Were the phoenicians of greek origin?

[hellenes]

Ive read a book recently stating that the phoenicians were colonists from greek islands and crete (its called "I Katagogi ton Ellinon" "The Origin of Geeks" and unfortunatly its only in greek :sad: IIRC the authors is called Georgiadis and i forgot the publisher :sad: ) also it names the colonisits Aigeokrites wich means the agean cretans. The book itself is quite critisizing on the Indoeuropean theory wich (according to the writer) is shaky because of the recently found image of horseman in greece (the indoeuropean theory states that the first horses were brought by indoeuropeans to the balkans. The fact that the Carthageneans were phoenician colonists links them (according to the book) to the greek heritage of the greek colonists of middle east during the bronze age. The wide use of phalanx in carthagenean armies is another point of the book. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Hurin_Rules]

I'm not aware of any theory that the phoenecians were Greek colonists. Their languages are very different (phoenician is semitic, Greek is Indo-European), and if I'm not mistaken, the phoenecians developed their written language long before the Greeks. The Phoenicians also appear in history long before the Greeks. The Canaanites, rather than the Greeks, appear to be their ancestors.

[hellenes]

The Indoeuropean THEORY (yes unfortunatly for its supporters its a theory) as i mentioned before states that the greeks were indoeuropeans and not locals but the discovered scripts of linear A and B connect the later greek scripts to an era that the Phoenician writing didnt exist. Also the origin of the greek alphabet is only in theory and speculations phoenician (the interpretation can vary).

[Spino]

I've never heard of this theory before. Carthage was founded by Phoenician settlers sometime between 814-760 B.C. Over the years many Phoenicians did intermarry with native Libyans (Berber/Hamitic peoples?) but barring those ethnic groups I have never seen any mention of Indo-Europeans of any flavor (Greek or otherwise) comprising any of the original settlers. One thing I should point out is Carthage's ruling class consisted of 'blue blood' Phoenician families.

It sounds odd to have a scholar insist that Carthage was founded by Greeks. A bit like saying the Anglos aboard the Mayflower were actually Spaniards

Here is a great website that should answer many of your questions...

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/carthage.htm

[hellenes]

Actually i was wrong about the author his name is Dimopoulos and the book can be ordered in the link
http://www.eleftheriskepsis.gr/esdetails.asp?atc=1&book=61
also the english language books are in the link
http://www.eleftheriskepsis.gr/frbooks....group=0 (http://www.eleftheriskepsis.gr/frbooksdt.asp?category=6&subcategory=1&group=0)
As i said there are theories about everything and the indoeuropean theory is being challenged by many scholars with the new evidence coming on the surface.

[Hurin_Rules]

Are you saying that the Carthaginians were Greeks or that the Phoenicians were?

It seems that the latter is clearly false. There were Phoenicians before there were Greeks, or at least the Phoenicians appear in history well before the Greeks.

The former is possible chronologically, although I haven't seen any evidence that would support it.

[hellenes]

The itroduction of the greeks like a migrating tribe in the balkans is a THEORY wich is being challenged by the newest archeological evidence as the one mentioned in my first post. So there are new theories about the origins of greeks themselves wich place them as native population of the south balckan penincula.

[Lehesu]

Phoenicians, one might call them the early greeks, sprang from the Minoan civilization on Crete.

[hellenes]

Lehesu you couldnt be more right, as did the philisties and many other civs in that area the egyptians called them people of the sea.You CAN call them early greek because of the connection between linear A and B and the more later greek writing.

[Catiline]

THere's no ocnnection between linear A, B and later Greek WRITING. Linear A has yet to be deciphered, Only bits of linear B have and they're pretty contested. It looks likely that linear B is in a language that is the ancestor of classical Greek.

We don't even know the Phoenician name for themselves, Phoenician is a Grek word, though it's exact derivation is unclear. But the Greeks had a fairly strong notion of thier own ethnos, and the phoenicians were definitely 'other'. The Phoenicians are called something different to the Greeks by the egyptians, can't remember exactly what. in the bible they are the Canaanites. the exist well back into the 3rd millenium BC.

[Nowake]

IIRC, linear B was desciphred in the '50.


And Catiline, I guess those were called Philistines?

[Catiline]

The Philistines were different I think, though my bilical knowledge isn't what it should be.

Linear B is deciphered. There are links to the phoenician alphabet but the go from the near East to the Minoans rather than the other way around. It's clearly an early dialect of Greek, but we don't know what all the words are. linear A is a similar script, but it's not at all clear what language is being used.

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]Sometime after 3000BC a people known in the bible as the Canaanites moved into the narrow coastal strip between Anatolia and Palestine. More than any other people they were merchants and sea-going traders. We knew them by their Greek name Phoenicians. Their land was tiny but fertile, and great powers blocked territorial expansion. But the sea was rich with fish and the Phoenicians first put to sea to feed an expanding population.

The Phoenician homeland possessed good natural harbours, which they developed into fortified city-state ports. Their leading bases were Sidon and and Tyre, other ports included Bylos, Berytus and Aradus. Phoenicia never unified, it was a group of allied but independent city-states ruled by merchant kings who avoid war on land but pursued piracy at sea.


I have never seen anything that called the Phoenicians Greek.

The only reference I could find was this
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/moderngreeks/poulianos/

[Vanya]

GAH

Phoenicians are people who live in Phoenix, Arizona.

GAH

[Sir Robin]

While I am only an amatuer historian at best I thought the phonecians were descendants of tribes living in greece and the agean.

I thought the early minoan era tribes of greece were conquered and/or driven out by tribes from the north.

In that case you could say the carthaginians were greek. However by the time of the cathaginian state the old sounthern greek tribes had been conquered/replaced by new northern greek tribes.

[Catiline]

The Phoenicians were in extistence long before the Crete was taken over by Mycenaeans. The Phoenicians have about as much to do with the Greeks as Egyptians, they were different peoples.

[Nowake]

weren't the cretans the followers of the Sea People? that was what I thought.

[Vanya]

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ Sep. 25 2003,08:25)]weren't the cretans the followers of the Sea People? that was what I thought.
GAH

It is a well known fact that to this day, cretins walk among us.

GAH

Phoenicians were the first Palestinians. Vanya sez... maybe the Gaza residents should change their name to Phoenicians again... it would make them think they are phoenixes rising from the ashes. If you have been to Gaza, you'd know its practically a big pile of rubble and ash and bones.

GAH

Phoenicians... 'Phoen' means "communication", and the ending 'cian' means "master of". 'Phoenician' thus means "master of communication". Now, lets delve a little deeper into the context here... do you hear me now? That's right Phoenicians were the world's FIRST long distance carrier They "reached out and touched" the people of North Africa, where they "rolled over" and founded Cartago (er, Carthage for those who speak modern vernacular).

GAH

[Red Peasant]

Lol Well Cat, looks like you got your work cut out here

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

That book sounds like some really intense Greek propaganda...and as if they need it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[JANOSIK007]

Quote[/b] (Hurin_Rules @ Sep. 23 2003,12:40)]The Canaanites, rather than the Greeks, appear to be their ancestors.
The Canaanites are the Phoenicians. They are reffered to as Canaanites by the 12 Hebrew tribes arriving at that place from "the 40 years of wandering the dessert."

You were right to say that Phoenicians had the alphabet before Greeks. It has actually influenced the Greek alphabet in a major way (it's been basically taken up by the Greeks and transformed a bit).

[Nowake]

It is a well known fact that to this day, cretins walk among us. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Vanya's brain still works http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I always thought untill now that reality and fantasy make a big mix in his mind.

[Catiline]

JAN is correct. IIRC te Phoenician alphabet doesn't use any vowels, so the Greeks had to fiddle with it a bit, but basically they got their script form them.

[hellenes]

Although the opinion that the greeks got their alphabet from the phoenicians attracts many modern scholars it is a THEORY none has ever proved by any source that the greeks have taken the phoenician alphabet as the indoeuropean theory (adopted by nazis also to found their uncivilised heritage by hijacking the greek civilisation) finds recently many challengers and many contreversial archeological evidence.

[shingenmitch2]

Huh?

[Kraxis]

Well hellenes can you back it up?

As far as I know the archeological evidence has the Phoenicians writing before the Greeks does. Also the similarity is striking.

Now back to the Sea People, Minoans and Phillistines.
I believe all three are one and the same. The Sea People getting the big by the Egyptians coincide with the eruption of Santorini, which in turn damaged the Minoan culture greatly (and perhaps gave the Myceneans the break to capture Crete), destroying all the northern harbours.
That was one connection.

The other is harder, but the Phillistines only appear around the same time as the Sea People, so it is possible that they went to that area after the Egyptians blocked them. And I believe the archeological finds of their cities have shown them to be quite similar to the Minoan ones and their pottery rather much the same. That might be due to trade, but if the finds go past the 'death' of the Minoans, then it is rather tempting to conclude they were related.

[LestaT]

The Phoenicians are originally an offshoot of the Malay race. They originated in south east asia and travel by sea during the time of dinosaurs. Since the original stone tablet depicting the history were lost during the ice age, I can't show you'll guys any proof... but trust me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[redrooster]

Quote[/b] (LestaT @ Sep. 27 2003,20:34)]The Phoenicians are originally an offshoot of the Malay race. They originated in south east asia and travel by sea during the time of dinosaurs. Since the original stone tablet depicting the history were lost during the ice age, I can't show you'll guys any proof... but trust me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Huh??
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
dun worry, we wun ask you for any proof

[Nowake]

Since the original stone tablet depicting the history were lost during the ice age, I can't show you'll guys any proof... but trust me

why call it an ice age? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ Sep. 27 2003,09:38)]why call it an ice age? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Yeah

If I lived in Africa I would not consider it an Ice Age.

*me looking around*

"Hey, Ugharg Do you see any ice?"

"Eurgh" *translation = huh?*

"Well they call it the Ice Age, but I don't see any"

"Argaft negh taah nidaliskdhistinastinau hannq sintannath ugruargh" *say again*

"Hmm... thought so, you don't see any ice as well."

"Ap" *Would you please speak a language I can understand you moron*

[Scipio]

Its a hard question to answer but i must say there is a lot of greak people ffar away from greece (Etruscans anyone?) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[magnatz]

Greeks did have a number of colonies in southern Italy (and elsewhere in the Mediterranean), however Etruscans were definitely not Greek. Actually the Greeks themselves had different theories about the origin of the Etruscans (which they called Tyrrenians and often were at war with):

According to Herodotus, the Etruscan came from Eastern Mediterranean area, so they could have been Lydian or Hittites immigrants from Asia minor.

Dionysus of Halicarnassus instead believed that they were a indigenous population, such as the Ligurians or the Sannites.

Basically these theories are still being discussed, and each one has their supporters. The fact that the language is not yet well understood doesn't help either...

Some info here:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/5181/etrusk/ps/psE_21t_3.html