New Unit - Chosen Axemen

[Monk]

Chosen Axemen
http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/daxe.jpg

Double-handed axes are intimidating weapons, and they should be used to hack a hole in an enemy line. These axes are heavy, superbly made, razor sharp and easily capable of cleaving a man down to his breastbone even through armour. Chosen Axemen are an elite among tribal warriors, selected for their physical size, strength, bravery and - some would say - pig-headedness. They are the assault troops of any barbarian army, the men whose only job is to smash any organised resistance and keep on killing unto no foes remain.

Fear is completely alien to them, as is any concept of mercy to a foe or a weakling among their own kind. They are fantastically strong men - and need to be to wield their enormous double-headed axes with any degree of skill and control. Some Chosen Axemen are wealthy enough to have mail coats, but most disdain armour as a sign of cowardice. They may also carry swords as reserve weapons.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Oooooh...looks dangerous. I like the HEEEEEUGE blade.

[Basileus]

hehe that axe will do some real damage http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The_Emperor]

Look at the size of that thing

[shingenmitch2]

C.A. SUX. What the hell kind of crap is this?

Let's just make crap up as we go along... Why do they even bother making this a historic game if they are going to invent units like this? They spend countless hours tweaking a game engine to create as accurate an ancient battle simulator as possible... and then they go and populate their game with fictional units. Nice... and it's not like there isn't enough extremely interesting and truly historic warrior types to choose from. There's simply no need to invent this. CA's designers need to spend 1/100 of the time they spend on inventing units from Conan comics and simply open a friggin Osprey Ancients book (at the cost of $14 freakin dollars) take the first picture they come across and use it as is...

Isn't it enough to have the Huscarls and House Carls in Medieval? There they are fine. Here they are not. I could somewhat understand having FRANKS, who would be out of the time period for TWRome, and their fransica -- 1-handed throwing axe, but why they just make crap up is beyond me. The Celts and Germans did not use a 2-handed battle axe in any appreciable numbers (I don't think it even existed). But sure, combine this with 'War Puppies' and the barbarians become an increasingly pure fantasy faction... maybe they should have the barbarians be able to "morph" into wolves too like in Werewolf. That's cool too, yes? It would be as accurate.

If they want to make ConanTW, then make ConanTW and have it all fantasy and do whatever you want. If you're gonna make RomeTW, then do it right.

This just smacks of some idiot sitting there in the design room going "wouldn't it be really awesome if..."
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif


lol, but yeah... LOOK AT THAT COOL BLADE.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Barkhorn1x]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ Sep. 26 2003,12:16)]C.A. SUX. What the hell kind of crap is this?

Let's just make crap up as we go along... Why do they even bother making this a historic game if they are going to invent units like this?
Yea, this unit is is pretty weak (not as bad as the doggies though).

Well, we should be able to mod., right?

Barkhorn.

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (Barkhorn1x @ Sep. 26 2003,14:33)]
Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ Sep. 26 2003,12:16)]C.A. SUX. What the hell kind of crap is this?

Let's just make crap up as we go along... Why do they even bother making this a historic game if they are going to invent units like this?
Yea, this unit is is pretty weak (not as bad as the doggies though).

Well, we should be able to mod., right?

Barkhorn.
According to CA we can mod everything down to the last detail in the unit Skins...so there's hope http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Nelson]

I wish we could get away from homogeneous weapon types for every last unit. Why can't the barbarians have a unit with swords, clubs, axes and spears? Warriors used whatever they wanted.

[DemonArchangel]

Still, you have to admit, that is one HUGE axe

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (DemonArchangel @ Sep. 26 2003,15:27)]Still, you have to admit, that is one HUGE axe
You think maybe he's compensating for something? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Mega Dux Bob]

It seems CA forgot the horns on the helmet and the bunny fur speedos.

[Kraxis]

Shingen I would like to know what other interesting tribal warriors there were. I mean besides Armoured Swordsmen, Unarmoured Swordsmen and Spearmen. Because that is basically all I have ever stumbled over. Clubmen could be a possibility, but I have only read about them very scarcely. Personally I would prefer if the Chosen had been armed with big clubs instead.

I do agree that this unit seems a little redundant since there is the Barbarian Axemen. But perhaps the Chosen are British and the Barbarian are Gaellic/Germanic? And the axe it perhaps a good bit too big, but I feel that people will know such a weapon is impossible to use.

[PSYCHO]

Quote[/b] (Mega Dux Bob @ Sep. 26 2003,14:43)]It seems CA forgot the horns on the helmet and the bunny fur speedos.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ...shhh... don't go giving them ideas

Also have to agree with shingenmitch2. With all the colourful Britainic, Gallic and Germanic units available, why invent this tripe. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif These guys are more comfortable in MTW than in antiquity, what with the medieval Erol Flynn outfits and renaissance knee high boots etc etc Maybe their using the same "history" consultants as they did for MTW? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

my2bob

[longjohn2]

Don't worry guys, the vast majority of the units in RYW will be straight out of history books. It's true that there are a few units that are slightly fanciful, but if you don't like them, you don't have to build them. However, while double headed axemen may not correspond exactly with the archealogical record, they do enhance the impression that barbarians are big and scary. In many ways it's much more important that the game conveys this feeling, rather than getting hung up on exact weapon types. That said, there'll still be plenty of barbarian warriors with swords and spears.

[Catiline]

The only issue with that though LongJohn is that if we don't build them the AI still will, and that will still effect the atmosphere. Ideally htere'd a history check box implemented in hte options that turns off the fanciful units full stop.

[Sir Chauncy]

This could be just me but I could have sworn that when I read the interview with Ian Roxborough, he said that whenever history and Gamplay came head to head, gameplay would win every time, now what part of that weas so hard to understand? People seem to get really caught up in realism and it is just plain stupid. This is a game Based on reality, if it was only reality you wouldn't be able to do anything other than what happened in the past.
Wehey What fun.
Just calm down and wait for it to finish, then mod and moan all you like.

[spmetla]

Guys come on, if you don't like the units just mod the game, it's that simple.
Don't know how to mod, go to the dungeon and learn how or download someone's accuracy mod which I can garuntee will be made.
Since Shogun people have modded the game to what they feel it should be like. And now with the ability to have different building and units documents you can have all your units like you want them for single player and the standard ones for online play.

For example I have no doubt in my mind that the first unit I'll get rid of will be the "dogs of war".

[Galestrum]

OR how about the make the game correctly the first time and if i want to add M16 wielding celtic-persian goth warriors with riot shields and CS gas i can http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Having units that arent historical does not add anything to gameplay nor does not having this unit hurt gameplay. Bad gameplay comes from things like, erm um 56 year bugs, poor AI, standing armies at bottoms of hills for them to be arrow pincushions and the like http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Kraxis]

What are those ohh so fancy units the Brits are suposed to have, I would seriously like to know.
I have already mentioned the units I could imagine from what I have read. Now if those were to be the only warriors we could get RTW would sell about as many copies as we are here.

[hrvojej]

BTW, where is the other head of that axe? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[econ21]

Longjohn, thanks for the reassurance - but how about Catiline's idea of a "historical units" check box? I remember that in Jagged Alliance 2, there was a similar option (a sci-fi check box) and that was in a game that was not premised on history. It had only a minor effect on gameplay (removed one fun quest - a bug hunt), but was included because the concept of fictious monsters in a contemporary setting really annoyed some people.

[hoom]

Quote[/b] ]BTW, where is the other head of that axe?You beat me to it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

I'm not too worried by the 'fiction to help gameplay' bit.
Especially since theres gonna be a 'reality' mod soon after launch

[Cebei]

I also want a Russel Crowe in RTW. One that can kill 7 praetorians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[hoom]

I want a tough little Gaulish village with a fat guy & a halfling with wings on his helmet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Dwimmerlaik]

And of course the option to build a bard unit with fearsome vocal attack and no morale to speak of http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Lazul]

ok this is bugging me much more than the "historical" bla bla etc issue.

Why in "gods" (if he now exists) name are the untis called "barbarian" and so on.

I really dont think that the Germanians called themselfs barbarians, so if i play as germanian, i want my units to be called germanian axemen ano not barbarian axemen. understand...
never in history i think 2 ppl met and i twent like this.

person 1: Greetings, im an roman soldier... wazap?
person 2: Yho, im an barbarian dude with huge axe, me kill lots of times, hrr hrr

germanians didnt see themselfs as barbarians. its the same as calling all the christians in the MTW Infidels.

hope you understand
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[hoom]

Good point

[Cheetah]

After a long and tedious search in the library I have found this authentic barbarian song. I seriously hope it can be incorporated into the appropriate RTW soundtrac.

„I am a barbaric warrior
Yippieee-o
I am a barbaric warrior
Yippieee-o
I am a noughty barbaric warrior
Yippieee-aiiiiooooo

I kill roman soldiers
Yippieee-o
I kill roman soldiers
Yippieee-o
I kill nasty roman soldiers
Yippieee-aiiiiooooo

I chop their heads off
Yippieee-o
I chop their heads off
Yippieee-o
I chop their ugly heads off
Yippieee-aiiiiooooo

I drink their blood
Yippieee-o
I drink their blood
Yippieee-o
I drink all their blood
Yippieee-aiiiiooooo

If you dont like my big axe
Yippieee-o
If you dont like my big axe
Yippieee-o
You can kiss my big a**
Yippieee-aaAAAAaaaiiiIIIIiiiooOOOOOooo”

[Hakonarson]

That's not authentic - I know it isn't 'cos it's not typed in ROMAN font http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Hurin_Rules]

I hear the next building is a Master Alchemist, who only works for the Gauls but creates these magic strength potions that allow them to fend of the Romans.

[clink]

I think the idea of making individual type weapon units for more primative barbarian armies is far fetched.

I would like CA try and implament an assortment of weapon bearing troops in one barbarian type unit and call it simply barbarian infantry or something like.

When the Romans first ventured out into northern Europe,they usually encountered hordes of hairy,hide wearing uncivilized screaming banshees wielding all sorts of weapons from hammers axes and swords,massed together in basically un orginized formations.

In the "Barbarian" video,I thought it looked stupid with a unit of axe wielding blue painted celts.

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya is here to save the day

First, let Vanya recommend adding that melodic masterpiece to the Song and Dance thread.

Now, on to business.

Vanya sez... The term "barbarian" is merely used to identify any peoples that are not Roman. Egyptians? Barbarians of the sands. Scythians? Barbarians of the steppes. Greeks? Barbarians of the a-hole. The list goes on and on. Naturally, Rome incorporated the various barbarian influences of the centuries. Before youz know it, youz had arse-chasing Roman cavalry units wielding germanic axes in pursuit of Eastern boys and a flaire of interior palacial decorating promoting a blend between steppe rustic style and the avant garde gladiatorial fallic imagery of the times.

Lastly... Vanya carries big axe. Clearly this unit is a testament to the axe. Vanya sometimes thinks the "chosen axemen" are Vanya's pick of the litter from among the peasantry to lead the central charge in battle. Vanya sez... the homage to the Horseman's axe tickles Vanya.

Soon, Vanya sez... youz see new uber-axe unit. Unit wields a long pole with FOUR axe heads, two on each end of the shaft. Imaging Darth Maul's double saber... only with a pair of axe heads on each end. Vanya sez... unit will be DEVASTATING Vanya calls them the Barbarian Maulers. Vanya not know what CA will call them yet...

GAH

[shingenmitch2]

Okee, I've calmed down.... my appologies to LongJohn for my tantrum.

I get frustrated because I know that this game has THE BEST game-engine to date for ancient battles and I see the potential of this game to be simply the best, most accurate ancient warfare sim/game ever. Thus, when I keep seeing fictional units I get more and more concerned that the game will turn into a bad joke or pre-teen arcade game.

Fiction doesn't need to be added for good game play... period. Good unit balance and demanding strategy is what is needed. What I always took as game-play winning over accuracy is when they "tweek" a particular unit's abilities so that it may not be perfectly accurate, but overall, the factions have better balance.


-----------
I might be wrong, but it feels that ever since STW, there has been an increasing push for "more" units. That by being able to say we have x-hundered different units, that somehow the game is better.

Instead of having a thousand units that are all half-baked and not thoroughly tested, the game would be better served to have less units, but ones that were very deliberately considered. These units would be the ones that not only best represent each faction but also are then tested and re-tested for their game-balance. The time spent building "new" units could be better spent refining those that are truly worthwhile.

It seems that for all of the extra units of M:TW, in multi-player, we've actually wound up with less viable units than we had with MI/WE.


----

hehe barbarian maulers.... don't even think it...

[PSYCHO]

Your not alone shingenmitch2

Cheers

[Mithrandir]

SM, it's true however that a game looks 'better' if it says, 200 different units then when a game says 25 units

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya forgot to add... the inspiration for the axemen unit clearly is the germanic leader in Gladiator.

Too bad these units are not wearing a bear skin and sporting long, mangy hair...

GAH

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]1 -> They are the assault troops of any barbarian army

2 -> Fear is completely alien to them, as is any concept of mercy to a foe or a weakling among their own kind.

3 -> most disdain armour as a sign of cowardice.

???

1. Wrong.

2. Their Religions moralised them, which differed from the romans very much. The romans believed the Soul would just be banned to the Hades or Pandemonium after death, which is a dark and unhappy place. Celts believed in the Otherworlds and germanics in Valhalla, so it is quite understandable whoose Morale was better (Morale, not discipiline). Killing an unarmed was seen as the worst dishonor, whatever the Barbarians liked to take prisoners as Slaves or claim Money from their Families to set them free (Unlike Romans).

3. I actually wonder why there are so many Armor Pieces found in Celtic Graves if this was that way. In Case of the Gauls the high-society of Warriors wore Medieterranian influenced Armor, the gaulish Helmet-Style was was even adopted by the Romans (Late Legion's ones).

Must I post realistic Units? Oh man, even Caesar mentions Barbarian Organisations/Trooptypes in his "bello Gallico", same about Tacitus' "Germania" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[shingenmitch2]

Mith ---


exactly the problem, and i think the marketers force the designers to succumb to that kind of thinking...

Well the solution :
cut 200 in half, and have 101 units and say on the box "Hunderds of units" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[hellenes]

The main point that annoyes me most isnt the chosen axemen or the pigs or the dogs (and all the farm) but the reason behind of the loss of time money and all the resources trying o make the game Hollywood circus ...I mean why the devs are spending their creative time on things that at least insult the intellectual level of many of the consumers and the most important create a totally diverse image of the period in not familiar with the history peoples eyes...the "history geeks" will recognise the hollywood aspect and avoid/mod it but the rest of the people will take it at its word and believe that the barbarians used dogs in masses and that the gladiators were vital part of the army and members of the legion (ok i know that ca couldnt resist of taking advantage of whole hollywood gladiator legend spartacus,gladiator etc,etc)are the ca devs take the responsibility of misinformation of the uninformed on history consumers by joinin the hollywood circus?
The time will show... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[PSYCHO]

Quote[/b] (Stefan the Berserker @ Sep. 30 2003,09:38)]Oh man, even Caesar mentions Barbarian Organisations/Trooptypes in his "bello Gallico", same about Tacitus' "Germania" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Yup, he comments that the Helvetii use a phalanx, with interlocked shields and spears.

Wonder if CA will create that feature?

Cheers

[Nowake]

you know, you really don't have to take the "helvetic phanlax" literaly. They just fought in tight formation, by locking their shields in something that seemed with a wall. this is a logic tactic when having a shield at your disposal.