Wars of the Roses

[Duke John]

http://chronicles.metw.net/wotr/wotr_title.jpg
History: Wars of the Roses 1455 - 1485
The Wars of the Roses raged from 1455 to 1485 - the longest period of civil war in English history. They barely affected the daily routine of the civilian population, yet for the leaders of the opposing houses of York and Lancaster, the wars were devastating.

Flemish pikemen and Billmen
http://chronicles.metw.net/wotr/screenshot_wotr_01.jpg
http://chronicles.metw.net/wotr/screenshot_wotr_02.jpg

More coming soon
Duke John

Disclaimer: I have a very short attention span so I hop from to project to project, you'll just have to excuse me.

[Duke John]

Wars of the Roses manual

Alignment
The Wars of the Roses were primarily a war between the House of Lancaster and York. This translates to three different polital alignments:

http://chronicles.metw.net/wotr/wotr_icon_alignment_yorkist.gifYorkist: The amount of white roses relate to the belief that the Yorks are the rightfull heirs to the Throne.

http://chronicles.metw.net/wotr/wotr_icon_alignment_lancastrian.gifLancastrian: The amount of red roses relate to the belief that the Lancastrians should remain political rulers of England.

Neutral: other factions such as the Irish and Scots do not really have a strong political alignment. The Scots fight for their independent. There is however some historical reference of the Irish allying with the Yorkists.

New strategic agents
Two new agents will make their appearances, the Diplomat (as Catholic Bishop), who will influence the political alignment of a province. The Magistrate (as Inquisitor), probably named differently, will question the loyalty of generals and population to the cause of his related House. When generals or common people turn out to be traitors he will sent to the prison or hang them.

Factions
The Wars of the Roses expansion concentrate heavily on the House of Lancaster and the House of York. The Lancasters are on the throne at the start of the campaign while the Yorkists should try to overthrow the Lancastrian regime.

The families of Neville and Percy fought each other in the Wars of the Roses as much for supremacy in the North as for who should control the government of all England.

Of course Scotland and Ireland will be present but they are not the focus since they were not interested in taking the throne of England.

Possible other factions will be perhaps other great landowners, the Earl of Warwick and the Dukes of Buckingham.

Another possibility will be to leave the number of playable factions at 4 and warn the players that Ireland, Scotland, and another 2 are not meant to be played by the player. (There is a minimum of 8 major factions).

Cheers, Duke John

[Duke John]

And another just incase I really get inspirated...

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Wicked http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Wellington]

Jeez DJ,

I can see you've really been smitten with the "MTW modding bug".

Yet again, extremely impressive images.

Considering what you've been doing with ME:TW, then Hellenic and now WotR unit creation, let me know if you want to sort out the DeadPage issues. Considering what your now doing it may be an idea to address this issue once and for all.

If so I'll go back to this (I've had some thoughts since the ME:TW initial release and I suspect it may be an idea to create a small tool that just creates new DeadPage stuff based on what currently exists within an existing MTW directory - unrelated to UM_LOTR) immediately after LMM5 is finished.

Welly

[Eastside Character]

Duke John - you seem to be involved in so many mods, but none of them has been finished yet (ME:TW , Hellenic , and this one WoR). Is this the way you work - start a project, then let others finish it . . . I know there's a hell lot of work to do making a mod like ME:TW , but where's the end of it - I mean all the polishing and playtesting's got to end sooner or later , or will it never happen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
You know I'm just (and believe that not only I) growing impatient. . . but will wait - I dont have a choice. Massive respect for what you're doing here for the community ,but Duke have mercy. . . - the only question is WHEN http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Alrowan]

excellent work. Im studying the wars of the roses, and lets just say im looking forard to any mod

[dclare4]

Dear Duke John,

I was working on a Roses TW mod for MTW before VI came around but quite stupidly I didn't take note of my changes. I still have the original files and various banners etc. To get the 'real feel' of the period the different troops had different shields even if they belonged to one side, and these would depend on who, historically, commanded certain units. Like for instance Yorkist mounted men-at-arms would wear the colors of the infamous Duke of Gloucester, while normal foot soldiers would have Edward of York's blue and murrey with a white rose.

If you search the old, old posts the descriptions are there I think. I also renamed some of the unit types because we didn't need 'all' the cultures, though I did use all the factions. Each factions names are changed as well to reflect who was historically with certain factions. Depending on the period certain factions are active - for instance York in the Early/Middle period becomes Gloucester in the latter period. I don't remember all of them but
I know they include York, Gloucester, Lancaster, Somerset, Percy, Neville, Stanley, Stafford.

Instead of 'religion' it's political affiliation. I think Catholic is Lancastrian, Orthodox is I think Yorkist and Muslim is foreign powers. The barbarians are Scots and French (no slight meant&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif as the game is meant to cover the 'entire' period if in a somewhat disjointed fashion thus when the King (Pope) calls for a 'crusade' it is against the foreign powers.

The game was meant to be played on the original Europe map and this is where it gets messy. The 'non-Europe' areas including Africa and the Med islands are 'jump maps' - for instance you're in the Middlesex region, that's the only place you can 'jump' to the Tower of London region w/c uses one of the med Islands. Other important fortresses are similarly represented. The Africa area is Southern England jump map. For the European areas, Spain is Western England and Cornwall, France and Italy are the Midlands, the British Isles are Wales (the channel is the river Severn&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif while the Germanic and Polish lands are the Yorkshire and Northumberland dales. Russia is the Northern March and Scotland. However I never got past the naming stage unfortunately and so the jumping thing doesn't really work. What is nice about having such a large map is you can really hold a large area without upsetting the others (unlike in the small British map in VI) and I DID finish retitling all the different areas. These aren't just territorial titles like Earl of Worcester or whatever, but include Wardenships (Northern March), Castellanships (Carisbrooke) and Mayoralties (Lord Mayor of London).

I renamed the various units such as Spy - Seductress (thinking of Jane Shore, etc), Assasin - Murderer (Shakespeare's Richard III), Emissary - Herald. I was also working on the flags and such for the different factions but I believe only Stafford's strategic map flag is done.

If you want we could collaborate on this but in either case I could send you the files if you'd like. I just don't want all that work to go to waste.

Cheers,
Lord Clare

[Duke John]

Wellington,
At the moment I'm still making units but after I will look into deadpages or sooner if you say the word. A small independent tool that only deals with deadpages would be great and very helpfull. Perhaps as input an empty green TGA on which the tool places dead bodies. As time goes on more and more bodies will be placed at empty green spaces. I have no need for existing bodies since they're much to large because of scaling.

Declare4,
I have seen your WotR mod before. It was indeed messy with the Europe map, but I would gladly use your material

I really like your idea of replacing belief with political affilation. I will have to work this out since this campaign will span only 30-50 years so you should be able to campaign quickly over the land. The techtree will consequently be very small.

You have an interesting idea about giving certain units not faction colours but colours specific to their region. However I was planning to eventually expand this mod to the Europe map and include other late medieval events such as the appearance of the Landsknechts the Italian Wars. By keeping faction colours on the units I can later use them for that campaign.

Eastside
In the beginning of the METW mod I was doing alot of things, too many things. Luckily the ME:TW-Team has gained alot of knowledgeable and creative persons. I've backed away abit and let others do discussions and playtesting. I will do the unit graphics, but that will be mostly it. The first BETA was almost entirely from my hands and I think it's time that the other members prove their worth (which they are doing right now).
On the topic of the Hellinic mod, well that was never my mod, I promised Komninos some BIFs which I did and I will make some more but that's all.

Cheers, Duke John

[Wellington]

Quote[/b] (Duke John @ Sep. 20 2003,02:00)]At the moment I'm still making units but after I will look into deadpages or sooner if you say the word. A small independent tool that only deals with deadpages would be great and very helpfull. Perhaps as input an empty green TGA on which the tool places dead bodies. As time goes on more and more bodies will be placed at empty green spaces. I have no need for existing bodies since they're much to large because of scaling.
Hi DJ,

I'll do something for this, as it appears to be the last major "problem" that requires addressing when creating entirely new units.

It should be both MTW and VI compatable.

I'll E-mail you something ASAP.

Welly

[TheSilverKnight]

Wow DJ. Looks like you're working pretty hard at it. When is the release date? Is it for the VI map (British isles)? Are you planning to release it soon? I want to play it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[dclare4]

Okay... but if you're thinking of expanding into all of Europe or making it like not so much WotR specific but perhaps a simulation of the entire late medieval period (something I for one would like to see too Renaissance TW) you may not have too much use for the 'ideology' buildings there. Still they'll provide food for thought. Where can I send the files?

BTW, one of my main limitations was I would keep getting lost with the crusader build files. Perhaps you could help me there? Not really to do brand new units but to modify existing ones - one thing I wanted to do with WotR was make different sizes of the same unit type recruitable - for example: a bodyguard sized unit of lets say, archers (10 men), a company sized unit (maybe 30 men) and a grand company sized unit (something like 100 men) and so on. I wanted to concentrate more on subterfuge and small private armies that the wars were fought with rather than making each and every battle a Towton-size slugfest.

Best of luck,
Lord Clare

[Alrowan]

ive made a map of towton, still yet to upload it, but it would look good with your units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[dclare4]

I think you (and others) will like the new 'spies' or rather 'seductresses' - in the background are heraldic colors of the contenders or scenes from period reinactments.

How do I post pictures up?

Thanks,
Lord Clare

[TheSilverKnight]

Oh, and one thing, Duke John Is this going to be a total expansion for Medieval: Total War Viking Invasion where it doesn't replace any factions? Just adds new stuff to the game? I, as a serious fan who wants to play this mod, would like to say that most people would like it to be a regular expansion pack which adds new factions, units, etc. Just my 2 pence for the day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[dclare4]

Hey guys how do I post pictures up? Does it have to be from a website reference? No way to upload it from my HD?

Thanks,
Lord Clare

[shand994]

Yeh they need to be hosted somewhere.

[Alrowan]

Duke John, perhaps we could try to make the mod based on the actual battles, like the historical campagins? that would be a different style of challenge and i believe it would be rewarding too. I can put my help in for the battle maps.

the major battles:

Mortimers Cross
Towton
St Albans
Losecote
Barnet
Tewksbury
Bosworth
Stoke

of those i think we could work on Towton, Tewksbury and Bosworth first, each of those being the major battles, the others were much smaller.

[Duke John]

Alrowan

Good idea, by finishing that part first we will be able to please the community relatively quickly instead of first needing to finish an entire mod. I have however no mapmaking abilities, and I do not intent to learn it, so if I can depend you... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

I have the Osprey book on the Wars of the Roses, so if you need historical maps just respond, and I will draw some sketches. What is your historical reference for making the maps?

We also need to get a list of names of generals that participated.

Cheers, Duke John

[Alrowan]

stoke may also be another good battle, was just doing a little reading on it.

I got some books at home, but i mainly use the internet for maps and such, its also handy if i can get photos of the battlefields as well. Im working on Towton atm ill tell hou it goes

[Emp. Conralius]

Leave it to Duke John Whether the battlefield is in Mordor, 14th century Britain or in Ancient Greece, he always delivers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[dclare4]

Hullo Duke John,

Please check the files I gave you, particularly the names file. The names listed there are for the most part accurate listings of the knights and gentry, family names at least, which fought with the different factions during the WotR. There are lots of refs online but I did the mod so long ago I don't remember where to find them. You may want to check out the War of the Roses Yahoo Group as well and the game that they sponsor for names and titles. All titles that I've listed down in the files I sent you are historically accurate as well.

Best regards,
Lord Clare

[Duke John]

Declare4

Could you perhaps send those WotR files again, I think I lost them in a clean-up. (More files are getting lost this way, even ME:TW ones http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif )

Those names would be of great help, thanks for your work

Cheers, Duke John

[Alrowan]

I can help with generals Duke John, and more than likely thier attributes, using thier vices and virtues, we could make thier units in the campagins to reflect that with the V&V modifiers, for example, Edward IV was a Glutton and Womaniser, yet a skilled General, Oxford (De Vere) was a skilled general, but only later in the wars, earlier he had only losses. and so on. I should be able to provide a list of the generals present at each battle, and what parts of the army they looked after (usually the 3 "battles" english standard, with one commander for each "battle")

[ShadesWolf]

Hi Duke John,

I like those Flanders units, what time period are they from ? are they 'War of the Rose' or a general 13th/14th century unit ?

[Duke John]

Alrowan
I would greatly interested in your list of generals. We can at least make the start of the campaign as historically accurate as possible. With famous generals appearing during the course of the campaign.

SOME ISSUES

Valour of units
Also I read about in the first years the armies were composed of "veteran" troops but as the war continued, they were replaced by green soldiery. I am intending to include this in the game by adding units with muliple valour at the start of the campaign.

Trade
The Wars of the Roses did not really affect everyday life. Towns were not burned and villages were not murdered to the last child. The Houses needed the backup of the population to stay on the throne once grabbed by military power.
Thus trade will be entirely eliminated.

Naval units
I'm still in doubt, but from the material I have read, I think I can conclude that there were no large naval conflicts. The war was fought on land.
But there were multiple invasions made by transferring troops with ships. At the moment I'm having the thought of eliminating the ability to build ships. Each faction will start with some ships, but to promote land battles this will be everything. Land bridges will take care of the connection between Ireland and England.

Techtree
A techtree is nice for people who want to spend turn after turn slowly building up their empire. I am not such a player. I want a balanced force and I want it now, spending hours to get there is IMO a waste of time. Developing a techtree is a kind of strategy but it's not to my liking. Also it tends to handicap the AI.
I look at the techtree more realistically; the amount of population and trade tend to influence the level of technology present in a particular area. Since generally taken, a ruler cannot influence the amount of trade (besides acumen) or the amount of birth, this is a given fact and should not be controlled by the player. And the WotR only spanned 30 years, thus cities will not change radically.

As a result I will heavily simplify the techtree, with the following restrictions that have some consequences:
1. Units Each province is assigned a population level; there will be capitol provinces but also less populated ones. Since the amount of population relates directly to the amount of treasury certain provinces will not be able to tech up. For example (and this is just an example):
- Kent is a level I province; only Militia, Billmen and Longbows can be recruited here.
- Worchester is level II and you can train Halberdiers and cast cannons.
- Lancaster is densely populated and rich because of trade, level III, and here you can train Men-at-arms.
- East Saxony (or where ever London is) will be capitol province of entire England, level IV, and this will you Royal Knights and here is also the Parliament located, with a nice fat title, Protector of the Realm.

2. Buildings In a similar way this will be transferred to the building techtree. Of each building type (Blacksmith, bowyer, etc.) there will be only one basic variant. It will be impossible to upgrade a building. The population level determines which buildings can be build. For example:
- In a level I province you can build a Blacksmith (Billmen) which requires a Keep.
- A level II province allows a Castle where in combination with the Blacksmith you can train Halberdiers.
- A level III province allows a Citadel. In combination with the Blacksmith you can train Men-at-Arms.

Lastly each province will be mostly entirely build; you will be able to make balanced forces from the start but you may tweak this by adding some more buildings once you're playing.

Alignment
The Wars of the Roses were primarily a war between the House of Lancaster and York. This translates to three different polital alignments: Yorkist, Lancastrian and neutral. Since "all" the English people were catholic political alignment will replace religion. The amount of support is reflected by the following icons:
Yorkist: http://chronicles.metw.net/wotr/wotr_icon_alignment_yorkist.gif
Lancastrian: http://chronicles.metw.net/wotr/wotr_icon_alignment_lancastrian.gif

New strategic agents
Two new agents will make their appearances, the Diplomat (as Catholic Bishop), who will influence the political alignment of a province. The Magistrate (as Inquisitor), probably named differently, will question the loyalty of generals and population to the cause of his related House. When generals or common people turn out to be traitors he will sent to the prison or hang them.

Factions
The Wars of the Roses expansion concentrate heavily on the House of Lancaster and the House of York. The Lancasters are on the throne at the start of the campaign while the Yorkists should try to overthrow the Lancastrian regime.

The families of Neville and Percy fought each other in the Wars of the Roses as much for supremacy in the North as for who should control the government of all England.

Of course Scotland and Ireland will be present but they are not the focus since they were not interested in taking the throne of England.

Possible other factions will be perhaps other great landowners, the Earl of Warwick and the Dukes of Buckingham. The House of Tudor(?), but the Tudors only appeared at the end.

Another possibility will be to leave the number of playable factions at 4 and warn the players that Ireland, Scotland, and another 2 are not meant to be played by the player. (There is a minimum of 8 major factions).


Comments, questions, inspiration?
I would gladly hear what you think of my ideas. However this mod will be primarily made by me. I welcome submissions, but I have the above ideas in mind for a while and it's time to finally use them and see if they can work.
Normal MTW campaigns tend to bore me as it's mostly about administration of an empire. The Wars of the Roses expansion will be focused on politics and battles. Pure action

Finally
To make all the ideas above a reality there will need to be files overwritten, probably to the degree where normal MTW campaigns cannot be played normally. Either accept this or move along to the next mod. MTW is simply not that flexible.

I will be updating the first few posts of this thread with the purpose of a manual.

Cheers, Duke John

[Duke John]

ShadesWolf
The Flemish pikemen are meant for the Wars of the Roses mod and have thus a 15th century look; breastplate with fauld and tassets, and a sallet helmet (although similar to the Italian helmet, it's still a sallet).

In my opinion it's not really representable for 13th or 14th century units.

Cheers, Duke John

[The Wizard]

I've always liked your work, DJ... you're involved in at least two mods which I gotta play when they come out - ME: TW and WotR - http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[ShadesWolf]

This us looking like a very interesting mod 'Duke John ' some very nice ideas, I like the political idea to replace religion. A nice touch.

[Alrowan]

as far as factions go, i really dont believe you need that many, same for proviences. What i envision it to look something like is a map of the British Isles and Norther France. France and Burgundy were two other major powers in the wars, each side trying to align with one faction or the other. As far as factions go, i think you only need York, Lancaster, France, Brittany, Burgundy, Scotland, Ireland (neglible). Dont have too many provs, say 30-40 in all, minimise rebel areas, north was primarily York, South and west was lancastrian, ireland would be rebels, France as france, Brittany as itself and Burgundy would be in the flanders region. Thats really it. You could actually make an event that would see to the rise of a Tudor faction in wales in about 1485, which depends if York controls London or not.

[Duke John]

Campaign map
I will use the VI campaign map. I've fooled around with LMM and also tried to edit the official LukUp.LBM to add Flanders, but the palettes are getting screwed up. So it's the same setup as in VI with the exclusion of the Scandanavian provinces.
I will edit the names on the map for a more 15th century accuracy.

Factions
Events like the rise of Tudor cannot be modded. Events such as the coming of the Golden Horde are hardcoded and is unmoddable by standard methods.

So I am stuck with the British Isles and to add some flavour there will be at least 4 English factions. If one of the great families had the opportunity to take the throne they would take it.

I am seeing the Tudors as a split from the House of Lancaster (Lancastrian Henry Tudor married the Margaret of York) in the same way that you have rebelious princes in MTW. Not likely to happen in games, but it's possible.

French, Burgundians, etc
Continental armies make their appearance as mercenaries or possibly troops that require a Port + Inn to be able to train them.

Cheers, Duke John

[TheSilverKnight]

Ireland was not an independent faction. Ireland was disputed between York and Lancaster. So therefore I would believe Ireland would not be a good choice for a faction in the game. Just my 2 pence. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Duke John]

Those two pence are worth two dimes for me

Irish
I'm still learning all the details of that period. I know that Ireland was not an independent country. But would it be safe to assume that the Irish were independent enough to be a faction for the sake of the mod?

The problem is that I need to fill 8 faction slots, if I can't find 8 or solutions to solve this dilemma then there will be no WotR campaign. I can erase 2 factions by placing them on the 2 Scandanavian provinces and remove all connections to other (sea)provinces. With the 4 great families, Lancaster, York, Neville, Percy, and the Scottish I have only one slot left to fill. I thought the Irish was a good option, but perhaps it's better to see them as provinces of York and Lancaster. This solve a few problems so I will gladly do this.

Perhaps for the last one another great family/landowner? Just see it as a Duke or Earl being loyal to the Yorkist or Lancastrian cause. But as both families tend to die out because of the wars then suddenly a gap appears and the Duke/Earl takes his chances and graphs the throne of England. Unrealistic?

Cheers, Duke John

[TheSilverKnight]

You could re-name the Irish to the Percy family. That would work.

[Alrowan]

Duke John, it is entirely possible to mod in the french area as playable, all you need to do is edit the lukmap so that the viking colors are removed, and make 2 new areas on the french area by editing the lukmap. I could give it a shot even. Then all that would need to be adjusted is the castles, ports, army gathering points, and provience info, might take a little time, but it sure as hell beats making a new map.

as for an irish faction, i tihnk thats possible, but to do that i suggest giving them one or maybe 2 provs in ireland.

Another option for a faction would be to include one of the main bishoprics in england at the time.

if you did all that we might see

York
Lancaster
Nevlille
Percy
Scotland
Ireland
France
1 other (Bishopric? Hastings? Woodvilles? Tudors? Wales?)

[king steven]

sorry, i'm confused about this topic.

[king steven]

sorry, i'm confused about this topic.

[Emp. Conralius]

DJ,

Could you tell us more about the unit tech tree?

[slpnglion]

Where can I download this cool mod? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Alrowan]

not for a while yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

theres work to be done

[Auxilia]

Duke John

From what I can see this looks fantastic I can't wait to see it in action

You've asked for input so here goes - I'm completely new to the whole modding thing, so apologies in advance if any of my ideas seem particularly stupid http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Allies/Treachery/Friendly Fire

As you're probably aware several battles of the period hinged upon parts of armies swapping sides (the Stanleys at Bosworth) attacking their own side (Lancastrians at Barnet) or simply not moving (Northumberland's division at Bosworth). How easy would it be to reproduce the risk of having half of ones army turn on you or ignore orders?

Units

Do you have a list of units that you're going to include and are you open to suggestions as to additional ones? What have you got in mind with regards gunpowder units - from what I can deduce from my own reading, guns - both hand held and heavier ordnance - played a role in some but certainly not all of the battles, and I've yet to read any accounts of battles where they decided the outcome.


That's all I think of for now - best of luck with it

[Coldstream]

Duke John,

I had an idea for your mod while I was reading about all you've planned (fantastic idea by the way - can't wait) and it seems a shame that it'll only last about 30 turns. So I was thinking, why not change the format from Years to Months? 30 years x 12 months - 360 turns. It would take a lot of work hunting down text and changing "years" to "months." In the main strategy map where it says "AD 1451" or what have you, it could say "Month 12" or some sort of month-related abbreviation (if month is too long to fit) like "Mnt." or "Mnth." etc. you get the idea.

Now, I thought that the reign of Kings would obviously be messed up (King Charles ruling for a whopping 20 "months" before dying of a treacherous old age, etc) so I was thinking that instead of having Kings, you could call them Ministers. All of your major players such as King Charles, Cromwell, etc. etc. would appear as Generals, thus giving them in one way or another infinite life. Yes, they die from time to time, but the person that takes their place is still essentially them, with the same skills and whatnot. It can be to these people you give the titles to (Lord Protector, King of England, Duke of Wherever.) Your Ministers are the people shown as the Royal Family, and will all start the game with 0 command, but high accumen. The Princes would be changed to something appropriately named. Perhaps the Princesses could be changed to "Maids of Honour" etc.

That's it for now, I think. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

[Marshal Murat]

Just a side note, Cromwell and the New Model Army were in the English Civil War between Parliament and Royalist.

[Coldstream]

Err...LOL Got my wars mixed up.

I meant "Henry Tudor and Richard III"

Whoops http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[dclare4]

Dear Duke John,

Sorry for the delay in sending the files. They're at the office (w/c has DSL) and I've been stuck at home for a spell. Will resend ASAP but I do need your email again.

If you have any questions ask away. I've studied this particular period quite a bit and I've contacted the Rose Wars group on Yahoo among other things and if you need any info just ask. I would suggest you look up Freezywater and War of the Roses in Google and try to find their 'flag sheets' w/c has a list of the nobles who fought in the various battles.

Why remove Scandinavia at all? I would suggest you make Scandinavia a 'jump map' with perhaps Norway as a critical norther city perhaps Berwick or York and Denmark becoming metropolitan London. That way your 'Middlesex' area can have as its 'castle' the critical town of St.Albans (2 battles fought there) the idea being that you must take 'Middlesex' before getting to London (where the Tower would be it's 'castle&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

Irish would not be an independent faction. Historically Ireland was pretty much split though very much Yorkist leaning. The old Duke's invasions of 'kerns and gallowglasses' (Shakespeare's Henry VI part 2) was a very real threat to Henry. The main Yorkist adherent was the Fitzgerald family, Earls of Desmond. This is partly because their chief rivals were the Butler family, Earls of Ormonde (one of w/c became Earl of Wiltshire due to the 'she wolf of France&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

I would suggest you also try checking out if you can find it, Kingmaker as well as the Rosewars game on the net. There are many great info sites (almost all of my info was found online) as well as (for flavour) the Henry plays of Shakespeare (IV, V, VI) and Richard III as well as Thomas Costain's The Last Plantagenets.

If you need help 'assigning titles' (though I'm assuming you're using the standard VI map w/c doesn't need that many titles to begin with - at least compared to what I had planned&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif just ask. There were many titles and offices and there's a list I have somewhere of what these were 'worth'. It may be a good idea (w/c I did actually because despite using the MTW Europe map I STILL ran out of titles&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif to combine some of the minor titles. Just to give you an idea the hierarchy should go something like King, Queen, Duke, Marquess, Bishop, Earl, Baron, Sheriff, Constable. While Sherrifdoms can probably be subsumed to the county title there were several very critical Constabularies (I would suggest if you can to use jump maps for these) including of course Constable of the Tower (London), Dover (Constable of Dover Castle), Carisbrooke (on the Isle of Wight), Windsor, Harlech and Caernarvon. The most important towns/cities were (of course) London (Lord Mayor would be the regional title for this), York (chief town in the North and ironically, the countryside was very strongly Lancastrian - there were many Lancastrian nobles in Yorkshire&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, Shrewsbury (chief town of the Welsh march, with Ludlow of the Yorkists being almost as important), Durham and Carlisle (the Prince Bishop of Durham was a ecclesiastical noble and often a great warlord in his own right while the Bishop of Carlisle would guard the western end of the 'Northern March' along with the Warden of the Northern March and such northern nobles as Northumberland), Coventry (chief town in the midlands and the Lancastrian 'capital&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and Canterbury (due to the importance of its Archbishop, the ecclesiastical head of England, followed by the Archbishop of York). Then there were the noble seats such as Corfe of the Beaufort Dukes of Somerset, Ludlow of the Duke of York, Rising of the Duke of Norfolk, Alnwick of Percy Earl of Northumberland and Warwick and Richmond of the Neville clan. BTW the Nevilles were historically split during this period, the older branch, Lord Ralph, Earls of Westmoreland were Lancastrians (but were not really active during the war) and the more famous younger branch of Lord Richard, Earl of Salisbury (married HYW leader Tom Montacute, the 'weary homicide's' daughter and got the old man's title when his face got blown off at Orleans) and his legendary son, Richard, Earl of Warwick.

Each region has its 'fors' and 'againsts' in almost dialectical opposition (ie the Courtenays vs the Bonvilles in the West Country - Devon and Cornwall - Courtenay was a friend of Plantagenet of York but when Bonville curried York's favor, old Courtenay and his son went over to Lancaster Bonville was ordered to guard the half-mad Henry at 2nd St Albans and when Warwick fled he and the HYW veteran Sir Thomas Kyriel were still with Henry and were captured by Margaret and Prince Edward. Margaret asked her not nearly ten year old son what should be done with the two knights and young Edward ordered them executed as traitors - imagine the end of the movie Braveheart. Other opposites were the Herberts of Raglan vs the Tudors of Pembroke and of course Neville vs Percy.) Other facets of the conflict were the fact (despite what Shakespeare would have us believe) that the nobles were not at the start ready to 'kill the king' or replace him but were ostensibly against the (arguably very much) corrupt nobles in the 'Court Faction' including men like Somerset (who lost Normandy for England) and De La Pole of Suffolk (whos son, ironically became one of the last great Yorkist supporters) under the sway of Margaret. That's another problem with mods about this period is the shifty alliances and betrayals made for all sorts of reasons. You see nobles starting out on one side shifting to another then going back to their old side, such as the weathercock Lord John Wenlock who commanded the Lancastrian center at Tewkesbury. Somerset succeeded in routing Yorkist Lord Hastings' wing but Wenlock for some inexplicable reason held back. Somerset's men were pushed back and eventually slaughtered. Somerset rode back to demand an explaination but as Wenlock sputtered out his excuse Somerset brained him with his battle axe.

Best of luck
Lord Clare

[dclare4]

Factions I used were:

Yorkist (Richard of York and Edward of March)
Gloucester (Richard of Gloucester) - this was meant to be played during the 'Late' period and the Yorkist faction would not appear sorta like Russia/Novgorod.

Lancaster (Queen Margaret and minor Lanc nobles)

Tudor (Jasper, Owen and Henry) - this is the Lancastrian counterpart to Gloucester in the 'Late' period.

Buckingham (Humphrey and Henry Stafford, Earl of Stafford as well) - normally Lancastrian leaning but during R3's period they switched allegiance then switched back.

Courtenay (Hugh and Thomas) - this is a very good choice if you want another faction. They are the most powerful West Country family after the Somersets (Beaufort w/c are attached to the Lanc/Tudor factions automatically). See my previous post for the story of their feud with the Bonvilles w/c rivalled the Percy-Neville feud up north.

Percy - Northumberland, wind-changing and wily. Nuff said.

Neville - the younger Salisbury/Warwick branch. Nuff said.

Minor Nobility - these should represent the various minor branches of nobles who were nevertheless pretty important to sway to either side. A big drawback of the system though is the need to conquer all the map rather than ruling through alliances and buffer vassal states (w/c is really what feudalism is all about) so these could be subsumed into the major Lanc/York factions. Chief noble here should be, I think, Lord Audley (James le Touchet).

Norfolk - actually Norfolk remained neutral through most of the earlier conflict so perhaps you could make a 'Duke of Norfolk' building w/c would have to be built by the Yorkist player before bringing him in. Otherwise he can be a standalone faction - but since he's normally Yorkist he can be subsumed into the main factions.

De La Pole - Earl and later Duke of Somerset with the younger branch being Earl of Lincoln. They start out as Lancastrian supporters but by the main period of the wars (after old William de la Pole, England's 'merchant prince' is murdered) the younger generation led by John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln, joins the Yorkists (their cousins by marriage&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and lead the last Yorkist attempt on the throne ending in the bloody battle of Stoke.

Talbot - Earl of Shrewsbury, hero of the HYW (and Shakespeare's hero of Henry VI part 1) KIA at Chatillion, this old warhorse was loyal to a fault to the family of the Great Harry (V) and are Lancastrian throughout the wars.

Bourchier - Earl of Essex, this family was York's administrative wing, administering the kingdom while the others fought the wars (though they fought to fulfill their feudal duties).

Holland - Duke of Exeter, they were Lancastrian throughout, being half-relatives of the Plantagenet family.

Realistically, only certain families had the right to 'claim' the throne - Plantagenet of Lancaster and York of course, Beaufort of Somerset (from an illegitimate royal line), Tudor (quite a weak claim actually, being descended from Kate Valois and her Welsh dance instructor, Owain Tywdr, but legalized by Henry VI and, with the marriage to Margaret Beaufort, some Plantagenet blood entered their veins), Stafford of Buckingham (a royal cousin), de la Pole (third generation after one of York's daughters married into the family) and Holland (illegitimate branch again).

Hope this helps,
Clare