taking over the Tavern right now?
I went there yesterday and there were 15 (fifteen ) threads on said subject on the front page, none more than 24 hours since last post. Threads about anything other than this subject just drop like stones. I started a thread about KOTOR on there, a few hours later it was on page 2 Surely the OT forum, which is what the Tavern is, should be about OT subjects *other* than politics? When one subject begins to dominate a sub-forum, it says to me that that subject deserves its own sub-forum.
What chance of a new sub-forum for political discussions and letting the Tavern revert to a place where you can talk about other games or sport or tell jokes? Maybe it will attract more people than the dozen or so who currently argue unceasingly around the same topics over and over and over...
Wellington
09-21-2003, 10:28
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Sep. 21 2003,01:02)]5) I don't know if I had a 5th point, but my brain's numbness and exhaustion have commandeered it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
H Greg,
Wasn't your fifth point -
5) and please minimise the length of your posts in the Entrance Hall, as we poor moderators are compelled to read ever single word of this crap ...
... often leading to brain numbness and exhaustion.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Konnichiwa,
Quote[/b] ] by Mount Suribachi
When one subject begins to dominate a sub-forum, it says to me that that subject deserves its own sub-forum.
This has been raised a few times, but was never done. Looks like the politic section became more dominant or something.
I agree: when politics overshadow all other subjects in the 'anything' goes forum, while there's interest in the other things then it may be about time to create a new forum.
o_loompah_the_delayer
09-21-2003, 11:41
Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ Sep. 17 2003,05:51)]I am a MUSLIM, I am ethnically PAKISTANI, and if I am hated for my background so be it, if no one protects my rights, I'll DEFEND them myself, the very best I can. Remember Chushingura http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I've enjoyed a prestigious life, and I am gratefull for all that I have seen and learnt across the continents that I travelled.
A bit off topic, but Hi Seljuk
-Pakistani descent
-likes the Turks
-pretty good at fighting
-perhaps you also like those little chinese dogs?
you arent related to one Gen. P. Musharraf ar you? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Wellington
09-21-2003, 11:57
Quote[/b] (TosaInu @ Sep. 21 2003,05:26)]This has been raised a few times, but was never done. Looks like the politic section became more dominant or something.
I agree: when politics overshadow all other subjects in the 'anything' goes forum, while there's interest in the other things then it may be about time to create a new forum.
But the flip side of the coin is that people will discuss whatever interests them.
Many of us post threads in the various MTW forums that attract little interest. Thats normal.
Any attempt to create two discussion forums, a political one and a none-political one, seems doomed to failure as sooner or later you'll find cross-overs.
The fact that the Tavern has so many long Political type threads is not, IMHO, at the expense of none-political threads. It's merely a result of the fact that people will discuss whatever they wish to discuss, and ignore threads that are of no, or little, interest to them.
Konnichiwa Wellington san,
That's correct and that is the main reason that it hasn't been splitted before. But it seems that there are far more (and 'heavier'http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif political topics than before.
Many of us post threads in the various MTW forums that attract little interest. Thats normal.
True, but it's not usual to be swamped within 30 minutes :-) in the low flow forums.
Any attempt to create two discussion forums, a political one and a none-political one, seems doomed to failure as sooner or later you'll find cross-overs.
Moderators can move topics to a more relevant forum.
The fact that the Tavern has so many long Political type threads is not, IMHO, at the expense of none-political threads. It's merely a result of the fact that people will discuss whatever they wish to discuss, and ignore threads that are of no, or little, interest to them.
Sure, discuss whatever you like as long as it's family friendly. I guess it's a bit of a visibility problem for the other topics. I never was, nor will be a OT regular, but I recall that there was a huge interest in the other topics in the past. It may be rowing against the stream for those and then just give up?
Mount Suribachi san is not the first to call for a seperation. We should seriously look into this.
You mean the Gull terr o_loompah san?
Portuguese Rebel
09-22-2003, 02:40
Quote[/b] ]The word of this thread found its way to a group of people that don't play TW games or even knew what they were. However, they were very much interested in the gun control issue. We had a number of people in this group, joining our forums to carry on the debate. They started numerous threads on the topic and this many-headed monster was taking over the Tavern.
On gun control? That's weird I mean, i could understand other subjects, like abortion or something, but i did not know that gun control would have such a return in new patrons http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Quote[/b] ]Mount Suribachi san is not the first to call for a seperation. We should seriously look into this.
I myself would be against it, and i think most of the guys from the tavern would also be against it. One of the great things is the multiple discussions on whatever subject, just like in a real Tavern. Some threads will always atract more attention than others, that's the way it is, but the Tavern works in waves, like the night news. One day it's politics, the other is sports, the next the babe threads rule it (right soly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ).
Gregoshi
09-22-2003, 04:50
Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Sep. 21 2003,04:28)]Wasn't your fifth point -
5) and please minimise the length of your posts in the Entrance Hall, as we poor moderators are compelled to read ever single word of this crap ...
... often leading to brain numbness and exhaustion.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
That was it Welly You nailed it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif There are some days my eyes go blurry and my head is swimming. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
As for the Tavern, the discussion topics vary over time. Sometimes the Tavern has all the heated discussions and other times it is all light topics. With the world situation being what it has been since the beginning of the year, the topics have been of the heavy nature for an unusually long period of time. Maybe we just need a back room forum we can open up for the serious discussion overflow. I do agree though that there will eventually be a blurring of lines between the two forums.
I'd better shutup now and start reading... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
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