Polish Strategies

[mosborne]

Can anyone suggest some strategy ideas for the Poles? They are the one faction I can seem to master. The italians are my other difficult faction, but with them, I can atleast manage a respectable 2nd place in Glorious Achievements. With the Poles, simple survival is all I manage. I never manage to thrive, let alone win. I can usually expand into the Baltic, pick-up Bohemia or even Bavaria when the HRE has a civil war, take Volhinya (sp), and sometimes even Lithuania. By then I'm broke and it is all donw hill from there. I know that the Poles are in a difficult position, but there must be someone out there who has done well with them. Help

In general, I struggle balancing income & cash with tech development & military build-up. If I build armies large enough to defend Poland and conquer a few provinces, I eventually run out of money. Investment in tech development hastens the result, as although I have some tougher units and can conquer more territory, the revenues gained don't offset the expenses of developing better quality units.

On the other hand, when I invest in agricultural development and Baltic trade, to try and increase cash flow, I find myself too weak to defend myself. I am set upon by neighbors with very large armies, and depsite my ability to win battles, I am ultimately overwhelmed by shear numbers. My small forces just can't be everywhere at once.

Assuming I am competent in terms of making alliances, staying on the good side of the Pope, avoiding ravaging Crusaders, and winning battles even when moderately outnumbered, WHAT CAN I DO? What am I missing? What strategies do you follow?

[DemonArchangel]

Ripping off vanya...

GAH

Capture Pomerania, Trade with ships

GAH

Ok, seriously, capture pomerania and trade with ships, then conquer russia for more trade goods.

[Basileus]

i usualy expand east and try to get moldavia so that i can build avars, kiev kazar chrimea then i go for promerania prussia etc..and build build up trade on both sides...you need to expand quick though..when you see HRE in trouble attack em and grab what you can

[mosborne]

Please don't take this wrong, but I am looking for more specific ideas, rather than overal stratgic direction. I realize that expansion is important, that the lands of the East are fertile, and that Baltic trade through Pomerania , Lithuania, etc. will bring add'l income, and I have prusued these avenues. My point is that I am having difficulty reaping substantial benefits from any of these options. The Poles seem to be between a rock and a hard place: a trade strategy seems to result in severe military vulnerability, and a strong army and territorial conquest seems to deplete the coffers.

I have conquered Pomerania, Prussia, Lithuania, et. al., but then have found myself 1) so cash strapped that I can not invest in enough ships to trade over great distances, 2) stretched so thin militarily that I am easy prey for my neighbors, or 3) so far behind technologically that I am easily outclassed and fall FAR behind in Glorious Achievements by the end game.

I recently discovered Avar Nobles and found them fairly tough fighters. I was not as impressed as I would have thought however, given some of the comments I've seen on this site. I will still pursue getting and developing Moldavia early though.

In general terms, one of you says that trade is the avenue for success and the other advocates eastward expansion. Can you be more SPECIFIC in how YOU have successfully proceeded? Did you concentrate on building up ($$&#036http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif your home provinces then burst out? Did you expand fast with low tech armies, ignoring trade, then invest heavily in agriculture after you've got a larger kingdom? Did you invest in a large trade empire at the expense of military security (army size and number)?

Anxiously awaiting further advice.

[Vanya]

GAH

To polish properly, you must "wax on" for right shoe and "wax off" for left shoe.

Or is it the other way around?

Lets see... If the shoe is in front of you and facing away, you apply the right hand rule to figure out the angular direction...

Er...

But if the shoe is in front of you AND facing you, then you must hold your hand upside down.

For shoes that are behind you, Vanya thinks you must bend over so your head fits snuggly between your knees and apply the hand rule up-side-down.

Hand rule: hand extended palm facing your face (or away depending on scenario). You curl your fingers in and see where thumb points. You use circular motions that follow your thumb.

ALTERNATIVE
If that all seemed too complicated for youz, you can always pay one of them dudes at the airport to polish shoes for you.

BEYOND MERE POLISHING
Now, if youz was talking about polishing the torpedo... Vanya welcomes any womenz whom He deems worthy to tackle the issue... just yell "GAH" at the top of your lungs, and where ever you are, Vanya will find you... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif If youz are a man and do this, Vanya will cut your head off... twice... in no particular order.

GAH

[Fortebraccio]

Avar Nobles shouldn't be available, not even in Early, as they were utterly eradicated around IX century. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

There was a common Rus saying in XII century that stated "To perish like the Avars: they left no race, nor heirs"

I completed my very first campaign with the Polish. My strategy was simple: I immediately sealed an alliance with both Hungarians and Germans, and launched a very aggressive campaign against my eastern neighbours. In the early years of my Polish kingdom my main source of income were...ransoms and confiscated land. I employed an army of spearmen, polish retainers and archers, crushing rebel states and quelling rebellions in freshly conquered provinces. I managed to get a hold in both Lithuania and Khazar before Novgorod and Byzantium could take them, and from the development of those provinces I built the fondations of a trading empire. Creating a ship chain from the Black Sea to the Eastern Mediterranean and to the Adriatic provided me with a reasonable income, and luckily by that time I was at peace with every faction.
My next move was the invasion of Sweden, again a very rich province in terms of trading income...and in the meanwhile, I reinforced my western border. From that point, the only challenge I had to face was building of the University of Jagellona before the dead line.
From my experience with the Polish, a very aggressive military campaign doesn't exclude trading opportunities, nay, it is the only way to get them.
Don't be afraid of pitting your low tech army against hordes of unresting peasants...their confiscated lands can give you the florins you need to build a glorious empire http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[el_slapper]

Every game is different, so noone can be more accurate. Polish cant be strong without being opportunist. Watch for the Germans, & hope for a civil war, the grab what you can. And conquer Sweden. At all costs.

And invest in spies, they reduce the garrison costs.

[Sir Chauncy]

I happen to agree the Fortebraccio (good name by the way), Whenever I am a bit low on funds I whip up a frenzy in a newly conquered or easily rebelious province and capture the peasants in their thousands. It is very handy if you can do this in a place where they cannot retreat from as well, that way, if any manage to excape off the field, they end up as prisoners anyway. It is also a very good way to build up generals as usually peasant armies outnumber you, but are easily deafeated.

Once, as Spain I sent a crusade to Lithuania, packed it with Knights and went to town, I spent the next 20 odd year moving the completed Crusade between Lithuania and Lovinia, with them rebelling constanly, I may have lost about 100 men by the end of it and had a rank 9 utterly fearless general. It is the only time I have ever seen anyone awarded this rather than be given a title or born with it. I must have earned hundreds of thousands of florins in ransoms and confiscated lands. It was beautiful.

[Jxrc]

I have only started a few campaign as the Polish but it seems to me that focusing on expansion in the east only can become tricky when the clock strikes 1230 since you get that massive golden mob errupting in your back and that you are normally not in a position to mass a vast army to stop them immediately.

Last time they arrived in Khazar, Georgia and Volga-Bulgaria. Managed to win the long battle in Khazar but lost in V-B and the Byzantines abadonned Georgia ... Found myself with five stacks of GH in V-B and six in Georgia. Needless to say I had nothing close to sufficient to guard all the threatened provinces ... Took me ages to recover ...

Morality: do not put all your eggs in one basket. Try at least to grab Sweden and Norway and, if possible, try to get rid of the Hungarian, Hungary being nice province with good land and iron. Going for a piece of the HRE is more tricky since the provinces are not half as good, since you will need more troops than you can afford to protect them from the remaining German and/or the French/English.

Just my two cents http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[RJV]

Hi,

Consolidate western border (peace with HRE and anyone else who comes calling), take Pomerania and Prussia. Next goal is Lithuania. Main troop province Poland, progress to ships/trade in Prussia (I think) - then head for Sweden. If you need then to take out the Danes you can do so, though I tend not to bother. Troops by now should be concentrating in Poland and Lith, and I tend to stick with Retainers, woodsmen and archers (though it depends on your style of play I guess). I usually strike out east a little at this point and aim for Kiev, and depending on my mood I sometimes go for the black sea trade routes. If you're aggressive and/or get caught up with fighting the Byz then use Kiev for troops instead. Either way you need at least one trade area (Baltic or Black Sea) without any you're stuck. Then it's pretty much suck it and see - if there's Civil war in HRE they can be easy pickings, a province at a time and there's always the option to go for peace if you need to. Novgorodian (?) and the other eastern rebel (if the Byz don't get there first - I like to grab one or two and leave Khazar for the Byz, they're welcome to it for now) provinces can be taken if you like, but I find they don't add that much value to the empire early on, and tend to attack them later and use them as a training ground for one of my generals in the mid-game.
By now you'll need to see how the game is going before taking the next step, but that kind of scheme usually gets me up and running.
Hope that helps.

Cheers.

[econ21]

There was a Polish campaign in the PBM section of these forums ("Who wants to be king of Poland?" or some such) that should give you some specifics.

I have always found the Poles tough because they are far too weak - economically and strategically - to turtle and trade, which is what I like to do eg with the English. In the PBM campaign, IIRC, the Polish kings just conquered as many rebel/Novogorad provinces as quickly as possible. I participated and by the end of my reign, taking about one province a turn, the whole Eastern map edge was purple. The big thing about this is that it means you only have to garrison your Western border, which can be as little as 6 or so provinces. HRE, Hungary, Byzantium etc seem to be rather pacific at least initially and if you move fast you can cut them off from the East. After you have conquered the East, you have a pretty strong economic base to up-tech and beat up your neighbours. I would not prioritise trade - yes, it's great in the long run, but a fairly early "rush" strategy is what you need to escape from the hard starting position. To do that you need numbers - the provinces you will take are not very loyal initially. Woodsmen help, as does bribery if you can afford it.

It is very much a tight-rope walk, especially early, so I can see you having trouble. As I say, I have trouble as the Poles solo and am grateful for having such bold predecessors in the PBM game.

[NewJeffCT]

Rather than expand East as the Poles, I expanded North as quickly as possible. Take the two P provinces directly to your North as quickly as possible and then concentrate those two provinces on getting to a port & shipwright and then building ships. Keep your original two provinces and use them for troop development. When you are able, get across to Sweden & Norway. Your mounted crossbows and archers should be able to whittle down the Viking rebels there quite a bit, allowing any militia sergeants, feudal men at arms or royal knights to make short work of the remnants. From there, move East to Livonia & Lithuania, which are hopefully still rebel provinces. If you secure those provinces, you will have a good base to start expanding your trade and building your military tech. From there, wait for the inevitable HRE civil war to snag a province or two, see if you can expand southeast to Kiev and start building trade down around the Black Sea and Constantinople, and also see if you can snag Denmark as well...especially if they are weakened from attacking the HRE.

[mosborne]

Grazie Fortebraccio Merci Jxrc Cheers to Simon, Sir Chauncy, and RJV And Thanks to NewJeff in CT. All brilliant advice and just the kind of ideas I was looking for. I'll give the Poles another go, and give the Rus, the HRE and the Hungarians a show

[Jxrc]

That's the spirit. Have fun.

Good luck

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

I have played twice with the Poles, first time I expanded east but within several years clashed with Byz, and then Hungary nad Germany made opportunuistic attacks. Finally the Mongols turned up and wiped out first the Byz, and then me (Novgorod was long gone). Also the Eastern terrritories had low loyalty, presumably b/c of the pagan religion.

Second time round had more succfess with this: Take Hungary first turn Very rich and with iron and mines. Plus you get a 2nd castle quite quickly. Hungary has a lot of horse archers but with a combo of Polish retainers and spears you can skewer them. If the king retreats to Croatia you can get a nice ransom and Serbia has gold Concentrate on developing Poland and Hungary for the moment and ally with Byz and HRE. When the Pope complains stop attacking Hungary and try to take Pomernia and Prussia. Now you have three command bonus provinces and two big armies in the key Poland and Hungary which should be adequate to cover the remaining provs. Build up and send out bishops to convert the East, and when you have sufficient extra troops grab Lithuania (before the Byz get there). Watch for weakness in the HRE and as and when possible take Sewden/ Norway. Then when you are feeling strong enough expand again

[Eastside Character]

So maybe now a piece of advice from a pole http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif :
First conquer these provinces (one at the year)
-moldavia
-pomerania
-volhynia
-prussia
Then take some 4-5 years, build new armies,invest a bit,but make sure that loyalty of these new coquered lands is low so you can make some money slaughtering annual rebelions.
After this time of preparations attack:
-lithuania
-kiev
-chernigov
-smolensk
Then again some 4-5 years for repair/rebuid, and constant production of new units. If the provinces I just mentioned were russian/novgorod before - try to keep them happy, if not - you know what to do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif.
BTW always try to be allied with pope and the hungarians, and with the byzantines too.
So after that you have smolensk,
attack simultaniously:
-novgorod
-muscovy
-pereyalsavl
and the year after
-latvia
-crimea (if not Byz)
-khazar (if not Byz)
If you have all those provinces and want more advice,...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Marshal Murat]

I think you should take all the rebels you can before other nations, begin trading, and send out spies to create civil unrest, and conquer as such. Taking on the HRE is hard, but with the right tactics you can defeat them, the key is to kill thier king. Try and kill the head.

[Quokka]

I started playing a Polish GA v1.1 campaign after reading this thread to see what happened. Its a fast game as there is a lot of time when you can't do anything. Its much better now in 1231. I think I played for 3 hours to get to the Mongol invasion.

I bribed Pomerania first turn and Moldavia 2 turns later while building a few Spears to suppress rebellions. I generally had to save a few turns to get the key buildings but concentrated on Farming in Poland and gettting Ships in Pomerania. I got lucky and the Rebels deserted Prussia to kill off Novgorod in 1095 so I got that for free.
Idiotic 40 Kat attacks by the Byz saw the rest of the close provinces rebel in numbers way too large for a long time yet and they were eventually taken by the Turks anyway. Moldavia built towards Ships whenever I had any money to spare. I was basically a farmer the whole time and prayed that no one attacked me and my pitiful forces. I allied with just about everyone to try and prevent this.
After a few years trading, it took until 1150 or so before I got an income above 500 Fl, I got to Sweden, then the Danes attacked and lost, so I took Denmark as well. Once I got Sweden online to trade I was making around 2000 Fl a turn and was able to build up a little, but building armies to attack drained that to around 500 Fl very quickly.
I found the Baltic trade routes to be much better as Western Europe was initially much more stable than the ME and ports survived. The break through for money came when I bribed Venice. A few years later ~1205 I got my fleet to extend from the Baltic to the Black Sea and now I make 12,000 Fl a year and can't spend it all, not enough provinces to build anything in. I have managed to expand into Livonia (bribery) and Lithuania and Novgorod after Novgorod reappeared and attacked Livonia. I also have Carpathia, Bohemia(bribery) and Croatia(bribery). The HRE didn't rebel until 1210 and I only took Carpathia in 1225 after the Turks(allies) had all but killed off the Hungarians.
The 12,000 Fl is despite there only being a few ports in existence, Constantinople, Bulgaria, Kiev, Greece, Sicily, Tuscany, Toulouse, Aquitaine, Brittany and Friesland. The rest are in my territory, so who knows how high that figure would be if the AI pulled its finger out and built anything besides peasants.
I got very lucky in the beginning that no one attacked me. My first battle was in 1150 when I took Sweden and the Danes attacked. My greatest loss of troops was the continual Crusades that ALL seemed to go through Poland. Saxony (HRE, later French)-Denmark(me)-Pomerania(me)-Poland(me)-Moldavia(me)-Trebizond. I was too weak to say no and the 73% Zeal in Poland meant many troops lost if they stayed. There was a period of about 10 years when I had no garrison in Poland or Moldavia as I had one German and two French Crusades there. One of the French Crusades was headed to Tuscany but still came through Poland http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
I don't know if I can survive the Horde. Only Poland, Carpathia and Bohemia can build Chiv Sgts and only Poland can build CMAA and Retainers and I have less than 1000 troops with Chiv in their name. The horde has to get through the Turks to get to me and they have huge forces and surprisingly that are not the usual peasant crap, I don't know how but they have some JHI so I hope they stick it to them.
I am coming second in the GA points by 1. The Turks are first with their huge conquest bonus and they have Jihaded(?) to Antioch and Tripoli and are currently seiging Palestine with another. I am not too far off the University in Poland as Poland is building its Citadel now.
Its an interesting game.

[mystic brew]

well, after a little play-testing, I have the following thoughts on what to do early doors.

1. you are very weak early. emissaries and princess away. make peace with everyone, marry the HRE if poss. once your emissary has a few stars from cruisin' about bribe the 4 HA units to your east.

2. start thumping out spears as quick as you can. Build an inn in Silesia so you can start producing troops somewhere else.

3. invade Prussia/Pomerania. Start working towards ships there. Long term aim is to invade Sweden.

4. invade Moldavia. Avar nobles are tanks in early - they are a match for feudal knights and only need a horse breeder and armourer. you should be able to field a few units of heavy cav early on, certainly enough to sweep Novgorod from the map.

5. your initial heirs don't seem to be that great, so you have to tech up. encourage rebellion, make sure you use your heirs in 1 rank frontal charges against peasants, get those morale V&Vs

6. your armies are ok, but with very weak morale. woodsmen are great flanking units, but they are essentially peasants with a good charge... build churches.

[Gregoshi]

New patron gurge posts the following contribution on this topic:

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I've played lots of games as Polish, in fact I barely even tried any other faction. Even on expert I can win almost every time. I only have v1.1 and MedMod 1.85 so I don't know how well my strategies would work in VI, but FWIW here's what I do.

I usually take Pomerania or Moldavia first, then Prussia and Volhynia as soon as I can. Only build forts and border forts in these provinces and keep them lightly garrisoned. Build a fort and bowyer in Silesia and crank out woodsmen and a few archers (more archers if they are cheap like in MedMod). Build spears and whatever you need for feudal men at arms in Poland. Also work in 40% farming for both starting provinces somewhere along the way.

Ignore trading because its really not woth the expense till you get Lithuania. Instead build a good size army of spears, woodsmen and archers with a few fmaa that have just started being produced.

I rarely ally with HRE but instead ally with the French and anyone they are allied with, as well as the Hungarians. When the French and HRE start fighting look for any opportunity to take Bohemia and Brandenburg. Many times I have teamed up with the French in a kind of reverse-World War 2 where we squish Germany between us. If the HRE looks to powerful use the army to get Lithuania and Kiev(if the byzantines don't already have it) and attack the Germans later. Of course always keep a defensive army in Poland. The Hungarians are generally a good ally unless you leave the place toatlly undefended.

Once I have my empire secured from Bohemia to Lithuania I start building up for Baltic trade, setting up Bohemia for upgraded foot units and getting retainers in Poland. Once you get trade going things are fairly easy as long as you stay allied to the major sea power in the area. I generally leave the eastern border at Lithuania/Livonia/Kiev and let whoever owns the steppes take the brunt of the Horde's assault.

When you are strong enough (or the Horde has weakened enough) push them back and take all the east. From then on the game is pretty much won, though things can get interesting if another superpower has arisen.
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His original post can be found here: Polish Strategies in the EH (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=11667)

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

My strategy with this faction is basically don't overextend yourself. If you conquer HRE provinces raze them and depart. They will revolt and the rebels will form a buffer between you and the HRE. Naturally wait until the HRE is invoved in a war somewhere else when you attack. A way to cheat is to let a undeveloped province revolt ( I use Prussia) when you pacify the province the confiscated properties can provide a lot of income. Never fails for me. If playing early bribe the rebels in Volhynia ASAP they will provide horsearchers and you get a province.