View Full Version : AI strategy changes in VI
Since I installed VI, I have noticed that the behaviour of AI-controlled faction has changed quiet a bit. All the comments hereafter relate to campaigns started in the early period:
- Almohad no longer a match for Spain: while under MTW 1.0 (never played with the first patch), the Almo managed 8 times of 10 to control the whole of Spain after a few years, it seems now that the tide is reversed and the Spaniard reach Tunisia in twenty years almost every time;
- Danes seems to do a little better and sometimes are reckless enough to invade Sweden
- Russian conquer Finland at that is all they want. After the sit and wait.
- German gets initial success but they are way to prone to rebellion. The first setback or excommunication means that they lose their initial edge.
- Turkish get smash 9 times out of ten (ok it happened a lot before but it seems to have become more frequent).
- Polish often do quite well since they are surrounded by easy pickings (eastern rebels and crumbling HRE, see above).
- French beats English most of the time and become a super-power but build too many risky crusades;
- the Pope has become a warlord and often attacks the Italian or Sicilian. Easy when you can excommunicate yours foes at the first counter-attack...
- No change for Aragones, Byzantines and Egyptian it seems.
Any comment or addition ?
IMO, the Spanish reconquista was a feature of VI, not the patch. They often seem to steamroller on into the Holy Land and become a major power - which is a challenge if you are role-playing a Catholic nation in GA and want to crusade.
I don't know if it is the patch, but as HRE on early, I found England building a ship before I did - which was interesting, as I was racing for it.
Haven't played enough post-patch to comment on your other observations but they sound true of VI (except that the Turks often seemed to kick the Byzantines into the steppes).
It is possible the patch has changed the strategic AI. CA has changed more than the 4 points in the readme - at least, ECS has mentioned some new command lines.
The Wizard
10-21-2003, 16:10
In VI I saw - relatively disturbing but, seeing as I love them, good - that the Byzantines crush the Turks and roll over the Egyptians in two campaigns - one with the HRE and one with the Aragonese... cool. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
In my last game as the Danes, it is now about 1370 and the Egyptian have done nothing at all for ages. They took Cyrenaiqua and Tunisia from rebels after the Almohads had collapse and then it was it. After that they just repelled crusades. The funny thing is that they did not even try to fulfill their GA goals since there is a forteress in Palestinia but only a fort in Egypt ...
Not something usual since they usually smash the Turks to then try their luck against the Byzantines.
As for English boat, that is a good point, I have also seen the Brits build boats quite early in the game. The funny thing is that rather than attacking Ireland, they often go after Saxonia or Friesland.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
The Wizard
10-21-2003, 16:25
Saxonia...? I presume you mean the Netherlands (no, not the present-day country, but the name for the region in that time)...?
Snowhobbit
10-21-2003, 16:27
I've seen that the AI have improved in bridgebattles,
when there is two bridges they attack both om em, I was stunned to the degree that I almost lost the battle...
Or is it Saxony ? I meant the one that gives a valour bonus to Gothic knights... It seems to me it is about Hamburg now.
The Wizard
10-21-2003, 16:32
Yes that would be Saxony. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Wrongly called so, for Saxons now live in England. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Funky Phantom
10-21-2003, 18:14
The Almohads were really taken down a peg or ten in VI, they always used to steamroller the Spaniards, then the French, then attack and defeat enemies randomly across Europe before rebellions cut them to pieces :/
It was slightly unnerving to find that they got as far as Finland in one of my campaigns and i hadnt even got to the high era yet :/
However now it seems to be the complete opposite, they dont take advantage of their superior AUM anymore and build very few, get trampled on by Spain and thats that :/
While this is more historically true (well, vaguely) its not much fun, though it is preferable to the 'Almohad Avalanche' (I recall a topic here called that a long time ago) encountered previously...
As a side note, im very dissapointed with the Russians and the Danes as factions. As opposed to just sitting in Denmark and doing nowt for the whole game, the Danes now capture Sweden THEN sit and do nowt for the whole game... big improvement :/
The Russians do exactly the same but just with Finland in place of Sweden, despite having lots of juicy rebel provinces around them (admittedly i have seen them do exciting stuff before but only once)
These are just my experiences and they may not be common, my observations are based on my early era games.
hellenes
10-21-2003, 18:17
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Oct. 21 2003,16:32)]Yes that would be Saxony. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Wrongly called so, for Saxons now live in England. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Anglo-saxons=germans the germans are relatives of the "english" cause the english invaded british isles (i cant remember the date) and conquered almost all of it so saxons ARE from saxony aka they are german tribe...
brent_james
10-21-2003, 19:29
Its good to know the HRE isn't as stable, which I think is how it should have been made.
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Oct. 21 2003,10:32)]Yes that would be Saxony. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Wrongly called so, for Saxons now live in England. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Anglo-Saxons.
anglo=ENGLISH
the ENGLISH Saxons now live in england.
Its not like every single Saxon abandoned their original home http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Jeebus_Frist
10-21-2003, 19:42
You guys seriously need to get MedMod3.12, visit the Dungeon. Wes has reinvented MTW for me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The Wizard
10-21-2003, 20:53
Quote[/b] (hellenes @ Oct. 21 2003,12:17)]
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Oct. 21 2003,16:32)]Yes that would be Saxony. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Wrongly called so, for Saxons now live in England. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Anglo-saxons=germans the germans are relatives of the "english" cause the english invaded british isles (i cant remember the date) and conquered almost all of it so saxons ARE from saxony aka they are german tribe...
Of course - I understand that much. But in the Great Migration at the end of the Roman Empire, the Angles from the west of what is today Friesland in Holland (and in that time the area where the Chauks lived) and the Saxons from what is today central northern Germany (south of the border with Denmark) migrated west and crossed the North Sea to England... the Romano-Britons fought long and hard but they were doomed to lose without Roman support.
BTW the Angles and Saxons are Germanic tribes... just like the Germans, which are a collection of, if I am correct, Teutons and other tribes... in the Roman age the Germans lived to the east of the Rhine and were even larger in body size than the Celts living to the west of the Rhine and to the south of the Danube, all the way to what is today Bulgaria... when the Huns came they drove many of the Germans west, which eventually destroyed what remained of the West-Roman empire...
Also.. I tried a game with the Kievans but it crashed as soon as I tried to view the GA... any advice?
The_Emperor
10-21-2003, 22:38
I have noticed that the Turks last longer in VI compared to previously.
I also noticed the Egyptians tend not to steamroll over the eastern side of the map quite as much as they used to, but Byzantium often does the Steppe stampede now and that seems to divert attention away from the Turks (for a short while).
Spain always seems to do the North Africa run turning into a superpower.
The France and England question remains undecided, I have seen the french roll over the English many times, but I have also seen the English beat them back on a number of occassions.
Still its a good improvement.
Pretty much all of those changes happened in the 1.1 patch.
I used to enjoy waiting to see who would come out on top between the Almos and the Spanish but the ability to build crusades really early made the Spanish too strong and the Almos were pretty much eliminated from the game.
The_Emperor
10-21-2003, 23:01
Quote[/b] (Mary, Queen of Scots @ Oct. 21 2003,22:53)]Pretty much all of those changes happened in the 1.1 patch.
I used to enjoy waiting to see who would come out on top between the Almos and the Spanish but the ability to build crusades really early made the Spanish too strong and the Almos were pretty much eliminated from the game.
Really?
In 1.1
I used to always see the Almos beat up on Spain hard, and Egypt became a massive empire whos borders went from the Middle East to Northern Russia http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Sometimes Byzantium would replace Egypt as the dominant power, but it was a very rare event.
And this mostly happened when playing as the English, because I didn't play much of the other sides until after VI was installed (so that might have something to do with it)
Razor1952
10-22-2003, 04:59
The Ai has default personalities for each faction, however it seems to change these randomly somewhat for each game.
If a faction is allowed to develop the sea trade personality it will inevitably become the superpower due to $'s$'s. The other ai personlaities tend to waste their money on 80% farm improvements etc.
So if you mod out sea trade (mostly anyway) then the other ai personalities get a better chance to succeed. Similarly the human player has to be a lot more careful if he can't get ridiculous $'s from a few key sea provinces(like 10k/year each from sweden/antioch etc)
I would suggest you try your own modding of the startpos files to change the default personalities and also the amount gained (%) by conquest while you're at it.
Run the game in auto mode(-ian switch) and .matteosartori. to see the whole map and you will be able to see how each faction really turns on their economy based on their ai personality.
Brutal DLX
10-22-2003, 12:05
I have to agree with Emperor here. The Spanish were strengthened in 1.1 (before they were almost always losing to the Almohads), but there were still quite a few times the Almohads came through. But since VI the Spanish appear to win almost always. I'm tired of seeing yellow and having to keep an eye on Spain all the time...
In general, Nowgorod seem to do a little better, true they take Finland and then sit, but every now and then they have the enlightenment to march into Muscovy and go from there.
Of course, it all ends once the Horde arrives.
HRE should really be fixed by giving the King more command stars so that his heirs don't suck when attacking provinces and hence the whole empire doesn't fall apart as soon as they lose two provinces.
Byzantine and Turks seem to do a bit better, at the expense of the Egyptians, which is a good thing. They were the Spanish of 1.0/1.1 ... Large Byzantine empires are a challenge as they have lots of good generals. If only the AI would stop building Slav warriors galore....but to a point I can understand them.. they are so temptingly cheap. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
As for the HRE, the main problem is that it is wat too prone to rebellion. Even with one or two better princes, here is now way it will be able to secure all its borders and it is thus that it will loose a few provinces (even when you play as the HRE it is not all that easy early in the game).
Under VI, the HRE is crippled by this low loyalty. It the German lose a province, they get a rebellion. If they manage to take a few away from a catholic neighbour, they get excommunicated and they get a Rebellion.
As for the Spanish becoming a super-power, that is fine by me. They are always easier to stop and more fun to fight againts than the Almohads in MTW 1.0. The threat of excommunication prevents them from steamrolling all over the map after they have finished the Almo. I remember perfectly how bored I was to fight those battles in Franconia against hordes of Almohads so early in the game (about 1160)... I have even stopped a few campaigns when I saw that the usual 10 stacks of Almos had invaded Toulouse because I could not find the patience to go through that process all over again.
As for the Byz, they are an impressive foe if they do not get lost wandering in the steppes instead of defending Constantinople. Even if they rely too heavily on peasants and slav warriors, they can be a tough fight thanks to the quality of their leaders. Kharpatoi are quite difficult to break when commanded by a nine star, great warrior natural leader.
Brutal DLX
10-23-2003, 09:36
I meant that if the HRE princes would get more stars, they had a better chance of defending, attacking and reconquering rebellious provinces, because that's where they really fail. They have the manpower but often retreat due to facing superior generals. Also with more battles won, the influence of the king would rise and thus general loyalty of his generals.
About the Spanish, believe me, they don't care about excommunication at this stage, especially if they eliminate the pope or are allied with him for a long long time, and if you don't manage to disrupt their fleet network, they shift massive stacks around and put down any rebellion within two or three turns.
For me, it's boring to fight against any superempire, be it the Almohads or Spanish or Byzantines, what makes it worse is if you have to face the same superempire in about every campaign you play...
One pleasant thing I forgot to mention is that starting with VI, the infrastructure is preserved as long as the castle isn't taken. Now there are much more castles and citadels all over the map once the late era rolls around... recently I took Livonia and they had built a citadel there... And the Horde built a fortress in Chazar...
The Wizard
10-23-2003, 09:39
PErsonally I find the HRE campaign slow and annoying due to the imminent threat of Italian and French incursions, loyalty problems, and the occassional Polish/Danish invasions... once in an HRE campaign I suffered from a four-front war in 1107 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Wizzy - on normal, you can deter early invasion as HRE but it is a tightrope between investing in the economy to pay for your army and paying to raise that army. After half a century or less, human-led HRE can get so rich and militarily strong that it is fairly safe (as can any faction through sea trade, I guess). Loyalty issues go away if you invest enough in property (the builder and steward trees of virtues) and beat up the odd rebel in Pomerania or elsewhere.
It is quite a fun faction - reminds me a lot of the game Imperialism 2 which had even more tense tightropes to walk on hard difficulty, although I agree it can seem slow. It is a little "all or nothing" - ie either deterrence fails and you have ceaseless conflict; or it works and you never fight anything.
The Wizard
10-27-2003, 19:55
Well, I know that, and I like challenging campaigns, but I kinda got annoyed when a french army got itself trapped in Swabia, after it marched straight through Lorraine, destroying many important buildings in my most important province. After that, I kinda had enough for now...
Maybe I should start an Italian campaign again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] (brent_james @ Oct. 21 2003,13:29)]
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Oct. 21 2003,10:32)]Yes that would be Saxony. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Wrongly called so, for Saxons now live in England. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Anglo-Saxons.
anglo=ENGLISH
the ENGLISH Saxons now live in england.
Its not like every single Saxon abandoned their original home http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
'anglo' does not mean 'english' in this context.
The world 'English' is derived from the name of a Germanic tribe, the Angles, which was a Germanic tribe just like the Saxons.
So Anglo-Saxon does NOT means 'English Saxon', it means that the population of what is now known as England originally came from people of both tribes moving there.
hellenes
11-03-2003, 17:57
Quote[/b] (Daevyll @ Nov. 03 2003,12:41)]
Quote[/b] (brent_james @ Oct. 21 2003,13:29)]
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Oct. 21 2003,10:32)]Yes that would be Saxony. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Wrongly called so, for Saxons now live in England. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Anglo-Saxons.
anglo=ENGLISH
the ENGLISH Saxons now live in england.
Its not like every single Saxon abandoned their original home http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
'anglo' does not mean 'english' in this context.
The world 'English' is derived from the name of a Germanic tribe, the Angles, which was a Germanic tribe just like the Saxons.
So Anglo-Saxon does NOT means 'English Saxon', it means that the population of what is now known as England originally came from people of both tribes moving there.
To add a bit in Greece we call the English (and mostly all the british because of the common language) Angli=english and England=Anglia the French=Galli and France=Gallia... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Hellenes
hellenes
11-03-2003, 17:57
Quote[/b] (Daevyll @ Nov. 03 2003,12:41)]
Quote[/b] (brent_james @ Oct. 21 2003,13:29)]
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Oct. 21 2003,10:32)]Yes that would be Saxony. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Wrongly called so, for Saxons now live in England. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Anglo-Saxons.
anglo=ENGLISH
the ENGLISH Saxons now live in england.
Its not like every single Saxon abandoned their original home http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
'anglo' does not mean 'english' in this context.
The world 'English' is derived from the name of a Germanic tribe, the Angles, which was a Germanic tribe just like the Saxons.
So Anglo-Saxon does NOT means 'English Saxon', it means that the population of what is now known as England originally came from people of both tribes moving there.
To add a bit in Greece we call the English (and mostly all the british because of the common language) Angli=english and England=Anglia the French=Galli and France=Gallia... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Hellenes
The Wizard
11-03-2003, 18:46
It seems the Greeks are a bit behind in times... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
hellenes
11-04-2003, 00:15
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Nov. 03 2003,17:46)]It seems the Greeks are a bit behind in times... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
But there is no other word... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
In greek if u say frenchman the word is Gallos and englishman (and british) Anglos England is Anglia (with the "i" spelled louder) and France Gallia (again with the "i" emphasized)...
Hellenes
Doug-Thompson
11-04-2003, 01:10
I have to disagree with one of these posts which says the men of Novogarod do nothing when AI-controlled. They happen to be doing very well in the game I'm playing now. Of course, the fact that I crushed the Byz for them may have something to do with their taking over Muscovy, Lithuania, and most of the other Russian provinces by 1200.
I think the AI does a better job of coping with rebellions now. One serious rebellion or civil war used to be fatal. In this same game, the French fought back from a severe civil war while fending off attacks from other factions. They were down to two provinces at one point, and now are back in the game.
HopAlongBunny
11-04-2003, 01:25
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Oct. 21 2003,14:53)]Also.. I tried a game with the Kievans but it crashed as soon as I tried to view the GA... any advice?
When you mod the game to add PoN, you cannot play GA. The icon will sit their and flash...don't touch it. Just play domination so you don't get tempted http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
It seems there is a way to add some GA goals for PoN (thank you hellenes) but I haven't attempted it yet...maybe after my final tomorrow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I can see why the Almos don't go anywhere against the Spanish. AUM are just no match for the hordes of Jinettes the Spanish build asap.
The Wizard
11-04-2003, 10:06
Yes i discovered that after playing as the Aragonese in MedMod 3.12 and clicking on the Swedish icon... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Brutal DLX
11-04-2003, 11:56
About the Almohads, my theory is they now have a harder time because they don't get an alliance with Egypt so easily anymore. I saw Egypt ally with Spain instead on a lot of occasions. This results in the Almos shifting a bigger stack of troops to Cyrenaica and building more troops initially which leaves them less money to buld the expensive gold mines and farm upgrades they used to rely on when preparing for an assault on the Spanish.
Also the initial Spanish crusade seems to happen earlier and has a lot more men in it, thus swinging the odds even more in favour of the Spanish. If the Almohads lose Cordoba, it's over for them.
As you can tell, this issue is one of my pet peeves. But I'll shut up now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif promise.
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Nov. 04 2003,04:56)]As you can tell, this issue is one of my pet peeves. But I'll shut up now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif promise.
That was quite an interesting point. Seriously.
But what I really would like to know is if all the Almohads became English when they invaded Cornwall of if some of them remained in Germany to repel the Greek huscarls ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
HopAlongBunny
11-05-2003, 05:37
Well, Egypt remained neutral and I throttled the Spanish. The Argonese were next into the pot and life was very good for King Elmo http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The French crusade jumped onto the English ships for a quick jaunt through Leon, followed by a full-scale English invasion of Castile.
Getting the troops to deal with the Spanish has left me poor and w/o so much as a rubber ducky to defend my shores http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
The King was last seen headed for Tunis shouting: The end is NEAR http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Brutal DLX
11-05-2003, 11:04
Quote[/b] (Jxrc @ Nov. 04 2003,11:02)]But what I really would like to know is if all the Almohads became English when they invaded Cornwall of if some of them remained in Germany to repel the Greek huscarls ?
This is a rather difficult and multi-layered question, which I'm not ready to answer. Yet. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
The Wizard
11-05-2003, 18:45
Greek huskarls http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
That would be correct if you consider Varangian Guardsmen Huskarls. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Is it just me or have the Byzantines become much more powerful with VI than they used to be? - I frequently used to see them lose Asia Minor, and Constantinople, and end up with nothing but a small realm in eatern Europe/western Russia. Now they seem hell-bent on conquering the world
In my current campaign (French, early), just before the Golden Horde arrived, the Byzants had conquered all of Asia Minor except Lesser Armenia (Egyptian), they'd taken the whole of Eastern Europe, except Novgorod, Finland, Hungary, Croatia, and Carpathia, and they'd seized provinces from both the HRE (almost the whole of the HRE's territory ), and the Italians (Genoa and Tuscany) - a bit worrying when my eastern frontier changed from understrength German Peasants led by ineffectual generals, to hordes of Kataphraktoi with 9 star Generals http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Yes - the Byzantines do seem to do less of the "exile to the Steppes" strategy they previously adopted. I like it - they are a worthy opponent, with their pre-existing infrastructure allowing them good units and their outstanding generals.
Byzantines have become a nightmare if they manage to hold to their starting position for a while.
I faced a nine stars commander with the V&V "famously brave" and "natural leader", with such a guy in control, Trebizond archer become a match even in hand-to-hand combat and Kharpatoi can be killed using missile units ...
Now, even when I do not have a common border with them, I always try to help anyone at war with the Byzantines by assassinating leaderes, conquering islands or destroying ships...
I know what you mean, jxrc - in the Almohad PBM campaign here on the org, I had a similar problem. Trebizonds and Slav Warriors cut through my AUM like butter
Last encounter with that kind of problem was last week-end. Playing as HRE, complete army of chivalric sergeants, chivalric men-at-arms and a two units high royal knights, leade with six stars. Attacking Greece defended by loads of Trebizon archers, about two units of slav warriors, one of byzantine infantry and one kharpatoi. The enemy general had eight stars.
Byzanties found a nice cosy hill and just waited. no move I made could make them abandon the position. Bored, I attacked uphill and got slaughtered in hand-to-hand combat. Trebizon archers and slav warriors lost quite a few men, the byz infantry and the kharpatoi unit lost almost none. I lots about 900 men while killing 200 ...
The Wizard
11-07-2003, 21:35
With such a general, such an amount of missile troops, and also some units with good charge ratings, it's not wise to attack uphill even if you can't get them down.
Did you try sending a unit with a chance to get out fast up the hill? Worked for me when I fought a Hungarian rebellion in Serbia... which means I sent a unit of Byzantine Cav up into a suicide mission to get the Hungarians out of their position... it worked and I slaughtered them in the valley http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
If you are past the early period and can get them, arbalesters are great against high command Byzantine armies. Their range seems to be beyond the reaction radius of AI units, so you can snipe at their best stuff with impunity. They cut through kat and VG armour with no problems too. Not very sporting, though.
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