View Full Version : Creative Assembly R.I.P. - Swiping
Hi All,
Just like to express my delight at the death of the above-mentioned.
Lately, I have encountered alot of swipe/rush armies, I will take great delight in battling these individauls post patch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
I wouldn't have minded it so much if they had told me before the game, "hey, get ready to be rushed by my 9 cav, single lined, swipe army"
Kans gonna get ya'
Well done CA and thanks for listening, gestures/actions like this go a long way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Kans.
Yes a sad day really..
Now I cant select all, drag line behind enemy line and hit ctrl r
Guess my days as an elite unskilled swiper are gone. I have to find another game now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
CBR
Hi CBR,
LOL, trust you hey, hehe.
Even if you did swipe, you couldn't have been as bad as some games I've had with certain parties.
What I hated even more was the accidental (or was it) swipe, at the end of the game, bang, there goes my Gen.
Kans.
You could still go back to V1.1, swiping is still working there I think.
But be prepared that your cash-starve meager 5k army shall meet resistence from those 99999 badluck armies.
Annie
ElmarkOFear
10-10-2003, 17:02
..
Elmo dont like 5k games but you dont have to go everywhere and be witty about it.. too often a friendly joke can also annoys...
spacecadet
10-10-2003, 19:27
Actually, I wouldnt count out 5k games until you've all tried out the patch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
ElmarkOFear
10-10-2003, 19:38
..
hi Guys,
Well me and Space had a nice 2v2 10k a piece and actually it felt very good, now that the swipe element is gone, the cav didn't dominate the battle as they would have previously, especially in later stages of battle when there would be a swipe fest.
In conclusion, a 5k battle may be alot better now, dunno yet, haven't tried it.
Kans.
ElmarkOFear
10-11-2003, 02:00
..
Chances are that if you didn't care for 5k before you still won't, but there is the possibility that something above 5k but less than 15k plays better than it did in VI v2.0. I played an 8k 1v1 with DamnedThingofFear in VI 2.01 and took my 5k army with all my units set to v1 instead of v0, and it didn't work as well as it does in 5k. So, some adjustments are in order in terms of unit selection and to take better advantage of the possible upgrades rather than an across the board +1 valor.
That's a good point LadyAnn. Certainly, there is no way to top the thrill of defeating AMP's Spanish lancer swiping 12 cav army, Elmo's all missle pumped handgunner 3 ring Elmohead circus, AngelofBlood's purple barney windmill, Demon's gothic knight German juggernaught and personally capture all 4 enemy generals as you did in an mtw v1.1 battle back on Dec 6th using the Turks, and all made possible by unbalance And, it was a 12k florin game on top of that.
10k games to me seem to be taking the place on my games lists. Had a few larger battles tonight with some clanmates, and it seems that things are a lot more even and balanced. Spears are even making an emergance in the 10k games, and the game is not so reliant on the 5k morlae armies that you can only chose high morale troops to win.
Obviously there is still more testing that needs to go on, but 10k feels very comfortable
Kongamato
10-11-2003, 09:10
I think that the games played in this new patch will be from 7-11k. I dont think that a standard florin level is going to evolve during the duration of this patch.
I played a 7k 4v4 game today, and for the most part, it went well. What should have routed did rout, except for at the end, when the small remnants of my army routed a few archers into the bulk of the larger enemy force. Fatigue, casualties, and routing friends created a ridiculous chainrout that really should not have happened. I was outnumbered and outflanked, and routed a massive chunk of a surviving army. Even some knights ran. I believe that it was due to v0 Chiv Sarges, which seemed like the standard spear being used. They were probably the last thing to get upgraded, being a low-potential unit and all. 7k is a bit low in my opinion, but we may have been using the wrong units.
Now at 8k, I was able to afford v1 spears and upgrades to cavalry, which I think gave me a pretty balanced army for that level. The fact that I was able to afford valor upgrades for the infantry I wanted makes me a little surer that there wont be any ridiculous chainrouts. There is no real affordable sword that can defeat some v0w1 Chiv Knights at 8k, so I dont think swords will dominate if given the additional money when going from 7k to 8k. In fact, spears can hold out a long time and even beat swords in a one-on-one. However, a price is paid tactically.
At any of these low florin levels, cavalry vs. swords is quick and decisive. This does not bother me. We are using medieval european armies, the strength of which is the mounted knight. The traditional Catholic style is to create an opening for elite heavy cavalry to destroy the enemy with by eliminating protection against cavalry. I think that swords need to be protected with a spearwall until they can be used to destroy the enemy's anticav. That's the Catholic style, and the way Catholics fought against each other. If you dont prefer the Catholic style and heavy knights, then hopefully the Muslims, Byz, or Russians will work for you. I think the real test of balance will be if non-Catholic styles will become viable options. If there are other options of playing besides the application of heavy knights, there would not be as much complaining about balance.
It seems to me that the focal point of these discussions is cavalry, and most often it is about the Catholic knights. I see them as the strength of the Catholics, and most certainly they will be the strongest cavalry in the game. I also think that since the Catholics are played so often, people tend to want to convert the Catholic units into a perfect RPS system, which would be ahistorical. There are multiple cultures here, all of which have certain strengths and weaknesses. It's my opinion that this game is about multiple cultures from a wide geographic area clashing; it's not like it takes place on an island or something...
Quote[/b] (ElmarkOFear @ Oct. 10 2003,13:38)]If he was truly offended he would let me know and so would others.
Well, I have only just seen this.
When I saw your post I felt rather offended.
I got the feeling "oh, so nobody who can play the game plays at 5k?". But when I looked back at who I had been playing with I could only say to myself that it was a highly arrogant comment on your part.
Perhaps I simply didn't get the joke (well obviously), but that is rather hard with the tough justice you have been handing out at 5k in the past.
Now that I know it was a joke I don't feel much offended, so don't worry, I won't hunt you down with a shotgun. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
But the next time direct your comment more at CBR than the general audience of 5k'ers, we don't all know you or your relationship with CBR. Remember, even the most gentle joke can become very offending to people who don't know your humor.
Dionysus9
10-14-2003, 00:32
Well, 5k was ok before the patch but now it is good, imho. 10 feels perfect to me, but ive had 8k games which were excellent. The Jury is still out though.
As for what constitutes an "offensive or rude" post-- I'm never sure what is "ok" around here because there seem to be some double-standards and also some sensitive people.
Lately I try to walk on eggshells when I'm here so I dont accidently say something rude or offensive. I'm being serious so please dont take this as rude or offensive.
If I say "people who rely on rushing and swiping in 99,999 games dont really understand the game", is that going to be considered rude and offensive? What if I say people who use "V4 peasants dont really understand unit selection or morale"? Who is going to take offense at that? I bet someone would.
So instead I have to be a skilfull wordsmith so I can get my point across--state my opinion--without making any enemies. It gets exhausting after awhile.
at some point I think we should all step back and realize that opinions might differ-and that its okay to disagree. If someone says something you dont agree with-- then its ok to disagree-- but reacting with "im offended" or "that is rude" seems like a pointless personal attack to me.
Fight fire with fire? Well, maybe, but then you have no right to complain about the heat.
I don't think the jury is still out because 15k is being hosted more than any other florin level. I would estimate that more than 80% of the games over the last 3 days are 15k/player. I don't expect this to change from the comments I've seen in the foyer, and the vets I've seen hosting and playing 15k.
Dionysus9
10-14-2003, 08:25
I played a few 8k games today and they were great. Very intense and sharp play at 8k. I'll give your 5k a shot too.
Togakure
10-14-2003, 09:41
Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Oct. 13 2003,10:32)]If I say "people who rely on rushing and swiping in 99,999 games dont really understand the game", is that going to be considered rude and offensive? What if I say people who use "V4 peasants dont really understand unit selection or morale"? Who is going to take offense at that? I bet someone would.
So instead I have to be a skilfull wordsmith so I can get my point across--state my opinion--without making any enemies. It gets exhausting after awhile.
at some point I think we should all step back and realize that opinions might differ-and that its okay to disagree. If someone says something you dont agree with-- then its ok to disagree-- but reacting with "im offended" or "that is rude" seems like a pointless personal attack to me.
Yes Dionysus9 it does take thought and effort to write in a manner that focuses criticsm on the issue without criticizing people personally. Books have been written on the subject ("How to Say it," Et. Al.).
In your first example, you say "People ... don't understand the game." This is critical of people and could cause someone to be offended. Why not say: "Those who understand the game at 99,999 have no need to rely on rushing or swiping," or better yet, "IMO, there is no need to rely on rushing or swiping in 99,999 games." The first is only implicatively critical of people who rush and swipe, and the second makes the point without involving people at all.
In your second example, obviously, "VI peasants" is derogatory in nature. "Don't understand" implies you do and they don't. I would say: "It seems to me that many new players misunderstand unit selection and morale."
You say that reacting with "I'm offended" or "that is rude" seems like a pointless personal attack. Surely you can see how your statements above could be viewed as personally condescending to some?
I am not criticizing you m8, just trying to make a point that I think a majority of folks here would do well to heed. Yes, it takes work and concentration when constructing a post to criticize issues in a manner that does not criticize or degrade people. But like anything, do it enough and it becomes easier and easier, and IMHO, it is a skill worth having.
It is much easier to change one's approach to written criticism than it is to try and change the way people react to being personally criticized, degraded, or attacked.
Howl Guys,
Lets get back on track, and leave the sensitive guys to it, elsewhere http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Well I personally decalre the patch a success, based on the non-swiping cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Finally got to play a excellent ex-swiper yesterday, and if I ever did win before it was with alot of effort. Anyway, had 3 games with this chap last night, and even faced a 8 h2h and 8 cav army and won all 3 games http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif (2 games 2:1 ratio) .
The cav weren't as effective as they were pre-patch and it gave me great delight when my militia seargents saw of 2 cav units and moved swiftly to the next closest units, it was like cav running into yari sams, rofl.
In conclusion the cav rush can now be dealt with, in other words a skillfull player is more likely to win now.
BTW in my opinion the English will have the best rush effect eg headed by 3 longbows, Kans gonna get ya' next
Kans. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] (Kansuke @ Oct. 14 2003,12:26)]...and it gave me great delight when my militia seargents saw of 2 cav units and moved swiftly to the next closest units...
Its just that the militia sgt has an axe and that really is just an armour piercing sword (so yes a little better against heavily armoured cavalry) but still a sword that is supposed to be the weakest unittype against cavalry.
CBR
Mil Sgt is not an anti-cav unit. If 8 swords + 8 cav is not the army of choice at 15k anymore, what is? I'll make a wild guess of 12 swords + 4 cav.
Hi,
Well, I had balanced armies in the 3 games that I played.
IMO it would be easier to stop a 12 swords and 4 cav army then vice-versa pre-patch.
The importance of missiles should not be discounted especially against slow moving troops, but care must be taken to shield them when melee starts and sometimes I use them as bait. I find it amusing when I see a v3/4 cmaa chasing down my 300 florin pavs. As I always take at least 2 cav archers I would love to fight a 12 sword army.
I would use the following:
4 x ck
3 x pavs
2 x ca
4 x cmaa
2 x ms
1 x fmaa
Bear in mind my individual h2h units will be stronger. BTW its 0 florin left army.
Kans. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Orda Khan
10-14-2003, 17:47
So the Militia Sergeant is still king?
Hmmm not good. I mean it's not even an elite unit
.......Orda
Yep
At v4 its the Ashi of MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Kans
Skomatth
10-14-2003, 18:36
You've gotta under 10k to have strong rps, at 10k it's sorta there but depending on amry selection swords can beat cav.
Kansuke,
Why play at a level where something similar to the unbalanced ashi in we/mi v102 exists? I thought is was standard practice to ban ashi in we/mi v102. The swipe and the ashi are bad because they break the RPS, and 15k also breaks it. It's quite possible that the RPS in mtw/vi is broken at all florin levels. It might be less broken at some levels than at others. Also, it seems to me that players who depended on swipe will have to make substantial adjustments to their style of play in mtw/vi v2.01.
ElmarkOFear
10-14-2003, 23:49
..
Skomatth
10-15-2003, 00:09
I noticed a reverse swipe bug in a game today, tho I'd like others to test it out b4 I'm sure its actually a bug. I had 23 chiv knights fighting 1 chiv knight, I assumed the fight was basically over so I clicked my 23 knights behind enemy lines to get them in flanking position. Then they routed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Another thiing I noticed: I charged a chiv knight that didnt get a good running start with mine and on the charge I killed 9 and lost zero, but during the course of the battle, my knight is suddenly losing and towards the end it was 16 men to 16 men. I woulda lost but I backed it up with swisses.
Did you read the log file to figure out the opponent cav has secret weapon upgrade?
Annie
Skomatth
10-15-2003, 01:02
yes, there were no upgrades
Hi Guys,
Yuuki,
Yep I tend to agree with you on your point, its just getting more peeps to play 5-12k games now.
However, I have noticed more and more 10k games being hosted, more than likely, definately, I will follow suit.
Also, game style's post patch will definately will/ have to change, the difference in games is quite marked, but definately for the better.
Players that I felt that I should have beaten with alot of ease previously, are now seeing the difference, a winning tactic being employed as opposed to a bug being used on me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Kans.
Sko,
Some things to consider about that situation of 23 men fighting 1 man are that only 2 men can engage the single man within a combat cycle, fatigue will reduce the probability of killing, the single man doesn't get the outnumbered morale penalty because he is not outnumbered in quantity and quality, fatigue will reduce morale and, as soon as you turned your unit away from the fight, it got a flanked morale penalty.
Dropping to even odds after getting 9 charge kills can happen due to statistical uncertainty. As a rule, you'll win most of those situations, but not all. This isn't the same situation, but one thing I've noticed is that even a 2 point (44%) combat advantage with 60 man units will only get you 8 or 9 victories out of 10. In general, I would say that smaller units are subject to greater uncertainty in the outcome because there are fewer combat cycles needed to resolve the fight. Statistical error gets smaller as more events accumulate, and the amount of uncertainty we typically observe in the game in different situations just falls out of this phenonmenon. I don't think it's a designed parameter. There is also that fatigue disadvantage which can reduce combat ability if you have been moving around more or moving faster than the enemy.
Elmark,
I don't know what to make of that "winning" designation. It's not clear how it's determined, but I think it does affect the morale of the units. You get a morale boost when winning and a morale penalty when loosing. Cav seems to get the winning designation vs inf most of the time unless the inf has a large combat advantage, although it does jump around during the fighting. I don't think it's my imagination that I've observed many times cav designated as winning while it got chopped to bits by some inf unit.
Kansuke,
The first thing I noticed about the post swipe v2.01 h2h cav is that teh technique for using it is now closer to how it was used in we/mi.
elmo, try put those pikes on hold position, i find thats much better with spear units vs cav.
as far as balance is concernd i think that turk owns all, but thats because since the patch most people take less cav and more slow inf, leaving a turk missle army to tear up the field
Quote[/b] ]The first thing I noticed about the post swipe v2.01 h2h cav is that teh technique for using it is now closer to how it was used in we/mi.
Absolutely agree.
I made a post elsewhere stating that if the cav engages head to head (with inf) there is more of a chance it will come of worse, if fact I saw this happen in a game last night, where my oppenant sent his cav gen to centre in melee, wheras I sent my cav to flanks, his cav routed, allowing me to encircle him with my flanking cav. I feel the best way to use them now would either be an attack on a flank or a rear attack as was/is the case in we/mi.
Alrowan.
I never use Turks, but I can still handle them with either a 4 or 5 cav army. Pre-patch I used cav as flankers on Turks and even more so now, to the same effect.
The thing to remember (or what I do) when fighting the Turks is to move quickly, not necessarily a rush, but a rapid flank move and avoiding to come face to face with all those missiles. Also you can push your pavs right to the front, forcing the Turks to attack, or use cheap cav archers on them, harrass them and waste their ammo, they all work.
However I do believe that they are a very deadly faction in the right hands (eg Kanuni, he still kills me) and remember my training is done with Kanuni so I think I have a fair idea how I would handle Turks. I used to panic like hell before facing Turks, but since Kanuni has educated me on them I don't mind them.
Haven't played your Turks yet Al, but look forward to it in the future m8.
Kans.
Quote Kansuke:
"I feel the best way to use them now would either be an attack on a flank or a rear attack as was/is the case in we/mi."
Not quite what I meant. we/mi had two cav types, naginata cav and heavy cav, that were designed as assault cav to go head-to-head with sword inf and win. I've been playing lower florin games than 15k, and that's where my comment is coming from, not 15k where even the cav knights are relegated to flanking only. Of course, in we/mi v102 you can't make effective head on charges into muskets with those cav, but that's a mistake of the final v102 stat. The intention was to be able to successfully charge muskets with naginata cav or heavy cav, and that was corrected in the we/mi v103. What I meant was that you actually have to target a unit now to get the most out of the cav, and maintaining maneuverability with compact cav formations can be important as it is in we/mi which is not to say that there is no place for wider formations for the purpose of wrapping around an enemy unit because there is in both games.
ElmarkOFear
10-15-2003, 20:41
..
Kongamato
10-15-2003, 21:19
Hey there Elmo, I think I'll try to make a Swiss all-infantry army work too. I was using 8-cav armies last night, and I got very balanced kill numbers out of both the infantry and cavalry. I'd like to see what a strong infantry army can do. So far, 10k seems great, the only problem will be convincing people to host games under 15k. There are some people out there who think that you can solve any problem just by spending a bunch of money on it.
I encountered those arqs/handguns, and while I did not see them at full strength or engage them with anything useful, I really dont mind them. It looks like they actually will have a use in the Late era.
As far as the Swiss pikes and Chiv Knights go, I'm not very confident in any spear unit to be capable of decisively defeating a mounted knight alone when all it can do is stand there and push its pike at a horseman covered in armor. I think you need a system of units working together to defeat a force of anything in this game. That's why I'm going to throw some Swiss Halberdiers into the mix and see what a combo of Swiss Pikes, Armored Pikes, and Halberdiers can do against the mounted menace.
What were the circumstances of the conflict between the SAP and the knights? I ran some custom battle tests with v0w1 Chiv Knights vs. unupgraded SAP, and the cav could only get kills if it did the wraparound move to some extent. When I used the knights at 4 rows deep, they did not get one kill vs. SAP. Perhaps the angle of attack was odd in this engagement, or, as you were saying earlier, fatigue came into play.
Ahhh... the Swiss and all infantry. Well that works, even at 5k.
Dionysus9
10-15-2003, 22:56
Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Oct. 13 2003,18:32)]. . .
If I say "people who rely on rushing and swiping in 99,999 games dont really understand the game", is that going to be considered rude and offensive? What if I say people who use "V4 peasants dont really understand unit selection or morale"? Who is going to take offense at that? I bet someone would.
. . .
at some point I think we should all step back and realize that opinions might differ-and that its okay to disagree. If someone says something you dont agree with-- then its ok to disagree-- but reacting with "im offended" or "that is rude" seems like a pointless personal attack to me.
Fight fire with fire? Well, maybe, but then you have no right to complain about the heat.
Well thank god swiping is dead, it was a pain to deal with.
Toga,
I did not say "VI Peasants" I said V4 as in Valor 4.
I see your point--but I do not always have time to edit and revise my posts to avoid offending a few sensitive people. Some people will never have the editorial skill to tailor their posts as you have suggested. Why cant we just speak our mind?
Adding qualifiers like "IMO and IMHO" does nothing for me-- What I state is obviously my opinion, so re-stating that fact is redundant. If it really makes people feel better I may have to start using it for every post. IMHO...
I think people who play at 99,999 reallly DONT understand the game. Why should I pull punches? Why shouldn't I just say what I mean, what I believe...IMHO
My last point about "pointless personal attacks" was poorly drafted. What I meant to say was-- if you are offended by my opinions, thats okay-- but to "say I am rude for simply stating an opinion" is itself offensive and could be seen as a personal attack on me.
My conclusion: Take the comments of others with a grain of salt. Dont rise to baiting. Dont sling mud back. Just ignore what offends you and move on.
Sorry to hijack the thread.
longjohn2
10-15-2003, 22:58
The game often reports cavalry as winning against spear units, when viewed over the longer term they're not. The reason being that push backs as well as kills are used in assessing who's winning, and in situations where the kill rate is low, they dominate. Since it's much easier for horses to push back men than vice versa, the cavalry get more push backs, and are shown as winning even though they're not doing any killing.
This doesn't matter that much though, as the determination of whether a unit is winning or losing a melee that's used for morale is different to the one shown to the player. The morale version takes into account the number of cassualties being inflicted in comparison to the size of the unit, whereas the version shown to the player just looks at absolute numbers, and leaves it for players to decide if the contact area is big enough to have any effect.
BTW, I don't know where the idea that only two men can fight a given opponent came from. It isn't true, as many as can fit can have a hack. The idea that only two men can fight might have arisen from discussions about 100 man spear units fighting lone kings. In that case it's likely that only two spearmen will choose to fight if the unit is on hold formation.
longjohn2
10-15-2003, 23:02
I'll also point out that historically knights did charge into pike formations, and while they generally didn't win, it was by no means instant suicide. I hope the combo of pikes and halbards works well, as that's what the Medieval Swiss themselves used.
I know most of you don't care about history though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-15-2003, 23:14
Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ Oct. 15 2003,17:58)]This doesn't matter that much though, as the determination of whether a unit is winning or losing a melee that's used for morale is different to the one shown to the player
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...........
Shall we care about it at all? Can't we get written on the screen the 'morale' one?
Louis,
Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ Oct. 15 2003,23:58)]This doesn't matter that much though, as the determination of whether a unit is winning or losing a melee that's used for morale is different to the one shown to the player.
Hm
We have this in the list of morale modifiers:
Losing: Up to -8 (up to -14 if losing to cavalry)
and
Winning: Up to +6
I have always thought that was related to what we see in a battle: Losing bady, winning etc. The casualty rate was the "hidden" modifier that we still dont know the effect of yet AFAIK and that is just added to the winning/losing(and all other) modifier.
But losing badly doesnt have to mean heavy losses of course.
BTW I would love to know some numbers behind the casualty rate morale effect.
CBR
Thanks for the clarification on the winning/loosing message LongJohn. I never could get the morale fluctuations to correlate to that message when observing them.
The idea that a man can be attacked only twice within a combat cycle came from an old post by a dev which I can't find now. The Strategy Guide does say a man may have to parry "several" strikes within a combat cycle, and I have observed what could be men being struck more than twice. I was never really sure about that. Thanks for correcting that notion as well.
shingenmitch2
10-16-2003, 13:58
Thought I'd hop on as I've had little time over the past few weeks...
Question: Are heavy-foot/rush armies dominating at 5-10k?
Are there any missle units worth the money/capable of holding off a rush army?
With the reduction of cav from the first version, the reduction of swipe in VI:TW and now its elimination, have cav be reduced to strictly a flanking role? Can they soundly beat any infantry from the front?
If missles are still viable to stop the rush, are cav capable of eliminating them before footies run up and hack the cav?
--------------
"I know most of you don't care about history though" I hope tongue was firmly planted in cheek there LongJohn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
But yes --- for multiplayer only --- I prefer a balanced game over a purely realistic game. This reflects the difference between competition between equals ala chess as opposed to trying to conquer a map http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ Oct. 16 2003,00:02)]I'll also point out that historically knights did charge into pike formations, and while they generally didn't win, it was by no means instant suicide. I hope the combo of pikes and halbards works well, as that's what the Medieval Swiss themselves used.
The combination works ok.
The main problem is swords and upgrading. Swords are simply not weak enough against cavalry, especially when playing at higher florins. When they are not weak enough it just becomes too easy to have nearly all foot as swords and perhaps a couple of anti-cav infantry units.
Quote[/b] ]I know most of you don't care about history though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
And that might be true but they also have a game that allows them to buy many swords (not that historical) and are able to change a units strength with too many upgrades and therefore completely change the historical balance between units.
Im afraid that as long as we keep having too many options, we are not going to see much history in Total War MP, even if you or CA in general likes history.
CBR
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-16-2003, 14:57
Quote[/b] ]Thought I'd hop on as I've had little time over the past few weeks...
Question: Are heavy-foot/rush armies dominating at 5-10k?
Are there any missle units worth the money/capable of holding off a rush army?
With the reduction of cav from the first version, the reduction of swipe in VI:TW and now its elimination, have cav be reduced to strictly a flanking role? Can they soundly beat any infantry from the front?
If missles are still viable to stop the rush, are cav capable of eliminating them before footies run up and hack the cav?
Right now the jury is still out on what would be good at 5k or 10k. I'd say both plays in a different way. Most 10k armies I have seen so far were heavy on sword and cav; kind of 15k lite army. 5k armies are different, with usually more spears and polearm (but still sword and cav).
The missile vs rush; at 10k, well it's pretty much like 15k. Missile looks cheap, a way to save money for better hand to hand units with the additional benefit of being able to take cheap shot at expensive troops. A 10 k rush army might be spread a little thin valor wise...
At 5k, the cost of missile seems to be much higher as a proportion of the whole army, with basically the same effectiveness. There is a missile cost issue at 5k; so I'd question the missile are able to stop rush part.
Cav vs inf and running down missile; again depend on florin level. If cav charge sword at 5k, it's very likely to win quickly. If cav charge spears or polearm, it's likely to lose. At 10k... depends on upgrade choice... Cav is not really able to overkill a missile unit properly protected by footie. Now, if not properly protected....
Louis,
well me and my fellow ravens have been using turkish missle armies to great effect in our 10k games. On the whole they fare extremely well, but eventually our regular opponents decided on "anti-turk" armies, so we eventually lost a game or two, but the reccord is still standing tall http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-16-2003, 15:41
Turk missile are not what they seem to be.... On top of that missile at 10k does not change much from missile at 15k... That's the missile at 5k which is a kind of problem... I am not confident that missile at 5k get you something for your money, vs a rush , or ven without a rush. It's too bad, because missile war at 5k is a lot of fun (no armor upgrade -> missile war is faster)
Louis
Hi Guys,
Thanks LJ for your contribution to this thread, it was appreciated.
Ok, I have been conducting a little experiment of my own since the patch was released and a little data of my own to present;
Based upon 28 1v1 battles pre-patch and 20 1v1 (to-date), post patch and in order to keep this experiment controlled, I chose to battle the same guys I knew relied heavily on swiping/rushing and minimal missile units, so basically this is a before and after data:
Pre-Patch : Won 15 Lost 13 (win ratio 53.6%)
Post-Patch: Won 17 Lost 3 (Win ratio 85.0%)
My army selection was the same pre- and post-patch ie based upon the following, 4-5 missile units (3 pavs, 1-2 ca) and always 4-5 cav, these parameters only changing upon whether I was attacking and defending, h2h units always comprised 6-7 units)
In conclusion, based upon my findings:
- confirmation that the "swipe" bug has been erradicated.
- the "luck" element has been greatly reduced.
- Infantry have greater/better impact towards end of battle.
- Cav have to be used alot more wisely now ie alot more flank/rear attacks.
- a good balanced army can win.
I hope this is informative, but definately the games are alot more enjoyable, I hated being swiped.
Kansuke.
Brutal DLX
10-17-2003, 13:53
I'm glad too that the swipe bug is gone. But I wonder if this was the only thing changed in the patch?
I recently watched one of my old blood chapter replays, and the battle ended quite differently compared to how it actually ended.
I don't think anybody used swiping during this match, perhaps by accident, but still there must have been a big change somewhere, with one or more units winning when they shouldn't and causing the whole replay to go our of synch.
Maybe Kansuke should check his pre patch replays of his 1v1s (if he has any)... they also should work out differently now. Might be a good way to find out how and what things changed...
As a last note, related to the swords winning vs cav problems.. I don't think it is so unrealistic. We are talking about v3 CMAA on the average, once the charge is over, it's straight melee, and the overhead position of a mounted knight is not much of an advantage as you would think. Realistically, most would be pulled off their horses anyway or dismount by themselves to not damage their precious battle horses.
So, some who are "complaining" should re-evaluate their cavalry tactics and perhaps make more use of their superior mobility, because I think it's unlikely we will see another patch that will improve charge bonus, for example...
Hi DLX,
Excellent obervation, I hadn't thought of that nor had it occured to me that replays would behave differently pre- and post patch, sadly for me, I am on a new pc, and as a result have no old replays, arrgggggggh.
Kansuke
Yes you really cant watch any old replays. There was a lot of hidden swiping involved and one unit who would have taken 50% loses in 2.0 might have taken just 49% in 2.01 and therefore not rout because it doesnt have the penalty for 50% losses. Even small things will change a battle drastically.
About the V3 CMAA example:
No its not unrealistic for soldiers with morale 10 and 7 attack/defense to win against cavalry but its unrealistic to have such sword units.
I would say that some people might need to re-evaluate their pumped up sword tactics and think in terms of spears and polearms too.
If cavalry cant threaten swords with frontal attack there is no real need for the 2 other infantry types and we will keep on seeing the 6-8 sword 0-2 spear/polearm armies.
CBR
Apparently, the charge bonus has been removed from the swipe, and something else I've observered is that the unit leader stops moving forward if any of the men in his unit engage. I think all the differences players are seeing in the gameplay are accounted for by those two changes.
I respect any opinions about game play issues. But I see 5k people talking about historical accuracy a lot (Knights should kill swords h2h etc..) But why do you simply miss the fact that at equal costs this is not possible? Knights that killed swords were much more expensive. Again I repeat I respect opinions about game play issues. So don't reply please saying that "but in RTS cav etc... etc..."
That's right Kanuni, and in 5k games knights are more expensive than swords. That's why you don't see many knights in 5k games. The game shouldn't be played at a level where the knights and swords are equal cost. The game wasn't balanced at equal costs. It was balanced at equal valor.
Well we can also completely drop all historical concerns and then just look at the game itself.
The fact is that we have 3 different infantry types and the one that is supposed to be the worst against cavalry is actually the dominant in the games we see.
At the same time several people talk a lot about overpowered cavalry while I see them field 10-12 swords and apparently they dont see that as a problem when it comes to balance or gameplay.
We have developers who say the game is meant for low florins and who even have mentioned the number 5000 a few times.
Those of us who actually has tried to play 5k a lot, to learn what its like, have seen that the rock scissor paper works better in 5k compared 10 or 15k.
At 5k its no longer a question of just bying the best units as you now have to make compromises in unit selection. That means we actually see more units being used compared to higher florins used (another thing people have complained about)
And that 5k feels more historical just makes it even better.
...rant alert...
Yes we can have our opinions about gameplay but if one guy says that he doesnt really like spears because they dont fit into his rush army that needs to be all killers.. sure thats an oponion but it sure doesnt have much to do with how the game was supposed to be played. And Im sorry but I have no use for opinions/gameplay that are just dumbing down the game to one dimensional tactics (this is not directed at you Kanuni)
But its ok...I cant force people to play the game how its supposed to be played. I know I have lost. 5k will never be popular and I sure wont be popular by keeping on telling some of the members in the community that they are ignorants that still cant get over STW.
Only reason why I havent uninstalled MTW is because I prefer to use the in-game chat instead of GameSpy Arcade. Sometimes I even get a game but its no longer something I count on.
Apparently RTW comes out fall next year which is great because I then have a whole year to down hype myself and find some other game to play, as I expect RTW to be f..... up by the community again.
Sure it looks and sounds damn good but I want a certain level of historical accuracy/gameplay that apparently makes me a minority in this community and therefore I cant expect to play much..maybe I just need to get a life but thats easier said than done.
...rant off...
CBR
Yuuki, not with all factions maybe but I can make at least 12 cav armies with many factions in low florins.
And for the rest about balance, sword-cav problem etc...., I'm tired of writing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I think I'll just copy what I wrote at the http://totalwars.net/forum/.
Note that while I write my opinions about how the words of some 5k supporters are not logical, I do not mean any personal offense to anyone.
1. At low florin levels like 5k - 7k, pavs or other missile units actually become to expensive and instead of taking 3-4 missile units, rush armies become more cost effective and in order to become succesful vs good players rush armies will be needed. This will harm the fun IMO.
2. Again at low florin levels many expensive units and many low morale units will not be worth to take, so this will greatly reduce the number of units used.
3. Cav will become overpowered again, and all cav rush armies will rule.
4. Current amount of florins (15k) benefits skilled players because flanking cav manuevers at flanks is vital and this requires skill. IMO it actually works for skilled players that cav cannot be succesful frontally. Just clicking with cav can be done by noobs too, but manuevers requires skill. Therefore being skilled will mean less IMO if florins are lowered.
5. I think the paper-scissor-rock works best at 15k. 5k supporters say that it does not, they say spears are not needed at 15k, and swords rule. I disagree. A V2 Chiv Seargants (costs about 800s) can easily beat a V1 Chiv Knights (costs about 1100). That is difference of V2 and V1. At 5k-7k, it is very unlikely that they will have a 1V difference. So come on, according to simple logic which florin amount works better for spears for paper scissors rock system. But I and many other people don't prefer to use spears at 15k, not because they are useless, just because it is not fun playing with them, it is a matter of choice, therefore we decide to counter cav with cav instead of spears. We do not choose swords instead of spears as 5k boyz say, but we choose cav instead of spears. IMO it is certain that if some cav are replaced by spears and if they are placed well at 15k, this will even benefit the user as they will also have more florins to make inf stronger.
6. What do most 5k guys say??? paper-scissors-rock...paper-scissors-rock...paper-scissors-rock.... No... As lahll says it is only rock...rock...rock. And there is also a little paper (spears). Eventhough rocks can beat paper at 5k Paper also can beat scissors (swords) lol. If you don't believe me run tests between 5k units CMAA v0 against Chiv. Seargants v0. (Only 50 florin difference) Do not charge, just stand against them at hold formation. You can see that about 50% of the time spears do not break and beat those swords. Cav. rules, spears have chance against swords. For God's sake tell me where is paper-scissors-rock system here? Once I asked this to a 5k boy and he replied me, "but you can take v1 cmaa in 5k too". Come on This is not an answer. Then you can also take V1 Chiv Seargants at 5k or for example V2 Chivalric Knights at 15k. The answer of "but in certain circumstances it is up to unit selections" seems to be their answer for balance. Sorry but my logic is not this way.
7. Also IMO (paper-scissors-rock [spears-inf-cav]) what should make cav rock here is not only its strong h2h value that can be used frontally. They also have speed and manueverability over foot units. Also cav will beat swords frontally IMO; of course not if you click them at the time when all units engage, but the key here is cav decides when to attack infantry, not infantry decides. If infantry attacks cav, you can always move them away. But at some time of the battle if cav decides to charge, inf may not counter charge at the right time, even a 1 second delay for inf may mean a lot and they can rout. So IMO at 15k cav is still rock.
8. Some people also talk about historical accuracy. Yes in history cav beat swords h2h, but did they cost the same? Knights were much more expensive to my knowledge and this is reflected best at 15k.
9. Yes maybe CA does not do well at balancing, but all their planned adjustments were made for 15k as far as I know (Byz Inf, Lancers, Handgunners price adjustments). Will these price adjuetments really mean anything at lower florins? (The price adjustments for byz inf, handgunners etc... were only 25 florins at v0, For lancers it was 50 florins)
10. Horse archery at low florins will be much much less effective. Maybe szeks, faris and byz cavalry that can be considered as medium cav will still be useful but what about light horse archers such as turcoman, turcopoles etc...? Who will spend minimum 300 florins for them at 5k-7k games?
11. People say because swipe is gone we need to decrease the florins. How many knew about swipes after it was written at the .net anyway? And after sometime most people didn't use swipe anyway because it was started to be considered as dishonorable. And now those same people demand a florin decrease. What changed for them really? I think they were waiting for this opportunity because they were bad at playing where skill was required and some feel themselves like kings in florin levels that noone plays (No offense to anyone directly here)
These are the reasons that come to my mind now, I had more, and will write more when I remember. As a result I think florin decrease will be bad for skilled players, but if it is has to be changed then I'd vote for 12k or 12.5k.
Oh and also one of the biggest contradictions some 5k people make is, they say: "At 15k only 2 components of RTS are present-cav & swords- this means it is not balanced". When I ask them why anyone picks only these 2 components they reply because armies like this are strongest. But hey what about the strongest army in the florin level that they suggest? All cav. LOL now it is only 1 RTS. Why do they ignore this fact? When considering about balance and powerful armies at different florin levels why do they just not see this?
Oh and please don't tell me I cannot afford all cav in low florins. I can build at least 12 cav armies with many factions. Cav doesn't only mean Chivalric Knights
With the logic of the game it is impossible to create a perfect balance which people dream of. Lower florins make it even worse. Maybe those heavy knights should be slower and they should disorganize while turning, like this they should have bigger bonuses to swords, spears should have much more bonuses to cav etc... etc.... The game needs many many adjustments to run balanced at such low florin amounts. But with this current logic low florin levels will be nowhere near to being balanced.
Orda Khan
10-17-2003, 21:43
My suggestion is let's play the game at max florins get a whole bunch of funky units with stuff all historical significance and ruin everyone's fun.
...Orda
Dionysus9
10-17-2003, 22:41
I think part of the problem is that there are 2 distinct camps of players, some who prefer low florin, and some who prefer higher florin. These 2 camps RARELY IF EVER play eachother.
Kanuni v. Yuuki 1v1 is what we need. We need these 2 camps to play eachother at their favorite florin levels and see how it turns out.
Of course 5k works great against other 5k players. It might not be as "balanced" as you think against a 10-15k player.
I think the "proper" florin amount is the florin level that produces players who are more likely to win at ANY florin level. Example: 99,999 florins does nothing to increase skill. Likewise, 1,000 florins is too little to build skill also. So we know the correct level is between 1k and 99k.
We are essentially arguing about whether the "ultimate" florin level is closer to 5k or 15k, and a lot of people are saying 6.5-8k is best. It seems to me that we should have a "PLAY OFF". Each camp puts forward 4 players, and games are played at 5k, 8k, 11k, 15k. I will play at whatever florin level is promoted by the camp who dominates all florin levels.
If you are a 5k player but 10k and 15k players routinely beat you at 5k, then maybe 5k is not building your skills. Same goes for 10k and 15k players who get beat by 5k players at 10k-15k.
If 5k players normally win at 5k, and 10-15k players win at 10-15k, then it is just a matter of style and preference. I have a gut instinct that it is NOT a matter of style and preference and that one of these florin levels produces "better" players because it hones the overall skill level required to win.
Kanuni,
It looks to me like v0 cmaa beats v0 chiv sgt decisively. Also, all cav is not an overpowering force at 5k because spears do well vs cav, and a lot of that cav is going to be rather weak. At 5k you only have an average of 312 florins per unit. Ranged units are expensive in 5k, and nobody is claiming otherwise. That means you can be at a serious disadvantage in 5k if you take ranged and the other player doesn't. Taking spears at 15k in v2.01 is likewise a serious disadvantage if the other players doesn't take any because the overall combat power of your army is inferior. It isn't just you who chooses not to use spears at 15k, it's just about everyone who plays at 15k.
BTW, swipe was discussed here back in March 2002 during the time of mtw v1.1.
Skomatth
10-17-2003, 23:36
I was gonna post a really long response to Kanuni's post but I decided not to. No one listens to me anyway and usually my posts don't make sense. I do have some things to say tho.....
most if not all of those "5k gamer" statements you made have never been said by me tho I am a "5k gamer".
I like 8k the best, nice mix of cav being deadly and spear being able to stop cav and holding long enuf vs swords if your opponent picks all sword foot. I feel that at 10k tho there is no need for spear inf... You can counter cav with cav as Kanuni said but unless theres a need for spears to protect swords I don't feel the game is balanced enough.
Cav will always retain their mobility value, I just think the heavy cav needs to be able to break swords easily. At 5k its really hard to bring more than 4 chivalric knights. The rest are going to be knights that aren't suitable for frontal assault. I think cavalry by itself is most powerful at 5k upgrades and least 15k. However when you consider other factors its not nearly as strong (high price for effectiveness). I'm in the process of doing a lot of unit testing of the valours most often occurring at low florins levels and here's what I have so far, maybe this could be a separate thread with other members helping.
Steppe-both units simply doubled click at each other. Chivalric Knights were always the opponent. All v0
Unit and hold/engage...............Men left at rout point...........Cost vs 675
Halberds-E................................34 v 21-L..............................300
Feudal Men at arms-H................40 v 33-L..............................175
Miltia Sargeants-E......................50 v 40-L (impact).................150
Feudal Foot Knights....................19 v 33-L..............................275
Chivalric Sergeants....................88 v 5- W............................300
Feudal Sargeants.......................74 v 7-W .............................200
Order Foot.................................76 v 5-W................................400
Chivalric Men at Arms.................34 v 34-L...............................250
Billmen......................................31 v 26-L
Chiv Foot Knights........................31 v 0- W............................550
Pavise Crossbows.......................41 v 40-L.............................225
In case there is any confusion in the format I'll explain the Miltia sargeant line as an example: Miltia sargeants on routed on impact with 50 men left, while the chivalric knight had 40 men left. And yes, kanuni I have noticed what the problem with swords is (swords lose to spears). This probably wasn't noticed because that situation isn't encountered much. I'll address whether or not this is a major problem of 5k when I do some more testing but I'll be playing 8k in any case.
EDIT: Noticed yuuki's post which states cmaa beat chiv sars, so it seems only the most expensive order foot are the anomaly
Sko, let's not discuss in multiple forums http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif , you posted the exact reply at .net and I replied you there:
http://totalwars.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1132&start=15
Yuuki:
Quote[/b] ]It looks to me like v0 cmaa beats v0 chiv sgt decisively. Also, all cav is not an overpowering force at 5k because spears do well vs cav, and a lot of that cav is going to be rather weak.
I have done those tests many times in mp, if you want we can do tests today and write the results here.
1. v0 chiv seargants vs v0 cmaa I say that cmaa has a chance to win slightly over 50% if not even less.
2. v0 Chivlaric Knights vs v0 chivalric seargants. I have witnessed that again CK v0 wins close to 50% of time if used 1 line or some special charges like loose to close etc...
Also I disagree that cav chosen at 5k will be weak. Think of this: I can just take cav like v1 mounted seargants which is 3 att 4 def costs 298. They'll beat v0 cmaa easily (costs 250) and lots of 300 cav coming on all directions flanking units etc... will cause a chain rout in no time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Will spears and other cav be really enough to stop an all cav army?
Quote[/b] ]Taking spears at 15k in v2.01 is likewise a serious disadvantage if the other players doesn't take any because the overall combat power of your army is inferior. It isn't just you who chooses not to use spears at 15k, it's just about everyone who plays at 15k.
No m8. I think you are comparing stats for 6 swords + 1 spear vs 7 swords. But that is not what I'm talking about. Think about same amount of swords (6 or 7) and just 2-3 less cavalry + 2-3 more spears on one side (v2 chivalric seargants or v1 of). Now you know they cost less than V1 CK which is probably the cav of you and your enemy. So this means you have more to spend for your swords so they will be stronger than enemy's swords. And if you can use spears just well you'll beat his cav too. If you can catch cav of opponent with spears that means a certain win for cav war too right? But you might say that good players will never let you catch their cav with spears, then how about this: Play defensive with your cav + spears and use them at the flanks or at the rear of your swords to protect them. Never use them unless enemy cav attacks. Now it is obvious that your swords will win right? (remember you had more florins to spend on them). So as you see with doing this you don't have to play offensive at the flanks anyway. Just play defensively and use cav + spear if needed.
Now who can argue that this is wrong? You can see it is right but I repeat, I play to have fun and I have more fun with more cav instead of spears even if it means disadvantage against a player who uses spears as above. Maybe some other people only play to win and think that spears are weak and useless. Maybe if they could think of playing like described above, they'd surely use spears. Maybe they just don't know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
So you still say that spears are useless at 15k if played like described above? Btw if it was so they shouldn't be taken for 5k games too. Remember at 15k you face v1 knights with v2 spears, but at 5k it is v0 vs v0. So again at which florin level are they more useful? Maybe some people like them at 15k because they do better vs swords. But as I said earlier that only damages RTS.
Quote[/b] ]BTW, swipe was discussed here back in March 2002 during the time of mtw v1.1.
Maybe, but I haven't faced many players who used it until VI. It became a real problem with VI. I remember that most people said different theories in the "units tire too fast" thread for the swipe. I remember asking it myself http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I didn't know swipe bonus and thought it cannot be, so I even wrote wrong things http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....;st=150 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=6995;st=150)
And as you see the replies of some people you can see that majority didn't know about it either. The date is May the 25th
P.S: If you want to test online write here or find me online. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to challenge you of who knows right. I may also be wrong, but only I see that unlikely because I tested them before
Quote[/b] ]Ranged units are expensive in 5k, and nobody is claiming otherwise. That means you can be at a serious disadvantage in 5k if you take ranged and the other player doesn't. Taking spears at 15k in v2.01 is likewise a serious disadvantage if the other players doesn't take any because the overall combat power of your army is inferior. It isn't just you who chooses not to use spears at 15k, it's just about everyone who plays at 15k.
Well if I can't take range units, I can honestly say that I wont play at that florin level, where is the balanace in the army, in terms of unit selection?
Played a 8k game last night and very good players in it, it was played in late era and I must admit I saw the power of the cav even at that florin level. For a 4v4 game it didn't last long, well it took longer to set-up. Is that what we want?
I think anything less then 10k will result in alot of quick games.
Kans.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-18-2003, 14:13
Back on topic
Good riddance
Now there are some new odd strange behavior... But hey we got rid of one
Louis,
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-18-2003, 14:16
And for all the OT stuff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
There a couple of topics you may want to contribute to
Unit Balance vs morale level... (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=11435)
And more specifically
5k sucks (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=7484;st=125)
... Where, oh surprise, some Kanuni concerns were already present http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Borderline of OT; many odd behavior have been corrected since 1.0; some were good for cav (pushback on spears...), some were not (valor gain, swipe). Time to adjust?
Louis,
spacecadet
10-18-2003, 16:02
Kans,
If your talking about the 4x4 we played last night, then i wouldnt call that game representative of 8k games. Yes there were good players there but 2 of the defenders were seriously outmatched by the players directly opposite, 1 of which being Amp with a mongol cav army. It was a big 3v2 attack really.
I'd still say the feel of between 8k-10k is the best for me.
Kansuke,
Quote,
"Well if I can't take range units, I can honestly say that I wont play at that florin level, where is the balanace in the army, in terms of unit selection?"
The balance is in the willingness of the players to include ranged units in their army which they are doing in the 5k games that I've played. The basic RPS of sword, spear, cav works, and costly elite units are limited in quantity by the florins. Gameplay at the lower morale of 5k is shifted away from attrition and towards position.
The 5k is not perfect, and I think we are going to find unbalances of one kind or another at all florin levels.
Louis,
Sometimes one has to go with the flow, and I see nothing wrong with the content of this thread as one way or another they are all entwined http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Kans.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-18-2003, 17:54
Hum... Nobody is really drawing conclusion after playing one game I hope? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
The first 5k games I played were really awfull http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. Then it gets better; it's a learning experience. Unit selection is different, tactics are different, teamplay is different. Many things to learn.
A problem when one goes down to 5/8k level is that 15k games feel odd... You ain't been flanked until you've been flanked at 5k; and yes after that being flanked at 15k feels like it does not matter.
Overall, yes it feels like the game plays better for some aspect and worse for other... Play the game you like.
Like 15k, 30k or any other florins level it does take time to get used to a specific florin level and get how units behave right. AFAIK, it's still a work in process for games in the 5/8k range...
More in 5k topic...
Louis,
Well when i do draw a conclusion it will be based on at least 20 games plus, I just didn't like what I saw/felt last night, and just stated it, but way to early to draw concusions. I take it the first paragraph of previous post was directed at me
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I will have difficulty moving to lower florins, because one tends to get used to certain selections, I feel, the best course of action, for me at least, is to ween myself of the 15k games, having said that I liked the feel/balance of a 10k game I played, agian 1 game is to early to draw a conclusion
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Kans
longjohn2
10-20-2003, 22:52
I think you're all dismissing missile troops a bit too quickly for 5K games. Certainly if an opponent turns up with 12 cruddy cavalry, a few bow units will be well worth their florins, and even if he doesn't they still have their uses. They may reduce your overall combat power, but they help you break through more quickly at your given point of impact. This is as much due to the morale effect as the casualties they cause.
LJ is on the spot there for my turkish tactic. with my 8 archer turkish army, i play the morale game, and instead of having fire at will on, i focus on 2-3 units in the enemies center, as thats always the place that is weakest, and gets the least support. Hopefully i can cut down those uits by 50% and they incur some heavy morale hits at this point, leaving it up to my JI and futuwas (at 5k) to rout them off the field. If the enemy takes a lot of cavalry, i dont mind, ill focus on those units with 1-2 of my ranged guys and then send in the anti-cav units to eat them up.
Quote[/b] (spacecadet @ Oct. 18 2003,18:02)]Kans,
If your talking about the 4x4 we played last night, then i wouldnt call that game representative of 8k games. Yes there were good players there but 2 of the defenders were seriously outmatched by the players directly opposite, 1 of which being Amp with a mongol cav army. It was a big 3v2 attack really.
I'd still say the feel of between 8k-10k is the best for me.
imo its never fair to test with AMP on one side without one of the big 5 on other http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
hi there Cadet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-21-2003, 15:40
Quote[/b] (Kanuni @ Oct. 17 2003,20:18)]2. v0 Chivlaric Knights vs v0 chivalric seargants. I have witnessed that again CK v0 wins close to 50% of time if used 1 line or some special charges like loose to close etc...
I think the day of the on liner are gone...
Given that a unit is stuck, once 1 of his members is engaged I think it's going to be difficult to move around one liner without stucking them on the edge of an ennemy unit (which before would have cause a swipe).
It might still be doable, but would require an open field and possibley much more micromanagement.
Louis,
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