Swabian swordsmen

[katar]

i have just started using these guys in VI with MedMod 2.04, and i think they rock http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

anyone else used them? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Mount Suribachi]

Not yet, but I've come up against them. They are the only thing I've come across in Early that can defeat AUMs. In fact, they go through them like a hot knife through butter.

When the patch comes out, my first new campaign shall be as the HRE to unleash the SS upon mine enemies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jxrc]

I used them in mass numbers for the first time yesterday.

Downhill charge with six units against the flank of a big fat bunch of Hungarian Slav warriors, spearmen and jogaby. Moreover my general has 6 stars while his opponent had only two.

Odds were really in my favour but I was surprised by the result.

That really was mass slaughter at his bloodiest.

I lost something like 20 men to kill more than 400. The funny thing is that most of my men were killed when pursuing routers ...

These guys are great so far and seem as good as the huscarls. I need to check them against better units and horses to make sure but so far so good.

Not its about 1180 and I have started to produce one unit every year. they should be some left by the end of the game.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Fortebraccio]

I wonder why CA decided to allow production of zweihander wielding troops in Early. I'd mod the game to make them available in Late.

[The_678]

Yeah I really love the SS http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif These guys rock. One of my favourite new units. It just sucks that they can only be built in Swabia. It would be cool if they were buildable anywhere naturally without modding.

[Brutal DLX]

Generally speaking, Swabian Swordsmen are sort of Vikings with armour, which is a dangerous combination. They don't fare too well against cavalry, but can hold a while if on their own, and generally only have to fear Militia Sergeants and the like. Best used as flankers and heavy shock troops.
The problem lies in the building requirements. If you want to use them, you need to allocate a lot of money from your tight budget to Swabia, you need to build a castle, and level 2 swordsmith, IIRC, and normally that takes time as it isn't a good idea to neglect the development of your other provinces.
So, by the time you can build them (don't forget the rather high cost) the High Era is around the corner and you can't produce them in significant numbers.
I for my part modded the game to make them avalaible in both Early and High Era.

As for the bihander comment, bihanders have been around for a long time, during the dark age and even before, so it's not unhistorical. In the game, bihanders are also used by the Gallowglass warriors and the Scottish claymore swords are also rather large, I think http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]As for the bihander comment, bihanders have been around for a long time, during the dark age and even before, so it's not unhistorical. In the game, bihanders are also used by the Gallowglass warriors and the Scottish claymore swords are also rather large, I think

the claymore is big, but is single handed.
the sword of a gallowglass is a lot longer and is definately twohanded. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Quote[/b] ]The problem lies in the building requirements. If you want to use them, you need to allocate a lot of money from your tight budget to Swabia, you need to build a castle, and level 2 swordsmith, IIRC, and normally that takes time as it isn't a good idea to neglect the development of your other provinces.


that is true, but it is always nice to have something that can give the enemy a nasty headache. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

it all depends on you situation and money, as whether it is worthwhile to build any type of specialist unit. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Fortebraccio]

What surprised me is that Greatswords appear in HRE's armies in Early and then disappear in the later periods that would most likely see them employed on the battlefield. Reducing the availability of such weapons to Gallowglasses makes little sense to me. As soon as pikes make their way into the game, I'd enjoy the appearance of flamberge wielding troops to counter them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ShadesWolf]

I believe these are an awesome unit.

when used with a combination of Slav units they become very effective.

Usually I use them the same way as I use Byzan Var's. Keep the in reserve for a little while, allow my Spearmen to take the bulk of the fight to the enemy and then quickly and sharp hit the attackers with everything that I have usually four units of these and one each of the Slave units.

[lancer63]

I don't know why there can't be SS's in late in high and late periods. Two handed greatswordsmen were the natural enemies of pikemen and it continued even into the renaissance with the landscknets (spl)and only dissapeared when firearms began to show real worth on the field.
Have yet to meet those SS guys, but have had plenty of chances to dance with the gallows, and if those german guys are like armored gallows then they should be in for a good show. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[katar]

gallowglasses were still around in Ireland in the sixteenth centuary, when they fought against the forces of Queen Elizabeth I of England.

[hrvojej]

So, people have actually seen the AI build and use them in an unmodded game?

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]So, people have actually seen the AI build and use them in an unmodded game?


i`m only using VI with MedMod 2.04, never saw them before that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Dhepee]

I'm modding it so that there are two-handed broadswords in the late period. It's not a very sophisticated mod. I just copied the Swabian Swordsmen info, changed the name to flamberge' Swordsmen, and I am playing with their stats. I am trying to increase their attack and also give them a bonus against spearmen, but in the name of balance making them weaker against cavalry. I figure that given the physics of handling a sword, espcially a two-handed sword it is not feasible to be strong against a mounted soldier. Imagine cutting upwards, without letting the momentum of the blow take effective control from you, and maintaing a guard position. .(I've fenced for a number of years and done some historical fencing for fun, so I know a little bit about it) I would like people's input on their speed. Do you think that they should move faster, slower, or the same. I don't want to ruin play balance.
I'm taking into account that a swordsmen was a step above the commoner but below the knight. They still had a chance of earning a knighthood on the battlefield being the younger or poorer sons of lesser landowners. Or they were knights who could not afford, or had lost, their horse and gear, so they would have a bias against striking the horse to bring down the rider. They call it chivalry, but if you captured the man you got to keep the horse and armour so there was a financial incentive. This all adds up to a unit that won't do well against horses, but if you have a spear watch the #@* out and if you're an archer taking potshots at their general you really better watch the #@* out.
It's low tech because I'm not changing their skins. If I get ambitious I'll change the skins, but mostly I just want to play test it and get it online.

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]I figure that given the physics of handling a sword, espcially a two-handed sword it is not feasible to be strong against a mounted soldier. Imagine cutting upwards, without letting the momentum of the blow take effective control from you, and maintaing a guard position

Chivalric code or not if the situation was desperate enough who is going risk the trouble of swinging upwards at the rider? The chivalric code only holds sway over the battlefield provided both contestants are of similar ideology and decide to play by the same rules. The Mamluks were fairly 'chivalrous' sort and yet they almost always aimed at their enemies' horses; better to ensure a hit than risk being overrun.

No matter how you 'slice' it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif a horse's legs are a far easier target for a two handed sword than the guy riding on top. Take down the horse and you take down the rider. Period. Knight, Noble or otherwise, a rider becomes easy pickings for any type of weapon once he's been thrown from his mount and sprawled on the ground (or better yet, trapped beneath his horse's writhing body). Agincourt saw unhorsed French knights (unhorsed by bodkin arrowheads fired from longbows to boot) being slain by English soldiers as they lie wounded or helpless in the deep mud. Not to mention the outright murder of French prisoners of war (knights and men-at-arms) after the battle was over. Looks like the chivalric code took a vacation during the 100 Years War. One statistic military history books rarely touch on are the appalling loss of horses on the battlefield.

Last but not least, protection from arrows is not the only reason armor was developed for warhorses. Code of ethics is one thing but there's nothing like having a tangible insurance policy covering one of your most expensive investments to give you peace of mind.

[Dhepee]

Quote[/b] (Spino @ Sep. 25 2003,16:09)]A horse's legs are a far easier target for a two handed sword than the guy riding on top. Take down the horse and you take down the rider. Knight, Noble or otherwise, a rider becomes easy pickings for any type of weapon once he's been thrown from his mount and sprawled on the ground (or better yet, trapped beneath his horse's writhing body).
That's a good point and one that I was debating, which is why I put it out there. Not going for the horses is a chivalric ideal but we all know how well ideals stand up in combat.
Still this is my concern. I don't want these guys to be too powerful and wreck the balance of the game. It's no fun to have a "super unit" that takes over the field. So I have two ideas as to why they are going to be weak against cavalry.

1) Assuming they are facing the cavalry head on, the cavalry isn't going to stand still, it will move towards them. They have no shield and light armour, as they are on foot and carrying a two handed weapon. The momentum of the forward moving cavarly will knock them back and given the shape of a horse the Flamberge' men won't have a clear shot at the horses' legs. Even if they take out the front riders they are exposed, see below, to the second ranks counterattack, and once that is brought home the flamberge lose momentum. If they attack the flank they have a better chance but the cavalry can break off and counterattack.

2) A man swings a two handed sword in a horizonatl arc, right to left or left to right. The horse's chest and upper body are protected by armour, so that's out, therefore he swings at the legs making a slight downward motion. The inertia drives him forward and down, he is in danger of grounding his blade and even if he doesn't he has to bring it back into position, all the time leaving himself unguarded. Remember he has no shield, his armour is probably fairly light, since he's on foot, and the momentum has carried him forward. His back, the back of his head, and the back of his neck are all exposed until he can get the sword back up. The cavalry is also carrying a longer weapon, so he might not be able to reach them before he is hit. This makes him very vulnerable.

[DemonArchangel]

Hence Gothic Foot Knights (Those badass motherf**kers make me cry with joy every time they destroy a formation)

[Dhepee]

Do Gothic Foot Knights use a one or a two hander?

[Psyco]

Am I the only one that noticed that their swords look "awkward", aka poles?
but that aside, they are awsome

[Mount Suribachi]

Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ Sep. 23 2003,23:11)]So, people have actually seen the AI build and use them in an unmodded game?
The ones I came up against were the result of a loyalist rebellion.

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Psyco @ Sep. 25 2003,21:39)]Am I the only one that noticed that their swords look "awkward", aka poles?
More like pogo sticks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
So it would seem that you have to mod the building preferences to face them. Oh well, once the patch is out...

[bighairyman]

a six star rebel general with 60 SS slice through TWO units of high royal knights each with 3 valors. and 1 was attack from the rear. and i lost http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif . you know how many royal knights i got left after the battle? 16 out of 40. you know how many SS were left. 35 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Brutal DLX]

No surprise there. After the charge, it's all out melee, and v6 swordsmen have the weapons, armour and morale to fend off those knights.
Now, if one charged multiple times, one should be able to rout/slay them.

[Hamburglar]

When they're standing still it looks like their swords are kind of just floating there.


and even when they run around it looks really weird.

It seems CA didn't really playtest them because they just look totally ridiculous.

Oh well they're good to use though.

[bighairyman]

well, i learn from my mistakes, from there forth, i also had a good infantry stop them, an archery unit and a couple good charge cavalry from behind, but this startgy don't always work

[lancer63]

Last night one of the few SS units I managed to train finished 3 full bedouin camels and 1/2 nubian spears units the front yard of the bulgarian keep. I had forgotten all about them trying to keep my general from being killed in the main yard. And my understrenght SS unit (45 men)were the only ones entering from a flank breach in the wall.
those guys are german huscarles. I´ll train more of those next time.

[Satyr]

I am playing a Medmod 3.14 campaign as the Danes and my Huscarles were getting mopped up by Swabian Swordsmen. Frankly, I was pretty shocked as nothing else had really given my Huscarles much of a challenge. I was forced to eliminate the Germans so that I wouldn't have to face any more. I can't wait to play a German campaign so I can slaughter the world with them.