View Full Version : Naginata
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-09-2001, 09:17
I don't have Mongol Invasion (yet!!!), but I was wondering as to the status of naginata infantry and cavalry. The Naginata of the 1400s was the most destructive weapon an infantry could have (weapons were designed specifically to topple a naginata equipped infantry), but they were the worst thing possible for cavalry. Can anyone give me some info on the units.
Also, I noticed the crossbow was added. I was wondering to the status of that in this game. Historically, the crossbow was one of the deadliest ranged weapons in existence.
Thanks
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For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly
Tsukahara Bokuden
BSM_Skkzarg
12-09-2001, 10:27
Naginata infantry is your tank - its HIGHLY defensive and when used correctly can stem the tide of multiple units.
Naginata Cav are offensive in nature, but less well armored than heavy Cav. With the patch (1.02) Naginata cav are well balanced for the role they should cover. They originally were a bit too strong, but now are slightly inferior overall to Heavy Cav.
Note that if you run cav into a spear - regardless of cav type - you will pay heavily.
Lastly - Xbowmen. Only available in the Mongol campaign, Xbows are extremely deadly. While they lack the range of a samurai archer (Only by a bit) and are made up of ashigaru and thus prone to rout in addition to being absolutely crummy at H2H combat, their shots often are devastating to the enemy forces - including the dreaded MLC and MHC. However, they are a trick to use correctly, as they cannot fire from behind other troops and have a slow ROF, thus a hard charging group of MHC has a good chance of withstanding the initial volley and hitting the Xbow line. Proper backup is required for these units.... Note that while they have a high penetration factor - they are not quite as effective as the later muskets, due to the ROF difference and the morale hit that gunpowder cause.
Qapla!
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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-09-2001, 10:43
Thanks...
You see, I have been reading up on Samurai, Sengoku Jidai, etc, and found out many things. Spearmen were ashigaru, as were archers. It was considered dishonorable for a Samurai to enter combat with a bow. True Samurai carried whatever weapon they chose. Units tended to be formed of 1 samurai with 5 to 10 Ashigaru in attendance. Slightly different from the game.
P.S. Naginata Cavlary???? Stupid idea.
Naginata are indeed your tank units,good for bridge crossings,and will soak up a lot of arrows before taking on heavy casualties,follwed up with monks or nods for support.By themselves they dont seem to do as well.
I tend not to use the Nagi cav any more since the patch.
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TeuTonic
My NC is still getting the most kill over YC and HC.
--goldfish
Quote Originally posted by tootee:
My NC is still getting the most kill over YC and HC.
--goldfish[/QUOTE]
NC is designed for frontal attacks, therefore in MOST cases you will tend to see it as 'stronger' than HC. But in fact, statwise and in occasions in battle, you will notice the true power of the HC. Try stopping a flanking manouver with a HC. Try to engage a HC with ANY unit except ys...
But never use a HC on an attacking line...
Tera
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Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.
Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif
Ryuzoji Shingen,
The naginata weapon does not seem to be modelled correctly within the game. The naginata infantry should be getting a bonus against cavalry with that weapon, but they don't. In the game, it is a unit that takes a very long time to defeat or to loose to whichever is going to happen.
Extremely heavily armored units like the NI and the HC are apparently out of place historically. If the Japanese cav were CA, YC and HC only with the HC having the NC's capability that would be all you need. You would loose the HC's WM killing capability.
The Xbow is modelled as rather inaccurate, but my understanding is that it was an accurate weapon. I don't know how you could increase the accuracy without making the unit too effective for it's cost.
MizuYuuki ~~~
NI can hold a line forever, but are so slow to walk and swing weapons that they can virtually hurt nothing. For those reasons, they are best used to do all the dirty work (cannon foder, that is), and are officialy the most unglorious units (but still useful) in the army.
I tend to have better luck with HC than NC. With the new patch, HC is by far the strongest Japanese cavalry, no questions here. NC are stronger than YC, but too slow to catch those pesty CAs.
Sometimes I use HC for frontal assualt, NC and YC for flanking. The high defensive value and decent armor allow HC to absorb a lot of abuse and hold it long enough for other flanking troops to join in and rout the enemy.
Ryuzoji, I agree with all you said except one thing. The bow was not dishonorable. It had fallen out of favor by the 16th century but it was hardly ridiculed. Indeed it was the weapon of choice in earlier times.
You are too right about samurai using whatever they liked (including guns) with many being constantly attended by retainers, some of whom were on foot while they themselves were mounted. The games depiction of homogeneous units with similar weapons is a concession to simpler design. With everything else this game has going for it, an over abundance of unit types is not much of an issue.
Quote Originally posted by Ryuzoji Shingen:
Also, I noticed the crossbow was added. I was wondering to the status of that in this game. Historically, the crossbow was one of the deadliest ranged weapons in existence.
[/QUOTE]
Not sure about Japanese crossbow, but I know that even before the Mongol golden horde, Chinese had already used some massive crossbows.
Some of them were so large that it need several men to operate on one single "crossbow". Such a crossbow can fire arrows as long as a man and can penetrate shields covered with several layers of hardened ox skin, from a distance.
Other crossbows can fire multiple arrows all at once in one shot. And most of the time, the arrows were dipped with poison.
Trivia for the day: The huge crossbow that fired bolts as long as a man was called a Ballista.
Sir Chauncy
12-11-2001, 21:45
Maybe i have the wrong end of the stick but isn't a naginata a short pole arm with a long blade? Kind of like the one in the picture when you click on naginata infantry? or is it more like the naginata in Severance Blade of Darkness?
Either of these would surely not be as effective as a spear at keeping people on horses away from you?
The Japanese never embraced the crossbow. I believe CA included it so there would be a musket-like weapon available to the Hojo in the 13th century. Its' widespread use in the Mongol campaign is without historic foundation.
BakaGaijin
12-11-2001, 23:02
Chauncy: Indeed it wouldn't. It would still be far more effective than a sword, though.
I also expect it was much better at lopping off heads than is depicted in the game, but I accept the game version as necessary for unti variety.
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
The naginata was a curved blade on the end of a pole. I believe it was effective at slashing and pulling at a rider on horseback, and possibly penetrating into gaps or seams in the riders armor.
MizuYuuki ~~~
theforce
12-12-2001, 02:00
Well nag are good but l prefer high honor ys.
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html
Most of the units in the game are the way they are for unit balance for the GAME, and not for historical accuracy.
I would prefer it the other way around, but "C'est la vie". Once, you can accept that, just enjoy the game for what it is - a well balanced tactics game loosely based upon fuedal japan.
Cheers,
Jaguara
can you imagine some sumo wrestlers rolling down a hill onto your troops.........
Quote Originally posted by NARF:
can you imagine some sumo wrestlers rolling down a hill onto your troops.........[/QUOTE]
I'm sure I first suggested that in a thread a while back, or am I remembering someone's post before or after one of mine?
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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]
"DISHONORABLE FOR SAMURAI USING BOWS?" I don't think that's true. Samurai are well trained to use both bow and sword. Infact using bows may be considered a separate martial art. Lauching an arrow is a ritual if you look at how they use their bows. They even have archery contests while on horseback (practices up to now). Today, Archery is also taught just like Kendo in High School Physical Education Class.
BakaGaijin
12-12-2001, 09:24
Indeed, the use of the bow is at least as honourable to the samurai as the use of the katana. Perhaps there was a fad to shun bows during one era, but I can't imagine why.
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
Yagyu Jubei
12-13-2001, 02:11
The naginata is like the one you see in the severence game...The reason that they are slow in our game is due to their armor...not at all having anything to do with the actual weapon which is incredibly fast. I have studied the weapon in Japan with some of the top sensei alive....
It was regulated to women during the Tokugawa era because of its killing power..He didn't want anybody to be able to use it anymore... So today you pretty much only see women using it! Believe me they are fast and deadly!
As for Kyudo ( the way of the bow) It is surely a very respected method of combat....many samurai were/are well versed in its art as a form of killing as well as a means to spiritual enlightenment..
If you research it you will find that there are hundreds of types of arrows as well! It is amazing!
No weapon was/is as important as the katana and its method of use.. It is the grandfather of strategy in Japan.
[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 12-12-2001).]
Forgive me I know virtually nothing about Japanese ancient weaponry.
However, I have read somewhere that Katana is considered one of the most deadly hand to hand weapon in human history.
Now where does the Naginata fit in?
I know that in Chinese Song Dynasty (again, a couple of hundred years before Sengoku), Naginata was one of the most widely used among "elite" infantry when they fought against Mongols.
Yagyu Jubei
12-13-2001, 04:39
No need to apologize Gothmog,
The naginata/and its chinese counterparts are indeed very deadly weapons....I have seen many bouts with kendo vs naginata.
Nowadays the swordsmanship of Japan has moved into three main divisions...
1. Kendo....which is almost a sport..comparable with western fencing...you wear armor and such and try to score points against your opponent.
2.Iado...the art of drawing the sword and cutting in one motion...this is practiced alone and with a blade..(beginners never use a sharp one of course) It is a meditative practice that has many further divisions or ryu within it...There are 10 standard kata or forms that are taken from the various ryu to make up the most widely studied version of Iado.
3. Kenjitsu. This is the koryu or old school form of fighting with the sword....Hard to find a real dojo anywhere but Japan.
Today Naginata is mainly practiced by women and is much like kendo...they add one more attack point, the shin. They wear the same sort of protective equipment.
I have seen many bouts between kendo and naginata. Been in a few myself....
I find that the naginata is a much more powerfull weapon as long as you have the space to use it..
One strange thing is speed.... if you think of the weapon as an extension of your arm, the sword makes kendo almost 3 times as fast as hand fighting, ( the sword strike covers 3 times the space in the same amount of time as a punch) the naginata becomes 3 times faster than the sword with this same sort of math.
So if you can keep your opponent at a distance with the naginata, your chances are great! Once the swordsman gets "inside" though it is very likely that you will be cut down.
I have seen for myself a little frail old woman flip men in the air and literally destroy them......These are masters and I wouldn't advise trying it at home! LOL
I am sure that there are as many opinions on the matter as there are practitioners of the various arts or people to have them...
I have a deep respect for the Naginata and don't feel they are acurately represented in shoggy at all..
I still love the game though!
Yagyu Jubei
12-13-2001, 04:49
And another thing! LOL
The yari is also a very strong weapon!
Just as the arrows have many differant points, the yari also branched out into many differant varieties! You will find some with three blades, some primarily used to catch and hold people etc..... Samurai used so many differant weapons! The creativity of the Japanese mind is shown to a great extent in the Samurai weaponry.
As posted earlier in this thread,,, STW is a strategic wargame loosely based on Japanese history.....to truly be either historically acurate or acurate as far as the true nature of Japanese martial art is concerened would just be about impossible.
Well, it's possible to be a lot more accurate than it currently is. You all will hear more of the Real Deal at some point.
I've been refraining from this conversation simply because realism is not the issue with v1.02. They were simply trying to make it as balanced as possible without changing it too much from the original. They tried to be somewhat historical, but there were compromises. One of them is the Nagis. They are probably now the most ahistorical unit in the game. But this is fine, cuz the game works and it's all fun and balanced. Not good enough for me, but good enough for everyone else http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Matt
Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
One of them is the Nagis. They are probably now the most ahistorical unit in the game.[/QUOTE]
They could have just rename Naginata as something more apppropriate, like Japanese Hoplite
The prowess of nagaina weapon has been sufficiently demonstrated on the warrior monk uni.
A concrete brick by any other name would still be as ahistorical http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Matt
Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
A concrete brick by any other name would still be as ahistorical http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Matt[/QUOTE]
I have to admit that Hoplite (the former Naginata) is my least favorite unit.
Before the patch, the slow walking speed makes them virtually un-usable.
After the patch, well, since the cavalry now becomes a real issue, you just HAVE to have YS to stop those horses. Or monks/BN in the wood if you will.
Given all those, the only valid usage of Hoplite is ... arrow absorber. And arrow only, for nothing is bullet-proof.
BSM_Skkzarg
12-13-2001, 08:45
Gothmog old mate - I have to disagree. The fact is, no 16 unit army should be without at least 2 naginata's, if not more. The general should DEFINITELY be one. The reasoning is this - ppl are now tending to balance their armies - yari sams and various cav with a few archers or muskets as background and one or to ND's or WM's for shock. Now - the sams are to counter your cav, the cav is to turn your flanks, the WM's or ND's are to punch a hole in your line and the ranged units are support. With this setup its well balanced. BUT - 1 vs 1 YS lose against Nagi's. So do WM's and ND's of equal honor and equipment. Arrows are nearly useless on Nagi, especially when they have gold armor. Muskets are the "weak spot" for nagi, but their superior defense still means they take less hurt from a volley than any other infantry unit. And face it - if your sitting there taking volley after volley without moving your not going to win any battles anyway since you are more than likely stoned or something... *This is not a flame on anyone - its a comment on the state of mind of those who expect to be shot at without returning the favor and still win...*
So, other than muskets - the only non-countered unit is cav. Now - nagi can beat CA and YC in a head on fight at equal height if honor and equipment is the same. In fact, they can do so quite handily - usually having more than half the unit standing and in good moral when the enemy breaks. Against Naginata Cav and Heavy cav of equal worth they hold the longest of any non YS unit - giving you the max time to bring your other units into play as flankers or chargers into the enemy support units. They hold a LONG time! Now - they are slightly more expensive - but its worth every bit - as they usually equate to 2 enemy units. If you face cav, use height and/or woods and your naginata infantry will still win the day.
Against the "special" units - BN and Kensai, the Nagi tend to suffer average casualties.
While their armor weight does tend to make them slow - and more apt to fatigue - this can be minimized by walking instead of running, and allowing rest when possible.
In multiplayer - when you are limited to 16 units - a core of Naginata balanced with cav and a few support units are more than enough to take the day. When playing lower koku games, they cost less than the 2 units they will take out - giving them a true tank status on the battlefield. All they lack is treads and a 120mm smoothbore cannon....
Qapla!
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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
i think, nags do still the job they made for.
they are slow, not slow like stw, but still slow...
they are and extrem defensiv unit, with good armor, so they get killed very slow...and this is the important point of this unit.
they can hold long time and give u the cahnce to overwight an other side.
i holded in a 2v2, maybe 75% of an other army with just 2 nags and 2 sams for support.
this is exactly the job for them.
koc
Quote Originally posted by NARF:
can you imagine some sumo wrestlers rolling down a hill onto your troops.........[/QUOTE]
Looks like I succeeded in inplanting one of my ideas into the minds of men in such a way that they see it as their own... Now, I can say I have accomplished something. My legacy is now complete. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Oh, was that the post that I also mentioned Gasy-Heavy-Cavalry?
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-16-2001, 05:03
OK.... I will state my reasons for this post.
Naginata:
The most deadly weapon of its time. Could punch through any armour because of its weight and the work to power conversions (Same reason a Nodachi was so powerful [yes, I spelled that right. It's not "No-Dachi"]). In that measure, the game messed up slightly, or severely even. Now before I get into all this, please remember I understand it is a game and an extremely good one at that. Now... The Naginata was used almost exclusively of the Nara Amida monks (Warrior monks). There were thos who used it, but the nagae-yari was most common. In fact, in Sengoku Jidai, the most powerful samurai and the richest ended up being yari cavalry. The naginata, however, was so powerful, that a weapon was designed to bring them down (the obake, or rake). Hook them in the helmet or armour and knock 'em to the ground. There were two distinct disadvantages of naginata, they took much practice, and they could not be used from horseback! Whoever thought up nagi cav was just getting something wierd throught his head.
Crossbow:
Hmmm.... well, time for more history. The crossbow used by the Japanese was introed in the 800s from the Chinese. It was called a oyumi. (Not a ballista. That was from the Romans, and it fired just one large bolt).
The oyumi fired many smaller arrows (NOT BOLTS!) over a large area. It was used as an area assault weapon and suppressive support. They were just too big for one man.
Archers
Yes, I (sort of) screwed up with the dishonorable thing, but only sort of. Archers were the low end of the Ashigaru (next spearmen, then matchlockmen). There are very few accounts of a samurai taking a bow into battle, the most famous being Uesugi Kenshin. However, his Ashigaru attendant carried it for him and he didn't actually use it. So, in a way, it was dishonorable. It could not bring glory to ones name because there was no longer one on one archery duels.
Cheers
------------------
For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly
Tsukahara Bokuden
Yagyu Jubei
12-16-2001, 23:01
Looks like you have definately been doing your homework! I have to agree about the naginata cav! But hey it IS a GAME right!
AS far as the archery goes....yes no honor would be gained in battle...however samurai did indeed practice it..more notably in the Tokugawa era....when martial arts begame just that..ART...and not used as much for life and death conflict.
I would enjoy further contact with you m8.....email me a kurirosan@msn.com
[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 12-16-2001).]
Konnichiwa,
http://www.totalwar.org/maps/images/nag1.gif
Tomoe Gozen, the wife of Minamoto Yoshinaka, battle of Awazu 1184. Both died in that battle.
http://www.totalwar.org/maps/images/nag2.gif
Minamoto Yoshitsune, battle of Yashima 1184.
Source: Samurai Sourcebook, Stephen Turnbull, ISBN 1-85409-523-4.
The handling of the weapon seems like a good grip for cutting/slashing. An action which could also be performed with a yari.
When in battle samurai 'steered' their horse with legs and body, so he had both hands free to wield his weapon.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 12-23-2001).]
Yagyu Jubei
12-17-2001, 21:39
Very nice pics m8!!!!!!
Those are indeed Naginata cav!!!!
You can even see the hooked sort of yari developed to work against them!!!
Where did you get them? Who are the warriors depicted????
I think it is important to note that the era of the game is really pretty short...whereas Japanese warfare spans the entire history of the island!
I Love Japanese history! Please keep this thread alive!
[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 12-17-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 12-17-2001).]
Yagyu Jubei
12-18-2001, 02:07
Here some infromation from the Southern California Naginata Federation.
http://members.aol.com/naginata/history2.html
Yagyu Jubei
12-21-2001, 04:00
Here is some practical information on the use of naginata
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/87jjsa.htm
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-23-2001, 11:47
Soory I couldn't reply sooner. I just can't get on-line during the week. No true time. Anyways...
Those are some very interesting images of the naginata cav, but look at how they are being wielded. Isn't it similar to a spear??? The simple fact is that it is hard to use a nagi and ride a horse. In addition, the work to force ratios are so huge it would be snapped out of your hand like that. (E-mail me for the specifics at aeiler@new.rr.com)
------------------
For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly
Tsukahara Bokuden
Sometimes those "historical" illustrations are so inaccurate that the charactors seem to wield weapons in a really weird fashion. To a point that it defies gravity, physics, human biology, and any common sense.
So I won't be so picky about how the weapon is used by the charctors in the illustrations. The bottom line is, that was naginata, not a spear.
And by the way, I am not even sure that those illustrations are truly INACCURATE. As far as I know, almost all the pole weapons are wielded that way. Not sure why though.
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-24-2001, 04:31
True those are not nagis, but since you still say that, hear me out.
How often do you see prints of cav with nagis. Of all that I have seen (which is quite a few) these are the first. It is enlightening to see that they do exist, but they were not really worth notice.
Unless I am seriously wrong, a Naginata is nothing but a slightly curved blade attached to a staff.
Now pole weapons are extremely common in ancient time. I think they can be roughly catagorized into:
Pole thrusting weapons: such as -- spears, Lances, spear with hooked barbs.
Pole Slicing Weapons: naginata, or any other weapons of the like, and depends on the material that the weapon is made of, such a thing can range from very light to extremely heavy.
Pole Crushing Weapons: 1) long staff mace 2) long staff war hammer 3) long staff itself 4) long staff with "thorns" protruding from it.
Hybrid Pole Weapons: these are mainly "customized" ones, but Halbred is an exception.
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Forgive me if I am totally ignorant on this matter, but in term of weapons, I think all asian ancient weaponry are similar one way or another.
And I have seen NUMERIOUS illustrations about ancient Chinese weaponry, and many of them had Naginata or the like. And those two illustrations, both on the drawing styles, and the contents, VERY CLOSELY resemble those drawings of Tang and Song Dynasty.
[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 12-24-2001).]
Ryuzoji Shingen,
I think the pictures are worth notice because you stated that the naginata could not be used from horseback.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-24-2001, 12:31
Hmm... that's what we're talking about...
My point is this. Yes, the ARE nagi's on horseback. However, it is difficult to use a nagi from a horse because of it's shape. Unlike a spear, a nagi cannot be used to stab. (OK, it can, but the blade would get stuck in the body and that's not cool). In addition, it is very hard to control a weapons like that in a charge because of the physics involved. Gothmog, I very much appreciate your points. This has turned into one of those things where both people are right and their arguing. I hate it when that happens...hehehe.
I wanted this thread to turn into a discussion on all weapons. Input from anyone would be nice.
Thx
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For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly
Tsukahara Bokuden
I think that Naginata were used as a scythe, ie: they passed quickly by you and sliced an arm/leg/head off their opponent and continue on their merry way to do it all over again. They just have to hold it very still while the speed of the horse do the rest. It is even good to maim the legs of other horses, imagine two samurai (plur. of samurai is what?) facing each other on horses. One with a nagi, one with a katana...after one pass it's still the same thing except that one is on foot looking at a 35km/hr screaming samurai brandishing a large cake-knife.
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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes canons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my canons)
-Trad. libre
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-24-2001, 14:00
Good views. Again I would turn to physics, but I won't. One of the best ways a naginata was employed was actually castration, believe it or not. Hook 'em in the nads beneath the armour "skirt" (hehe... forgot what it's called).
Talk about a bad day....
------------------
For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly
Tsukahara Bokuden
Grim, funny way you put it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Indeed taking advantage of the horse momentum is a very commonly used technique for mounted soldiers. (think about the lance duel of those European knights) Basically just as what you said, the only tricky part is to hold the weapon still.
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-24-2001, 22:48
OK... time for physics.
This may sound confusing, but try to bear throught it.
A naginata is between 3 and 7 feet long, but I will use 5ft for this. Now to hold that nagi in the traditional way on horseback, one would have a limited reached an inabilty to stab downwards. Now I will use a low end to show that even when my point is barely used, it don't work. So I will use a spread of 1 foot.
The arm is 5 feet. The hand spread is 1 foot. This is a 5:1 ratio. This means that in any swing, the force will be multipiled by 5. So if I were to put 1 pound of pressure, the blade would produce 5 pounds. Simple. I hope everyone is following. I'm not sure as to how much a soldier would impart into a weapon, but I do know that it is over 100. So we use 100. That's 500lbs! Fatal swings, the kind that knock you over and cut the other guy in half, are even larger. I do believe that the stregnth output of the typical are can top 2000lbs. Need I say anymore.
Now let's apply to this horseback. 500lbs of pressure, but 40kph horse...BAMMMM! That is one broken blade.
I appreciate input. If you noticed in my original post, though, you will see I mentioned many different weapons!
------------------
For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly
Tsukahara Bokuden
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-24-2001, 22:50
that's "typical ARM!" sry
Well the game does model the naginata as more effective when used on foot. The NI will defeat the NC unit. The NI as currently modelled is a very strong unit.
The pictures posted by TosaInu show the weapon being held over the head. You would be able to get a downward angle holding it that way to strike at someone on foot.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Konnichiwa,
Worst case assumptions.
Why would a mounted warrior travel 40 kmp when dealing an active blow? Why should he excert full strength when he knows that his travelling horse does part of the job? Why would he use the full 5 feet arm? The hand spread is surely more than 1 foot. Why should the blade break? Why should the risk of breaking the blade prevent a samurai to kill his enemy?
One 'failing' technique doesn't mean the weapon can't be used.
This is quoted from Secrets of the Samurai, Oscar Ratti/Adele Westbrook, ISBN 0-8048-1684-0, 9th printing 1999, page 229,230: "The Japanese had even developed and perfected the crossbow, some of which used in the old fortresses had bows 12 feet long and a foot in circumference. They also used smaller ones shot from the shoulder (Stone, 195). Specimens of the first type were called o-yumi, and bows of the second type, often found in museum collections, were known as teppo-yumi. In the latter category, the bow was as long as the stock, which was made of bone or whalebone, often lavishly decorated. More difficult to locate are samples of the repeating crossbow (dokyu), which some authors link to chinese models such as the chu-ko-no (Stone, 211).
Stone, George Cameron. A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and use of Arms and Armor. New York: Jack Brussel publisher, 1961.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Quote Originally posted by Ryuzoji Shingen:
OK... time for physics.
[/QUOTE]
Forgive me for not getting into too much detail, but your "physics" anaylysis has many flaws.
For one, "force" doesn't simply get multiplied the way you described. Secondly, I think there is some confusion about force and pressure, mass and weight, speed and momentum, you get the idea.
Happy Holiday.
[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 12-24-2001).]
Quote Originally posted by Ryuzoji Shingen:
OK... time for physics.
[/QUOTE]
u shoulda used SI units plz :0
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-25-2001, 05:59
Sry 'bout units.
As for force and junk, the idea is right. It is merely a fulcrum. You're right I probably screwed the terms.. I do it a lot.
Now as to the reason why one would move at 40 kph (25mph) is it is about base attack speed (charge). It actually closer to 50, but who cares. Why one would swing? Well, let's see, you hit, you break your back trying hold on to it. Every try to hold you hand out of the car at 40 kph straight. Every try swing your hand out of a car at 40kph. See which one is easier.
And now I restate my point: Naginata Cavalry were not preferable because the naginata cannot we wielded in the form it was meant to. In addition, standing on a horse is bad since it is harder to defend yourself and easier to get unbalanced. That is all I have said. I'm trying not to be disrespectful here, but it's getting ludicrous.
------------------
For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly
Tsukahara Bokuden
Totalize1
12-25-2001, 06:32
A couple of interesting illustrations showing naginata use on horseback but what you've got to realise is that the print and screen date from the 17th-19th Centuries and are highly stylised and inaccurate. They were the 'comic books' of the time. Turnbull is notorious for his casual attention to historical sources, especially in regards to the early samurai 'horse and bow' era. Notice he doesn't even state the year, title or artist for those pictures. Only contemporary, or near contemporary, accounts and picture scrolls will give an accurate impression of the samurai.
The Tomoe Gozen print is distinctly 19th Century - around the time of the artist Kuniyoshi. Naginata had become associated with women by that time so the consort (not wife) of Yoshinaka is routinely shown with a naginata - despite the fact that the famous Heike Monogatari chronicle of the 12th Century simply states Tomoe was skilled in bow and sword.
Similarly the 17th Century screen, showing Benkei supporting Yoshitsune, is full of the later legend of the huge warrior-monk carrying a weird assortment of weapons.
The only contemporary references to naginata on horseback are a couple of individual figures in 14th Century picture scrolls (eg the 'Illustrated Scrolls of the Taiheiki'). They are also carrying quivers of arrows which indicates they are horse archers that have swopped weapons with a foot attendant.
'Secrets of the Samurai'? Please don't make me laugh http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif this is one of those daft 'martial arts' things like all those ridiculous 'ninja secrets' books. None of them refer to any hard contemporary evidence. If hand-held crossbows were ever used they would be mentioned in chronicles or illustrated in picture scrolls - like the famous 'Mongol Invasion Scroll'. If there ARE examples in Japanese museums (I've never seen them in plenty of travel and research) then they are toys and curiosities used by nobles. The O-yumi certainly existed - an artillery piece issued 2 per 50-man company in the pre-samurai period. No surviving examples or firm description exists so they may have been similar to ballistae. Their technology came from the Chinese as did the military organisation of the time. No mention is made of them after the 10th Century with the dawn of the samurai.
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-25-2001, 13:29
That's very cool info... we must talk a bit more!
------------------
For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly
Tsukahara Bokuden
posted by totalize: Quote Naginata had become associated with women by that time so the consort (not wife) of Yoshinaka is routinely shown with a naginata [/QUOTE]
So then ...I was right in more ways then one when I refered to naginata as "cake-knife" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
posted by ryuzoji: Quote Why one would swing? Well, let's see, you hit, you break your back trying hold on to it. [/QUOTE]
So I understand that you do not use it as a lance but you see, my hand has a wrist: when the blade hits my target, I do not have to hold it as tight as I can 'cos the force of the impact alone is sufficient for the desired effect. I just let my wrist/elbow/shoulder do what they were designed to do and go with the flow of impact (bend like a reed). I understand that a Naginata on horse might be an oddity but I think it is not an impossibility. Maybe they've put Nagi on horse just for special occasion like parade and such... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Quote I'm trying not to be disrespectful here [/QUOTE] You're not...it is interesting, I only seek answers.
Quote but it's getting ludicrous.[/QUOTE]
Why?...
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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes canons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my canons)
-Trad. libre
[This message has been edited by Grim (edited 12-26-2001).]
Konnichiwa,
"The only contemporary references to naginata on horseback are a couple of individual figures in 14th Century picture scrolls (eg the 'Illustrated Scrolls of the Taiheiki'). They are also carrying quivers of arrows which indicates they are horse archers that have swopped weapons with a foot attendant".
So naginata was used from horseback?
"'Secrets of the Samurai'? Please don't make me laugh [/url] this is one of those daft 'martial arts' things like all those ridiculous 'ninja secrets' books".
Have you read the book?
"If hand-held crossbows were ever used they would be mentioned in chronicles or illustrated in picture scrolls - like the famous 'Mongol Invasion Scroll'".
I didn't say that crossbows were used during the mongol invasion. The o-yumi wasn't used anymore 'at all' in 1180. The mongol invasion started only in 1274.
After 684 till about the 10th century conscript armies (heishi) were used. That was the period the o-yumi was used on the battlefield (also as siege weapon).
There are quite different statements about what this weapon looked like, so it might well be that there are different types. There's a source that speaks about 'arrows falling like rain' and 'even tens of thousands of barbarians' (the original native inhabitants of Japan!) ' cannot bear up to the arrows of one machine'.
While the latter thing is probably quite exaggerted, this indicates a machine like the chinese repeating crossbow (said to be invented by the Chinese in the 1st century). A repeating crossbow seems to me like a weapon that can be operated by 'anyone' after a brief training.
I think that's not very likely, rather quite unlikely, that you'ld find any Japanese using a crossbow during the mongol invasion.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Yagyu Jubei
12-27-2001, 00:19
Wow.....lots has gone on here since my last look!!!
Those pictures are indeed of Naginata....They are being held in a position that is definately used in the art...Unfortunately I don't know anything about its use on horsback, but I have practiced with the weapon under guidance of a true Bushi.
The Tsuki or thrust is also used in naginata, in fact there is a kata that uses the technique. The weapon is mainly a cutting instrument, but it is also used to stab or even the blunt end to hit. The few actual naginata I have held have very long tangs so that the blad will not snap off.
Yes many of the prints are very unrealistic as they were made much later than the incidents they depict.
I will send a message to a friend of mine in kyoto who practices the art and has the opportunity to find out more of the truth for us.
Keep up the discussion! I enjoy it very much as well as the civil way that you are all conducting it!
Konnichiwa,
http://www.totalwar.org/maps/images/Nag3.gif
A section from the painted screen depicting the Winter Campaign of Osaka (26 november 1614).
http://www.totalwar.org/maps/images/Nag4.gif (detail)
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 12-26-2001).]
Ryuzoji Shingen
12-27-2001, 04:42
Why ludicrous.. well I don't know really. I was sick and not in a good mood. Sry.
You said, however, that you would roll back with your wrist. I thought about that, and instantly discounted it though 'cause it would leave one open to an attack. It is possible, but I just don't like it. The best way to do it is swing forward in a slash and bring it back as rapidly as possible. Hope that answers that.
Oyumis were not used really in a shoulder-mounted form. It was actually a large siege device (There aere forms of the small stuff, but it was very uncommon), similar to the Roman ballista, but firing many small bolts instead of the ballista's 1 big arrow. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I am wondering as to proper use of a spear. The nagae-yari and mochi-yari of the time were a bit to big for clost fighting, at least it seems. If anybody knows how they were used properly. (I don't want the stab in, take out. There were moves.)
Thanks a lot, and enjoy the new year!
------------------
For the Samurai to Learn
There is only one thing
One last thing-
To face death unflinchingly
Tsukahara Bokuden
Totalize1
12-27-2001, 07:48
Quote:
"The only contemporary references to naginata on horseback are a couple of individual figures in 14th Century picture scrolls (eg the 'Illustrated Scrolls of the Taiheiki'). They are also carrying quivers of arrows which indicates they are horse archers that have swopped weapons with a foot attendant".
So naginata was used from horseback?
Unquote
Yes, in the 14th Century it would seem so. But the only evidence is for a couple of 'heroic' individual warriors. Not whole units.
"If hand-held crossbows were ever used they would be mentioned in chronicles or illustrated in picture scrolls - like the famous 'Mongol Invasion Scroll'".
Quote:
I didn't say that crossbows were used during the mongol invasion. The o-yumi wasn't used anymore 'at all' in 1180. The mongol invasion started only in 1274.
After 684 till about the 10th century conscript armies (heishi) were used. That was the period the o-yumi was used on the battlefield (also as siege weapon).
There are quite different statements about what this weapon looked like, so it might well be that there are different types. There's a source that speaks about 'arrows falling like rain' and 'even tens of thousands of barbarians' (the original native inhabitants of Japan!) ' cannot bear up to the arrows of one machine'.
While the latter thing is probably quite exaggerted, this indicates a machine like the chinese repeating crossbow (said to be invented by the Chinese in the 1st century). A repeating crossbow seems to me like a weapon that can be operated by 'anyone' after a brief training.
I think that's not very likely, rather quite unlikely, that you'ld find any Japanese using a crossbow during the mongol invasion.
Unquote
Humble apologies. I read what I wrote again and it came across quite unlike how I intended. Of course, you are right about the conjecture surrounding the 'Japanese crossbow' or o-yumi. The 'Mutsu Waki' chronicle is one of those that talks of crossbows that fired 'arrows and stones that flew like rain'. One of the foremost Japanese historians that has researched such things is Sasama. He has produced a number of conjectural sketches of what these artillery pieces may have looked like. Karl Friday's 'Hired Swords' has one on pg 43. Turnbull's article in 'Military Illustrated' magazine (no.125) has two more which are actually bow-propelled catapults firing stones (note the ref to stone-throwers in the 'Mutsu-waki'). The strange thing, of course, is that these weapons died out and no reference appears during the 'private army' samurai period. Karl Friday ('Hired Swords') gives a reason:
'As redoubtable a weapon as the o-yumi seems to have been, it was also a very complex machine to operate. This, in fact, appears to have been its undoing. Between 814 and 910, the court received requests for o-yumi instructors from a full 17 provinces. All had the same complaint: regrettably, the weapons in their armories were going to waste because no-one knew how to use them. In his memeorial of 914, Miyoshi Kiyotsura went further, complaining of the incompetence of even the teachers:
At the time of their appointments, those named do not yet even know of the existence of the weapon called the o-yumi, still less how to use the springs and bowsprings. Although the realm is now at peace and we fear nothing from any direction, we must every day be cautious, never forgetting danger. For, however unlikely, what if there should come some invading neighbors who challenge us with death? The weapon has become empty nostalgia; who can use it (in our defense)?'
Regards,
Totalize
borisus16
12-27-2001, 20:49
From what I know the Naginata is a great weapon,and i would prefer to hold a Naginata then a Katana while fighting a horde of battle raging Samurai(fotunatly I don't have-to). http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
About the use of Naginata from horse-back:
You forget that ALL weapons had many VERSIONS,including the Naginata.
I read that a VERSION of the Naginata was used in China,it was about 2-3 meters long and had a shorter but wider blade,this thing
was very heavy(about 20 kilos),and was used only on horse-back.
In the picture that you see when you want to buy a NC unit(i don't have MI\WE,but i saw this picture on some sites)you can see that the Naginata that those Samurai hold is longer and difrent from the NI version.
hope this helps. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Yagyu Jubei
12-28-2001, 05:32
Here is a good site if you speak french! If not just go to the photo album
http://www.multimania.com/naginata/
[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 12-27-2001).]
the link is in both language. There is a "english page" function at the bottom of the yellow half-page on the left end.
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"Je vous repondrai par la bouche de mes canons"
-Frontenac
(I will answer you with the blast of my canons)
-Trad. libre
Shimazu2
01-04-2002, 03:25
well nags rule... period!
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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...
-Shimazu2
Quote Originally posted by Shimazu2:
well nags rule... period!
[/QUOTE]
A nag replaced his brains.
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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.kenchi.cjb.net/).
I'm from Malta, but I'm not a Malteser. http://terazawa.totalwar.org/malta_md_clr.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)
BSM_Skkzarg
01-04-2002, 07:33
To determine the functionality of a weapon when used from horseback, one must understand the weapon itself, and thus the benefits and dangers of its use in the stated manner. In this case, the Naginata, we are dealing with a far eastern polearm similiar, but not equivilant to, a European hafted blade. For the sake of this discussion, we will refer back to the earlier description, a hafted weapon of up to 7 feet with blade attached, designed for slashing rather than the forward/back action of the stab. The Naginata was designed initially for the foot combatant, giving them superior reach and power compared to a foe armed with a "normal" or "common" blade, such as a Katana. The Nagi itself differs from European polearms in that it has no groove or catch with which to latch onto a passing horseman so as to unseat him. European hafted blades, such as halberds, were designed to allow such an action, in addition to the ability to "set" the weapon like a spear to impale a charging horseman. The European version of the polearm was arguably more versatile due to this.
However, the Nagi armed footman was not helpless against cavalry, as the reach of their weapon gave them excellent chances to slash when facing a charge, and the reach of the weapon meant that with proper timing, the slash could be executed without being hit by the charging foe. It is safe to say that the Spear was a more formidable weapon against horsemen in a massed situation. However, one on one the Nagi gave more flexibility.
Moving onward to the Nagi's conversion to horsback usage, one must consider that this is only natural. One often overlooked axiom of warfare is that the most dangerous foe of a weapon (or platform) is often its exact counterpart. As a modern illustration - I refer to submarines. Now, that being established, consider the horsemen of the age, having seen their comrades cut down with this weapon. They begin to see that its reach allows the footman to stay outside their effective weapons range during a high-speed charge, yet they are inside the circle of the footman's weapon. To counter this, they begin weilding the Nagi themselves. Of course, they must make allowances for its heft and balance, but are compensated by the increase in pure force given to the weapon by its speed, relative to the target. Now, consider yourself the horseman for a moment. Your katana is of little use against these pole infantry, as you cannot get close enough to use it. The naginata has the reach, but its balance dictates a different attack style than you normally use.
We know that nagi was used - although maybe not in a very common manner. So - the question is not if, but HOW. Applying some common sense, one has to say that it is unlikely that the nagi was used in a very "active" way. In other words, it is unlikely that the weilder on horseback was waving it around his head and performing slashing cuts while riding into a line at high speed. During the initial charge, balance would dictate that the nagi be weilded so that the action of the charge itself would create the slashing motion. To accomplish this, the nagi would need to be "set" in a manner similiar to a lance, with the blade positioned so that it could slice a footman at a distance. Now, in a single pass, the weapon would need to be held so that it did not rotate entirely out of the weilders hand, nor unbalance him during the pass. Should the charge be stopped and the rider be forced to fight from a stationary position, the weapon would transition to an arcing slash, wielded likely in an above the head action that would bring the blade downward in a blow to the head or shoulder area, allowing for immediate infliction of a fatal wound - gutted cranium or sliced off extremity. From the height wielded, the Nagi would allow the rider to have a chance of keeping spear and nagi infantry at bay so that he could extricate himself from the "gridlock" that halted the charge. Due to the weight of the nagi - it is feasible that it was used to "chop" thru the hafts of spears or other hafted weapons the rider faced. Disarming your opponent is nearly as effective as killing him - and in some cases is MORE effective, as he is now unarmed, but blocking some of his comrades.
One however must recall that cavalry was not, as pictured in Shogun, a charge and stop to fight type of unit. Its purpose was to ride into and through a unit, not to stop and engage in combat. Shogun cavalry stops and fights, contrary to the intended purpose. A cavalryman would never CHOOSE to stop and fight, as this took away his most valuable advantage - speed.
The nagi could be used in a myriad of ways, but to understand how it is used in various situations, one must place yourself in that spot. Improper use of a weapon would get you killed, and thus your foolish death would only serve to teach your comrades.
Qapla!
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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
Shimazu2
01-04-2002, 08:19
ah your just jealous tera... at least i have something in my gord http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...
-Shimazu2
Katasaki Hirojima
01-04-2002, 09:57
Well, heres a lil more proof that they used Naginata from horseback - In the Movie Princess Mononoke, which was made by the japanese themselfs, there were naginata.
In several scenes you see Samurai on horseback weilding a variation of the PersonallyNaginata, which had a longer shaft and shorter blade then what the monks and NI used. It was almost like a Yari that chould slash and stab. This and there were quite a few cavalry archers too, includeing the hero of the movie himself.
Personally I'd much rather use Bow and sword from horseback. Pelt the spearman with arrows and ride down any man with a lesser weapon.
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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.
Yagyu Jubei
01-05-2002, 03:26
AS to the size of the Naginata....
The main way that they are sized NOW is just about eye level. Meaning that is where the blade would start. I would imagine that it very similar to the way that they used to size them as well.
The bottom hand is held so that the length of the pole comes out to the elbow. This makes for a very secure grip when anchored against the body.
Keep up the discussion fellas!
Shimazu2
01-05-2002, 03:40
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...
-Shimazu2
BSM_Skkzarg
01-06-2002, 11:07
Yagyu - no matter what a women tells u - in this case - size DOES matter... LOL
Seriously though, I agree - they would need to have some decent size, as one attribute was their ability to slice THRU an opponents defense - be it active parry or metal helm/hauberk. Thus size was needed to give weight and force.
Qapla!
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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
BSM_Skkzarg
01-08-2002, 04:16
BUMP!
This is a bump - just because I love Naginata!!!!
ROFL!
Qapla!
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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
Yagyu Jubei
01-11-2002, 04:46
Ok fellas here ya go!!!!
Take this link to the Kendo world Mag... Go to the page called GOODIES...then hit the link called
Isshu Jiai....
this is a battle between Naginata and Kendo in Microsoft Movie format....It was shot at the Kyoto Taikai last year...I was lucky enough to have been there! You will see some good shots made by each contestant. The Naginata is weilded by a woman and the shinai by a man.... Notice the great thrusting shots to the throat by the naginata...but still the kendoka manages to close the distance and get some nice whacks to her head!
Enjoy! http://www.kendo-world.com/index.htm
ps.... let me know what you think...
[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 01-10-2002).]
BSM_Skkzarg
01-11-2002, 05:30
Well... interesting to say the least.
First, a few "uneducated" observations. The speed with which the "nagi" was used - seems to indicate a much lighter weapon than history indicates. In fact, a couple of blocked attempts by the gentleman show that the weapon lacks the "advertised" ability to go THRU a parry. Not only was the gentleman able to parry the blow, but also to knock the nagi out of position and use his weapon to strike. My personal opinion on this is your seeing more of a "single blade spear" than a true Nagi. The "throat thrusts" are another issue - that is the type of manuever that one would use with a spear type weapon, a thrust and recall. A true Nagi was/is a slashing weapon, ill suited for a straight thrust attack due to its weight.
Second, take a close look at each strike or attempt by the lady, you will notice that, on average, her hands consistently slide UPward - toward the "blade", reducing the reach of the weapon. A couple of times you can easily note a solid 18" to 24" portion of the haft unused. This allows her opponent, using the full reach of his weapon, to gain solid strikes on her. Credit her opponent for his skill in using such opportunities. The unused portion may be there for a reason in this lady's case, such as training or as an attempt to possibly reverse the weapon. However, we don't see any such reversal, nor is this weapon, or a Nagi, suitable for such a maneuver. Like any knife, having the blade face you rather than your opponent is a bad idea. Again, personal view is a failure to use good form. The strikes you do see her opponent scored are MOSTLY (but not all) done at his extreme reach - had she used the extra length of her weapon, she could have kept the majority of touches to a minimum.
Now - for the record - it is alot easier to sit here and critique a movie file like this than it is to actually do what I propose as correct.... I would not dare to say I could do better - because to be honest - that ole girl woulda whipped my tail danged quick! But, on observation - it seems that there are some things to be considered - and learned, both by the watcher, and the participant.
Qapla!
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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
Yagyu Jubei
01-11-2002, 05:48
Nice observations m8..... Lets see..
First of all, to be invited to participate in this particular event I believe you must be at least 7th degree black belt in your art. So these two are indeed masters.
AS to the speed of the weapon. We must remember that this is only Japanese Oak with a Bamboo blade. No steel at all. Hence the weight and speed differance.
As to the thrusts...They are a part of the Naginata techniques! Just as a Katana is a slashing weapon, thrusts still do the trick. Same with the Naginata. In fact they are particularly devastating due to the mind set that one is looking for a slash movement vs a thrust.
The Kendoka was indeed doing his best to get "inside" the naginata. This is why she "choked up" on the weapon. In these arts it is nearly impossible to get a point while moving backwards. So the only other way is to "choke up". If you look at the last movie on the page you will see a similar thing happen in the All Japan Kendo Championship match. The victor blocks an attack to the head and follows up with an attack at the midsection. He only uses one hand in this attack which makes the distance correct to score the point.
The way that these weapons, meaning katana and Naginata blades, were/are made is quite differant from western blades. There are differant grades of steel. The cutting section being extremely sharp yet also brittle, and the back of the blade being softer. Because of this "parrying" is very differant than western. In so many movies you see people hacking at each others swords. In Japan these blocks and parries would leave the warrior with a broken blade in seconds. It is much more re-direction than actual blocking.
I wish that she had used more techniques than she did. As there are a lot of things that we don't get to see. I have subscribed to the magazine and it is supposed to have many more movies come with it on disc. I will do my best to let you all see them.
I hope this helps in looking this movie over and seeing more light on the subject of the mighty Naginata!
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