SPIES

[The_678]

I have over 40 valour 3 spies in Novgorod, the governor there has 0 dread and piety the King is the 3rd in ten years and still I can only get their Loyalty down to 104% I had heard that spies were downgraded in VI but this is a little too much. Come on 40 Spies With 2 more spies coming in every year. Also their taxes are set at Low

[motorhead]

In VI spy effectiveness is lower and seems that anything over 4-6 spies has no effect. Personally I like it better, spy rushing makes the game too easy. If you are a different religion move in religious agents. Loyalty will go down as the people move away from their ruler's religion. Or, if they hold Latvia or Lithuania, try stirring up things there as these provinces are more prone to rebellions. You can also try using spies to dig up dirt on the governor of your target province. You might turn up some negative happiness vices.

[The_678]

This is the last province they own and they have 99% Catholic in it and their governer has 0 everything. This really sucks because their King is now Inveulnerable. Good new though about the 6 spy thing so I can move those 50 other spies out of there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[The_678]

The Province finally rebelled I sent about 30 of the 60 spies to find vices on the King. They found out he was an assasinator which lowered the happiness by 40. After that two and a half stacks of vikings and archers and peasents showed and forced the King and his heirs into the fort. It sort of sucks when you have 60 v3 spies and the province still won't rebel.

[Vanya]

GAH

This is what happens when you rush inexperienced chaps through training just so you can get a quick pair of expendable GLG-20s.

GAH

[Revenant69]

Wow this is the cheapest strategy of them all. I personally have no sympathy with your "plight" - spy rushing is disgusting IMHO. I never have more than 1 spy in a province, they just guard my provinces from enemy assassins.

There are other ways of winning - like sending your army there.

*turns away in disgust*

[The_678]

I usually never do either but in every game when I've attacked the Nogordians (sp?) the rest of the world turns on me. I am just not ready yet to take on the world. This is also the first time I've ever "spy rushed" before and I wanted to check it out. I was very dissapointed. It's not fair that I have the whole steppes and when I attack the Russians the whole world turns on me so I decided to try a "Spy Rush".
Please understand my curiosity. I do not wish to lose your respect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Revenant69]

Quote[/b] ]Please understand my curiosity. I do not wish to lose your respect

Yeah its no biggie I guess. I just dont like using cheap tactics IMO they ruin the fun of the game. But hey its your game.

In terms of everyone turning on you - it is inevitable if you play Total Domination. Thats one of the reasons why i play GA games http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers,
Rev

[Razor1952]

Well, spies do work , however only in certain situations.


-use them say about 4-6 only(as suggested above)but only on provinces with already low loyalty.

This is certainly much less effective than in 1.0 or 1.1 but hey, why should spies be able to provoke revolt in very loyal provinces anyway? Using them only where loyalty was very low anyway to force it under 100% seems fair enough for me.

Of course the main problem is bf's catching your advanced spies.

Also the other problem is that IMHO they should be used early on in the game , unfortunately that can onlt be overcome by modding, later on when you're going for 100% domination, why bother?

[The Storyteller]

Spy rushing's not cheap... its very Sun Tzu, in fact http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Lord_PH]

yeah, sabotage abilty in VI has taken a huge hit, making spies less effective. yet, they still should be recruited, mainly to guard your provinces from lurking enemy assasins or other spies.

i really loved using spies in STW. they rocked, especially when you could get them so early in the game

[Crash]

Quote[/b] (The Storyteller @ Sep. 23 2003,04:35)]Spy rushing's not cheap... its very Sun Tzu, in fact http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I agree. If I wanted to use just military power, I would have won my current campaign over 200 hundred years ago (current year is 1379). So using spies and other agents to win is actually more difficult than just invading with armies. Since I have restrained myself from starting wars with other factions, and taking more than one province from any faction that attacks me, I have to rely on spies, assassins, inquisitors, bishops, princesses, and emissaries to give me something to do when I'm not at war with anyone.

I've been using spy rushing to keep the Spanish bogged down in Central Europe for several decades now. It's the only way I can stop them from expanding without actually going to war with them. Since they are my only real competition in the game, if I go to war with them the game will be soon be over, and I'm not ready for it to end quite yet - I want to extend the game all the way to 1453.

[MizuKokami]

it would be nice if my spies could find hidden vices a little easier, tho i suppose it wouldn't be nice to have the enemy spies find out my hidden vices easily....oh well, can't have everything....give me good spies, and i will rule the world. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[motorhead]

Using special agents in a restrained, limited manner is fine, and even a matter of survival for some small factions at the start. But, to me, spy rushing implies a free-for-all assault on the world, not a limited tap-tap on a few select provinces. I've used agents extensively in two past campaigns and got bored and quit them. Why? It became apparent my agents were so overpowering that world conquest was a foregone conclusion. The French, German and Swiss all toppled within 5 turns as my stable of grand inquisitor, inquisitors, assasins and spies went to work and reduced about 25 provinces into rebellion. I bought MTWar, not MTSubversion.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]I bought MTWar, not MTSubversion.

that`s the main point for me at least. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

anyway, it`s more or less a moot point once yet get VI.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Crash]

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Sep. 23 2003,11:08)] It became apparent my agents were so overpowering that world conquest was a foregone conclusion. The French, German and Swiss all toppled within 5 turns as my stable of grand inquisitor, inquisitors, assasins and spies went to work and reduced about 25 provinces into rebellion. I bought MTWar, not MTSubversion.
What difficulty level were you playing at? The higher the difficulty level, the harder it is for the AI faction to stop rebellions and civil wars. My agents have never had such success, never came close to toppling a strong faction. Maybe that's the difference, I restrain myself from attacking weak factions with either agents or armies, unless they attack me first. Even if I am at war with a weak faction, I will only take one province from them, and try to get a ceasefire - they usually agree. I figure a weak faction will either be conquered by another faction or fall into rebellion eventually.

I send my agents only against strong factions that are a threat to me. I leave the others alone. I know it's strange way of playing, but I enjoy the nation building aspect of strategy games, so this style allows me to play a game that lasts from the beginning of Early to the end of Late.

[Revenant69]

rant
I know that Sun Tzu talks about spies, and I know they are an important part of the game. The gripe that i have is when people (ab)use them in such a way as to make playing the game boring. 40 spies flooding into one province???? That is just wrong IMHO. Same tendencies unfortunatly hapen in other games. RTS's come to mind where the "rushing" tactic is very predominant.

I don't know, maybe i am absolutely wacked in the head or something, but I play this game to enjoy it, to fight epic battles vs Golden Horde, to build different buildings, to fine tune my Empire, to keep my favorite units alive and constanly upgrade them, to enjoy seeing my Empire repel attacks from Sicilian pirates or Byzantine Legions etc etc.

I do NOT play this game to find the best fastest least bloody way to achieve victory and be able to finish the game in a day. I do not play this game to abuse the faults of the AI or to exploit certain "features" i.e. bugs.

To put it plainly, It takes more than 1 day to build an Empire.
/rant

[ShaiHulud]

Up until my present game (as Hungary), I'd never used spies in anything save a defensive mode. I tell ya, dragging 20+ spies across the scrolling map, from Serbia to Valencia, say, is a pain.

However, I still view my present use, to cause a revolt against Spain, as defensive. My special rules don't allow me to declare war and I must ALWAYS obey the Pope. So, keeping the burgeoning Spainish armies whittled down, as they fight insurrection, is a viable AND historical strategem.

And the Pope and me, we be mates I have over 100K florins and he still sends me a thousand periodically to reward my pious monarchs. Also, he's the only ally who has never deserted me.

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] (Crash @ Sep. 23 2003,13:48)]
Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Sep. 23 2003,11:08)] It became apparent my agents were so overpowering that world conquest was a foregone conclusion. The French, German and Swiss all toppled within 5 turns as my stable of grand inquisitor, inquisitors, assasins and spies went to work and reduced about 25 provinces into rebellion. I bought MTWar, not MTSubversion.
What difficulty level were you playing at? The higher the difficulty level, the harder it is for the AI faction to stop rebellions and civil wars. My agents have never had such success, never came close to toppling a strong faction. Maybe that's the difference, I restrain myself from attacking weak factions with either agents or armies, unless they attack me first. Even if I am at war with a weak faction, I will only take one province from them, and try to get a ceasefire - they usually agree. I figure a weak faction will either be conquered by another faction or fall into rebellion eventually.

I send my agents only against strong factions that are a threat to me. I leave the others alone. I know it's strange way of playing, but I enjoy the nation building aspect of strategy games, so this style allows me to play a game that lasts from the beginning of Early to the end of Late.

Either on hard or expert, but even if on expert it wouldn't have mattered. IIRC I had 4 grand inq (5-7 valour), over a fifteen inquisitors (half in the 5-7 valour range), and some spies&assasins. But it was the G-Inqs and Inqs who did all the dirty work. The lower valour Inqs were kept moving around and upping zeal (by this point most of europe was in the 60+ zeal range - royals burn nicely over 60), and my heavy hitters were burning kings/princes/generals like they were kindling. Spies and assasins followed up invasions to secure loyalty and eliminate enemy agents. If I had continued on this path against all catholic factions, I'd easily control 50+ provinces, and by then the game is really over.
My point was it's possible to do this, and not very difficult. The AI never tried to assasinate my religious agents who were gutting their royal line. The AI is simply helpless against special agents, so anyone strutting around and patting themselves on the back for winning the game by exploiting the AI's glaring weakness really hasn't accomplished much IMO.

edit: forgot to mention if you keep pounding away with inquisitors (3-4 attacks by low level inqs.) even on high piety targets, eventually they get atheist (-8 piety), then roll in the grandInqs and you have charcoal. No AI faction is safe from this tactic, I can't even remember how many times I burned the pope.

[Crash]

Wow, I didn't know that Grand Inquisitors could be so powerful. I think I'll make it one of my rules not exploit that hole in the game. I have not used Grand Inquisitors very much, and I never will, so I'll stick to spy rushing and assassins for now. Building Cardinals should be okay since they are more defensive in nature. My main rule, above all others, is NOT to exploit unreasonable holes in the game.

[The Storyteller]

I find this talk of agent abuse quite strange. I don't find it cheap to spy rush. Yes, its Medieval Total WAR and not Medieval Total Subversion, but don't forget the word TOTAL. Its TOTAL war, not Medieval one hand tied behind my back war...

I sympathise with people who already know they can beat the AI, and are forced to limit themselves somewhat to have decent game... but I still don't think spy rushing should be labelled as cheap.

[motorhead]

/rant
Imagine if the programmers had allowed the AI factions (pre-VI, VI capped spy effectiveness) to rush 40 spies at your lands and you were utterly powerless to stop a wave of rebellions. The forums would be awash in 'the computer cheats' rants.
Some players take measures (agents only inside empire, no spies, no border forts, etc) that I don't follow because, to me, it would reduce the enjoyment of the game. By all means, it's your game, use it to your enjoyment. It just pi$$e$ me off when someone writes a post saying "MUST READ GREAT WAY TO WIN" then what they describe is just a cheat/exploit ==> something the AI is unable to defend against. The AI is cannot adapt, even after you've burned/assasinated their 20th general.
Imagine MTW were multiplayer, and I used spy rushing against other human players. Perhaps once or twice a game this tactic should succeed before they take countermeasures to stop it. But would it be any great achievement if I used it constantly and game after game the other players were too dumb to counter it??? Would I brag if I already controlled 90% of the map, then used cheap tactics to finish off my last enemies??? It would be like a grown man playing basketball against a 5 year old and celebrating a slam dunk. Then, to top it off, some cheesehead comes on and says "yes, you are quite wise my son, very Sun Tzu. You are truly a student of his teachings" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
\rant

[The Storyteller]

If the other players were too dumb to counter it, they would deserve what they got. If a team of 5 year olds entered the NBA tournament, nobody would pull any punches. Its a deadly serious game. If it were a friendly basketball match between father and son, say, it would be different.

It's a computer game. If you want to play it through sending your troops to the battlefield, by all means. I'm just saying that its not cheap to win through subterfuge;in fact its more realistic. The best battle is no battle at all.

The world is in a constant state of war, with countries using diplomacy, subterfuge and economic warfare to ensure they come out tops. Its not apparent, but it happens.

I like to play the game like I'm supposed to protect the people within my borders, like a real leader would. Everytime I kill one of the enemy's people without losing one of mine, its a small victory. So if I rouse the peasants of a province to riot, and my enemy loses half its army putting down that revolt, I'm taking damned good care of my people.

I'm not saying people should brag about their having done this, nor am I saying the game isn't more fun by playing by your own 'hardcore rules' to challenge yourself. I just don't think spy rushing is cheap. I think its realistic, and, in all probability, Sun Tzu would look on approvingly. Its not like he held back just because the enemy general was a moron, right?

Plus, if a thread is labelled MUST READ GREAT WAY TO WIN, well then OF COURSE its something the AI can't counter. Otherwise it wouldn't be a great way to win, would it? It would be a difficult way to win

[motorhead]

I respect your position on this subject. I'm not saying all agent tactics are cheap all the time. I use agents extensively when I play as Aragon (high) as they are between a rock and a hard place and in my mind subterfuge is ok in that situation. As you said "It's a computer game" and that is exactly why I feel invoking Sun Tzu to compliment a player who is playing a _game_ that only vaguely resembles the realities in which Sun Tzu formulated and implemented his ideas in, is rather silly.

Just a sidebar about real world conflicts that aren't readily apparent. Back in the 80's I had a good friend, a few years older who enlisted in the army (2nd or 3rd Armored, I think, me brain has sprung some leaks over the years http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif ). I know for a fact that he was stationed in the middle east for a time, this was also back when Khadafi (dictator of Libya) was confronting the US (America launched bombing raids into Libya to try and encourage a 'regime change'. Khadafi was drawing his line in the sand declaring Libyan sovereignty extended 200 miles out to sea (into international shipping lanes). Anyway, my friend said his unit and others, around 75,000 troops total, were moved into Egypt (that's how long ago it was, Egypt was actually friendly). They were moved up to within a mile of the border with Libya, told to 'lock and load' == put live magazines into their weapons, and a sure indication that they were minutes away from crossing the border. Last minute they were ordered to stand-down and withrew from the border. After this brush with invasion, Libya suddenly stopped making waves and clammed up, but the reason behind why this occured never made the news.

Note: This guy wasn't some gung-ho blowhard. He went into the military strictly to get some education thru the GI bill. He sounded more scared about nearly going into real combat than trying to blow smoke.

[The Storyteller]

True, true... We shall agree to disagree http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I must admit though, I wish the AI made MUCH better use of spies to destablise my lands.

[BDC]

I once burnt the Pope as a heretic. It made it all worthwhile. Didn't half take ages either. Plus the pop-up screen doesn't work; they never expected anyone to be so determined with their Grand Inquisitor... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[tuopaolo]

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Sep. 24 2003,13:21)]Either on hard or expert, but even if on expert it wouldn't have mattered. IIRC I had 4 grand inq (5-7 valour), over a fifteen inquisitors (half in the 5-7 valour range), and some spies&assasins. But it was the G-Inqs and Inqs who did all the dirty work. The lower valour Inqs were kept moving around and upping zeal (by this point most of europe was in the 60+ zeal range - royals burn nicely over 60), and my heavy hitters were burning kings/princes/generals like they were kindling. Spies and assasins followed up invasions to secure loyalty and eliminate enemy agents. If I had continued on this path against all catholic factions, I'd easily control 50+ provinces, and by then the game is really over.
My point was it's possible to do this, and not very difficult. The AI never tried to assasinate my religious agents who were gutting their royal line. The AI is simply helpless against special agents, so anyone strutting around and patting themselves on the back for winning the game by exploiting the AI's glaring weakness really hasn't accomplished much IMO.

edit: forgot to mention if you keep pounding away with inquisitors (3-4 attacks by low level inqs.) even on high piety targets, eventually they get atheist (-8 piety), then roll in the grandInqs and you have charcoal. No AI faction is safe from this tactic, I can't even remember how many times I burned the pope.
I've actually seen the AI assasinate Inquisitors in MTW 1.1. The AI also assasinates my Bishops. In one game whenever I sent a Bishop to a certain province he would get assasinate within a couple years. After I lost about 3 Bishops I stopped sending Bishops to that province. There were a few other provinces where this happened too. I guess the AI had some good assasins in these provinces.

In my current game I had about 7 Inquisitors/Grand Inquisitors. Now I have about 5.

I didn't used to see a lot of assasinations before. Maybe I'm seeing more because I'm starting in Late instead of Early and so the AI has more provinces from which to build assasins? Or maybe it's because I modded the game slightly by changing the cost of agents (I made spies cost 250 and assassins cost 300 which makes assassins much cheaper relative to spies so maybe the AI builds less spies and more assassins? ... I also made Bishops and Cardinals more expensive and upped the cost of Grand Inquisitors)

[gaelic cowboy]

burnt the pope surely some mistake i thought it was impossible to do it it never worked for me at least

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (gaelic cowboy @ Oct. 16 2003,15:45)]burnt the pope surely some mistake i thought it was impossible to do it it never worked for me at least
It does work, you need to make sure Zeal is near 100% (not hard to do near Rome, just burn all the Pope's Generals for practice)

Use a real high valor Grand Inquisitor start trying him over and over, eventually he will be declared an atheist and his Piety will take a massive knock.

Also make sure there are no Bishops around.

If the Pope has a higher dread rating, that in turn will increase the chance of a good burning. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[NewJeffCT]

Gee, I get inquisitors and grand inquisitors and other religious agents assassinated all the time in both 1.0 and now 1.1. My normal practice is that by some time during the HIGH era, I like to have a bishop (or alim) in every province on the board. One time, I was in the process of doing that and got seven Orthodox bishops in neighboring provinces in Eastern Europe assassinated in one year I guess the people of Novgorad have a problem with Catholics?

[NewJeffCT]

And, I have seen a dramatic drop in spy effectiveness from just 1.0 to 1.1

[lancer63]

My spies get killed so fast in other lands that I only use them as home gestapo weeding out disloyal ungrateful generals.

[ToranagaSama]

Some of you people are funny.

Basic Rules for respectable players:

1) DO NOT engage in Tactics that the AI does not and/or cannot.

2) D0 N0T, knowlingly, take advantage of the AI--PERIOD

Spy flooding is lame simply because the AI cannot OR does not "counter". Consequently, WHAT justification can there be?

They are all ganging up on me---is lame as an excuse.

They are ganging up on you because you have yet to MASTER the game, and engaging in Spy Flooding won't help you to do so.

In essence, you are moving too fast and not consolidating your gains. The game allows you to do this, BUT the consequence is what you are experiencing. If you don't like it, then go slower. Then again, you all do what you want as long as you enjoy it.

END STORY.

[The Storyteller]

Of course we all do what we want, so long as we enjoy it. I personally don't make extensive use of spies, not least because the computer builds BFs quite quickly. I just object to labelling people who do use spy flooding as a tactic as 'not respectable players'.

[ToranagaSama]

OMG It's the PC Police....runnnnnn.

Gosh, I used the word "respectable" in a deliberate effort at PCness. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[The Storyteller]

PC? Nah... there's always SOMEONE who will be offended... why bother to even try? (Even if the someone is me. I may object, but least it doesn't get boring) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The Wizard]

Nowadays my spies get caught the moment they enter the enemy's kingdom... not that I care, I rely a lot more on assassins. But mainly on my armies of ready, bloodthirsty troops. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[TheSilverKnight]

I usually have somewhere around 10 valour 7 spies anywhere at any one time. Usually inciting uprisings and then giving me information about enemy armies and stuff.

[TheSilverKnight]

and once, I had a 6 star grand inquisitor and I burned 4 Popes in 20 years. Was quite fun..very fun actually

[Bevan of Hertfordshire]

Spies are poopy, i only use assasins to counter other assasins and use inquisitors on everything else

Happy 200 posts silver knight http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif