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Dhepee
09-24-2003, 17:24
I was fighting the last fight of a long war with the Turks. I corned the Sultan in Edessa. He had no heirs and I was feeling no mercy. His army was 3 units of Siphis of the Port, 1 Armenian Heavy cav, and one of Saracan Infantry.
I had 4 Pikes, 3 Longbows, 3 Chiv Knights still mounted, 4 CMAA with all Stat Improvements, and 2 of Late Royal knights.
I did not see the Saracan Inf at first, they were hidden in some trees at the bottom of a little gully. I beat the Siphis back with archers and pikes. I destroyed the Armenians with arrows. I was feeling pretty good. I had taken all of 5 casualties and the king was on the run.
My detached cavalry wing was off to the side, and that is when I spotted the Saracan inf. Since the battle was pretty well in hand I sent the cav down into the gully to take out this unit I had just noticed. They deployed nicely, surrounding the turks. At first the battle went my way. I was knocking them off in short order, and they were "losing badly", then it shifted to "losing" I was still unconcerned. Little did I realize that the Siphis had ridden around behind them, but were still at a distance.
I sent my infantry marching towards the Siphis, knowing that they would pass the cavalry action, still limited, to get back in contact with the siphis.
My archers were out front, in order to pin the siphis down. Then the unthinkable happened. The saracans killed my general. All hell broke loose. The cavalry routed and broke off contact. There was a very happy unit lying on my flank. I sent in two cmaa's and 1 pike. They were chewed up and spit out in short order, with virtually no lose to the saracan inf. At this point I realized that I had a problem, this little unit had just destroyed or routed the better part of my army. I turned the archers on them, and decided to make an all out attack. What I failed to realize was that no one was keeping the siphis busy. They began to attack my flanks with little skirmishes. Attack and withdraw, attack and withdraw.
All of a sudden there were white flags everywhere. I tried to pull of and reorganize but the siphis wouldn't let me. They kept harrassing my units, only making them waver more. I figured that the units were mauled and it would do me little good to pull them out so I used what I had left to wear out the enemy, while I assembled my reinforcements. It worked, if you can call it that. The siphis and saracans were so busy destroying what was left of my first army that they didn't notice the second army forming up. Slowly the Turks destroyed or drove off my units, but they were taking casualties too, until it looked as though they controlled the field. Then I rode my new army, almost all cavalry, into the fray, straight at the king, 12 units of cavalry, all in a wedge all converging on the 3 siphis of the port. I killed the king in moments, the rest of the army took flight in the face of my charge. I racked up 400 enemy dead to about 1400 dead of my own. Still I killed the king, he had no heirs, and England still reins supreme.

Sir Chauncy
09-24-2003, 18:42
*wipes away a tear*

And thus great stories grow. A ripping yarn young Bard. Had me all aquiver it did.

A.Saturnus
09-24-2003, 18:57
Yeah, sar inf are tough, you better keep your cav away from them.

Cebei
09-24-2003, 21:30
You mean Sipahis (instead of siphis) right? Which one sipahis of the porte or ordinary sipahis?

ANd Saracens are excellent rrank and file for a muslim army, I even think that they are elite deep inside ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif )

They are the best spearmen for Muslims. They are dangerous enough on head to head brawl and you let them attack you on the flank?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Dhepee
09-25-2003, 14:39
Yeah it was siphais of the porte, and yes I let the saracan infantry attack me on the flank, ughhh, I am still reeling from that battle. The only consolation is that despite my horrorific kill ratio I still carried the day and put that bastard sultan's head on a pike.
What no heirs, doesn't matter that you wiped out almost an entire stack Mr. Sultan Head on Stick. Your kingdom has ceased to exist and has broken down into minor factions that pose no real threat; like the unit of now rebel Naptha Throwers that were holding Constantinople (they didn't last long, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif ) Maybe you can gloat about all the commoners you sent to their final reward, but hey you're dead and I have your kingdom so eat my shorts. Did I mention that I killed the runty bastard. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Vanya
09-25-2003, 17:41
GAH

Proof positive that Vanya's mob tactic will often save the day Toss out the ways of encirclement and flanking. The modern rave is a full disorderly mob attack by selecting all units and double-clicking on the enemy general

GAH

Kongamato
09-26-2003, 03:03
Quote[/b] ]
GAH

Proof positive that Vanya's mob tactic will often save the day Toss out the ways of encirclement and flanking. The modern rave is a full disorderly mob attack by selecting all units and double-clicking on the enemy general

GAH

You forgot about the Wedge and the rain. You must attack in the rain and in Wedge

Vanya
09-26-2003, 18:01
Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Sep. 25 2003,21:03)]
Quote[/b] ]
GAH

Proof positive that Vanya's mob tactic will often save the day Toss out the ways of encirclement and flanking. The modern rave is a full disorderly mob attack by selecting all units and double-clicking on the enemy general

GAH

You forgot about the Wedge and the rain. You must attack in the rain and in Wedge
GAH

NATURALLY

Is there any other way to attack, asks Vanya?

But, thanks for pointing that out in case any noobs are here today getting indoctrinated.

Domo arigato,
mister Kongamato

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif Vanya could put than in the song and dance thread

GAH

bighairyman
09-27-2003, 05:41
YEAH, SARAcen infantry is tough. i usually have them as my main infantry in my egyptian army. it's weird though the saracens are medium spearmen, so i still can't beleive that are thta tough

Cebei
09-27-2003, 12:56
Aside from letting Saracens flank you, a battle won against Saracens and Sipahis of the Porte, is not a regrettable battle. They are the creme of the creme of the Turkish army (until Janissaries come). For increasing the challenge, try to be flanked (or preferably reared) by Janissary heavy infantry and Khwarazmian cavalry while being peppered by Sipahis, and try to win that battle LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Vanya
09-29-2003, 16:04
GAH

Vanya is not surprised about toughness of Saracen infantry. Vanya let you in on a leetol secret...

'cen' mean "hundred". 'Saracen' therefore means "a hundred Saras". Vanya sez... no mortal beats a band of 100 pissed-as-heck womenz.

Vanya sez... for youz at least, your only recourse is to fight Sara with Sara.

GAH

Oaty
09-30-2003, 04:08
Funny I find the Muwahids better spearmen then the Saracen and when I played the Egyptian campaign found them better than the Saracen since I had the option to train them both. Muwahids don't seem to be killing machines but rather they keep the enemy at a distance. I remeber having muwahids just standing there while reinforcements were pouring in and they took on 3 charges without a loss to either side, seems like they have a high discipline value and it is hard to get past there pointy sticks. Looked really funny when I had the A.I. attempt to charge them couldnt break the spears so they fell back and attempt again. But I was kind enough to end there relentless pursuit with som nice fresh Ghazis. Only time I had a problem with there wall of spears being broke is when some heavily armoured shock troop came in and could actually get past the wall of pointy sticks. I think there biggest enemy seems to be the varangian guard.

hoom
09-30-2003, 13:49
Varangians are the scourge of nearly all units in the game.

Saracens are plenty nasty.

I'm just getting into my first Turkish campaign http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I've not really played muslim factions much previously.

Vanya
09-30-2003, 15:31
GAH

Muwahids blow chunks. Vanya had several of these "elite" units get spanked by lousy urban militia after the enemy general was beheaded and the rest of his army was in full flight. Some plain militias came in as reinforcements and handed Vanya's Muwahids their arse on a plate, kabob style.

Sad. Truly sad.

Vanya was forced to bring up His veteran heavy infantry to deal with the pigs. They were quickly disposed of. But it would have been nice if those Muwahids, who were charging DOWNHILL onto the enemy militias, were NUMERICALLY superior to the enemy militias, and still have their leader alive, unlike the militias...

Next battle was kinda funny. Vanya went in with 10 Mubaritins and some Saracens and cav. Vanya figured... "Why not, eh?". Battle starts... HOLY COW The combined effect of all them javelins made it the easiest massacre of enemy men Vanya has ever seen in MTW so far (In SP, of course).

GAH

Cebei
09-30-2003, 16:26
Quote[/b] ]Vanya had several of these "elite" units get spanked by lousy urban militia after the enemy general was beheaded and the rest of his army was in full flight.

Muwahiddins are elite? Dont think so.. I guess the urban militas had more valor than the muwahids, thats why they beat muwas. Perhaps the urban militias werent much good before the battle, but perhaps they gained valor during the battle.


Quote[/b] ]Funny I find the Muwahids better spearmen then the Saracen and when I played the Egyptian campaign found them better than the Saracen since I had the option to train them both.

The game says so. Although muwahiddins are 60 unit #, they are only slightly cheaper than 100 men saracen formation. But in the battle saracens seem to be performing better. But again one has 60 men, one has 100 men and more or less similar prices.

Oaty
10-01-2003, 03:11
Well maybe the reason I do good with muwahids is that I always halt them and let them do a rearguard action on attack and let them just stand there on defense this way they keep a very good formation and I have used them on attack before but noticed they don't do to well. I do remeber very well that I had muwahids as the Almahods against the mongols and they survived 4 waves of heavy cavalry but I ran out of good units to flank down on the heavies so I finally had to withdraw my few remaining units to fight another day.

As far as urban militia going to town on them it was probably a desert battle where the muwahids base armor alone will tire them faster and any upgrades make this worse and the unarmoured urban militia were fresh. Am I right on this Vanya or was it in lush terrain.

I have found urban militia work great in the desert because they have no armour and take a lot to tire but anywhere els are almost worthless

Ironside
10-01-2003, 10:42
Stats on some units
Saracen Muwahidfoot Fedual sergs
Number 100 60 100
Charge 5 7 5
Attack -1 1 0
Defense 3 -1 -1
Armour 3 1 1
Morale 0 4 2

Saracen got exactly the same stats as chivic sergs. Considering the very high charge value and that Muwahid is fast makes them good flankers but I don't think that they are better than FS in a prolonged fight.

Edit: Stats are without shieldbonus that are the same for all above.

Cebei
10-01-2003, 14:49
Ahha.. that clarifies. Thanks

Actually look at the pics of the units: muwahids look like wannabe soldiers while saracens look like imperial guards.