From Soldurii to Hundredmen...

[Stefan the Berserker]

Soldurii mentioned by Caesar (http://members.lycos.nl/romans/dbg3/Ch3_22.htm)

Soldurii were the private Escort of any Celtic Leader, from Villiage Chieftans to Kings. "Soldurii" or sacared Warriors in English swore absolute Loyality to their Masters and comitted sucide when he/she died (yes, also she's). Soldurii of a low aristorath usually fought "nudus" (unarmored, not naked), while fellows of a rich oftenly had well-sloped armor and weapons (NOTE: Rich Gauls were heavyly influenced by the romans). Soldurii used the Sword as the primary weapon and a typical Celtic shield (those large ones with two bucketts).

-> Soldurii (Barracks + Temple)
-> Armored Soldurii (Barracks + Large Temple + Blacksmith)

Soldurii should be in, while armored Soldurii as an upgraded Version of Soldurii should also be intended...

---
Good Page on Germanics (http://www.fg-zinnfiguren.de/Warriors%20of%20Arminius.PDF)

This Site here is listened up the second Time, offering very well information based on roman Sources. I already intended the Units in another Thread and I'm making a small mod to show them.

If you read the Information on Soldurii and this Germanic-Site, you'll see their Tacic differs very much from the Units CA has already announced.

[Cebei]

Should berserkers be considered as bararians during Ceasar's era?

[Hurin_Rules]

Another suggestion:

Batavian Light Infantry.

The Batavians were a barbarian tribe (I think Germanic, though possibly Celtic) who were renowned for their ability to swim across lakes and rivers with their weapons and fight on the other side. This would be a really neat unit available to barbarians and perhaps to others as mercenaries, and they would be experts at fording rivers.

Let's keep these suggestions coming for CA, so we don't see any more silly units like wardogs, flaming pigs and chosen axemen.

[Hakonarson]

Berserkers didn't exist by that name in the RTW era, while wardogs and flaming pigs did.

I suspect that most of the "historical" troop types will be in there, and without a list of what's already in making suggestions about what should be in is just shooting in the dark.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Gaulish Units:

Gaestatii (Peasantlike Spearmen)
Soldurii (Light Swordsmen, morale stabile and cheap)
Armored Soldurii (Heavy Swordsmen, able to defeat Legions)
Gaulish Equesters (High valuable Cavallary formed by Aristocraths, Celtic "Knights"/ Should be the King's Unit)

Germanic Units:

Lites (Equivalent to Thralls, "Slaves" fighting as Skirmishers)
Frilings/Fyrds (Absolutely Identical to Fyrds, Free Farmers founding a valuable Spearmen Unit)
Edelings (Noblemen using well Armor and Swords,
Hundredmen (The hundred best Warriors of a Tribe, extremely stronger version of Edelings)

Common Barbarians:

Gastiz Cavallary (Strong Germanic Mercenary Cavallary, avarible to all Neighbours of the Germanics)
Partisans (Cloaking Spearmen, ideal for ambushes)
Romaburgh Warriors (Ex-Legionaires with Barbarian Origin)

-> Desciption of "Romaburgh Warriors"

"In old Sagas many Men are reported to have been Warriors in Service of 'Romaburgh' or 'Raven', these Places are no less than the roman Citys Rome and Ravenna. The Romans indeed intigrated many Men of Barbarian Origin in Units called Auxilia which they trained and equipped after roman Manner. After their Militery Service of 25 Years those Men were given the Civitas Romana, the roman Citizenship, and could keep their whole Arms and Equipment. Most Warriors who returned to their Homelands were now highly regarded People who oftenly became aristorcaths, namely Arminius himself. Their Decendants also kept the Roman Citizenship and were now politically 'Romans' aswell as in the opinion of their Neighbours... The Result of these politics were barbarian Nobles, fighting in roman Manner and seeing themselves as romans."

These Unit should appear in the late stages of the game, leading the way to dark ages.

[PSYCHO]

Better to develop Celtic & German units down tribal lines.

The Germans:

Lots of earthy colours, no intricate patterns on shields as seen with Britons/ Gauls.

The Suevians (general German units)

* Suevian light infantry (general unit / naked to waist, hair in bun atop head, fur, rectangular hexagonal shields, spear ‘framea’, trousers to ankles)
* Suevian medium infantry (nobles / leaders, ‘Spangenhelm’ type helmet, fully clothed, rectangular hexagonal shields, rudimentary armour, sword, dagger, trousers to ankles)
* Suevian light cavalry (square shield, spear, naked to waist, hair in bun atop head, trousers to ankles)


The Chattans (Extremely well disciplined, high valour, Infantry specialists)

* Cattan blutdurstig (bloodthirsty / those who haven’t killed) (extremely long hair / beards, very impatient, spear, dagger, naked to waist, trousers to ankles)
* Cattan heavy infantry (Rectangular shields, spear, javelins, axe, dagger, entrenching tools, hair in pony tail, leather breast armour over tunic tied at waist, trousers to ankles with strappings to knee, capable of complex manoeuvres)


The Tencterians (Highly disciplined, high valour Cavalry specialists)

* Tencterian light cavalry (small round shield, throwing spears, trousers to ankles, leather helmet, naked to waist)
* Tencterian heavy cavalry (small round shield, lance, axe, scale breast armour of bone or leather, trousers to ankles, leather helmet)


The Gothones (Assault specialists)

* Gothone medium infantry (large round shields, short swords, long sleave tunic to above knees belted around waste, hair in pony tail, trousers to ankles)


The Chaucians (Extremely high morale, do or die Infantry)

* Chaucian light infantry (naked to waist, hair plated, tunic, oval shield clipped at top and bottom, spear ‘framea’, trousers to ankles, average fighters that will fight to the last man)


The Batavians (Ancient Berserkers, High Valour Shock Specialists)

* Batavian verrueckt (crazymen) (furs tied at the waist, hair full flowing, trousers to ankles, axe similar to the franciska, knife, small square shield.


The Aryans / Harii (Scary psychological / Night battle specialists)

* Harii uebelgesinnt (evil minded) (Black oval shields, naked to waist and all skin painted black, trousers to ankles, hair in pony tail, spear ‘framea’, dagger, do not engage in the ‘Baritus’ prefer silence and stealth until in battle, a love for slaughter and rape, good at surprise attacks)


The Aestyans (Superstitious guys that like to go clubbing)

* Aestyan Warband (hair in bun atop head, trousers to ankles, naked to the waist, boars painted in red ochre on body, bone boar jewellery, wooden clubs)


The Fennians (Feral Foresters)

* Fennian Jaegers (Hunters) (Hair long and matted, hardy with excellent stamina, naked except for furs tied around waste, bare footed, bows, arrows and knives of bone, excel at hiding in any terrain)


etc etc

....now aren't they alot more interesting than 'Chosen axemen and their ilk?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

The Question how to implant Tribes is not easy, one mistake encountered again by CA's work:

There are two Germanic Factions in RTW: Germanics and Norsemen.

But Norsemen ARE Germanics, the Danes lived in southern Germany before they captured Juetland. Inhabitants of Juetland in the Roman Era where the Cimbri and Teutons. Sweden was in this time ruled by the Gautens, relatives of the Goths.

I did rather turn the Faction "Norsemen" into Picts, Lithuania or some else Faction left undisplayed...

[magnatz]

Excellent site on barbarians and ancient armies in general:
http://www.barbari.it/documenti/rs/eserciti/

(in Italian, but unit descriptions hopefully are understandable)

[The Wizard]

Oh... so the armored barbarians with swords in the Romans vs Celts movie are armoured Soldurii... that's cool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Oaty]

Come on now need something as cool as the Slavic warriors in MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[The Wizard]

I do hope RTW's berserkers match up to the viking berserkers... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

The Intro Movie of Rome: Total War on the Vikings Invasion Cd is full of mistakes. It shows Legionaires useing Bows, but there were no Legionaire Archers only Mercenary Units were equipped with Bows.

The Barbarians are all naked, but the Latin word "nudus" doesn't mean naked. It means "unarmored".

The Barbarians have funny Tattoos, there were indeed ritual Tatoos within the Gauls but those are totally diffrent.

The Roman Leader kills the Gaulish Leader. This is unrealistic through roman Leaders preffered to stay absent of the Battle once, and that an arrogant Julius-like can't defeat an experianced Celtic Warlord second.

[The Wizard]

They were fighting a Briton army... T_T;

and they were unarmored... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[magnatz]

Hmm, nudus does mean "naked" and by extension "unarmored", but I think that Tacitus used it in the latter meaning, because it makes a lot of more sense http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .

As for the Roman general singlehandedly killing a enemy general, this is just one of a number of recorded examples:

Quote[/b] ]A few years after, a battle was fought with the Gauls within the borders of Italy, and an end put to the war, in the consulship of Marcus Claudius Marcellus and Cnaeus Cornelius Scipio. Marcellus took the field with a small body of horse, and slew the king of the Gauls, Viridomarus, with his own hand. Afterwards, in conjunction with his colleague, he cut to pieces a numerous army of the Gauls, stormed Milan, and carried off a vast booty to Rome. Marcellus, at his triumph, bore the spoils of the Gaul, fixed upon a pole on his shoulders.

-- Eutropius, History of Rome


Other generals that did that in republican times were Romulus against king Acron of the Sabines, and Aulus Cornelius Cossus against the Etruscans of Fidenae.

XXI. QUI SPOLIA OPIMA RETTULERUNT.
Romulus de Agrone Caeninensium rege.
Cossus Cornelius de Larte Tolumnio Veientium rege.
Claudius Marcellus de Viridomaro rege Gallorum.

The "spoliae opimae" (the armor and weapons of an enemy leader killed in combat by the general) were carried in triumph, then exposed in the Jupiter Feretrium Temple on the Capitolium Hill.

In early imperial times Nero Claudius Drusus (father of emperor Claudius) and Marcus Licinius Crassus (nephew of the triumvir) obtained the "Spolia Opima". However Augustus put some additional restrictions on the claim in order to stop generals from becoming too popular, for example claimants had to be consuls.

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (PSYCHO @ Oct. 11 2003,21:32)]The Chaucians (Extremely high morale, do or die Infantry)

* Chaucian light infantry (naked to waist, hair plated, tunic, oval shield clipped at top and bottom, spear ‘framea’, trousers to ankles, average fighters that will fight to the last man)


The Batavians (Ancient Berserkers, High Valour Shock Specialists)

* Batavian verrueckt (crazymen) (furs tied at the waist, hair full flowing, trousers to ankles, axe similar to the franciska, knife, small square shield.
Dutchies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

(ok, Chaucians were a tribe living in what is today Friesland, whatever http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif )

[magnatz]

If axe-yielding barbarian have to be in the game then why not use the Longobards ?

Longobards are first mentioned by Tacitus and they did use axes (real battle axes, not throwing axes like the francisca), so IMHO they fit the role better than the Chosen Axemen.

[Nowake]

Because they were a tribe and not mere a type of warrior.

[longjohn2]

The Aryans sound intersting. Is there is any historical basis for these, or did you just make them up ?

[spmetla]

Aren't the Arayans just the Indo-Europeans that took control of Europe, Persia, and Northern India? I didn't think there were an actual "clan" of Arayans.

[magnatz]

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ Oct. 25 2003,16:21)]Because they were a tribe and not mere a type of warrior.
Good point, but then the same argument applies to most of the units proposed in this thread...
even the Suevi, Batavians and so on were tribes, and not some generic type of warrior.

[magnatz]

Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ Oct. 25 2003,18:35)]The Aryans sound intersting. Is there is any historical basis for these, or did you just make them up ?
Aryans definitely existed, but in a very different time and place.

Info here:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCINDIA/ARYANS.HTM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan
http://www.webindia123.com/history....ans.htm (http://www.webindia123.com/history/ANCIENT/aryans%20and%20vedic%20period/aryans.htm)

[The Wizard]

Wasn't that... Mauryans? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[magnatz]

Mauryans belong to a much later period than the Aryans, ie around 3rd century BC. As the Aryans, Mauryans lived in India, so bringing Mauryans units in the game would require significant reality stretching (and even then they would rather belong to the Parthian faction, not to the Germans).

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCINDIA/MAURYA.HTM
http://www.karnatakacoins.com/mauryan-H.htm

[Hurin_Rules]

Aryan and Indo-European are synonymous. The term Indo-European is now preferred because of the association of the term Aryan with Nazism.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/a/aryan.asp

The Aryans/Indo-Europeans most definitely existed, though some of the exploits attributed to them (and perhaps also their homogeneity) have been exaggerated. Their language is the ancestor of most ancient and modern European languages, including Latin, Greek, Celtic, German, French, Spanish and English.

[Nowake]

But they didn't originated from India, but from Caucasus.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]The Aryans sound intersting. Is there is any historical basis for these, or did you just make them up ?

I think these Units don't exist really. I can give sources for those I posted.

The Aryans or "Arier" in german are the Anchestors of Germanics and Celts also referred as the Indo-Europeans. Other Aryan Tribes also invaded India, which caused the small relativeness of Indish Language with german which the scientist Johannes Bopp discovered. "Birke" means the same in german and Indish.

The Barbarians didn't fought naked altrough it makes no sense why Mediterranian Cultures are all clothed, but the Barbarians living in cold areas are naked in RTW. The Style of Celtic and Germanic Clothes and armor is just Identic to Dark Ages, which makes the thing very easy to imagine.

Simply think you must create LOTR-Units for Rohan or Gondor, then put them in other roles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Same affects General-Pics

[PSYCHO]

Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ Oct. 25 2003,18:35)]The Aryans sound intersting. Is there is any historical basis for these, or did you just make them up ?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
YES ARYANS DID EXIST
Read Tacitus' "Agricola & Germania" guys

There are other more obscure refereneces but this is the clearest

To make an informed decision it is better to study actual evidence from the period rather than rely on the first thing that comes up on interenet search engines http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers

[magnatz]

Better still if you read it in the original Latin, rather than rely on translations http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Quote[/b] ] Ceterum Harii super vires, quibus enumeratos paulo ante populos antecedunt, truces insitae feritati arte ac tempore lenocinantur: nigra scuta, tincta corpora; atras ad proelia noctes legunt ipsaque formidine atque umbra feralis exercitus terrorem inferunt, nullo hostium sustinente novum ac velut infernum adspectum; nam primi in omnibus proeliis oculi vincuntur.
So Tacitus called this tribe just Harii (singular: Harus).
Then in 20th century Germany they were promoted to Aryans , but this is another story.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

EDIT: these guys do belong in the game though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[PSYCHO]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif touch'e

I have a Penguin Classic 'English' translation by Harold B Mattingly and S. A. Hanford (February 1971) so I'm not too sure about any implied German conspiracy. Yes your correct about the original Latin but not sure of the reason for any change in the translation. Hmmm ... must do some research.

Interesting stuff eh magnatz?

Whether called "Harii" or "Aryan" ...no difference really. The point here is that interesting units can be garnered from history.

Cheers

[magnatz]

Interesting indeed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

And I do agree 100% with your point. History supplies many more interesting units than a dozen hollywood scripters on drugs could ever make up in a weekend http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[The Wizard]

Yes, but two weekends will usually do the trick... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[magnatz]

Don't tell me, I just saw the scene pics of the new movie Troy.

Did you know that the Trojans invented the umbrella ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Hurin_Rules]

I don't think you can equate Tacitus' Harii with the Aryans. The Aryan invasions occurred at least 1000 years before Tacitus was writing.

[longjohn2]

Anyone want to give me chapter and verse for Tacitus, or do I have to read the whole book again.

[magnatz]

Germania, chapter 43
text here: http://www.geocities.com/aeldricc/tacitus_germania.html

Quote[/b] ] Now the Aryans, besides their forces, in which they surpass the several nations just recounted, are in their persons stern and truculent; and even humour and improve their natural grimness and ferocity by art and time. They wear black shields, their bodies are painted black, they choose dark nights for engaging in battle; and by the very awe and ghastly hue of their army, strike the enemy with dread, as none can bear this their aspect so surprising and as it were quite infernal. For, in all battles the eyes are vanquished first.
NB: As Hurin_Rules says the name "Aryans" in the english translation is misleading, because at the time Tacitus wrote the real Aryans had been extinct from a couple of thousand years (after having migrated in India, which didn't help communications either)... that's why Tacitus called that tribe Harii rather then Ariani.

[PSYCHO]

Good job magnatz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Never know...if longjohn is really kind we may even get to see these guys in RTW Now that would rock

Wonder if CA have spoken to the likes of Adrian Goldsworthy etc about the period? Sure he'd be eager to be involved. The man's far more passionate about this period than I ... if that's possible? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I think they did use some history buff for STW and you could see his imput with all the nice historical features and ambience.

Thanks for the info on the Aryan migration. So am I correct in the assumption that Tacitus just called the residents by the established name of the area...similar to say someone from German decent living in France all their lives becoming known by proxi as French?


Cheers

[longjohn2]

Thanks for the info. I should probably read Tacitus again before we ship the game.
The Harii do sound interesting, apart from the difficulties an all black unit would cause with our faction based colouring scheme. I'm afraid I can't promise that they'll go into the game, but I will raise them with our art supremo.

Incidentally I met Adrian Goldsworthy while we were doing the Time Commanders project, He's an excellent fellow, and very kindly gave me a copy of his new book.

[longjohn2]

Thanks for the info. I should probably read Tacitus again before we ship the game.
The Harii do sound interesting, apart from the difficulties an all black unit would cause with our faction based colouring scheme. I'm afraid I can't promise that they'll go into the game, but I will raise them with our art supremo.

Incidentally I met Adrian Goldsworthy while we were doing the Time Commanders project, He's an excellent fellow, and very kindly gave me a copy of his new book.

[PSYCHO]

Thanks for the feedback longjohn2.

"The Harii do sound interesting...I will raise them with our art supremo" - LJ2

Fantastic Whether or not their included in the end, we appreciate you and other CA staff taking the time to at least consider these historically based units. Thanks mate

"Incidentally I met Adrian Goldsworthy ...He's an excellent fellow, and very kindly gave me a copy of his new book" - LJ2

Lucky buggar So what is his "new book"? ..something new?

Cheers

[longjohn2]

Adrian's new book is "The Complete Roman Army". It covers the army from the republic up until the late empire, with several chapters on the daily life of soldiers. More of an introduction than a deep scholarly work, though he makes one or two intersting points. It's very well illustrated with pictures and diagrams too.
Not really enough depth for those of you who know your history well, but I'd recommend it for anyone who's new to the subject

[PSYCHO]

Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ Nov. 08 2003,11:52)]Adrian's new book is "The Complete Roman Army". It covers the army from the republic up until the late empire, with several chapters on the daily life of soldiers. More of an introduction than a deep scholarly work, though he makes one or two intersting points. It's very well illustrated with pictures and diagrams too.
Not really enough depth for those of you who know your history well, but I'd recommend it for anyone who's new to the subject

Thanks, sounds interesting. Might see if I can grab a copy.

Thanks

[oblivious maximus]

xxxx

[oblivious maximus]

Indeed the Airyanem Vaejah are from the area between the Aral Sea and Iran.

I hope i dont see these.

The Nazis sure did mess alot up. You cant use swastikas.
If they had used the Pillsbury Doughboy as symbol, it would be banned now.Anyway, different subject.

[RisingSun]

Wait... So LJ2 was on the set of TC... Are you one of the controllers??? The short haired one or the one with the pony tail? Or one of them controlling the other army? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif