Time commanders - 25th Sept

[econ21]

I'm surprised to login and find no one posting about the fourth Time Commanders battle yet. It was possibly less interesting than the earlier ones, but - perhaps because I was more familiar with the format - it "felt" more like a recognisable Total War battle.

The contestants - a Scottish family - did not seem too bad commanding an army of Caledonians (celts in Scotland) defending against a smaller Roman army under Agricola. They recognised the merit of staying on the high ground and planned a double envelopement - so I thought they had the basics of a good strategy. The problem was probably in the details - their pincers were too weak, consisting of only cavalry and chariots. The Roman cavalry was also on the flanks and outnumbered the Caledonians 2:1; the chariots were labelled as "bad against cavalry" and proved so. The Caledonian archers were mishandled - out of range and ultimately run off the battle by the Roman cavalry. The Caledonian infantry did not do well in a frontal attack - perhaps because it was deployed in too dispersed a fashion. A lot of these mistakes were due to a lack of basic information, a point Cheetah and others have stressed before.

As last week, whoever controlled the "enemy", whether an AI or human, did well. The Roman cavalry ultimately flanked and hit from the rear the Caledonian infantry. The Roman reserves, legionaires prevented the superior Caledonian numbers telling and then seemed to progressively chew through portions of the enemy line. They even got to throw their pila, although to little visible effect.

Biggest surprise to me was that the battle was carried - in history and on screen - by a front line of spear-armed German auxiliaries fighting for the Romans. I assumed these were low grade, but they trounced far superior numbers of Caledonians of all types, including berserkers. A historian likened them to being the Ghurkas of their day, and this seemed fitting.

An enjoyable episode, if lacking the tense and infuriating aspects of some of the earlier ones.

[katar]

Quote[/b] ](celts in Scotland)

or more likely Picts.

i forgot, was the battle in the Highlands?

a few are talking about it in the entrance hall. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

they had their force spread too thin and as you say their archers were stuck on the left flank doing squat.

all the teams so far are learner drivers, wonder how people who play MTW and STW will compare? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Nowake]

Oh, an important battle indeed. The entire empire would of fallen if not for that victory http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[ShadesWolf]

The battle was in the NE of Scotland. They said the closed large city was Aberdeen, and the Brits were refered to as Caledonians. No specific tribe was named, just the leader so in theory more info could be/have been colladed from his name......

[Shahed]

Question: Was there a city shown in this battle ?

[econ21]

No city was shown - it was a highland map, very like what you get in MTW if you fight in Scotland.

The historical location of the battle is apparently not known with certainty but the likely alternatives were in what I would call the eastern highlands. I confess I assumed the folks there should be called Picts rather than Celts, but the show did call them Celts I believe. The Caledonian units were almost identical to those used by the Britons in an earlier show.

I must say Time Commanders is getting me very keen on RTW. The gameplay in the tactical battles is very very similar to that in STW and MTW, just with much better graphics. This is a good thing, IMO. I just hope they don't mess up the strategic side by making too radical changes.

[Catiline]

I only saw the last 15 minutes or so of this, from a few minutes before the Romans commited ther legionary reserves. It did appear to be more like a normal totalwar battleW hen i first turned on it scanned about for 30 seconds or so with noone talking. It looked right, sufficiently that it was pretty obvious whoever was British (I didn't know at htis point) had lost. They'd not stopped the meat grinder in one place, or held their line. Barbarians have to beat one end of a Roman line and roll up the rest. In a straight rumpus the Romans are going to win everytime.

On thing htat did look hopeful once I realised the Romans were the AI was that that seemed much cleverer. i'm not convinced it's not under control, but if it is just the AI then it did a very good job at placing it's reserves (and keeping any in the first place) and at deciding hte right moment when they were needed.

Also was it just me, or did the whole thing look a bit less day glo?

[Fearless]

I watched the show and like all the others enjoyed it. However I don't know if it's me but I pay particular attention to the graphics and I swear they have improved. I shall check tonite but I believe the horses tails were not swinging in unison. The aftermath of the battle was great graphics. Shields, spears, bodies, everything you would expect to see. I'll take the pics over the weeekend and see what interesting images I can get for you all to scrutinise.

[frogbeastegg]

I liked the way they had tweaked the programmes format a little - two tiny changes made a huge difference.

Firstly they split the scouting phase into two halves, in the first half they scouted their own army and in the second they scouted the enemy. This let the contestants get a much better idea of what was where and the 3D map actually got some usage.

Secondly the defeat imminent warning was very quiet and it didn't annoy me nearly as much

Did anyone else notice the sneezing spearman? I loved that idle animation. Ditto the head scratching berserker

There is a new morale state - berserk. They looked at their units and reported that they were all listed as fresh and steady apart from the berserkers who were listed as fresh and berserk

Fearless - I also thought that the units seemed much less synchronised this week. Perhaps this programme was filmed with an engine with the beginnings of the anti sync code we have been hearing about.

Catiline - I also thought the AI did better this week. The part where they sent in the unit to deny their flank was excellent timing and positioning. The overall timing and cohesion of the attacks on various parts on the field was much better. But then the AI is limited by what happened in the real battle and this is the first time it has been given the 'intelligent' side to control.

The graphics overall seemed a tiny bit better. I like the look of the Celtic peasants and peasant spearmen - the ones with the long sleeved tunics and hide body armour.

This week I got to hear the music (which is extracted from RTW) much better and I have to say that it is fantastic The haunting bagpipes when the battle is announced to be lost, the quiet Celtic drums (you know the ones that look like tambourines) as they army started to move into position, and the amazing battle music as the Celts charged. None of it was as good as the Viking Win music but that is the epitome of catchy Total War music

[Shahed]

Thx for info everyone.

[Jochi Khan]

Yes....i also noticed the spearman sneeze. Just couldn't believe my eyes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
At least the contestants had a bit more idea at the start but then lost the plot.

.....Jochi

[Barkhorn1x]

Quote[/b] (Fearless @ Sep. 26 2003,05:20)]I watched the show and like all the others enjoyed it. However I don't know if it's me but I pay particular attention to the graphics and I swear they have improved. I shall check tonite but I believe the horses tails were not swinging in unison. The aftermath of the battle was great graphics. Shields, spears, bodies, everything you would expect to see. I'll take the pics over the weeekend and see what interesting images I can get for you all to scrutinise.
Fearless;

Can we please see;

- Battlefield debris
- Pilums being launched

Thanks,
Scott.

[Mak]

Well i have watched each time commanders episode and this weeks was the best so far. Not the best battle but in terms of a slick looking TV programme. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Well done at last.

The battle was in my view a little one sided and they contestants were in charge an inferior army in my view. The roman army won without really committing its best troops. Now okay they celt flank was ripped apart and the archers run down, but the romans light infantry, the germans, were said to be specialists in close combat. the celts could have attacked around the flanks but then would have been engaging the roman reserve.

I really do think the celts were going to lose whatever they did. Their only chance i think would have been to distract the roman cohorts at the rear with their cav and chariots drag them away from the main battle. Then engage the roman (german) infantry with all their celt infantry. this would have been by a massive initial charge downhill using the slope and outflanking enveloping the romans. The cohorts would be elsewhere distracted.

Any opinions on this? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Cheetah]

I have not seen the programme, so cannot tell whether it was feasible under the cicumstances, but splitting up the enemy army and engaging one part with all (or with the best) of your forces is always a good idea http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Quote[/b] (Barkhorn1x @ Sep. 26 2003,11:20)]
Quote[/b] (Fearless @ Sep. 26 2003,05:20)]I watched the show and like all the others enjoyed it. However I don't know if it's me but I pay particular attention to the graphics and I swear they have improved. I shall check tonite but I believe the horses tails were not swinging in unison. The aftermath of the battle was great graphics. Shields, spears, bodies, everything you would expect to see. I'll take the pics over the weeekend and see what interesting images I can get for you all to scrutinise.
Fearless;

Can we please see;

- Battlefield debris
- Pilums being launched

Thanks,
Scott.
The tails still wag in synch, there is battle field debris - a lot of dead bodies and some broken chariots I think.
You do see the pilums being launched but I dont think you see them hit the scots, so I dont know how effective they were.

I thought the strategy they used wasnt bad, but the pictish troops seemed to be rather weak. The biggest mistake IMHO they made was they left no units back so once their cav had been routed they had nothing to cover against the Roman cav. But the chariots and archers were poorly handled.

The other thing they went on about was that teh Romans were scared of teh physically larger Scots. Surely this diddnt apply to their Batavian/ German auxilliaries, they were pretty large themselves?

[Mount Suribachi]

Agreed that the team this week weren't too bad - not the blithering idiots of the first 2 weeks.

Regarding their inability to flank, it appeared to me that once they had the entire Roman front line engaged, they still had Celtic warriors/beserkers to spare, but rather than sending them on an end around, they just charged them down into the scrum, thus negating their strong charge and playing into the Roman strength - close combat.

Also, I though the Roman AI did an excellent job first protecting its flanks with cavalry, then using that cavalry to roll up rear of the celtic line unit by unit.

And I saw that bloke sneeze too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Barkhorn1x]

Quote[/b] (o_loompah @ Sep. 26 2003,12:26)]The other thing they went on about was that teh Romans were scared of teh physically larger Scots.
Now that's just dumb as these units were - Oh I don't know - STATIONED in Britain http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

It wouldn't be the first time that the Romans saw these guys - and you know what familiarity breeds.

Anyway - thanks for the info. on the graphics.

[Michiel de Ruyter]

Just for info:

The romans recognized the skills of the Batav (and similar) tribes.

They were enlisted from around the expeditions of Drusus, in the first two decades of the 1st century AD. The Romas established a legionary base for IIRC the tenth legion next to the Batavian capital, at what is now Nijmegen, in Holland.
This tribe rose, with some allies, under the command of Julius Civilus, a Batavian who had served in the Roman army) in revolt in 64 AD. Basically all Roman between the mouth of the Rhine and Xanten (maybe even Cologne) was ravaged. they beat all troops in the area, and it took IIRC Vespasian himself to put the revolt down. he could not destroy them though, and after some talks a peace was agreed upon. Basically the Roman laws form before the urising were upheld. And it was decided that Batavian troops would not be stationed in Batavian area from then onwards. It says enough about how the Romans valued Batavian military prowess (plus about other problems they had) that they did not punish the tribe, quite contrary to what was Roman custom.