Units?!

[Shimazu2]

Well guys i was just wonderin... (and i hope this isn't off topic.. it shouldn't be) but i was wonderin... What is your favorite units of shogun? well you surely know mine http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif... (the most powerful unit in the game) the NAGINATA!!! (infantry) plz... feel free to put me down or just to post up your fav unit http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"I am what I am"

-Popeye the sailor man

I just posted a poll up on the most hated unit. I still have to vote. And I am going to vote Naginata infantry. Yes Shim.

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[Zone]

Ach, there's no contest, Kensi.

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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]

I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)

P.S. smilies should work in the signature!

[Shimazu2]

grr tera grr http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
oh btw... hope you know what i voted on your poll http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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"I am what I am"

-Popeye the sailor man

[This message has been edited by Shimazu2 (edited 01-08-2002).]

I was wondering to include 'High honour ashi'. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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[Shoko]

Kensai where are they....lol......upppsssss http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

[Shimazu2]

OMG!!! SHOKO YOU ALMOST GOT 1000 !!!!

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"I am what I am"

-Popeye the sailor man

[Dark Phoenix]

I thought I would back you up Tera and voted for Nags.

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"DP is correct" - Shiro

[Rath]

Fave: Nag Cav.

I voted for guns on most hated...toooo powerful still.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Favorite? Hmmm.. difficult choice. I like nag infantry the "best", but a close follow up are Ashi-X, SA and BN. BN are useful, but VERY difficult to use properly. Most hated is a 3 way tie: Kensai, Cav Archers and Thunder Bombers. All are useless against an intelligent opponent.

I can tolerate muskets - hate arq's, dont much like korean units, except for the skirmisher... MLC and MHC are nice, but are too easy to overwhelm due to their astronomical cost.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[BomilkarDate]

No Dachis rule.
They saved my day more than once. They are really strong if you spend some koku on them.

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Strength and honour

Bomilkar Date

[Gothmog]

Favorite: HC.
2nd Favorite: WM

The one I hate the most: CA.

[LordTed]

Nagi Cav- a fast controllable speed

[Shoko]

I luv the NC....in the hands of i true master,these boys really kick ur butt!
HC cav come very close though http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
AH this just give me a idea!
know Shims answer though???

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

[Zone]

What don't you like about CA Gothmog? and are we talking just SP or MP or both in this thread cause it's just not the same. I find CA useful against the comp. but harder to use well in MP and Kensi aren't so good for MP either.

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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]

I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)

P.S. smilies should work in the signature!

ROFL, guys the question is the most HATED not LIKED unit.

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[Gothmog]

Quote Originally posted by Zone:
What don't you like about CA Gothmog? and are we talking just SP or MP or both in this thread cause it's just not the same. I find CA useful against the comp. but harder to use well in MP and Kensi aren't so good for MP either.
[/QUOTE]

Well, campaign.

Probably cuz I suck at using CA and the computer seens to like them so much. Easy to counter with YC and SA, but YC is so weak for any other purposes.

In multiplayer, oh, well.

[Major Robert Dump]

Most hated is a tie between Kensai and Nags....

Kensai: you cant tell what honor the bugger is, so he may very well spook your flank if he is very high honor, or you could waste your time sending troops over to fight an h0 kensai (and actually probably give him a couple of honor before he dies)

Naginata: It seems like even though I see them and plan to run around them I ALWAYS run smack into their center due to superior navigation by my opponent.

[Shimazu2]

he he he... the only reason you don't like nags major is because you always take a ashigaru horde http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif btw... tera... if you read carefully up at the top.. you will find me asking what is your FAVORITE unit of choice... come on man... your falling behind http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"I am what I am"

-Popeye the sailor man

[Cheetah]

Nodachis because of their die hard attitude.

Cheetah

Ack....should I include Kensai in the poll....I will...

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[Cheetah]

and Nag.cav. because they are sooo good against nodachis http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Shimazu2]

lol cheet http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"I am what I am"

-Popeye the sailor man

Stop this naginata crazyness please...
Naginata do kill those Yari Ashis

But stop thinking that they can beat a HC or any other DECENT unit! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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[BSM_Skkzarg]

LOL Tera - Nagi CAN beat more than ashi. They can beat SA, YS, often can beat ND, along with YC, CA and, depending on the honor/upgrade of the HC, they can beat it as well.

Let me run a few tests and I will let ya all know what I find.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Gothmog]

Quote Originally posted by BSM_Skkzarg:
LOL Tera - Nagi CAN beat more than ashi. They can beat SA, YS, often can beat ND, along with YC, CA and, depending on the honor/upgrade of the HC, they can beat it as well.
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, I wonder if ANY decent cavalry user will march their cavalry into head-on collision with your Naginata.

The strength of infantry shock troops and cavarly lies in their speed. So more than often, your naginata is fighting those horse men with their butt instead of the tips of Naginata.


[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 01-10-2002).]

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Gothmog - your right - to a point.

But then again - if I am foolish enough to let you flank my nagi - or anything else - I can't expect the unit to hold.

For the record - I just ran a few quick tests on nagi vs "decent" units.
First - the setup.
Max koku was 5000 (except for series 3) and units were maxed as close as possible to this number - since cost is an issue.
Map was The Ironing Board - as you won't get much flatter than that....
Match was set with me being defensive at all times - since its a test of nagi and nagi are a defensive unit. If your using them for offense your a fool - they tire too quickly.
Difficulty was Normal - all battles were fought on clear days.

---------------------------------------------
First series - Warrior Monks attacking Naginata
Warrior monks at H6/W3/A3 at a cost of 4775
Naginata at H7/W3/A3 at a cost of 4342
Outcome - Naginata won all battles - average men remaining - 21
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Second Series - Nodachi attacking Naginata
No-Dachi maxed at H9/W3/A3 at a cost of 4614
Naginata at H7/W3/A3 at a cost of 4342
Outcome - No-Dachi won all battles - average men remaining - 34
---------------------------------------------
Third series - Nodachi attacking Naginata
No-Dachi maxed at H9/W3/A3 at a cost of 4614
Naginata maxed at H9/W3/A3 at a cost of 6536
Outcome - Naginata won all battles - average men remaining - 40
---------------------------------------------
Fourth Series - Heavy Cavalry attacking Naginata
Heavy Cavalry at H5/W3/A3 at a cost of 4550
Naginata at H7/W3/A3 at a cost of 4342
Outcome - Naginata won all battles - average men remaining - 33
---------------------------------------------

Overall results - Nagi are the best defenders for the cost. To break them, use NoDachi (Suprising to me) - as they are cheaper to upgrade and are effective if sufficiently pumped above the level of Nagi. Cavalry are not very effective.

Again - these are head 2 head encounters on level ground. If you flank a nagi - then yes you can expect success. But - to be fair - you flank ANY unit and u can expect success...

If your in a high koku game with a guarantee of 16 units - then nagi are the way to go if your going to make a stand. They can hold nearly anything - and as for flankers - u did bring other units to the battle didnt you? They should be used to intercept flankers. Nagi can stand the longest under ranged fire of all types - and if used as the backbone of an army - with adequate and appropriate support from other types of units - can make a defensive army superb.

Sorry Tera - Nagi can and do beat "decent" units. As for flankers - as Gothmog states - its YOUR job as commander to see that your units don't get flanked. Don't blame a loss on the men, when the leadership fails.
Qapla!


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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Shoko]

Sorry to butt in but where these tests done in Custom or MP?


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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

[Gothmog]

Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
Sorry to butt in but where these tests done in Custom or MP?

[/QUOTE]

Hehe, read the fine prints, Shoko. He said normal difficulty.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

LOL - good catch there Gothmog.

Each battle was custom - with only the 2 units noted. As I said - I stood defensive - so waited until the opposing unit had closed and faced me before combat began. Some they charged in head on, some they stopped and glared and made me advance a step or 2 before they charged.

But all started combat facing each other dead on. Also - I tried multiple times with the nagi using both Hold Position/Formation orders, and with engage at will. On some it made a slight difference, but never more than 3 men in any conflict. That amount of error - given the results - can be figured as a range.

Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

Oh BSM - you should have been THERE in our tests with Nagis on MP. And we made every possible combination.

HC wins Nagis.
NC wins Nagis.
NODS give Nagis a tough battle and the NAG never had more than 20 men left.
MONKS wins nagis.

And don't say if you increase honour etc etc. We tested at hon2 flat.

Tera



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[BSM_Skkzarg]

Tera - your talking online play - which is WHY I included the cost of the unit. Yes - a straight h2/w0/a0 WM will beat a h2/w0/a0 Nagi - but the WM costs a good bit more. If your going to discuss a units ability in online play - cost HAS to be considered. Once you start that - if you want to say you can't upgrade - fine. But then face the fact that while u buy 6 WM's, I am gonna have 6 nagis to hold you and a flanker or 2 of Nodachi or similiar heavy hitter - meaning I will be able to break you WM's, or cavalry. What I stated was that Nagi's are the best buy defensively, and its what I have said the for the longest time - they will HOLD long enough to allow you to get flankers engaged - meaning you should be the one that wins, provided you don't allow yourself to get flanked. No other single unit has the HOLDING ability of nagi - as they can face and hold 2 h2h units for a while if properly placed and ordered.

For example - on a 5000 Koku game (with no ranged units) - with no upgrades allowed - as you stated - lets say you purchase 5 WM's and 3 HC's, a ND and a ashi spear - leaving you 50 koku - and a total of 10 units.

Now in that same 5000, I can take 8 Nagi's to hold your Warrior Monks and Heavy Cav, plus with the leftover koku I can take 3 Nodachi - easily overwhelming your single one. I still have funds left - enough in fact for 3 Yari Sams and a Yari Ashi - meaning in the end - I have 15 units, more than enough to get the required flanking on your men while my Nagi's HOLD... Care to try this setup with me? Think you can overcome a playing field where no upgrades are available and I have a superior numbers? Granted - HC and WM's are great units, and in the situation you seek - single 1v1 head to head without upgrades then yes they would win - but that is not the purpose of nagi. Either upgrade them - or as you wish to say no upgrades - use their holding ability and cheaper cost to gain the flanking ability needed so desperately.

You cannot discuss the usage of a unit without taking into account its cost. Nagi's cheap cost and their defensive nature make them valuable - with or without upgrades. Without upgrades - they allow their commander to have additional units available for flanking and other maneuvers. With upgrades - as I proved with my tests - they are able to overcome MOST units of equal and sometimes greater cost. Either way you look at it - their usage on the field enables them to win - because proper usage means that with or without upgrades - a monk or HC army facing a backbone of nagi with proper support from other units - at equal koku levels - will result in the nagi and friends holding the field while a few scattered HC run for their lives, leaving all the WM's bleeding into the ground.

You show me someone who will agree to a single unit head to head without upgrades as a game (like 500 koku) - not intended for testing. That would not be a fun game. If you want to disallow upgrades - fine - but dont think that will make your stock WM/HC heavy army unbeatable - unless you make the koku high enough to take 16 stock units of these guys. If ya do that - again - whats the fun - it ceases to be about unit decision - ppl would get 8 WM's, 5 HC's and 3 YS every time. (Again, ignoring ranged weaponry.) This goes back toward the WM juggernaught of the original S:TW, or the deplorable ashi/gun combo of WE/MI pre-patch infamy. No one wants that.

To everyone who was involved in the patch - the fact is that cost vs power vs usage is very well balanced - as proved by this discussion, and I personally thank every one of you, and Creative Assembly as well, for the effort you all put forth to make 1.02 a reality.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Krasturak]

Hmmmmmmmmm....

Shim already knows what Krast's favourite unit is.

But for those who don't, Krast will tell them.

It's guns!

Guns are awesome. There's nothing like going into a game with ten, eleven, even twelve guns!

Oh BSM - you think only one way. Do you think I would let you flank me with your nods? No. Do you think I would waste all my units on naginata? No.

That tactic doesnt work with a sane good player. There are a lot of counter-attacks for that tactic.



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[Shoko]

Is this War ever goin too End http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

[Kocmoc]

i like the nags too
they have just 1 big prob.............

Thhey kill to slow!!!!!

the prob with this tests is always the same, u just put 2 units against each other, but try to flank or to double with nags http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

hehe, they kill to slow, they are designed to hold with less man much more mens for a longer time, but its just a defensiv unit.

in offensiv fight they arent so good, walk speed is same like other infantry, just ashis are faster (10) but in running speed
...they lose too....

and plz dont forget, the charge bonusses of other units....

my favorit unit .....ooooooops.......hmmmmmmm.......jeezus.......

i havnt a favorit unit....ha...

its the mix...the setup...the balance...

if u ask me about my favorit setup i could tell u some.....but units....there cant be a favorit, they are all special units, except the spears...

koc

In my cav-dominant army there's surely no place for the terribly slow naginata. That's one thing.

And on flat maps, the most played, at least imo as they got no chance vs cavs and shock troops higher skilled than the nod.

You can't take nagis alone vs a unit alone...you have to evaluate nagis in the context of an whole army and at least in all the thousands of games I played, they didn't show the great perfection BSM wants to show.

Tera

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[BSM_Skkzarg]

Tera - thank you - you made my point. They cannot be used 1v1, or without other types of units to assist them. However, as a CORE to a defensive army they excel. As Kocmoc states - offensively - these guys suck. I will be the first to admit that. But used properly, with adequate support from other, more offensive units, they are VERY effective. Just as any other unit, they must have appropriate backup. No one would take all WM's, nor would one take all HC. To do so would cause an imbalance and a weakness in the army. Thus, no one should (if they have any sense) take an all Nagi army. I don't suggest anyone should. Nor should one even take nagi at all if they are attacking, except maybe a single one as general (my preference). If you take all warrior monks, I can take all HC and beat you. If you take all HC, I can take all YS and win. If I take all Nagi, I am an idiot and will deserve the stomping I get. I never said they were the end-all/be-all of units. I said that, when used properly - in the appropriate situation - they are the best unit for the job. Given my propensity to choose to be defensive rather that the attacker, nagi suit my style of play. In addition, when one considers their effectiveness at their given role in conjuction with their cost - it becomes irrefutable that they are the best unit - at what they do.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

Oh BSM - why you're making me feel so much hurt. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Nagis hold. They're good for that. With a defense bonus of 8, I'll die if they don't.
But their melee is -2. When fighting remember that you have to add those -2 to the overall quality of your lovely Nagis.
Now that means, in attack, they'll suck. And on flat maps, where a missile is always balanced (attacker can make defender attack here...), Nagis are surely not worth the cost. And flat maps are the most used. And I am talking solely of MP here - because that's the only place where evaluation of units really counts.

And thats the main reason why I just don't like them. As for your cost/quality ratio identifying the utopial "best" unit, you're wrong...the "best" unit should be a balanced unit between attack and defense, good vs everything overall. The Nagis can be used only for defense and r very difficult to use...therefore they're immediately cut off from the contest.

But if your playing style is defensive, then get the Nagis...but on a flat map with a defiance of missile power you will definetely lose. And that is what you all risk when playing a normal flat map battle on the foyer when having the O' might Nag.

Not to count they're the slowest unit in the game...*cough*

Tera

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[Tankdogg123]

ashi and heavy cav it works

[Shimazu2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BSM_Skkzarg:
[B]LOL Tera - Nagi CAN beat more than ashi. They can beat SA, YS, often can beat ND, along with YC, CA and, depending on the honor/upgrade of the HC, they can beat it as well.

Well guys in battle i would never thin twice about sending my naginata into melee versus an even higher honoured nodachi... but what do i know http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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"I am what I am"

-Popeye the sailor man

Charging normally with Nagis is already a suicide http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

DOWN WITH THE NAG! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

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I'm from Malta, but I'm not a Malteser. http://terazawa.totalwar.org/malta_md_clr.gif
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[Shimazu2]

It seams from your poll TERAZAWA... that the naginata are the SECOND favorite unit of them all http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif DOWN WITH TERAS LITTLE CAV! :P

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"I am what I am"

-Popeye the sailor man