View Full Version : ****Wedges****
If they give such a attack bonus!
Why dont many ppl use them?
Do they also boost moral?
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)
Katasaki Hirojima
01-05-2002, 06:22
Because they also cause extra losses. You really should only use the wedge with high honour or high morale units because the sudden loss of men whould make lesser willed men run.
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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.
I often start a charge with a wedge then just after they've made contact revert to lines.
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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]
I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)
Flame of Udun
01-05-2002, 06:56
I use wedges for cavalry and NDs my YS and YA always run when I try to wedge them
theforce
01-05-2002, 07:05
Hmmm wedges. It has been a long time since l last saw anyone using such a formation. Also units in wedge formation are too packed making them a very easy target for projectile. They die very easily. Also attacking as wedge and then turning to regular formation since men are allready engaged. Also l saw that units in wedge that are getting flanked die quicker.
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html
sorry, off topic, does your icon guy have a beard shoko?
Quote Originally posted by NARF:
sorry, off topic, does your icon guy have a beard shoko?[/QUOTE]No he shaves every day....Like u do ur legs http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
But does wedge increase morale while in it?
I know DareARuler uses these to great affect?
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)
Charge with wedge on, but while they are fighting switch it back to normal.
Yep - Dareal uses them.
Wedge give an attack bonus, but they must be put back to normal lines once they're engaged - like Zone said.
Units on wedge die faster from missile, but they move faster than normal formation.
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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.kenchi.cjb.net/).
I'm from Malta, but I'm not a Malteser. http://terazawa.totalwar.org/malta_md_clr.gif
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theforce
01-05-2002, 18:39
Can the units change it's formation after angaging or does the current formation gets stuck in a way?
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html
Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
like Zone said.
[/QUOTE]
Woohoo! You can also start attacking in a line if you're worried about projectiles, change to wedge just before impact, then back again. If you want to win you have to be prepared for some micro-management.
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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]
I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)
NinjaKilla
01-06-2002, 02:01
Being hetrosexual, I'm about talking olde Shoggy; http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif but I guess its the same in the new game.
I find wedges really useful because they are a tight compact formation. It is especially useful when trying to manouvre units through a melee without them 'clipping' and enemy unit and becoming engaged. Personally I haven't noticed any considerable attack bonus. As for missile damage, I know that Dar used to leave units behind his guns in triangle in order to reduce damage... again I dunno if this works or not...
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)
My experiance is that wedgies can sometimes hurt and cause alot of discomfort......OH wedges, http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gifsorry thought you were talking about something else...sorry
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TeuTonic
Stransky-Grab your MP-40 and I'll take you where the Iron crosses grow row on row.
Steiner...
I was wondering how long it would be before that came up http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]
I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)
to me wedge is as useful as honour 0 YA.
theforce
01-06-2002, 16:54
But h0 ya can beat h0 arq.
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html
And i used em to good extend hitting the rear of a NC http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif then again , when the nc mullered the nd in front to the last man , the ashi were not so sure that despite they had enough horsemeat to hold a barbeque , they should fight on ..
NinjaKilla
01-06-2002, 21:03
Damn Euros and their horse eating tendencies...
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)
Why do u think defenders tried to break a siege ninge? They were out of food and wanted to feast on enemy horsemeat http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Shimazu2
01-06-2002, 23:11
If you ever run some tests with the wedge and close formations with equal units you will find that the wedge units will survive with about 10 to 20 men more then the unit in close formation... yes it gives a attack bonus but i never put mine in wedge.. cause if you are flanked when in wedge formation your men will be picked off like little gnats http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Honour to the Naginata!
Death to the Peasant Horde!
So shall be peace...
-Shimazu2
qwertyuiop
01-07-2002, 00:37
I often charge with wedge then quickly switch back in the skirmish.
Do you instantly regain the defense factor when you switch back or do you have to wait for them to move into the right formation again?
If you get the square formation bonus right away I would consider this a little cheap to continue http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
I would expect an extra loss of the defense factor now that I think about it. Changing formation puts your units in disarray temporarily, thus at a weakened state. But I know this does not happen when I think about the even little modding experiences I have had.
Just a question since we are discussing wedge and close formation. I notice on several trials with YS on close and engage formation vs other units, the close formation bonus seems only to apply when YS maintains the line. When they lose the line (i.e. a close formation is kept when you see the 1st row is in a line, and is lost when enemy manage to break through at one point and all get into a mass orgy, if you get what i'm describling), they don't seems to have the defence bonus anymore, even if they are under close formation. Am I right?
I use wedge as a last desperate measure on my SA who are out of ammo,and flanking some enemies.
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tootee the goldfish
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Gaxebo-sama
01-07-2002, 14:54
Wedge when running down the hill and for flank.
Quote Originally posted by theforce:
But h0 ya can beat h0 arq.
[/QUOTE]
No way, Jose!
H0 Arquebusiers in wedgie formation can beat ANY other unit type, even if the other unit types are H9 with max weapon and armor upgrades.
And the wet gunny wedgie army of doom works especially well in heavy rainstorms. Stealtheir than ninjas, packs more firepower than any other unit in the game, only cav is faster on the run, made up of crack elite Ashigaru... no wonder these units are second to none!
GAH!
... and their heavy guns are especially good for crushing bones and skulls.. katana and naginata aren't no match ...
that's it Vanya. Give that teppo back.
I warned you... back to the ricepaddies mister!
lol http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]
I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)
BakaGaijin
01-08-2002, 07:59
I tend to put my horses into wedges when maneuvering them around, as units in wedge formation seem to reorder themselves more quickly than those in close. Wedge is particularly useful for Cavalry Archers, as their most effective arrow-firing formation of three rows is rather unwieldy to maneuver about, but the same unit in wedge can get around easily and without accidentally bumping into anybody.
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"If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2
I have made a few test runs about wedge formations. Contrary to the expectations -and contrary to Shim http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif the wedged guys were inferior to the guys in close formation. I tested monks vs. monks and nodachis vs. nodachis.
Here are the test results, the guys in wedged formation were the defenders, both party charged HTH, ironing board, spring, closed formation 4 men deep (kills/man lost from the point of view of the wedged formation):
Nodachi (H2) vs nodachi (H2):
38: 47
43: 52
50: 59
17: 36
28: 52
35: 51
48: 52
38: 45
51: 48
31: 58
Nodachi (H5) vs nodachi (H5):
43: 60
42: 60
48: 60
24: 58
42: 57
Nodachi (H9) vs nodachi (H9):
42: 60
36: 60
41: 60
44: 60
60: 46
Monk (H2) vs monk (H2):
27: 46
35: 50
48: 53
42: 42
60: 45
41: 58
27: 55
35: 58
31: 55
34: 49
Monk (H5) vs monk (H5):
60: 42
59: 57
34: 55
43: 54
49: 60
Monk (H9) vs monk (H9):
32: 60
46: 60
60: 41
37: 60
37: 60
The sums:
Nodachi (H2) vs nodachi (H2): 379: 500
Nodachi (H5) vs nodachi (H5): 199: 295 (398: 590)
Nodachi (H9) vs nodachi (H9): 223: 286 (446: 572)
Monk (H2) vs monk (H2): 380: 511
Monk (H5) vs monk (H5): 245: 268 (490: 536)
Monk (H9) vs monk (H9): 212: 281 (424: 562)
() : extrapolated to ten runs -i.e. multiplied by 2 http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I think it is pretty conclusive. Wedged units can occasionally (!!) win but that is all. Since nodachis and monks are the elite of the melee troops I think it is reasonable to conclude that the wedge formation gives no attacking advantage at all.
Cheetah
Ah, but what if you revert back to line just after they've engaged?
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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]
I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)
P.S. smilies should work in the signature!
theforce
01-09-2002, 02:49
Hmmmm don't forget the CA attacking bonus attackign h9 nag in a forest...
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html
Major Robert Dump
01-09-2002, 03:28
Im with Gaijin on this one.... I don't really use wedge very much for attacks, but I DO use it whenever I need to wuicky manuever my men through tight spots. The (seem) reorganize more quickly and can do sharp turn with better finesse....
The only time I use wedge for attack is when I'm hitting a weak unit like guns or archers directly from behind...
Shimazu2
01-09-2002, 07:05
question cheetah.. which is which? (the units vs units... which is formations?) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
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"I am what I am"
-Popeye the sailor man
nodachi (wedge formation) vs nodachi (closed formation) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
same for the monks
Cheetah
Cheetah,
Did you make your tests online or in a LAN game? Tests against the ai in custom are suspect because the ai units may not suffer fatigue at the same rate as the human controlled units. The only reason I can think of that the wedge would be at a disadvantage is if the men in the point are outnumbered and attacked more than once in each cycle.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
I tested against the ai, but I was defending with the wedged unit, so I stayed put up to the final charge.
The wedged unit has the disadvantage you mention and therefore the Taisho dies very quickly. They might have the attacking bonus (+2) mentioned in the description of the game but at the front they are badly outnumbered.
Cheetah
Shouldn't you be testing with the wedge attacking a closed formation and compare that to a closed formation attacking a closed formation? The question is does the wedge help in attack, my suggestion would better answer the question I think.
Oh, yes, but you could hardly find a human opponent who would just sit and wait for you to attack http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif And as far as the testing is concerned you cannot tell to the AI either to sit and wait.
Cheetah
Quote Originally posted by Cheetah:
I tested against the ai, but I was defending with the wedged unit, so I stayed put up to the final charge.
The wedged unit has the disadvantage you mention and therefore the Taisho dies very quickly. They might have the attacking bonus (+2) mentioned in the description of the game but at the front they are badly outnumbered.
Cheetah[/QUOTE]Never attack with ur Gen unit in Wedgie,he will die very quickly http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gifIf not the first unit to die http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)
BanzaiZAP
01-12-2002, 08:24
I can't believe noone's mentioned this:
The best use of Wedges is Breaking Lines.
Hold a melee unit (cavalry, ashi, no-dachi, whatever you like) and wait for the fight to get into the "two lines meeting" stage. Have your wedged unit run, not at the engagement line, but BEHIND it. They smash right through the lines and are now behind your enemy! Switch back to Close Formation and charge the enemy from behind!
I've done this a number of times to great effect. Part of the key is to hold fresh units in reserve - not as reinforcements, but as men on the field, waiting before being sent into the fray. They'll still be Fresh and Steady when the attackers are beginning to tire. One or two of these line-smashings will usually break their morale. Be careful if you use ashi's for this, as they sometimes panic.
-- B)
Cunning! If other people did do this then they probably didn't want to give it away http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif I'm sure everyone has some little trick or such that they don't want to let on to.
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ROFL..Zone does not rest [MIZILUS]
I don't play to win... I play not to lose ;)
P.S. smilies should work in the signature!
High Voltage
01-14-2002, 03:37
I like to wedge my general, which is usually a higher honor heavy cav. While the two armies are engaged, I look for a gap in the enemy line, go through it, turn around, and hit from behind with the wedge. In no time at all the enemy unit being hit from both sides runs, then my cav goes for the next unit, making him run, etc.
The only tricky part is making your opponent's line have a gap to run through, always fun suprising them like this http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
BakaGaijin
01-15-2002, 07:56
Interesting. I had thought we would need to wait for M:TW to break through lines, but here it is in good old Shogun!
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"If your soul is imperfect, living will be difficult." -- Ryo Hayabusa, DOA2
shogunnewbie1
01-19-2002, 14:55
http://shogunnewbie.tripod.com
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BomilkarDate
01-19-2002, 18:27
I use wedges for my ND and my Cav Archers. I put the Cav archers in lines 3 men deep and then wedge them to run around. They follow orders better in wedges. When I get in firing range I just hit "C" and they stand in lines again. If the enemy tries to close in on them i wedge and run.... or later in battle I always wedge em and flank enemy units.
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Strength and honour
Bomilkar Date
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