Sun Tzu Strategies

[Shimazu2]

While i was reading The Art Of War by SunTzu i have recovered these few "hints" that i have found useful... (feel free to show your favorite strategies)

Therefore,
there are five factors of knowing who will win:
One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious;
one who knows how to use both large and small forces will be victorious;
one who knows how to unite upper and lower ranks in purpose will be victorious;
one who is prepared and waits for the unprepared will be victorious;
one whose general is able and is not interfered by the ruler will be victorious.

Therefore I say:
One who knows the enemy and knows himself
will not be in danger in a hundred battles.
One who does not know the enemy but knows himself
will sometimes win, sometimes lose.
One who does not know the enemy and does not know himself
will be in danger in every battle.
Their force is like a drawn crossbow
and their timing is like the release of the trigger.

Even in the midst of the turbulence of battle,
the fighting seemingly chaotic,
they are not confused.
Disorder came from order,
fear came from courage,
weakness came from strength.

One who exploits force commands men into battle like rolling logs and boulders.
Those who are able to adapt and change in accord with the enemy and achieve victory are called divine.

Standing your ground to wait for enemies who are far away, waiting for the weary in comfort, waiting for the hungry with full stomachs, is mastering strength.

So is the way of the warrior (i added this http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)



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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...

-Shimazu2

[Shimazu2]

comeon guys.. atleast say something... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...

-Shimazu2

[Gothmog]

Well, sometimes you just have to tell myself: oh, they must be in so impressed that they are virtually speechless.

I do that all the time.

Have a good time.

[Krasturak]

Gah! Shim! Gah!

You have read the Secret Book!

Now you are a power to be feared on the battlefield!

Gah! Shim! Gah!

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Shimazu2:

there are five factors of knowing who will win:
One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious;
[/QUOTE]

..so never fight the top 20 players http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

Quote
one who knows how to use both large and small forces will be victorious;
[/QUOTE]
..an army of hobbits, or an army of orcs?


Quote
one who is prepared and waits for the unprepared will be victorious;
[/QUOTE]
..i.e. is to camp (on a hill maybe)?! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif


Muahahaha



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tootee the goldfish
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[Kalt]

I have to admit when people talk about Sun Tzu one thought pops into my head: n00bz

Now I am not saying that you are a Newb, far from it, but Tzu's book today would be "War for dummies". It is a great introductory piece for people who are new to thinking strategically, but frequently their puffed-up egos after reading the book is a greater disadvantage than not having read it at all.

I read the book myself in 1 sitting, which is easy because it is short. I was thoroughly unimpressed with most of it (except the espionage section), and found a sizable portion to be outdated: he says enveloping your opponent is a BAD thing in one part. This might have been effective when your goal was to break Chinese peasant armies with less casualties (his point was that without escape trapped soldiers will fight harder) but as you can see it takes a critical reader to seperate the wheat from the chaff, and the book is definately NOT one to 'live by' as many people I have encountered believe.

Despite this, the book does offer some insights and is worth reading, but if you have never seen the book you could easily be the best strategist ever: in fact, the better you are naturally, the less sun tzu can do for you.


"One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious;
one who knows how to use both large and small forces will be victorious;
one who knows how to unite upper and lower ranks in purpose will be victorious;
one who is prepared and waits for the unprepared will be victorious;
one whose general is able and is not interfered by the ruler will be victorious."

The above reflects typical Confucian ideals: superior knowledge and superior harmony leads to victory. Duh! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif


"Therefore I say:
One who knows the enemy and knows himself
will not be in danger in a hundred battles.
One who does not know the enemy but knows himself
will sometimes win, sometimes lose.
One who does not know the enemy and does not know himself
will be in danger in every battle.
Their force is like a drawn crossbow
and their timing is like the release of the trigger."

Now I have a problem with this, because while knowledge is important, a remarkably effective strategy in life and in games is to find a path to victory, and to master it utterly. The Mongols, for example, perfected a method of warfare then attacked. They did not need to know their opponents, but instead knew only knew themselves, and they were utterly successful. An irresistible offense is the surest way to victory, and it relies on uniform tactics rehearsed to perfection, instead of mindgame move and countermove strategies like chess.

"Even in the midst of the turbulence of battle,
the fighting seemingly chaotic,
they are not confused.
Disorder came from order,
fear came from courage,
weakness came from strength."

Disipline=good...... wow what an insight, and here I thought you only disiplined troops for marching in parades......


"One who exploits force commands men into battle like rolling logs and boulders.
Those who are able to adapt and change in accord with the enemy and achieve victory are called divine.

Standing your ground to wait for enemies who are far away, waiting for the weary in comfort, waiting for the hungry with full stomachs, is mastering strength."

#1 logs and boulders are still a force not to be trifled with, especially when aimed properly.
#2 Defense=good?? when did this happen! Besides waiting around is a good way to get outmaneuvered, especially when you can't camp the corner of a small map.


Sun Tzu might have been good back in the old days, but there have been many many great strategists since then, and he steals far too much of their well-earned thunder.

Verdict: Sun Tzu = Overrated!

(p.s. I know the flames will come, so be put on notice: I know you well O flamers, and I know myself, so I shall not be in danger after even 100 flames! So is the way of the poster)

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[MagyarKhans Cham]

http://home-4.worldonline.nl/~t543201/web-mongol/mongol-100strategy.htm

suntzu's advice translated into 100 rules

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Quote I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well[/QUOTE]

[Kraellin]

..."An irresistible offense is the surest way to victory, and it relies on uniform tactics rehearsed to perfection, instead of mindgame move and countermove strategies like chess."...

this works until one runs into the irresistable defense, or superior forces, or superior technology, and here again, one needs to 'know his enemy' and this extends to knowing who your enemy is. just ask saddam hussein about that one. he figured he had the 'irresistable offense'. ;)

K.


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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

[Yagyu Jubei]

It is imperative to examine the enemy's emptiness and fullness and aim for their vulnerabilities.
When enemies have newly arrived from afar, while their columns are still unsettled, they can be attacked.
When they have just eaten and have not yet made preparations, they can be attacked.
When they are running, they can be attacked.
When they are tired out, they can be attacked.
When they have not yet gotten an advantageous location, they can be attacked.
When they have missed opportunities and things are not going smoothly for them, they can be attacked.
When they are stretched out endlessly on a long journey, they can be attacked.
When they are crossing water and have reached halfway, they can be attacked.
When they are in defiles or narrow roads, they can be attacked.
When their signals are confused, they can be attacked.
When their battle lines keep shifting, they can be attacked.
When their commanders alienate the officers and soldiers, they can be attacked.
When their hearts are afraid, they can be attacked.
Wu Qi's Art of War
This of course is also true of us as defenders. We can be attacked in any of these places! Be wary so that we don't find ourselves in these positions, as well as seeing when our opponents are in these positions!

visit our clansite at http://clanyagyu.tripod.com
then go to the art of war page for tons of good stuff

[Zone]

I'm sure that somewhere (I can't be bothered to look it up) it states that fighting and winning 100 wars isn't the greatest good, the greatest good is to win without fighting (someting like that).

and sorry to spoil you fun tootee:

GEISHAS http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]

[This message has been edited by Zone (edited 01-04-2002).]

[Shimazu2]

bahahahaha thx guys... never thought i would find so many opinions on this topic http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif anyhow thx again http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...

-Shimazu2

[TakeshidaSo]

Grab your enemy by the nose, and kick him in the ass.

[Katasaki Hirojima]

*dosen't want Kalt as the leader of our armys* Your interpretation is way to narrow Kalt. When he says "Wait for the enemy" it dosen't mean sit on your borders and turtle.

THis is a Axiom of warfare, What this means is to arrive at a strategic location BEFORE the enemy does and WAIT for him.

If you arrive at a location before your enemy does, you can settle in and establish supply lines and establish perimeter control areas.

Now, the enemy, not haveing that strategic point must either rush in and fight for it or be deflected.

As for being out manuevered..This is possible, but it is a basis of prioritys. When your attacked, you have to gaurd your vital areas, but at the same time try and destroy the attacking force.

War is not a set of individual components working independantly. Spies, scouts and mauevering go hand in hand. YOu don't set up to defend until you know where to defend, and you don't attack until you know where to attack. War is extremely complicated, to just dismiss what he said as a easy way to be out manuvered is pretty narrow minded.

and to counter your other argument:

The mongols were succesfull as they were because they were lucky and at the top of there game when everyone eles was slacking off.

They attacked a bunch of nations that were in no posistion to defend themselfs. These nations were being led by idiot rulers and generals (Russians, Chinese, Eastern european provinces, Mesopotamia)

Not to mention They baisicly conquered alot of nothing..Have you ever looked at what a majority of asia is? TUndra and desert. THe rich areas like India, Western Europe, SOutheast Asia, Japan and egypt were never conquered.

THey were beaten by the egyptians, or saracens at the time. THey were beaten once they reached central europe by a few small european armies. The fact of the matter is that the mongol army is the only thing here that was overrated. The mongols just came out of nowhere when the rest of the world was at its most vulnerable point.

Not to take credit away from them of course. Its just that they weren't some ungodly army that chould defeat anything that stood in there way. Thats all. They were good, though, just not the best.

I'll digress however, alot of what Sun Tzu says is common sense. But you'd be suprised how often our military leaders today lack this 'common sense'.

Sorry for this huge rant, I just felt this needed to be said.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Zone]

Quote Originally posted by Katasaki Hirojima:
[/QUOTE]
Yea, you'd think Bin-Laden (however it's spelt) would go for the Pentagon [B] first http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]

I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)

[Zone]

P.s. I think smilies should work in the signature!

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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]

I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)

[Sjakihata]

The wise words of Sun Tzu

“Know the enemy and know yourself, your victory will be painless. Know the weather and the field, your victory will be complete.”

“Attack only where there is no defense, and your attack will succeed. Defend only where there is no enemy, and your defense will sustain.”

“Warfare is one thing. It is a philosophy of deception.”

“Before you can go to war, you must believe that you can count on victory.”

“Everyone relies on the arts of war.
- A united nation is strong. A divided nation is weak.
- A united army is strong. A divided army is weak.
- A united force is strong. A divided force is weak.
- United men are strong. Divided men are weak.
- A united unit is strong. A divided unit is weak.”

“You see the opportunity for victory; you do not create it”

“This is the art of war.
1. Discuss the distances.
2. Discuss your numbers.
3. Discuss your calculations.
4. Discuss your decisions.
5. Discuss victory.

“Everyone moving their army must adjust to the enemy.”

“You must control your field position. It always strengthen your army.”

“A wise leader plans success. A good general studies it.
If there is little to be gained, do not act.
If there is little to win, do not use your men.
If there is no danger, do not fight.

“You must use five types of spies.
- you need local spies.
- you need inside spies.
- you need double spies.
- you need doomed spies.
- You need surviving spies.

Follow these and you will not fail.
Source: Sun Tzu: The Art of War.


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"-Know your self, know your enemy and your victory will be painless.
-Know the weather, know the terrain and your victory will be complete."
-Sun Tzu(Wu), The Art of War.

[Brown Wolf]

well an old russion tactic always works, just use huge numbers

lol

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"I, as well as several others, have sword to never purchase another EA game again." -soly

[Shimazu2]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...

-Shimazu2

[Zone]

Quote Originally posted by Brown Wolf:
I, as well as several others, have sword never to buy another EA game again - soly[/QUOTE]

Why's that soly? I don't imagine there are many swords that do buy EA games anyway http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif



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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]

I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)

[Brown Wolf]

Quote Originally posted by Zone:
Why's that soly? I don't imagine there are many swords that do buy EA games anyway http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[/QUOTE]

becareful you don't want to be on soly's list like I am

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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"always be thinking"

[Katasaki Hirojima]

Haven't you ever heard of Bob Swords? Hes a very influential man in bathroom retileing. If he says "green" everyone at home depot will say "green".

Imagine if Swords didn't buy EA games? No one at Home Depot whould buy EA games. That'd crush there evil empire for sure..

^_^

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[Shimazu2]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...

-Shimazu2

[Brown Wolf]

you know the quote was that he "sword not to buy" not that he would sword something!



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"always be thinking"

[BSM_Skkzarg]

OK... i waited on this thread to get decent before I posted. So here we go.

Kalt - sorry mate but Sun-Tzu if no "War for Beginners", cuz if it was it would not be one of the main points of focus at he US Army War College. Nor would it be required study at Annapolis or West Point, but it is, so draw your own conclusion.

Second, if you have read Sun-Tzu, then you should also try and get your hands on Sun-Pin. Written a few hundred years after Sun-Tzu, it shows how warfare had changed, and how it had not.

Also - for those who care - you are all aware that Sun-Tzu did not actually WRITE "The Art of War", aren't you? Those in the know will attest that historically speaking - it looks like the book was written by numerous "generals" and then compiled into a "complete" work. Unfortunately, we don't have the entire thing - yet. These "generals" appear to all have been trained by Sun-Tzu, or learned his lessons in some very direct (perhaps the hard - losing) way.

Also - this fallacy must be addressed!
..."An irresistible offense is the surest way to victory, and it relies on uniform tactics rehearsed to perfection, instead of mindgame move and countermove strategies like chess."...

An irresistible offense is to not shower or bathe for a year and enter battle with no shirt - then charge the enemy flapping your arms like a large chicken. This will cause you to be offensive to anyone you come near.

Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[This message has been edited by BSM_Skkzarg (edited 01-06-2002).]

[Kraellin]

"An irresistible offense is to not shower or bathe for a year and enter battle with no shirt - then charge the enemy flapping your arms like a large chicken. This will cause you to be offensive to anyone you come near."

ok, bsm, now yer just shamelessly copying elmo's tactics. ;)

K.


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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

[Kalt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Katasaki *dosen't want Kalt as the leader of our armys*

Talk about narrow minded. Since you dont know Sun Tzu personally you don't really have the authority to tell me what he 'really' means, you are merely interpreting it in an extremely broad way, so broad in fact that his statement boils down to nothing more than 'get there first.' At this point, Sun Tzu is not being brilliant but merely stating the obvious, by your interpretation.

Of course getting in place first is better, its called initiative, but I highly doubt the AoW inferred an active, engaging defense, read literally it looks more like "lets sit around." Besides, if you interpret AoW using modern concepts like 'perimeter control areas' you are surely misapplying the AoW. Yes I know recon existed back then but it was primitive and didnt need to be precise: enemy armies could be detected far away with even the most basic sloppy recon.

Also the mongols were not simply lucky, they refined very effective tactics and perfected large-scale mounted warfare in their time. Were they unstopabble? no, but if they are invading across the world, communication and supply delays hand tremendous advantages to the defenders, so it is a wonder that the Mongols got as far as they did. China was a large and sophisticated nation during the invasions, and south China even held out against the first period of mongol attacks. They illustrate my point well: if you do YOUR job very well, thats all you need. I am not saying that it is wise to ignore "anti" tactics (specific counters to enemy techniques) but you CAN win and stand a good chance without it, Contrary to Sun Tzu's almighty instruction.

Experience is a better tool than Sun Tzu will ever be, and only persons who find strategy an alien concept, or who cannot learn from experience effectively, need bother with reading a book that was meant to educate the tactically inept.


Once again: Sun Tzu = Over-rated

not worthless ------> overrated

[Kalt]

bahaha, ok Skarg, the students that attend the military colleges of the USA are not born strategists, that is why they read the AoW there, and not after being made colonels. AoW is good at putting emphasis on the fundamentals, but it remains outdated and should NEVER be used like the BIBLE-of-all-conflict that many people feel it is.

Besides does the Art of war tell you how to cope with the wider bridges in MI????

Also Sun Tzu just means 'old master' or something roughly along those lines. Real people are not named that, and the name is just used to refer to the authors of the AoW collectively, besides many editors have had a go at the book and revised/updated/commented on it. The book is worth a read but it will not make you smarter, a better leader, or improve your ability to defeat persons strategically.

#1 learn/study all statistics and abilities of the possible troops/actors involved.

#2 pick a overall strategy/goal focusing on a handful of troops/actors you feel make the best teams for facing any given challenges.

#3 rehearse/refine your strategy over and over until you have brought it to near perfection.

#4 adapt on the basis of experience in games to best counter your opponents.


The four steps above will, if followed, lead a player to success in most any computer strategy game today. It is more concise and more effective than reading the AoW, and most of all, it delivers results.

[Krasturak]

Gah!

Sun Tzu could be a martian, who cares.

The book is incredibily thought provoking, and is highly relevant as an analogy to many aspects of human society at many levels.

If you don't get it, try a higher education. Krast has heard this helps.

[Kocmoc]

go out, kill all the enemys.....and u will win...

[Sjakihata]

"The book is worth a read but it will not make you smarter, a better leader, or improve your ability to defeat persons strategically." -Kalt

LoL...!

(how do I quote?)

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by Kraellin:
"An irresistible offense is to not shower or bathe for a year and enter battle with no shirt - then charge the enemy flapping your arms like a large chicken. This will cause you to be offensive to anyone you come near."

ok, bsm, now yer just shamelessly copying elmo's tactics. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

K.


[/QUOTE]

Isn't that what [Mel] had [Danny] do in Lethal Weapon 4?

Apparently, he must of been a student of senior Szu.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

"The book is worth a read but it will not make you smarter, a better leader, or improve your ability to defeat persons strategically."

And here Kalt we have the crux of our dispute. The book, when read - WILL make you a better leader - if the lessons it espouses are applied. This is due to its examination of the dynamics between a leader and him men. This is why Sun-Tzu makes specific points concerning discipline, instruction of men, decisiveness, etc.

Will these tenents help you win Shogun:TW or WE/MI? Not directly - although the decisiveness bit does apply. Does it - as you ask - help me win against attacks coming across wider bridges? No it does not. However, The Art of War books (by Tzu and also by Pin) are not meant as an answer-book for every tactical situation. To think that books on warfare written long ago could have such answers is foolhardy. However, they do hold forth basic tenents that allow a wise leader and general to make victory a (near) certainty. Even today, height is an important tactical advantage. Even today, terrain (woods, brush, desert, fields, rivers, etc) plays an integral and crucial role in combat.

Your main beef is that you feel that Sun-Tzu is over-rated. That is your right to believe. But, if you are firm in your view that the work is simplistic, as you stated originally - then you have not dwelt enough on the myriad lessons it offers. The portion - and we do not have the complete work as yet, and may never have it all - of TAoW that we do have is an excellent foundation for tactical thinking, along with a very deep and useful (partial) framework for long term strategic planning.

Each tree in a forest when viewed seperately is a simple yet beautiful thing. After seeing each in its solitude, look at them in pieces and as a whole, and you will find an unexpected and different beauty. Such is also the way of viewing the lessons of ancient writings, such as the Art of War.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[This message has been edited by BSM_Skkzarg (edited 01-07-2002).]

[BakaGaijin]

Quote . . . the students that attend the military colleges of the USA are not born strategists, that is why they read the AoW there, and not after being made colonels.[/QUOTE]

If Sun Tzu's work is revered for making strategists, and it can turn non-strategists into strategists, as you describe here, how is it overrated?

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"If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2

[Grim]

Sjakihata akechi-san : Quote (how do I quote?)[/QUOTE]

you just place at the beggining and at the end of what you have copied/pasted and Voilà!

note: quote as an "e" but if I write it, i'll quote my explanation http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes canons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my canons)
-Trad. libre

[This message has been edited by Grim (edited 01-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Grim (edited 01-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Grim (edited 01-08-2002).]

[Kalt]

Baka, the AoW is one of a myriad of texts academy students read, yet it garners the lions share of general public attention. This is probably why i think it is overrated, since many other texts accomplish the same purpose, some better some worse. Also the book does not turn non-strategists into strategists, the game S:TW is better for that anyway.

BSM, you said it yourself, the book will not make you a better leader unless you 'apply' the lessons effectively. Well since the book espouses mostly obvious truths any simple mistake can be labelled as a 'failure to apply' Sun Tzu. Remember that fundamentally the AoW was derived from personal experiences and set down in rules, and while these rules generally hold true (most are very obvious), there are many situations in which they do not hold true, and variations on situations which change a good book-based plan into a bad one. Once again: experience and your own personal ability to analyze a situation and adapt WITHOUT having a rule in a book to give you the obvious answer will make you a great commander, not the memorization and regurgitation of ancient Chinese strategies. And of course I would bet that the vast majority of the most successful players of strategy games around the world (did not read / do not apply) the AoW in achieving their successes.

I find that the people who praise the AoW for its brilliance are mostly mediocre strategists themselves, and some are downright inept. I think this is the core of my dislike for the book. Besides with little to no knowledge of who I am or how I fare in strategic settings _someone_ decided I was a poor strategist.... hrmmm just because I am unimpressed with a book that doesn't live up to the hype.

[Zone]

Quote Originally posted by Sjakihata Akechi:
(how do I quote?)[/QUOTE]

or click on the far right icon at the top of the post you want to quote - the page with a red arrow. You can then delete what you don't want.



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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]

I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)

[Krasturak]

Krast recommends studying the game 'GO' as well as Shoggy.

Many of the same principles apply.
http://www.well.com/user/mmcadams/gointro.html

Krast thinks the similarities are astonishing, although GO does not have the same exciting pictures and head cut off messages like Shoggy.