View Full Version : What should they do with Gladiators?
JANOSIK007
10-11-2003, 15:56
Who really wants some samnite gladiators to be running around Europe and fighting allong side legions? That's absurd. Except in rebelions, Gladiators were never an army.
So what they should do is to have trainers and training facilities (each trainer can make a name for himself with experience) who creates them as individual units and sends them to neighboring amphitheaters. This will make the populace happy and hopefully you will be able to watch as well. They can, ofcourse rebel, and then they form armies, but not of the same unit, rather mixed kinds of gladiators fighting in the same unit. Also they would gain supporters of the rebelion (e.g. slaves, other gladiators) as they pass through certain territories. I would definitelly like to have an option where I am able to lead a rebelion, while putting my ruling aside.
How sure are you that Gladiators were never used?
"Gladiators were never an army"
Actually, historically they did occasionally fight both with and against Rome.
As long as not over done mega-units, they should not be a prob.
Cheers
Actually gladiators were used in civil wars. I have dug out Tacitus' Historiae (second and third book) and found out some cases of actual engagements where gladiators were involved during the civil war of 69 AD between Otho and Vitellius. All the battles except the last one were fought in northern Italy along the Po river.
Basically the commanders in charge of gladiator units knew better than messing with legionaries, so they used them against auxiliary troops instead, and even then the results were not always good:
Cremona:
While the battle rages in the near village of Bedriacus, Marcius Macrus (the commander in charge of the 2000-strong gladiator unit in the Othonian army) crosses the river Po with a fleet of liburnae (light boats) and attacks the auxiliary troops of Vitellius on the opposite shore. The gladiators easily route the Vitellian troops, but Macrus is reluctant to exploit the success because he is worried that the enemy can be reinforced with regular troops.
Brixellum:
Vitellian generals Cecina and Valens threaten to attack the gladiators deployed on the opposite shore and begin to build a boat bridge. Marcius Macrus tries to counterattack by landing his gladiators on a island in the middle of the river, but a unit of Vitellian German auxiliaries swims to the island before the liburnae can land, then proceeds to board and sink the liburnae and kill the crews.
River Po:
A unit of Vitellian Batavian auxiliaries destroys a group of Othonian gladiators (possibly the last surviving gladiators in Otho's army) that were trying to pass the river.
Terracina:
The city is threatened by Lucius Vitellius ( brother of the emperor), and defended by a mixed force of Othonian marine infantry and gladiators, whose commanders Tacitus defines as "buffoons". This is the one recorded engagement between regular legionaries and gladiators - the gladiators do fight heroically but are killed to the last man.
So basically gladiator units do belong in RTW, but they shouldn't be too strong IMO. They should be also expensive, to reflect the training costs and the limited availability.
(not to mention the negative impact on the populace's moral, when they go to the circus and find out that the show has been canceled because all the gladiators have been drafted).
Notes:
-Otho has a 2000-man strong gladiator unit in his ranks, ie a very small number compared with the rest of his army. His gladiators were drafted by the schools of Rome.
-Tacitus defines the presence of gladiators in the army "shameful help, but often recurred to in civil war times", so it is possible that there are other examples in addition to the ones I mentioned.
- I found no mention of gladiators units being employed along the legions in regular military operations, the only case where gladiators were used as military unit seem to be civil wars.
JANOSIK007
10-12-2003, 17:56
You probably haven misunderstod my post. "Except in rebelions" encompases internal struggles of Rome. Not just the Spartacus rebelion as I am sure you've understod me.
But seriously, from historical point-of-view, how many gladiators formed standing army that defended Rome or expanded its territory.
How many samnite gladiators were running around Europe fighting Germans or Gauls?
As far as I can see it, gladiators could be used as ast resort in internal struggles of Rome (not as a standing and effective army). If they would be used it should simply be called "Gladiator unit" of different kinds of gladiators mixed together.
Yes, that was exactly my point.
Quote[/b] ] I found no mention of gladiators units being employed along the legions in regular military operations, the only case where gladiators were used as military unit seem to be civil wars.
So I agree 100% that for the best historical accuracy gladiators should only be usable in civil wars fighting. Don't know if it is possible codewise though... not to mention that the publisher will probably have a heart attack if the gladiators are pulled out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
(edited for clarity)
GranCactus
10-13-2003, 00:10
Not to mention that, when they were used in actual conflicts, I doubt they were wearing they're costumes. It's like if that NFL player who joined the army went to Iraq still wearing his Cardinals helmet.
Hakonarson
10-13-2003, 01:49
So what if they were "only" used in civil wars?
Your initial question was:
Quote[/b] ]Who really wants some samnite gladiators to be running around Europe and fighting allong side legions? That's absurd.
Clearly it is NOT absurd.
I suspect that their main use is going to be as garrisons in much the same way some units in MTW are only used for garrisons.
MizuKokami
10-13-2003, 06:02
actually, i would like it if you built them to increase the loyalty of a province, as long as you have built some sort of stadium for them to fight in. of course, the chances for a gladiator upriseing would have to be determined. you would build them with your captured prisoners, and if one of your gladiators was a particularly valient general when he was your enemy, you would have to pamper him or risk the upriseing. also, if you let your gladiators sit idle without putting on shows, this too would lead them towards an upriseing.
JANOSIK007
10-13-2003, 21:53
Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Oct. 12 2003,19:49)]Clearly it is NOT absurd.
I suspect that their main use is going to be as garrisons in much the same way some units in MTW are only used for garrisons.
But to even use them as garison makes no sense. Either they would fight in civil wars (or other internal crisis) or in stadiums. These units shouldn't be used as standard military units (especially in their often impractical costumes). It is absurd to do that.
Otherwise why don't we just send those fishnet/trident gladiators to garison frontiers and fight barbarians. It's kracking me up just to thing of it.
It is my humble opinion that Gladiator units should only be found in slave rebellions and mercenary units.
Hakonarson
10-14-2003, 01:30
Then your humble opinion is simply wrong Spino.
Gladiators were used in at least 2 armies in the 1st century BC - Appian records 2 instances of gladiators being used in the civil wars:
- by Decimus Brutus against Antony in 44 BC: "His army was made up of a quantity of gladiators and three regular legions..." (Appian Civil War III.49)
- by Lucius Antonius against Octavian in 41 BC: "Lucius moved rapidly on Rome by sending ahead three cohorts which entered the city unobserved at night, and followed himself with a large force including cavalry and gladiators" (Appian Civil War V.30)
- and "Octavian's men were better at
throwing missiles, Lucius' gladiators at hand-to-hand combat..." (Appian Civil War V.33)
Janos - what do you think Garrisons are doing? In the Roman civil wars "garrisons" weer the troops holding cities - often as not they were actively pursuing rival factions. Gladiators and armed "civilian" mobs were often used to hunt, kill and otherwise intimidate political opponents when there weer no legions handy.
Ok Hak, point taken. But a few instances during a 100 year period do not make for common usage. I am worried that RTW will treat gladiators like any other buildable unit, thus making for some really 'gamey' and ridiculously ahistorical build strategies. By limiting Gladiators to 'mercenary' status their overall usefulness becomes limited by their inability to replenish their ranks and their high support cost.
I guess what I am hoping to see are some special rules and limitations regarding gladiators and other slave units. Realistically the number of gladiator units available at any given moment should depend upon the tech level of the relevant buildings (slave market, ampitheater, collisseum, etc.) and the population of the city they're being drafted from. Always there when you need them but an iffy proposition to use as taking them away from the games should have a negative effect on loyalty as Magnatz mentioned. It seems wrong to allow a faction to churn out gladiator units as a sensible alternative to low level 'regular' units who would ordinarily be doing most of the fighting.
Hakonarson
10-14-2003, 05:11
I couldn't agree more.
My thought exactly.
(it is not like I am bumping this thread just because people from CA seems to be reading this forum... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )
Funky Phantom
10-19-2003, 23:27
Ever get the feeling the inclusion of this unit may be a victory for the hollywood faction over the historical accuracy faction?
*Thinks of the film Gladiator and the scene in which Russel Crowe and his band of super-gladiators defeat the Chariots*
GAH
Vanya sez... there are TWO types of gladiators in ze game. The first are slaves who typically entertain the people by bringing them death. These fight with real weapons and afterwards return to their slave life. Their morale is low, but they know the penalty of fleeing. So they stick around to the last man.
The second type are the "free" gladiators - former slaves who met the emperor and won their freedom after an inspiring battle in the colosseum. These are elite, veteran fighters. But they fight with the wooden swords that symbolize their freedom. Thus, they are easily overcome by units with decent weapons and should never be used to hold a position. Still, they can beat unarmed peasants and slaves into a pulp on any given day.
GAH
RisingSun
10-21-2003, 22:42
Quote[/b] ]"free" gladiators - former slaves who met the emperor and won their freedom after an inspiring battle in the colosseum. These are elite, veteran fighters. But they fight with the wooden swords that symbolize their freedom. Thus, they are easily overcome by units with decent weapons and should never be used to hold a position. Still, they can beat unarmed peasants and slaves into a pulp on any given day.
ROFL Good one
Orda Khan
10-22-2003, 20:30
It wouldn't hurt the game to do without them
......Orda
Agreed, but I wouldn't count on it... the publishers will definitely go ballistic if hollywood stereotypes such as gladiators and "classic" egyptians are removed from the game. So the glads are here to stay, the only issue is whether they will be:
- yet another buildable unit (wrong)
- expensive mercs (better)
- non-Roman war prisoners, possibly with a upper limit to their total number (even better)
- a bonus unit that you obtain in limited numbers when you build colosseums, gladiator schools or whatever (much better IMO)
Also gladiators should come with a happiness bonus, as long as they stay in town and do gladiatorial stuff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
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