Advice on Turkish Units

[Hurin_Rules]

Just started a Turkish campaign on hard on high period. The units are so different from the Catholic and Byzantine ones, I wondered how others play the Turks, and what units they think are the best. As far as I can tell, I'm leaning towards this:

LI: Janissary Archers (until I build up to them, I am using Turkoman foot, Futuwas and Murabitin.

MI: Ghazis

HI: Janissary Heavy Infantry

LC: Horse Archers

MC: Turkoman Horse

HC: Ghulams, Armenian HC

Anti-Cavalry: Those camel warrior guys.

Spearmen: Saracen Infantry.


Anything I've missed? I seem at the moment to lack some good Heavy Infantry; I'm building up to JHI but it will be a while. Is there anything I can use in the meantime?

Thx in advance

[Hurin_Rules]

P.S. Anyone else think the Mamelukes got shortchanged? They put the boots to the crusaders and were world-reknowned as dual purpose cavalry.

[Shahed]

You can have a look at this thread... (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=10420) and this one. (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=6420;hl=insult).

The forst one deals with Turksih Cavalry armies (basically) the second one deals with inaccuracies of Muslim units in MTW.

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Spino]

All the Muslim factions were shortchanged with Russian/Novgorod not far behind.

[NewJeffCT]

Futuuwa's are a must. They have bows and are good in hand to hand.

And I thought somebody had done an extended study and found that Turcoman Foot are the best archers in the game?

I'm playing the Turks now (2nd time in SP... I hated them early on the first time I played them, but now I love them.)

I've yet to fully utilize Jannisary Inf or Archers yet, though. My JHI have really chewed up Mongol Heavy Cavalry, though. I'm just waiting to lay into the Byzantine Kats sooner or later.

[Hurin_Rules]

Thanks for the info It helped a lot.

BTW, does anyone use Sipahi's? Should I bother with them?

[Si GeeNa]

Hi Hurin

I think your classing of the Turkish hybrids as LI (I assume this means Light Inf) to be off the mark. If by this method of classing, you avoid sending them to the thick of the fray... you will miss out the true capabilities of the Turkish Hybrids.

Futuwas, Jan Inf, Ottoman Inf can typically account for themselves in a skirmish fight. Dont set them up against Heavy Inf, or at least give them a fighting chance with a flank attack.

I say, send them in when the enemy comes too close.

Send them in when they have loosed all their arrows.

I personally dont favour Saracen over Muwahids. This is purely a preference for Morale and Speed over Bulk. If your usage of Spears is merely as Anti-Cav, Saracen should acquit themselves pretty well. But keep their flanks protected.

I'm not too sure of your use of Med Cav. Turcoman Horse are not really such multi-role types. They are not the Mamluke HA, Faris or Szekely. However, they do H2H better than basic HA, thus send them against other HA can keep other HA's busy.

I had one particular campaign where i started the Turks in Early, Expert. I used an essentially Cav army. 12 units of HA (mixed Turcoman and Basic HA) and 2-3 units of Armenian Cav. Battles against the Byz and Egyptian were the main staples i fought. The composition worked very well against the Byz. Their troops are often slower than the Cav employed. Thus i annilathed their armies in the field with relative ease.

Dont expect a battle of fixed lines. Fight the battle everywhere. By sending your HAs in, you pull the slower Byz units all over the place. Use your superior speed to move Armenian Cav to the right places, isolate and hit them hard. Battles might seem confusing but ultimately, rewarding... You really have to work

Against the Egyptians, same as above. Egyptian troops typically are faster but wear less to no armour. They are very suseptible to the HAs.

One impt word of caution... This composition of army is very much superior to almost all but the Mongol GH. They are almost replicated in the Mongol GH. Mongol HC fight like my Armenian HC, only better. Mongol HA fight like my Turcoman, and only better. Thus in the GH, i find a similar enemy force compostion to mine.

I lost big ones and won big ones against them.

Pardon the spelling mistakes and typos. I'm too enthusiastic in proclaiming my praise for the Turkish units.

As an aside, i dont play JHI. I dont know why yet, i just like Cav types. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[A.Saturnus]

For a heavy inf, untill I get JHI, I use Sar Inf. They are tough enough to give anyone but VGs and Foot Knights a hard time. Their morale is a problem, but if you build them in a province with mosque and ribat, they shouldn`t run to easily.
When you have JHI, you are unstopable anyway.

[Hurin_Rules]

Thanks That's just the type of advice I needed.

I've been playing my Turks, and they are doing well. Some things I've noticed:

Ghazis rock Cheap, fast, good morale and they can chew through just about any unit you put in front of them.

When fighting the Horde, I adopted counter-cavalry tactics. I anchored my line with Saracen Infantry and put archers (and some Longbowmen and Pavise Arbalesters I was lucky enough to find as mercenaries) out front. I had several units of Ghazis (and a unit of Halberdiers mercenaries) and Heavy Cavalry (Druzhina and Armenian) for flanking. Also, I sent out a screen of 4-6 units of Turkoman HA and regular HA to tire and harass the Horde as it approached my main force. This worked exceptionally well. My horse archers really did a number on his Heavy Cavalry, and they could withdraw in time for me to get other units into play before the main attack struck. When it did, there were some tense moments as the Horde HC smashed into my line. But with a five-star general holding them together, they held up, and when I sent in my Ghazis and Halberdiers against his HC, and then flanked his infantry with my HC, it became a massacre. Once his general was dead and his initial wave destroyed, it was relatively easy to keep the subsequent waves off.

So, in short, I think Ghazis rule. I'm almost ready to make Janissary inf, but for now Ghazis are great. I advise counter-cavalry tactics and units against the Horde. The Horde is fearsome but it doesnt really have the Heavy Infantry to bowl you over. If you can hold it at bay with Spears or Saracen Infantry, you can roll up its flanks or isolate its infantry (or cavalry).

[Revenant69]

Hehe, in my latest battle against the Mongols in Khazaar 5 units of JHI have accounted for 2007 kills/captures, which is rougly 25% of the Mongol casualties. If you can get them - you dont need too many of them to hold the horde off http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (NewJeffCT @ Sep. 17 2003,15:10)]And I thought somebody had done an extended study and found that Turcoman Foot are the best archers in the game?
Yes... well... They are not better at killing the enemy with bows.
But They are better at all the supporting issues. They have good armour, they have a shield, they have a loose formation and they are fast. They can defeat any other archers, besides Longbows, in a duel of direct archery.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Hurin_Rules @ Sep. 17 2003,14:33)]Just started a Turkish campaign on hard on high period. The units are so different from the Catholic and Byzantine ones, I wondered how others play the Turks, and what units they think are the best. As far as I can tell, I'm leaning towards this:

LI: Janissary Archers (until I build up to them, I am using Turkoman foot, Futuwas and Murabitin.

MI: Ghazis

HI: Janissary Heavy Infantry

LC: Horse Archers

MC: Turkoman Horse

HC: Ghulams, Armenian HC

Anti-Cavalry: Those camel warrior guys.

Spearmen: Saracen Infantry.


Anything I've missed? I seem at the moment to lack some good Heavy Infantry; I'm building up to JHI but it will be a while. Is there anything I can use in the meantime?

Thx in advance
I kind of disagree with your classification.

I think it might lead you into some misconception that might hinder you from using those units to their full potential.

My personnal classification;

hybryd / main infantry; futuwa, Janissary Infantry, possibly Otto inf with valor bonus and a good general. Use all those as CMAA/ FMAA for a catholic.

Missile; in early, futuwa or turco inf. Later, possibly x bow, if you really want to go throught a missile phase...

Spear; Murabutin. Saracen inf if you can secure valor bonus or good gen. Important in early, later, you'll have JHI... Same use as Chiv searg for cath.

Shock; ghazi. Same use as gallow or highlander for a catholic, but with a better morale.

Anti cav; JHI. That's really what they are. To use them against CMAA is a potential loss of fl. Sure, in SP, they are likely to win, but given the cost difference, they better win. Their real function is anti cav. Think billmen or swiss halbardier. But good ones http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Horse Archer/ Light cav; Turco poney. No real equivalent for cath factions.

Medium cav; AHC is your best bet; low building requirement and valor bonus. Why would you bother building anything else? Not as good as cath heavy cav though...

Heavy cav; hummm let's say none http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Louis,

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Hurin_Rules @ Sep. 17 2003,13:33)]LI: Janissary Archers (until I build up to them, I am using Turkoman foot, Futuwas and Murabitin.)
In my experience: janissary archers are useless. According to the description they are supposed to youse fast x-bows, however, if one looks in the unit_build file, they actually use short-bows in the game (the same as vanilla archers). On top of that, they do not have any reasonable melee stats like other, more capable turkish hybrids. I'd lean towards using janissary infantry (not the heavy one) for missile function in the High-period Turkish armies: much better melee stats.

[Crash]

Quote[/b] (Si GeeNa @ Sep. 17 2003,23:48)]I personally dont favour Saracen over Muwahids. This is purely a preference for Morale and Speed over Bulk. If your usage of Spears is merely as Anti-Cav, Saracen should acquit themselves pretty well. But keep their flanks protected.
Saracen have occasionally disappointed me when they broke because of their low morale, that's why I also favored the Muwahid. The speed and high morale of the Muwahid make them a more versatile unit on the battlefield. But I discovered that the Saracen can be like the Rock of Gilbraltar given a proper deploment.

I generally use one or two units of Saracen to anchor my flanks or center. They are particularly effective defending against calvary as long as their flanks are protected. The Muwahid are fast enough to react to a flanking calvary attack on the Saracen, so using them in combination can be quite effective on defense.

The Muwahid in combination with the Ghazi infantry can deliver a speedy flanking attack, while the Saracen hold the center of the line. It's quite fun to attack and defend with the fast Muslim units when you can take advantage of their speed against slow moving Christian infantry and calvary, especially in the desert.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Crash @ Sep. 19 2003,12:05)]Saracen have occasionally disappointed me when they broke because of their low morale, that's why I also favored the Muwahid. The speed and high morale of the Muwahid make them a more versatile unit on the battlefield. But I discovered that the Saracen can be like the Rock of Gilbraltar given a proper deploment.
Muwahid drop like flies against any decently armored unit with good attack stats. Saracen on the other hand have excellent defense.

On another note, the stats of the unit called "Saracen" in MTW are EXACTLY the same (look in the unit_build text file) as the stats of Chivalric Sergeants available to Catholic factions in the High period...

[econ21]

I tried Muwahid foot in an early Almo campaign and was very disappointed. The 60 unit size is a big deal against cav, as they tend to lap around the flanks given half a chance. The speed was not such a big deal - it can't match cav anyway. I ended up preferring the Nubians for their 100 unit size, even though man-to-man they are clearly inferior. This may not be so relevant to the Turks though, as I could rely on AUM for any anti-infantry duties.

Saracens, as Kristaps says, are Chiv Sergeants and getting them in early means that initially, and perversely, the Turks (and Egyptians) can field more heavily armoured infantry than the Catholics Saracens/CS can stand up to knights - it's more touch and go with unarmoured types of spearmen.

[Wellington]

I don't know about High period, but in Early whenever I play the Turks I always adopt the following strategy -

- get all 4 provinces up to 80% farmland
- then concentrate on all 4 provinces producing Saracen Infantry with good shields
- then build up the Horse infrastructures in each province
- end up producding just 2 troop types (SaracenInfantry and GhulumCavaly)
- when you have sufficient troops take out the Byz empire first
- make sure you retain enough troops (2,000+) for the appearence of the Golden Horde
- after the Byz and Golden Horde have been dealt with and you hold Constantinople and Kazir in strength, take out the Egyptions
- then build a strong Navy, using the coastal Egyption provinces and Constantinople
- keep building up Rum until you have JanissaryInfanmtry
- take out the Hungarians next and build up the 2 Hungarian provinces with weapons bonuses (iron), which should alsop gove you a range of other useful units (Alabasters, light cavalry)

After that it should be plain sailing. Works almost every time for me.

[Shahed]

I have a replay of a Late Era Turk Army. The battle is extremely one sided but may be of interest to you, it's available for download in a zip file below:

Turkish Late Era Replay (http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/downloads/mtwreplays/LateEraTurkArmy1.zip)

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Nooo must not watch Seljuk's replay.....bad man tells how to tear precious Byzantines apart. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Shahed]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Well Byz is easy to play in comparison with Turks (I think). In that replay it's basically using Turkish army as Catholic with JHI and Khwar (khwar means homeless/destitute http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif in my language) Cav. I use the Ottoman Infanty and Janissary Infantry as missile troops BUT also ready to engage in hand to hand if necessary. In this replay the Byzantines have a low valor army and a pathetic King vs the Turks 6 star general with some positive V&V's.

Hey Katank I'll start up a Byzantine Campaign eventually, and I think you can use Byzantine Cavalry + Katank combination in all cav Byzantine armies.

Should be devastating.

[Shahed]

In that replay though the Turk army is as follows:

-1 Sipahi of the Porte valor 8
-1 Sipahi of the Porte valor 4-5
-2 Ottoman Infanty from Rum valor 5
-4 Janissary Infantry valor 4
-4 JHI valor 3 (2 of them gain 3 valor during battle to become valor 6 one manages to get charged in the rear by Pronoi)
-4 Khwar Cav valor 3

So that I think is as heavy as it should get. The JI and OI provide missile plus melee units. JHI for anti-cav and Khwar Cav for frontal, flank, rear cav duty. No Turcoman though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ Sep. 20 2003,17:36)]Hey Katank I'll start up a Byzantine Campaign eventually, and I think you can use Byzantine Cavalry + Katank combination in all cav Byzantine armies.

Should be devastating.
You'll find that you can do without the Kataphraktoi, Pronoai aided by Lancers and Byzantine Cavalry along with a couple of Horse Archers are just as devastating, but offer more mobility against heavily armoured Catholic armies as well as swift moving Eastern skirmishers.

[Hurin_Rules]

Hi Seljuk, thx for the replay.

BTW, you seem to use some Turkish units that I haven't really used yet, and I would be interested to hear why you use them:

Sipahi of the Porte
Ottoman Infantry (Why not just stick with Janissaries?)
Khwarazmian cav (Better than Armenian HC?)

[Hurin_Rules]

Oh, one more question for ya Seljuk:

When the battle started, you had your army deployed on the hill. After it started, you moved your whole army in formation to your right, and maintained it's facing straight ahead. How did you do this? When I try to move my army, unless i am going straight ahead, they all pivot in the direction I send them. How do you get your army to move but still maintain the original formation AND facing?

Cheers

[Cebei]

On behalf of Seljuk Sİnan,

Sipahis of the Porte: Late era Ottoman elite cavalry. Ottoman prince and sultans ride with Sipahis of the Porte, they are aremed with bows and excellent in melee.

Ottoman infantry: Weaker than the janissaries. Have bows and axes. Made obsolete by Janissaries.

Khwarazmian cavalry: Khwarazmians are one of the extended khanates of the Mongol Empire. They are far better than Armenian heavy cavalry. They are very powerful.

As for second question; you can face a formation to a specific location by choosing a unit and dragging the mouse horizontally. You will see a decoy of the unit that shows the direction and formation of the unit.

[Shahed]

Hello Peeps

Well I try to play with the units that I enjoy playing with, some are simply prestige or "look good" units. Indeed there are better units to use, maybe, but to me a general's unit should (if possible) reflect the military hierarchy. What are the chances that a Turcoman if he proves his worth as a commander, will NOT get a fief and be nominated as a Sipahi. Pretty slim. In that replay you saw an all elite army, this is naturally far from historical reality.

I try to have Elite units for generals, in Late my preference is for Ottoman Sipahi, Ghulam Bodyguards. However like you saw in the replay the general was a SoP (Sipahi of the Porte), that's becuase you don't have a choice in choosing the unit of the Princes, in Late era they will ALL be Sipahi of the Porte. In that replay this was an ex-prince, so he commanded SoP.

This is highly subjective selection criteria and does not necessarily have a basis in stats or performance. In SP however almost any normal unit can be good since it can gain valor. It just needs to be matched against the right unit.

In MP it's different since the valor cap is 4, you can't really do anything about it. In SP your Ottoman Sipahi (produced with +2 valor in Tripoli) may be valor 6 with a good title, a good virtue, and some combat experience. A Valor 6 Ottoman Sipahi should be able to stand up to most enemies, and to me, I prefer to take at least 2-3 Ottoman Sipahi instead/or with AHC (Armenian Heavy Cavalry) for the historical factor, and the "coolness". http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Even in real life I like to do things which suit my flavor so I may not necessarily be rational in everything, and I HATE rationalising EVERYTHING. In my view some things should be subjective, NOT all of course. But certainly in a game I want MY kind of armies and I'll make em win (hopefully).

Having said all that I guess it's time to see if there really is a big difference in the 3 cav types for Single Player Campaign.

----------
Stats for SoP at valor 0(from Clan Beserk (http://shogun.cafe24.com/medieval/)):

Speed: March 9 Run 20 Charge 22
Charge: 4
Attack: 3
Defence: 6 $1
Armor: 7 $1
Morale: 6 Elite Unit, Disciplined

Valor Bonus: Tripoli +1 Valor
Required: Master_Horse_Breeder, Master_Bowyer
Support Costs: 21
$ = Shield

Stats for Armenian Heavy Cavalry:

Speed: March 9 Run 20 Charge 22
Charge: 8
Attack: 3
Defence: 3 $1
Armor: 4 $1
Morale: 4 Elite Unit

Valor Bonus: Armenia +1 Valor
Required: Horse_Breeder + Armenia, Rum, Lesser_Armenia + MUSLIM
Support Costs: 12
$ = Shield

Stats for Khwar Cavalry:

Speed: March 9 Run 20 Charge 22
Charge: 6
Attack: 3
Defence: 5 $1
Armor: 7 $1
Morale: 4 Elite Unit

Required: Master_Horse_Breeder, Master_Spearmaker
Support Costs:14
$ = Shield

----------

So what's the interpretation based on these stats from Clan Beserk?

-All 3 Cav types have the same speed
-AHC and KC are 40 man units, Sop is 20 man (default size)
-AHC has strongest charge, then KC, then SoP
-All 3 have same attack of 3
-SoP has the best defence, then KC, then AHC
-SoP + KC have best armor, then AHC
-SoP has best morale, AHC +KC are same (morale 4)
-SoP is most expensive to support, then KC, then AHC
-Then there's the Elite status shared by all, cept SoP also "disciplined" (for what it's worth)

Now from this most people would say AHC is the best value for money, and they are probably right. If I was going to play a Multiplayer game with 15,000 Florins for the entire army to spend, I'd most certainly go with AHC. Among the obvious, a more subtle benefit the AHC have is that they should tire less fast than the KC and SoP since they have lower armor rating. They will also die faster mind you, under missile fire.

However in SP, I won't use AHC in large numbers after High Era. I have Ottoman Sipahi, even though their stats are far worse, they add flavor to the game. I'd also go with Khwar Cav (they must hate me for giving them this name) becuase this is a sign of the development of my Empire, those units require infrastructure investment. I like to tot them around to boast the wealth of the Empire. It's a game and it's certainly something about having fun too. The Turks have such a wealth of units that if you only select the best 4 and make your armies out of those and no other units, you'll be losing on the HUGE fun factor of the Turks, in variety of units. All depends on how you want to play. A lot of people like to use Turkish infantry in Early Era, to me an all Cav early turk army is LOADS of FUN (although the micromanagement is definetly frustrating).

The poor stats of some of the units can be made up and improved, by infrastructure (e.g build ribat and mosque where you train Turcos), and also by able generals and comabt "training". You can make these low stat units stand against Templars, and Chiv Knights, in due time.

Lastly as Cebei mentioned the Khwar Cav were very special in their time (I'm still amazed how they made it into the game), and as such I love to have them in later armies.

more to follow.......

[Shahed]

The way I classify Turkish troops (sorry if I forgot any)

Raider Cavalry

*Horse Archers
*Turcoman Horse

Melee Cavalry
*Armenian Heavy Cavalry
*Ottoman Sipahi
*Khwar Cav
*Ghulam Cavalry
*Ghulam Bodyguards
*Sipahi of the Porte

Attack Infantry
*Janissary Infantry
*Ottoman Infantry
*Ghazi Infantry
*Hashishin (special ops lol )
*Futtuwa

Note:
JI,OI and Futtuwa can wear down enemies by missile fire before engaging.

Anti-Cavalry
*Bedouin Camel Warriors
*Janissary Heavy Infantry

Note:
JHI are supposed to be heavy attack infantry so they can be used against swords in SP, however their primary function is anti cav. Best defeat enemy swords with Cavalry flank or rear attack, while frontally engaged vs attack infantry or spears.

Spearmen
*Spearmen (doh )
*Saracen Infantry (can be used as medium infantry when above valor 3 in SP)
*Muwahid Foot Soldiers (same as SI but at valor 2, better for desert provinces, faster, higher morale)

Siege Artillery
*Siege Canon Crew
*Demi Canon Crew

Anti personel artillery and missile
*Serpentine Crew (YAY )
*Arquebusiers
(wonderful smoke and noise and also -6 morale to enemy even if one man of enemy unit dies )

[Shahed]

About the question on movement.

To do this:

-Select ALL the unit in that formation
-Group them
-ALT + left click on the map to move them to the new location (I hope I remeber this right) this should make them move to new location while maintaining formation and facing.

In that replay I deployed behind the smaller hill on the larger slope. I deployed the main force on the slope so that the AI had the choice of which side he wants to come up. If he came from the left, I would have engaged his army frontally with the forward ambush force( a Khwar Cav and JHI charge from the forest), and simultaneously moved my main force forward to the small wooded hill. This would have been an offensive battle, and the JI and OI would have been in melee more than in archery mode.

If he came from my right, I would leave my ambush force till he passes. Then move my main force quickly to intercept his approach and open fire with the 6 unit combo of OI+JI. Once he passes the ambush force I'd move them round the back amd surround him. This is what ended up happening. This would be a defensive battle.

Ottoman Infantry
Well Ottoman Infantry has a small "secret". This unit has armor piercing axes, which gives it an anti armor bonus. The Janissary Infatnry do NOT get this bonus. For this reason the JI actually benefit greatly from having OI in front of them to defend against heavily armored knights.

What would you expect a Turk player to do if his OI is getting charged with Heavy Catho or Ortho Cav ?. Normally a lot would answer that the Turk will pull back his OI to save them and he'll hit the enemy cav with JHI. This is probably true for most.

What I do I simply charge the OI into the enemy cav and at the same time send in the JHI and/or friendly cav. The OI do have armor piercing which means that they can fight off a mounted heavy armored cav (or foot infantry) unit longer than the JI can usually Also the OI should perform better than JI against heavily armored enemies becuase of the armor piercing bonus. Their attack is weak, but with valor and weapon upgrades (think Hungary and Wallachia have iron ?) they can do pretty OK. I agree that OI are generally weak but they can be ok. Trian em in Rum, they will have + 2 valor, then shift em to a Weaponsmith provincem and retrain em for weapons bonus. Otherwise just use them as they are with +2 valor from Rum.

Think of other units with armor piercing bonus e,g Ghazi, Vikings. In my opinion these units have an advantage over others, and should be used.

This is my primary reason for taking OI, PLUS you get OI with +2 valor in Rum (province bonus + Master Bower), so I think may as well take em with +2 valor.

Lastly we come back to my point that of variety and fun. I'd take OI even though I have acces to JI, in SP and MP.

Does this help ?

[Fortebraccio]

I've recently started a campaign with the Turks (maybe that's why my girlfriend ain't seeing me much around) and...wow, having played only with catholic factions (albeit peculiar like Hungarians) I'm enjoying the different approach to warfare. I've read the very interesting thread about muslim units misrepresentation, and I'm wondering how I could mod units like Sipahis and Janissary Archers (I'm still playing in Early, year 1171 so I had not the chance to deploy them yet) to better represent their skill on the battlefield. I have the very basic modding notions I'd need, but suggestions about values are welcome.I also wonder if Turcoman Cavalry are exceedingly weak in melee combat, as I found them much less effective than the Hungarian Szekely...maybe it is just a matter of high expectations. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Probably Wes MedMod (2.04 No Units)has made things much easier for the Turks, I had trouble with the Byzantines at first but they seemed far from unstoppable...yet it is a very weird game, I had to fend off a French Crusade and a Spanish one with the help of the Egyptians, that would be later crushed by Polish (&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif infidels.

[kataphraktoi]

Seljuk Sinan

once you start a Byz campaign, I'll have an Orthodox priest on hand just in case you feel like joining the Byzantines.

perhaps we can persaude you to settle on Byzantine territory like past Turkic warriors have, but theres a difference:
- Thematic scheme settlement: land for service
- post - Manzikert scheme: old fashion landgrab

please choose the former

Ever since I became ware of the Katanks's weakness in slwness and desert, I haven't won battles easily. When I was ignorant, however, things were easy. Damn it ignorance is bliss.

I never try and have too much Katanks on the battlefield, they just drag everyone else to their level: slow

I'd be interested to see of you can transpose some Turkish tactics into the Byzantine army, the Byzantines have always "borrowed" a lot of Eastern tactics in their way of fighting. They would have too, Asiatics are too damn fast to catch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

You'd probably like the Byzantine Cavalry for its verstaility as a medium cavalry and a competent horse archer.

I had modded Katanks with bows since that was part of their arsenal, but they remind me of Turkish horse archers who won't stay still and be charged at so I left them without bows.

[econ21]

I'm trying to play the Turks on early and am finding it a learning experience.

Compared to Catholics, they have two big advantages on early:
1) the Armenian Heavy Cavalry are pretty much equivalent to Feudal Knights, but FAR easier (ie quicker) to get.
2) the Saracens mean effectively getting Chivalric Sergeants on early.
Perhaps perversely, this means the Turks can have heavier troops than the Catholics, except:

Where the Turks fall down on early is in lack of good "swords" - ie anti-infantry heavy infantry (equivalent to FMAA). I guess Ghazis are the best they have but they die really easy. I make a frontal line of Saracens and then flank with Ghazis. Back them up with archers and station AHC + Turcomans on the flanks, and it's a pretty solid army. The Saracens morale is a little questionable, so it helps to have a decent command general. I haven't got futuwwa yet and on paper am not sure they are better than ghazis (speed is a big plus for flankers).

I haven't really learnt how to use Turcomans - they are fine as light cav but I can't see how people use them en masse as horse archers.

I'm about to go into the high era, so hopefully I'll be able to try out some of the distinctive Ottoman units.

[NewJeffCT]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ Sep. 22 2003,07:37)]I'm about to go into the high era, so hopefully I'll be able to try out some of the distinctive Ottoman units.
Playing the Turks now in late and just in the mop-up phase... but, the Ottomans are not available until Late. You get Janissaries (which are better) in High. I prefer Futuuwas to Ghazi. You can get whittle the infidels down a bit with arrow fire before charging in...

[Shahed]

Let me add Ottoman Infantry and Ottoman Sipahi are available in High if you are playing V2.0 (VI) and in Late for V1.1 Mtw.

Thanks for the reminder. Simon is playing VI IIRC so he will get em in High. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[NewJeffCT]

Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ Sep. 23 2003,10:24)]Let me add Ottoman Infantry and Ottoman Sipahi are available in High if you are playing V2.0 (VI) and in Late for V1.1 Mtw.

Thanks for the reminder. Simon is playing VI IIRC so he will get em in High. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Thanks - I did not know that. I like the original version (1.0) the best. That way, you get rewarded for building properly. So, you can make crossbows after you get a bowyer's workshop, instead of waiting until 1205 and just going for arbs or pavise arbs instead.

[econ21]

Doing some digging around, my impression is that Ottoman units are not available in the VI campaign until late. Probably no great loss.

Janissary units are available in high though you'd be doing well to get them.

More sadly, it appears that Turks are about the only faction I know of that does not get arbalesters http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Rowan11088]

I'm finding the Turks to be pretty useful, but I'm still figuring out the point of some units. If i'm not mistaken, all Turkish archers and skirmishers use the Short Bow, same as normal archers, with the exception of universal units like crossbowmen. So, why would you buy Turcoman foot over regular archers? They suck in melee almost as much, because their only bonus is in slight defense and armor, and they cost a lot more. For that matter, is there any reasom to buy Janissary Archers over Janissay infantry? Unless some of these units have larger supplies of arrows and/or shoot faster, I don't really see the point. Why have so many skirmishers when you'll at most take out 3-4 men before you engage? Frankly, I do use Turcomans and Futuwaas, and they're not bad, I just don't understand why they're no different from archers. Is there something I'm missing here?

[Fragony]

I find the Turcoman footsoldiers to be pretty resistant to a charge IF they get caught. They will not win the battle for you, but they will hold up long enough for your other troops to aid them, and they will surprise you when fighting in a forest. Futuwa are better when attacking, but don't expect to bring a lot of them home. I usually don't go to war with futawa, ghazi's are better for the slicing and dicing. What I don't like about the turkish, once you can build janissari infantry and heavy's there just is no more point in using all these cool turkish units.

[Kanuni]

Rowan ur right, all Turkish hybrids use s-bow, but there are some other factors to consider too.

For example, turcoman foot are "fast" the others are not.
Every archer in the unit needs a free line of sight to shoot effectively and the formation of turcoman foot seems to help this. This is especially important if the target is in close range. However I have experienced that putting the other hybrids simply to loose formation helps.

And am I the only one who loves Ottoman Infantry? They are in practise almost like Militia Seargants and + bows http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif so I'd say they are even better.

I'd classify Turk hybrids as:
JI, otto and fut are inf first then archers
The rest are archers first then inf.

[DemonArchangel]

Janissary Infantry and JHI's kick MAJOR ass

[Aelwyn]

Hurin:

To elaborate on what Sinan told you about movement and facing:

If you group all units together and hold down Alt while left clicking in a different area than where you are, you will, as he said, arrive there facing the same direction with the same formation.

If you right click under the same conditions (like say right click a ways forward and to the right of your army) they will maintain the same formation and all rotate towards where you clicked.

If you right click in the direction you want them to face, and then left click on where you want them to move (even before they finish turning) they will arrive in their new position facing the way you wanted them to face by right-clicking.

And you can see what its going to look like in each situation by pressing and holding down the space bar (I think, IIRC).

Hope it helps you move a bit better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif