Looks like a baby to me...

[Devastatin Dave]

Baby in Mommy (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13402217_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-A-SMILE-AT-26-WEEKS-name_page.html)
I think this is great. It will be helpful in helping children with defects in the womb recieve treatment. It also puts a face on the murder of countless millions in the name of choice or as I call it, MURDER. I guess its wrong to kill terrorist but its ok to kill babies... Any opinions out there? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Dhepee]

It's ok to kill whatever you want as long as the law is on your side. Just make sure that your side doesn't lose. (sarcasm, sort of, it's still how the world seems to work)

[Ser Clegane]

Quote[/b] (daveinkorea @ Sep. 22 2003,14:43)]Baby in Mommy (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13402217_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-A-SMILE-AT-26-WEEKS-name_page.html)
I think this is great. It will be helpful in helping children with defects in the womb recieve treatment. It also puts a face on the murder of countless millions in the name of choice or as I call it, MURDER. I guess its wrong to kill terrorist but its ok to kill babies... Any opinions out there? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Dave, I think you will have a hard time finding anybody here on the forum who would approve abortion at week 26 (at that stage only the risk of near certain death at birth for the mother might justify such an action).

While I am pro-choice, time is of course a crucial factor. At some point during month 2-3 I would draw my line - 6-7 months would be totally out of question

[Dhepee]

Quote[/b] (Ser Clegane @ Sep. 22 2003,15:57)]Dave, I think you will have a hard time finding anybody here on the forum who would approve abortion at week 26 (at that stage only the risk of near certain death at birth for the mother might justify such an action).

While I am pro-choice, time is of course a crucial factor. At some point during month 2-3 I would draw my line - 6-7 months would be totally out of question
I heartily agree...despite my previous pessimistic sarcasm. The first post in the thread failed to draw the line that you drew Ser, and it's a line that makes all the difference, 26 weeks and the first trimester are two entirely different things.

[katar]

well Daveinkorea here is the question:

your wife is 26 weeks into her pregnancy, and she is going to die if she doesn`t have an abortion, if you don`t choose, both will die.

and ONLY YOU can decide who lives and who dies, who do YOU choose?

if i was married i would choose my wife.

let me know your choice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Devastatin Dave]

Quote[/b] (katar @ Sep. 22 2003,15:15)]well Daveinkorea here is the question:

your wife is 26 weeks into her pregnancy, and she is going to die if she doesn`t have an abortion, if you don`t choose, both will die.

and ONLY YOU can decide who lives and who dies, who do YOU choose?

if i was married i would choose my wife.

let me know your choice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Its not my choice obviously, that would be left to my wife. That situation appears in less than 1 % of abortions. Most abortions are performed for birth control or forced abortions from China. Also, in America atleast, most abortion clinics are located in poor areas and areas where there is a large minority population. Its silent genocide if you ask me. I just believe that instead of promoting sex in every aspect of life and have a true respect for all life, especially those who have not had thier chance outside the womb, we would be more civilized as a species. But when we call babies fetuses, fetal tissue, or whatever the anti-life crowd are saying these days, we lower life's value and make it easier to kill the innocent.
Going back to my wife, we had discussed what we would do if a situation like that happened. We lost our first child in a miscarraige a few years back. There was no life threatening things for my wife but she had said, no matter what, we would try to save the baby. A few months ago, we had our first child, thank God. I was in Korea for a year without my wife so I came back quite potent http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Anyway, the situation you proposed rarely happens. I don't believe in abortion on demand. Abortions are necessary rarely. But I still feel if we learned to respect ourselves, our sex lives, and sexual partners, there would be no need for abortion on demand. I have my Faith to rely on these problems we all face. Too bad others don't. Good discussion my friend...

[Sigurd]

I am sitting here looking at an ultra scan of my baby-girl age: 18 weeks (23 weeks now)… she tumbles around and does a handstand in my wife’s belly.
She certainly looks like a baby and acts like one. *poignant pause*

I still think (reluctantly at this stage, I might add) the abortion question is a woman’s choice.

[katar]

Sigurd Fafnesbane & daveinkorea

i was thinking in terms of the wife being in a comma, hence leaving the husband to make that dreadfull choice.

i hope both your respective wives and children are in good health and continue to stay that way for many years to come. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Bevan of Hertfordshire]

Congrats to both dave and sigurd http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Devastatin Dave]

Thank you both, sorry for acting like a penis for the past few days. Gota lot on the plate and have really been in an ugly mood. Of course reading tons of antiAmerican sentiment doesn't help either http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (daveinkorea @ Sep. 22 2003,19:34)]
Quote[/b] (katar @ Sep. 22 2003,15:15)]well Daveinkorea here is the question:

your wife is 26 weeks into her pregnancy, and she is going to die if she doesn`t have an abortion, if you don`t choose, both will die.

and ONLY YOU can decide who lives and who dies, who do YOU choose?

if i was married i would choose my wife.

let me know your choice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Its not my choice obviously, that would be left to my wife. That situation appears in less than 1 % of abortions. Most abortions are performed for birth control or forced abortions from China. Also, in America atleast, most abortion clinics are located in poor areas and areas where there is a large minority population. Its silent genocide if you ask me. I just believe that instead of promoting in every aspect of life and have a true respect for all life, especially those who have not had thier chance outside the womb, we would be more civilized as a species. But when we call babies fetuses, fetal tissue, or whatever the anti-life crowd are saying these days, we lower life's value and make it easier to kill the .
Going back to my wife, we had discussed what we would do if a situation like that happened. We lost our first child in a miscarraige a few years back. There was no life threatening things for my wife but she had said, no matter what, we would try to save the baby. A few months ago, we had our first child, thank God. I was in Korea for a year without my wife so I came back quite potent http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Anyway, the situation you proposed rarely happens. I don't believe in abortion on demand. Abortions are necessary rarely. But I still feel if we learned to respect ourselves, our lives, and ual partners, there would be no need for abortion on demand. I have my Faith to rely on these problems we all face. Too bad others don't. Good discussion my friend...
Amen brother Amen

Catholic pro-life movement is right behind you

[Dhepee]

In many respects I am a liberal, but not on abortion. A person must take responsibility for their actions. Birth control is fairly straight forward, and you can always decide not to have sex. Very few people get pregnant by accident, given that the failure rate for condoms is around 3% for all brands, and 1% for the high end brands, or less than 1% for the pill, and most contraceptives fail due to user error. An abortion should not be a solution to carelessness. Yes if a woman was raped or the victim of incest give her RU-486. Sometimes a woman caught up in the trauma of sexual assault will wait to have an abortion (possibly a funtion of denial. I wasn't raped so I am not pregnant), let her have an abortion whenever she comes to grips with the situation. The trauma that she is going through is unimaginable to most of us and should not be compounded by missing a deadline. If a woman is in imminent danger let her have an abortion as soon as it becomes necessary for her survival.

If a woman is careless, negligent, or ignorant don't let her have an abortion. It's called adoption. A couple of times a year you see feature stories in the papers and on TV about how hard it is for couples who cannot have a child to find one to adopt. So what if the mother is embarressed to carry the child to term, so what if it will put a 9 month dent in her social life; it's like my parents used to say you made you bed, now lie in it. People should not be allowed to abdicate responsibility for their actions simply because the consequences are inconvenient.

If you are so irresponsible that you can't correctly use birth control every time that you have sex you have two options.
1) Don't have sex
2) Live with the consequences, raise the child yourself or give it up for adoption, but don't make it suffer death just because you are irresponsible.

Am I putting the onus of this on women, yes. It's called women's rights. Woman have won the right to be independent, to have equal status at equal pay, and the right be free from discrimination based on gender, all of these are good things. However, with rights are responsibilities. One of them is to exercise sufficient care over her body that she does not become casually pregnant. You say your boyfriend doesn't like to wear a condom, so don't have sex with him, it's your choice, you have rights.

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (Dhepee @ Sep. 23 2003,09:13)]In many respects I am a liberal, but not on abortion. A person must take responsibility for their actions. Birth control is fairly straight forward, and you can always decide not to . Very few people get pregnant by , given that the failure rate for s is around 3% for all brands, and 1% for the high end brands, or less than 1% for the pill, and most contraceptives fail due to user error. An abortion should not be a solution to carelessness. Yes if a woman was d or the victim of incest give her RU-486. Sometimes a woman caught up in the trauma of ual assault will wait to have an abortion (possibly a funtion of denial. I wasn't d so I am not pregnant), let her have an abortion whenever she comes to grips with the situation. The trauma that she is going through is unimaginable to most of us and should not be compounded by missing a line. If a woman is in imminent danger let her have an abortion as soon as it becomes necessary for her survival.

If a woman is careless, negligent, or ignorant don't let her have an abortion. It's called adoption. A couple of times a year you see feature stories in the papers and on TV about how hard it is for couples who cannot have a child to find one to adopt. So what if the mother is embarressed to carry the child to term, so what if it will put a 9 month dent in her social life; it's like my parents used to say you made you bed, now lie in it. People should not be allowed to abdicate responsibility for their actions simply because the consequences are inconvenient.

If you are so irresponsible that you can't correctly use birth control every time that you you have two options.
1) Don't
2) Live with the consequences, raise the child yourself or give it up for adoption, but don't make it suffer just because you are irresponsible.

Am I putting the onus of this on women, yes. It's called women's rights. Woman have won the right to be independent, to have equal status at equal pay, and the right be free from discrimination based on gender, all of these are good things. However, with rights are responsibilities. One of them is to exercise sufficient care over her body that she does not become casually pregnant. You say your boyfriend doesn't like to wear a , so don't with him, it's your choice, you have rights.
right on

[Devastatin Dave]

Quote[/b] (Dhepee @ Sep. 23 2003,09:13)]In many respects I am a liberal, but not on abortion. A person must take responsibility for their actions. Birth control is fairly straight forward, and you can always decide not to have sex. Very few people get pregnant by accident, given that the failure rate for condoms is around 3% for all brands, and 1% for the high end brands, or less than 1% for the pill, and most contraceptives fail due to user error. An abortion should not be a solution to carelessness. Yes if a woman was raped or the victim of incest give her RU-486. Sometimes a woman caught up in the trauma of sexual assault will wait to have an abortion (possibly a funtion of denial. I wasn't raped so I am not pregnant), let her have an abortion whenever she comes to grips with the situation. The trauma that she is going through is unimaginable to most of us and should not be compounded by missing a deadline. If a woman is in imminent danger let her have an abortion as soon as it becomes necessary for her survival.

If a woman is careless, negligent, or ignorant don't let her have an abortion. It's called adoption. A couple of times a year you see feature stories in the papers and on TV about how hard it is for couples who cannot have a child to find one to adopt. So what if the mother is embarressed to carry the child to term, so what if it will put a 9 month dent in her social life; it's like my parents used to say you made you bed, now lie in it. People should not be allowed to abdicate responsibility for their actions simply because the consequences are inconvenient.

If you are so irresponsible that you can't correctly use birth control every time that you have sex you have two options.
1) Don't have sex
2) Live with the consequences, raise the child yourself or give it up for adoption, but don't make it suffer death just because you are irresponsible.

Am I putting the onus of this on women, yes. It's called women's rights. Woman have won the right to be independent, to have equal status at equal pay, and the right be free from discrimination based on gender, all of these are good things. However, with rights are responsibilities. One of them is to exercise sufficient care over her body that she does not become casually pregnant. You say your boyfriend doesn't like to wear a condom, so don't have sex with him, it's your choice, you have rights.
Brilliant Post Well stated in a facets...

[motorhead]

I've always been inclined to the pro-choice view, but i've been reconsidering my position. However, it puzzles me when the argument is made that the increased births from banning abortions will not be a problem because people are waiting to scoop them up:

To quote Dhepee: A couple of times a year you see feature stories in the papers and on TV about how hard it is for couples who cannot have a child to find one to adopt.

But what is always left unsaid is this unfullfilled demand applies only to the pink white variety. Tan and chocolate colors are apparently not in fashion. An article at this baby site by a couple seeking to adopt http://www.babycenter.com/essay/4825.html states:

The Caribbean islands of Martinique, Grenada, and Barbados offer free black children to anyone who wants to fly there and pick them up.

Yes, there will be costs associated with adopting a black child from one of these countries, but the going price for a white baby in the USA? Try 50,000 dollars, but hispanic babies are 10,000, and black babies are a bargain at 4,000. Yes, raising a baby of another race presents it's own difficulties. But, where are all the people who cry 'It's murder' when it come times to actually doing the hard work of nuturing that saved life?

So what will happen to the additional non-white babies born if abortion is banned? I don't know what the answers are, but I'd like to hear what you have to say.

[Ser Clegane]

Quote[/b] (motorhead @ Sep. 23 2003,10:43)]But what is always left unsaid is this unfullfilled demand applies only to the pink white variety. Tan and chocolate colors are apparently not in fashion. An article at this baby site by a couple seeking to adopt http://www.babycenter.com/essay/4825.html states:

The Caribbean islands of Martinique, Grenada, and Barbados offer free black children to anyone who wants to fly there and pick them up.

Yes, there will be costs associated with adopting a black child from one of these countries, but the going price for a white baby in the USA? Try 50,000 dollars, but hispanic babies are 10,000, and black babies are a bargain at 4,000. Yes, raising a baby of another race presents it's own difficulties. But, where are all the people who cry 'It's murder' when it come times to actually doing the hard work of nuturing that saved life?

So what will happen to the additional non-white babies born if abortion is banned? I don't know what the answers are, but I'd like to hear what you have to say.
Very good point, motorhead

I would like to add that to prevent unwanted pregnancies it would probably also very helpful to beef up sexual education of teenagers.

Interestingly though the people who a very quick at screaming murder are quite often (not always ) seem to be the same people who oppose proper sexual education at school or do a crappy job themselves with their children at home...

[Dhepee]

Eliminate the adoption market. The reason there is a price tag for children is that a prospective adoptive family is allowed to pay support costs for the natural mother while she is pregnant. In theory it is so that she has a place to stay, nutritious food, and medical care, in reality the baby is being bought. It is illegal to buy a baby outright, make it illegal to buy a baby indirectly. In Florida a couple of years ago there was a case where a woman was running a de facto baby farm. Elminate the use of adoption agencies that charge finders fees, etc. Make adoption the exclusive domain of the state, there should be no money changing hands. Make international adoptions more difficult, if not impossible. We should take care of our children first and other countries' children only after we are done with ours. Create better state funded foster homes for children that are not easy to find families for, so that they have a shot at life. There are a lot of possible solutions that don't involve terminating the pregnancy solely because the child is unwanted.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]So what will happen to the additional non-white babies born if abortion is banned?

everyone looses on this one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Dhepee]

Quote[/b] (katar @ Sep. 23 2003,12:25)]everyone looses on this one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
You're right. Everyone does lose, because of a lack of responsibility. It's not really the responsibility of the state or prospective adoptive parents to pick up the slack and take in unwanted children. It's not really fair that a child conceived is not brought to term because it was unplanned. It's the fault of people who are irresponsible enough to produce unplanned pregnancies in a society that offers myriad safe effective forms of contraception that are readily available.

If you need a license to drive a car, you should need a license to screw. I'm sorry sir until you pass the written portion of the exam you don't get the key back to your chastity belt, and no sir there is no road test http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Devastatin Dave]

Very sad topic, I wish there was some common ground... Too bad people can't be issued responsibilioty... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Scipio]

ya i agree it is a sad topic so why do you start them? that kat one two. I dont get it?

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] (Scipio @ Sep. 23 2003,21:15)]ya i agree it is a sad topic so why do you start them? that kat one two. I dont get it?
I have to agree. It seems more like topic baiting to get some attention (and he got me to bite http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ). I mean, this site is totalwar.org, with members who play STW or MTW, right? Not hot-topic.com or social-commentary.com or speak-your-mind.com. I'm all for free speech and expression, but is this really the site for these kinds of discussions??? And isn't there a Non-Game Related section on this board for those who really wish to indulge??? Let's put the war back into totalwar.org. my 2 bits

edit: or maybe we need 'Entrance Hall - Game Related' and 'Entrance Hall - Non-Game Related'. I like to come to the entrance hall and help out with noob questions, but looks like i'll restrict myself to the main hall from now on.

[el_slapper]

I do not have a strong stance on abortion question. Though, I've read some stupid things there. Not about abortion itself, but about what might lead to it : sexual behaviour

Sex is an instinct, & most modern western societies have a very strong social bias that pushes towards more sexual activity. Especially in teen ages. In other words, there WILL be many sexual activity. You can't law againt the wind.

Currently, that situation leads to several pregnant teenagers. I see 3 ways to react.

1)It is good, as we lack children. We just need to adapt our structures, high schools & colleges to that amount of babies. I don't see it as bad, but most would see it as a burden on girl's shoulders, so maybe let's forget it.

2)Where is the problem? Let's abort them?Nearly the current situation. Not counting your moral/ethical debates(in wich I do not want to involve), abortion is costly, in both medical(body & psych) & financial terms. So maybe not.

3)It's people's fault. They shouldn't have sex. Full crap, as these are usually under 18 & unexperimented, so prone to errors, vulnerable to their own instincts & social pressure. Sex denial/control is furthermore part of people's control, as frustrated ones are more prone to hide/fight their instincts, and less prone to think about more important things, as what their gov is doing, or whatever.....

4)OK, they have sex, let's educate them stronger towards safe sex, so that they won't be surprised by accidents. My personal preferred way. Prepare children to the real things they'll meet, not a moral induced behaviour they'll mostly ignore. It's moral not to abort, yet they do. It's moral not to have sex outside marriage, yet they do. IMHO is reality more important than imaginary moral.

[katar]

el_slapper

nicely argued man, i`ll go with #4 as it`s the most reasonable and least painful choice available, and most likely to work. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Drucius]

Well, you guys are really on the ball when it comes to abortion I must say. Yes, you men know all about what It's like to have a baby, eh? Obviously, you boys are the most qualified people in the world to talk about what women should do with their bodies.


BTW, wouldn't this topic be better off in the Tavern?

[Iggyred]

Okay here I go with both feet For a long time I was pro-life, my mother and father both taught me about sex, safe sex and the onus being on neither man nor woman but both partners. With these lessons firmly in place I considered the majority of abortions the last resort of stupid people.
However a few years ago I read an article regarding a young woman in Northern Ireland who, as a result of rape, fell pregnant. There where no abortion clinics available and many critisied her decision to come to the UK to abort the child.
I got me thinking though. If that was my sister would I be able to look her in the eye and say 'Okay you were violated but you have no choice but to carry your rapist child'. What kind of life would that give her? or the kid ?
Then I got thinking some more (dangerous stuff this thinking I should limit myself http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif). What if the condom split ? The precautions have been taken to prevent a child. Should this unwanted baby be brought into the world ?
Pro lifers scream 'Murder' when the issue of abortion is brought up while perpirating acts of violence, intimidation and ,lets not forget, murder against the men and women who staff abortion clinics. Do we really want to see the return of back alley abortions and the dangers that they pose ?

[katar]

Quote[/b] ]However a few years ago I read an article regarding a young woman in Northern Ireland who, as a result of rape, fell pregnant. There where no abortion clinics available and many critisied her decision to come to the UK to abort the child.

vaguely remember the case, the girl was in a no win situation as she was getting hassle if she did go to full term with the baby and more hassle if she had the abortion.

there is still a of a lot of stigma against rape victims over here, and going to full term with a rapists child would not make life any easier for her.

yep, i really like living in northenrn ireland. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif