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View Full Version : The Battle of Liegnitz



Skomatth
09-07-2003, 04:37
It is April 8, 1241, somewhere near Liegnitz. Kaidu, leader of 20,000 Mongols (just part of the 70,000 Mongols ultimately pursuing the objective of conquering Hungary), sat in his ger sipping koumiss and discussing his campaign with Baidar. Their objective was to draw off any Polish support Hungary might receive, . We muand now Duke Henry II of Silesia was marching out of Liegnitz towards the plain at Wahlstadt with 30,000 men unknowingly just ahead of King Wenceslas with 50,000 Bohemian reinforcementsst engage them before they unite. We march for Wahlstadt, said Kaidu. Baidar agreed silently...

Duke Henry II kneeled in his private quarters in Liegnitz, eyes closed, breathing deeply. He had the last major army in Poland, his actions now could decide the fate of his country. The Mongols had destroyed Sandomir and Lublin. Now Liegnitz was next. King Wenceslas was coming from Bohemia with reinforcements, but the Mongols might be getting reinforced too. He made the decision to march out with his force of Polish knights, Teutonic Knights, French Knights Templar and a levy of foot soldiers, including German gold miners from the town of Goldbergo. As he rode out of the city a stone from the roof of St. Mary's Church fell and narrowly missed him, an omen of bad luck...

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Well there's some brief background http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif This is going to bed a historical battle recreation and will include similar units and map, but will not require the Polish team to lose. It will require you to have CBR's MpWars mod for VI
available here:
MpWars (http://www.mizus.com/hosted/CBR/MPWarsBeta.exe)

And o_liegnitz the map from the MP-SPECIFIC-MAPPACK available in file section of the .org or here: MP-SPECIFIC-MAPPACK (http://www.totalwars.net/downloads/maps/MP-SPECIFIC-MAPPACK.zip)

Here are the armies, though they are tentative cause I'm testing em for balance. see for me source: http://historymedren.about.com/library/prm/bl1mongolinvasion.htm

King Henry's

Left battle under command of Boleslave (German faction):

6 groups of 40 Knights
5 groups of 120 Militia spearmen
3 groups of 60 Militia crossbowmen
2 groups of 40 Mrchers

Left center battle under command of Sulislav (Polish faction):

5 groups of 40 Druzhina Cavlary
2 groups of 80 Armoured spearmen
3 groups of 120 Spearmen
3 groups of 60 Woodsmen
2 groups of 90 Archers

Righ center battle under the command of the Opolian Duke Meshko and Teutonic Knights from Prussia under the Heermeister Poppo von Ostern (Teutonic faction):

7 groups of 30 Teutonic Knights
5 groups of 80 Order Foot Soldiers
2 groups of 60 Pavise Crossbowmen
2 groups of 40 Archers

Right side battle under the command of Duke Henry himself (Polish faction):
6 groups of 40 Druzhina Cavalry
4 groups of 80 Armoured Spearmen
2 groups of 40 Axemen
4 groups of 60 Archers

Mongol Armies:

Baran-gar and Jungar (right and left wings) under command of unknown warriors:

3 groups of 30 Mongol Heavy Cavalry
3 groups of 40 Steppe Heavy Cavalry
4 groups of 30 Mangudai
3 groups of 60 Mongol Horse Archers
3 groups of 60 Horse Archers

The Khol, split into 2 divisions (so this army is taken twice) and commanded by Kaidu and Baidur:

4 groups of 30 Mongol Heavy Cav
5 groups of 40 Steppe Heavy Cav
4 groups of 30 Mangudai
3 groups of 60 Mongol Horse Archers

Wow, sign up here, discuss, first come first serve

Shahed
09-07-2003, 04:43
Nice. Signing up for Mongols.

How many battles will we play ?
Does the army breakdowns above represent different battles ? or just one ?

I guess it's one 4vs2 battle ?

CBR
09-07-2003, 04:50
Ok looks nice, I'll crosscheck the armies tomorrow ;-)

Whats the combined unitcost for the two sides?

CBR

Skomatth
09-07-2003, 04:51
We can play as many battles as the players want, maybe after the officially sanctioned one just some fun games.

By battles I mean battalions (sp?) thats what they called battalions in europe at the time, one player gets one battle.

No, actually its 4v4. 1 guy for each battle on euro side. One guy for the Baran-gar, one for Jun-gar, 2 for the Khol.

Skomatth
09-07-2003, 04:52
Upgrades not allowed CBR, just pick those exact units with 99k.

CBR
09-07-2003, 04:59
Thats not what Im talking about. Just default unit cost. To see how balanced (on paper) the battle would be.

CBR

Shahed
09-07-2003, 04:59
Well I have not done the math, but the Mongols need to be outnumbered 1.5:1 (30:20) according to the info provided in the intro. Is that the case with the current army setup ?

Skomatth
09-07-2003, 05:02
eh, no, but my intynet shuts down automatically at 11pm so I was anxious to get it posted and constructing the armies was very brief. I do want both sides to have an equal chance of winning, do u agree?

CBR
09-07-2003, 05:05
Right now its 2:1 I think

CBR

Shahed
09-07-2003, 05:08
Sure. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif On an equal basis you can't win unless the enemy does not commit the units which outnumber yours.

You can still win if you are outnumbered, if the fixed armies are valored unevenly (e.g 115fl for Mongold, 100fl for the other), and if deployment and engagement restrcitions are imposed.

Or more simply you need to make sure that each unit of the Mongols can match each unit of the Poles statistically. Anyway that is another story. It's up to you how you want to run this. I'll play how you choose to set it up.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Orda Khan
09-07-2003, 21:22
This sounds great ... count me in. Mongol of course

Sko, one small detail...... Qaidu being one of the Mongol commanders is a bit of a mistaken translation and reports of he and Baidar conducting Mongol military affairs in Poland must be questioned. Qaidu was born in 1230 and though he was Ogedei Khan's grandson was highly unlikely to to be commanding a Mongol army at such a young age. Qadan has been named as the other commander in numerous accounts and Batu's older brother, Orda has even been credited in some. The source of information is very vague and remarkably some of these battles have been hailed as great victories for Christendom rather than the crushing defeats they actually were.

As the Mongol force contained Princes from each house and we know that Guyuk was the other representative of the house of Ogedei, I would tend to lean towards Qadan. However that still leaves Orda as the other Prince from the house of Jochi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Was this another mistranslation? ..Orda...Baidar..some sources have even called him Peta. As a guess I would imagine ( and probably totally innaccurately )that having inherited the lands of the northern steppes from the Volga to the Irtysh river, Orda may have undertaken a lesser role than others hoping to prove themselves.

.........Orda

Skomatth
09-08-2003, 02:20
that went totally over my head hehe.

Orda Khan
09-09-2003, 17:39
No worries Sko ....I'm used to it

..Orda