It\'s not an expansion set, you pay it full

[Grilled Fubu]

Okay, apparently it's not a game expansion set, fellas. It's EA pulling out another "Sim City 3000 Unlimited" again. CA reworked the full game, add a couple of goodies and EA repackage it like something new.

In other words, it's will be an almost full-priced game ($35 most likely). It's not an expansion where you could get them $30 at most (basing from AOK:Conquerer MSRP).

If you ask me, I hate full-priced game that just only add some goodies from an existing recently released game. New features should be sold in an expansion set, not repackage it and sell it again for a full price. Anyone here likes to buy the same game twice without some reservations?

Hoping there will be discounts for owners of STW http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[Kurando]

I mentioned that earlier in Zaxon's thread. STW Warlord seems to be more of a "Shogun Gold Edition" than anything. But that having been said, who knows how they'll work it? When Sierra initially announced "Swat3, Elite Edition" with is massive improvements there was no mention of pre-existing owners, but low-and-behold a few months later (and much to everyones relief) they let owners know that the upgrade would be free to all parties that had purchased the previous version.

I don't want to buy the same game twice either, but at this point it's too early to tell what EA is planing. Whatever's the case I'm not prone to be negitive about it + I find it hard to reconcile that the announcement of STW Warloard is a bad thing per se. In fact, as long as we get the editors they are promising as part of the deal I'll be pretty damn happy.

[Methabaron]

Kurando, as far as I know there are only plans for release of map and scenario editors!, not for units! which I think is the most important one...

What are the most usefull tools MOD editors need?, I know we already got people making new maps so thats NOTHING NEW (as far as I know)... scenarios?, thats ok, but... is it or is it not a unit editor (graphics and game parameters) the real thing?

Metha


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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."

[Rob]

Metha, you are right to say that people are already making maps, but the editor is very difficult to work with.

It's like painting the Sistine Chapel with a kid's painting set http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

A proper map editor would be great. I've been working on a third-party editor but so far progress has been a little slow, so the news that CA are working on a new editor is very good news indeed.

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MizuRob Hojo
Honour to clan Takiyama

[Dark Phoenix]

If they did not release as a separate add-on or download they sure would get the whole community offside that I think it could really hurt EA and the developers. Even though Ea has a shocking reputation already I think it would be absolutely stupid. It would have to be one of the biggest marketing blunders if it is only a gold edition as Kurando said. I could be going over the top (which would be normal http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif )

Also it would be a bit hard for me to pay for another game which costs $100 Australian which is a bit much for a student.

Phoenix

[This message has been edited by Dark Phoenix (edited 12-19-2000).]

[Zaxxon]

Wether or not this is an add-on or Shogun 2, I still think the developers should have gone in a diferent direction. I mean when Shogun first came out it was a very fresh perspective. I can only think of one game (Lords of the Rising Sun) that dealt with 16th century Japan. But nearly 8 months later the whole Samurai thing is getting a bit old. I think by putting out what looks to be an add-on, it's only going to push the actual sequel back. I would rather have Total War: Rome or whatever in 8 months. Than have it in 16 months because they decided to make an add-on.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Where did you get the info that Warlord Edition (hereafter WE) will be a full-price STW Gold? Some news sites have said that, true, but the original press release is posted in that annoying all-caps thread (EVERYONE etc. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif) and it says nothing about this. Instead, it uses repeatedly the terms "add-on pack" and "expansion pack."

The release does have some in-depth explanations about what STW itself is, presumably to remind ignorant journalists of the game (after all, it's been almost half a year... sigh). These could be mistaken for an implication that the original game will be included in the package, but it doesn't say so explicitly, which leaves the matter in the "uncertain" category.

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"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[Ii Naomasa]

Technically, Lords of the Rising Sun was about 12th century Japan, but your point is well taken, Zaxxon-san. Good Samurai games have been few and far between, so not only was Shogun exciting to those of us who love the period, but also a very refreshing change from orcs and elves. Unfortunately, between a bunch of people realizing this and a horde more jumping on the immediately popularity the samurai games are getting, we're starting to see them come out of the wood-work (relative to the number before, that is). More games on the subject matter should be nice for those of us who love the culture and history, but ultimately, with so many people doing such work, the quality will suffer. Those who dislike Shogun's historically inaccurate features (most of which can understood for gameplay reasons) will most likely hate a good selection of what I've seen from upcoming games. And that's before we take a look at console games, where samurai have made even a more dramatic comeback.

I easilly see this as a SimCity Unlimited Situation. I almost literally fell out of my chair when I read what SCU's features were over SC3K (I never bothered getting either, so I wasn't directly affected, but reading that you'd have to pay $35-45 for what amounted to the same program with a few extra features that could've been released online really seemed ridiculous). This whole 'Gold' tradition which started a half dozen years ago or so has always irked me, especially when there's no attempt to offer discounted versions to those who were loyal enough to buy the original.

Gold versions may be better investments in most game company's eyes than add-ons. You make everyone lay down the full game price again, plus you're not vying for two spots on the limited game shelves. I applaud Microprose and the guys who do Rollercoaster Tycoon, though...they released cheap updates and because of such, managed to keep their two year old original product still in the top ten selling games lists.

Will it be worth the purchase price? I'll hold my judgement for when we get a final list of what's in it that won't be available to current users and the retail price. If its sold for a little more than an update, but less than a full game, it'll probably be worth it, especially since Shogun itself has been one of the few games I've purchased this year to stretch out every penny I paid for it...it still isn't off my harddrive...can't say that of a game or two I bought only a month or two ago. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif.

[Grilled Fubu]

Annsi, I read it from Avault and Gamespot. If it's an add-on of a game, they will usually say it clearly in their articles that it is an add-on. Even Gamespot said that it is an updated edition of STW. Have you seen Half-Life: Game of the Year Edition or Unreal Tournament: GOTYE in Finland?. STW:WE is just like that; basically it's the original game plus some enhancements (in the case of STW:WE there are some worthy enhancements like Strategic MP, but for Half Life :GOTYE they just add HL Mods that can be downloaded from the Internet for free). Like some people say it's better to give these enhancements in an add-on where you save $15 as opposed to buying Shogun 1.5 (some guys even want them free like what Sierra did with Ground Control add-on - I take it that this is too extreme and feel that CA must get its share too)

[Anssi Hakkinen]

I read both the Avault and Gamespot articles. They're pretty closely based on the press release in the other thread, which, I say again, doesn't contain any info on whether it's an expansion or a "new edition." Neither does the Avault article, actually. The Gamespot one talks about "the Warlord Edition of STW", but this looks very much like a misunderstanding based on the wording of the title.

Nobody but EA/CA/DT still knows whether it's a true add-on or STW Gold. And they haven't told us. Yet.

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"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[Grilled Fubu]

Keep in mind that typical expansion packs/ add-ons never have the full features of the original games in them. They're intended to run on top of the original game and not made to run on their own. What's talked about in Gamespot, Avault, IGN and so on is the making of a "Deluxe", "Unlimited", "Game of the Year", or "Gold" version of a game where you have the original full-version game plus some new features to make it worthy of a purchase. I don't think EA is dumb enough to publish an "expansion pack" that has full elements of the original game in it, can run by itself and giving it a price like any other add-ons in the market ($20-$30). That's where my interpretation coming from.

I'm fully aware of the expansion pack announcement in Totalwar.com. IMHO, EA still has the final say on how the game is going to be presented to customers, not Creative Assembly.

[Shiro]

The article at www.totalwar.com (http://www.totalwar.com) is confusing. It says, "Fans of the original Shogun ..." which suggests it's a new game. It also says, "The Mongol Invasion Expansion Pack builds upon the excitement of battle found in Shogun: Total War with the inclusion of Kublai Khan’s invading Mongol hordes." It builds? Does that mean it adds or re-works??? Plus it keeps refering to the game as an expansion pack.
-Shiro

[Ii Naomasa]

To me, the current 'official' name of Mongol Invasion Expansion Pack says an add-on along the lines of Cleopatra, any of the Roller Coaster Tycoon, or Opposing Forces, which means a $15-25 dollar product requiring the original game...which is the preferable way to go for most players here, I would think.

The earlier 'Shogun: Total War : Warlords Edition' is what G.F.'s original topic here, as it sounds like a 'gold' edition, which would mean paying for Shogun all over again. This is the slightly better approach market-wise for EA, but definitely not one to win over the old fans.

Given that the former is the one off the official site, does it mean that the marketing guys have heard our complaints and are at least producing both? Or is the totalwar.com site merely giving the developers description, while EA might be thinking otherwise? Hard to say. We could see both...it wasn't too long after Opposing Forces came out that Sierra started bundling them together in one box.

[Rob]

Yes, that seems sensible. Most games shops will probably sell the original and add-on pack together anyway. I doubt whether EA would make less money that way - people who don't have STW have to buy the original to play the expansion.

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MizuRob Hojo
Honour to clan Takiyama

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Grilled Fubu: I understood what you and I meant by "STW Gold" perfectly. What I wanted to know is, where exactly does it say that Warlord Edition (WE) / Mongol Invasion (MI) will be playable independetly, without a copy of the original STW we all know and love etc.? Avault doesn't say so; Gamespot does it only obliquely, and, as I said in my previous post, it looks like a misunderstanding.

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"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[Hoichi]

one of the blurbs (the one with the smarmy Q&A with "Steve" says it will include the full STW game. Sounds like a Gold edition to me.

Hoichi

[Grilled Fubu]

Annsi, I think Mongol Invasion expansion pack and the STW: Warlord Edition are two different products. AFAIK, Totalwar.com is the only site that reveals about the MI add-on as the rest of the gaming communities and 'zines acknowledge STW:WE as the coming product based on the information given by EA itself. I don't think EA press release wants to give out false information to the rest of communities while the "maverick", although it's CA official site for the game, goes by its way alone.

As whether the Warlord Edition will include the original game - it's clear that most sites did talk about it.
A) Gamesdomain (http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/news/3881.html) : "The re-release of the medieval Japanese real-time strategy game will feature a new mission, new units and improved AI."
B) IGNPc (http://pc.ign.com/news/29190.html) : "The original game will also be included in the package so that you can immerse yourself in the struggle for control over Japan."
C) AVault, CGO, UGO and a couple other sites used the prefab newsflash which lists: "The Warlord Edition builds upon Shogun: Total War with the inclusion of Kublai Khan's invading Mongol hordes, which try to conquer Japan"

So, STW:WE seems to be STW 1.5 or perhaps more like STW 1.75 because of the many promised enhancements to the original game.

C|Net's Gamecenter (http://www.gamecenter.com/News/Item/0,3,0-5110,00.html?st.gc.fd.gn.i) even say it as a "sequel". How can it be a sequel if it "includes the original game with a number....."? What a loony site. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif If you guys haven't stayed clear of Gamecenter, I advise to do it now - this site is like Daily Radar in terms of mediocrity (interestingly, Daily Radar (http://www.pcgamer.com/) also writes SWT:WE as a second version - I don't know if they mean sequel by "second version") http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif




[This message has been edited by Grilled Fubu (edited 12-20-2000).]

[horatio]

This must be where all the lawyers are...

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Kurando]

From what I hear the confusion likey stems from the fact that the forthcoming product has undergone several recent name changes; (the marketing Poindexders at EA obviously have their wires crossed somewhere).

However, Honour Day (Dec 18th) clearly puts forth that the product is an "Expansion Pack", and as I stated previously: we at the org are going by what the official site says RE the name and mandate of this forum.

[Methabaron]

Well guys, this seem one of the perfect moments where "The Shogun" needs to drop a word or two. Or at least to clarify this in the next Honour day article at the community website.

We can spend years here debating on this. Useless in my opinion because it will be just guessing.

If The Shogun does not answer FAST it will show again how untrue are his claims that he checks the forums on a regular basis (you can quote me on this if there is no clarification after tomorrow Friday, honour day)... and I am sure he does not do it as often as he claims and as often as he SHOULD...

Metha

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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect."

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Fubu, IGN seems to be the only site that directly states it's a "Gold" edition. As you can see from the EVERYONE thread (that headline will embarrass me for years to come http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif), the original press release talks at lenght about the original STW but doesn't say whether it's included in MI or not. The news sites have received a different release in name at least (WE vs. MI), but it doesn't seem to be very differently worded; no actual new information has been released. Misunderstanding is still a very real possibility. (Maybe I'll e-mail IGN and ask.)

About the title: the part of CA/DT that handles the Community Site is clearly distinct from Panache PR, the company that arranged the press release originally. There seems to be some kind of a disparity between their information about the name, but, at the moment, there's no way of knowing which name will be eventually be used. If either. Metha-san's right: all we can do is wait for the Shôgun to speak.

Edit-in update: and spoken he has! I put this up as a separate thread so it's easily accessible to everyone (is this a condemnable practice?).

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"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 12-21-2000).]