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ubertech
01-21-2002, 20:11
PART I

Both are pyramid schemes, were the current generation pays for the next. This is not necessarily a bad thing. In Social Security (US), you pay into the system while your parents take out. When you retire, you will be drawing of the funds of your children’s generation. It is a great system and has worked since the program’s introduction in 1935--except for the fact that current estimates project the fund’s bankruptcy by 2027. But it is this last bit that ultimately reduces it to a pyramid scheme.

The same works in the computer game industry. Where the profits of today’s titles fuel the next generation of games. This is why software piracy is such a problem and the reason I own every game I play! If you play bootleg copies, then you are only hurting the industry (and yourself), because without today’s purchase, the game creators will not have the money to make the next generation of games. This too is fine system, so when does it become a pyramid scheme?

To understand this, we need to recognize the difference between the manufacturers of material goods and the software developers who deal in ‘code’. Where a manufacture of a defective car must initiate a recall, software developers can patch. There is little chance for future upgrades of a material good once its sold, so the engineering standards are that much higher. You see this with console games, that up until now (think Xbox), could not be patched, so the developer had to make damn sure it was free from defect before it went gold. The computer game industry on the other hand, benefits (and suffers) from the fact that such defects can be addressed after the fact. So there are even more apt to release a title before it might be ready. This is especially true under today’s lucrative and highly competitive software market, driving titles to market under shorter development cycles.

So, we get products on store shelves that need updates almost as soon as they have been released. And for what its worth, this usually works out just fine, so long as the patches keep coming (think Windows and the endless stream of security patches out of Redmond). But at the same time, I cannot help but think that there is something fundamentally wrong in this. I mean, have we all been conditioned to accept the idea it is perfectly acceptable to expect your customers to do a job that should have been done by the developers in the first place, before they release the game? And I’m not just talking about patching the game; I’m talking about debugging it, and what a better way for a game company to get feedback from its public beta testers than through online forum (they should take the good with the bad, quid pro quo). It is now getting to the point that titles are being released in almost beta form (think WWII online), so I have to ask, who is paying me to troubleshoot their game for them and then apply fixes to it? But for better or worse, this is the current state of affairs and I doubt there is no going back now, nor no need to. But we, the consumers, should be ever vigilant against companies schlepping half backed products off on us for a quick dollar.

As I said before, for what it worth, this usually works out just fine, so long as the patches keep flowing. But at some point, the game creators invariably turn their attention to the next title. This doesn’t happen in a day, as the people and their resources working on the old title dwindle as they are ramped up on the new project. We the consumers demand this because we want better titles, and we wanted them yesterday! Now, at what point does the software developer finally abandon all work on the last title to focus on the next? There is no clear answer to this. But I do know that this decision is inversely proportional to demand. In other words, as long as the customer’s demands it, the game developers are apt to give it to them. This is the truth of the matter and no game creator is going to spend time (money) on something they don’t have to. I quote Jack from the film, Fight Club:

I'm a recall coordinator. My job is to apply the formula. It's a story problem. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now: do we initiate a recall?

Take the number of vehicles in the field, (A), and multiply it by the probable rate of failure, (B), then multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement, (C). A times B times C equals X...

If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

While this is satirical, it beautifully illustrates what’s more commonly referred to as, ‘the bottom line’. Is it really a leap of the imagination to see a software project manager somewhere saying, “Ok, I’ve got this many resources to throw at this problem, does the customer demand, and consequently profits, make it necessary?” But eventually, a software company must stop all work on a title and turn all there resources to the next title. This is just the way it goes. But never underestimate what customer demand can accomplish. If it affects their ‘bottom line’ you can bet your dollar (hint, hint) that they will jump.

So when does it exactly become a pyramid scheme? When the developers completely turn their attention to the next title while so many people are still playing the current, and their last title still sits on store shelves and is still being sold to unwitting newcomers. Don’t these people who buy the game now deserve the same support that everyone else has received, are they to have no say in the matter? So when the times comes, as it eventually does with all good titles, for the game’s creators to turn there attentions elsewhere, I do not think it would be too much to ask that they at least tell the current (and future) owners of that title, that they have done so, in no uncertain terms, no more support or effort will be given here. And it is on this on this day, that titles should be yanked from the shelves and chucked into the discount bin with a big fat warning label attached, explaining all this:

WARNING: The guy how coded this game has since doubled his income, and the company, having moved to bigger offices after the IPO, have forgotten about this title. (What do expect for $9.99).

Anything less, and it’s just a simple pyramid scheme.

So my question is this: Is Shogun: Total War, and Mongol Invasion, dead projects? Don’t wait for the translation; just answer the question! Yes or no? I would prefer the straight talk instead of innuendo and spin, and I see no reason stringing everyone along on false hope. As owners, our money has already paid for the answer.

PART II

The Internet has a long tradition of fostering free and open communication. It’s really the foundation of online public forums and without them, what? In most online forums, moderators approach their job, well, as moderators. They moderate with a very laze-fair attitude, and are loath to get involved in discussions themselves directly, preferring to intervene in the direst of circumstances.

I like this just fine, in a world increasing dosed on Prozac with the emphasis on feeling good, not being good, in its ever-constant struggle to avoid the uncomfortable, where even traditional news outlets are reduced to nothing more than canned corporate products, I find comfort in the fact we still have an Internet where communication hasn’t been washed with by the usual social and corporate filters and its not all about having a nice day.

And it’s with these heart-felt feelings that I stumbled into the totalwar.com forum, a forum unlike any forum I have ever encountered…Bazarro Forum. A façade of forum disguising what is nothing less than a company’s propaganda machine and where company spin-doctors are busy at work. Where the a moderator plays contributor, and the community’s love for the game blinds them to its problems and their attitude is nothing more than we’ve already had our fun, all the good stuff has already been said, so we wait for any newbies to assimilate to our fatalistic indifference, or leave.

Where I was expecting discourse, debate, and discussion I met, for the most post, with a community of indifference and a moderator who, as contributor, welds his power to his own personal advantage; closing, deleting, and editing them when they do not meet his questionable standards. Yet any criticism of this or the content of his posts or his actions as moderator is meet with accusations of a personal vendetta. Where there should only be impartial moderation, we get spin, damage control, and a company spokesperson. Instead of answering my criticisms, I am labeled a crusader and my prose mere rants, my behavior childish and sarcasm obscures the truth and where, in the end, I am to be a pariah. What better way than to discredit me.

So what might have started as a simple issue an unhappy customer with a company’s product exercising his rights as a consumer (we still have them) has snow balled into an issue greater far and more serious than any buggy game. Is it personal, but it’s not about any one person. I can only explain this with another analogy:

I am an American. I am a patriot in the truest sense. I love my country. I have served in our military; been sworn to defend our Constitution with my life if necessary, which I would give willing. I enjoy our affluence and our status as the worlds only Superpower. Yet, the country I love so dear is not above criticism and I would be the first to point out her many faults and defend anyone’s right to criticize her, no matter how much I disagreed with them. In direct opposition to this is those so blinded by their patriotism would say, “If you don’t America then you can get the hell the out.” So who’s the true patriot here? So I close with the question many of you have probably already asked yourself reading through this (if you made it this far):

But dude, it’s just a game? Sure, but in a place that throws around the word honor to point of kitsch, maybe honor is to be found somewhere else than on a simulated battlefield? Do we need to make a mockery of free and open communications and the ideals of online forums to defend nothing more than a mere game? I would hope not.

Erado San
01-21-2002, 21:03
To avoid any conflict of interest, as I am the moderator referred to here, I will not moderate any of Ubertech's posts. They're in the capable hands of my colleagues.

One thing, as you have a tendency to quote me out of context and twisting my words into something they're not, I will not allow you to quote me. If you do, I will edit them out.

Furthermore, I will not engage into any discussion with you. You're deaf to any explanations I'd give anyway.

01-21-2002, 21:32
Please don't come here to post moans and moans about Shogun etc...and only maons and long posts....



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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.kenchi.cjb.net/).
I'm from Malta, but I'm not a Malteser. http://terazawa.totalwar.org/malta_md_clr.gif
Visit my resource site here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org/)

Puzz3D
01-21-2002, 23:01
ubertech,

Yes they are finished. Both games are already heavily discounted. STW sells for $15, and WE for $20. CA/DT are working on the new game MTW. These games got better official support than many others I have purchased.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

solypsist
01-21-2002, 23:03
while this is a usual complaint post, it is one of the more eloquent ones i've seen in a while...

TakeshidaSo
01-22-2002, 00:22
DEFINE CONFLICT OF INTEREST
You give the appearance of rationality with the statement that you want to be fair. But then you said this:

Quote One thing, as you have a tendency to quote me out of context and twisting my words into something they're not, I will not allow you to quote me. If you do, I will edit them out.[/QUOTE]
That directly contradicts what you think your saying. If I'm not twisting things to the reasonable point of view.

You then continue to lay out your "Welcome to Shogun" diplomacy, which so irritated Ubertech, and others before him, in the first place.

You can say he twisted your words to misconstrue their meaning, but let's hear the evidence of that.

Since he is a newcomer here, and you are his first contact, how can he be said to have any tendencies?

I can say you are demeaning and dismissive to people, but that's because there is more proof than just this statement:

Quote Furthermore, I will not engage into any discussion with you. You're deaf to any explanations I'd give anyway.[/QUOTE]
You can say Ubertech has failed to grasp a particular point that you have made, but let's hear the evidence for that too.

If a complaint has no merit, then it's easy enough to deflate the complaint with an accurate response. If a complaint has merit, then you will see the frustration about it's accuracy, begin to show up in personal attacks that are really irrelevant. At least, that's what I see.

Shiro
01-22-2002, 00:58
Put those guns down boys, the cops are here.

Everyone must take it down a notch right now.

TakeshidaSo- Damnit! Why would you go and get involved in something like this. Your post adds nothing to this thread but fire.

Uber-
Please do not respond in an inflammatory manner to anyone.

Erado-sama-
I must issue the same warning to you as to not be hypocritical.

I find nothing worth editing out of Ubertech's post at this moment. He has indeed expressed his position in the words of Soly "eloquently." This has the looks of a wonderful flame war. That will not happen here! Watch it, everyone. I may very well close this but I believe in letting Uber express his opinion.

Erado San
01-22-2002, 01:40
I am not going to say anything at all.

ubertech
01-22-2002, 01:55
If it’s to only to be a matter of me expressing my opinion, then why even leave it open? This wasn’t an editorial. This is the advantage of a forum over a simple newsletter, a newspaper, or the 6 o-clock news. You can respond?

What happened to the Internet I used to know? Were criticism was welcomed, where flame wars were not always a bad thing, and were administrators weren’t concerned with policing post just to take it down a notch.

If someone has an issue with what I’ve said, I’d like to here, it is kind of the point. And while I hope it would be civil, can you really expect me to take such a position without being inflammatory? I mean this with all do respect, (though the fact I have to put up this disclaimer in front of this is ridiculous), that if this is the community standard…I had to remove this last bit for fear of offending sensibilities or inciting a riot.

So please, by all means, dismiss this post as nothing more than yet another complaint post, a long moan about the game. And miss the bigger issues here.

This is pretty much the last word I have to say on the matter (besides this thread), really everything I had to say on the matter; my ‘crusade’ is over. But I will praise what I find good and criticize what I think bad, all the while explaining just why I do, not with personal attack, but with oratory and rhetoric, and if I'm satirical or sarcastic, oh the horror…

Alas, I thank you for letting me have my say on the matter and thank you for your evenness Shiro, (though I think the site administrator might want to have a word with you in private). I’d like to contribute, and if it means ruffling some feathers, my apologies. On the other hand, lets not turn yet another forum into an urban sprawl populated with StarBucks and Gap Factory Outlets. But it’s your forum, so I digress.

Shiro
01-22-2002, 02:14
Sorry perhaps I wasn't quite clear. I want everyone to say what they have on their mind, but I want it to be said in a polite way. Everyone should say whatever comes to mind, whatever thought they happen to wake up with may be posted. That is indeed one of the glories of the internet. However, flame wars are a bad thing. They stop the flow of information and of ideas. Arguement is fine, flaming is not.

The most important policy of .org is simply "we're all friends here."

BSM_Skkzarg
01-22-2002, 02:37
Oh My... There are just some things I cannot remain silent on. So - here goes.

First - issues with the moderator (s) - I have no knowledge of them, and can only state that from personal experience I have not seen the types of actions described.

Second - The community being "Blind" in its adoration of Shogun. Well, this one I CAN comment on. We are NOT blind. In fact, had you been on the boards, for example, when WI/ME first became available, you would see that there was MUCH complaining over various issues, which led to discussion of the same. This discussion was viewed (but NOT influenced) by the developers at CA. Many - and I do mean MANY of the customer issues were then dealt with in the subsequent patch. Among them were the rout/no rout/honor issues, random reinforcement entrance, multiplayer unit costs, etc.
The 1.01 patch was solid, but it did have other weaknesses. And - given the lessening of resources available to support TW/WE/MI - CA made a decision to allow the community to assist with another patch. That - the 1.02 patch, was actually done more by the community than by CA. CA did help - but they, as you noted - had primarily gone on to other projects. They spent resources on the game that they could not guarantee would add additional revenue. The 1.02 patch did not cause a huge influx of sales for EA. No one thought it would. CA devoted their extremely limited resources in an attempt to better serve their customer.

Now - before you misunderstand - the 1.02 patch is NOT perfect. Nor is the game itself. Much more should have, in my opinion, been done. The question that I ask, as both a consumer and a professional who works with developers day in and day out, is the game worth what I paid for it. For me, it is. Although I would have liked to see some things changed, and some things added, I am satisfied that my money was well spent.

Allow another other example, if you will. One other game that I dearly cherish is called Sea Dogs. Set in a fictional archipeligo, the game is a 3d adventure where you sail around, complete missions, battle and sink ships and pirates, etc. The freedom of movement in the game is quite good, as is the interface and graphics. Yet, the game has its flaws. It is up to version 1.06 (6 patches) and still has issues. Some are minor, some are more serious. However, the developer has moved entirely off support of the program, and is devoted entirely to the sequel, Sea Dogs 2. Still.. I have enjoyed the game, and spent far more time playing it than I could reasonably expect for the price I paid.

As for this forum making you an outcast - again, I am not aware of what you are talking about. However, one thing you should realize is this forum, the Sword Dojo, is not just a msg board, it is also a community. Those who post here become known and respected by the tenor of their words, and by extension, their actions in game and multiplayer lobby. Because of this, a new arrival such as yourself, often has to demonstrate a certain level of maturity and coherence in their discussions. I am NOT saying that you have failed to do so, but am advising that you perhaps allow the community more of a chance to get to know you before you lash out in anger over the lack of warmth in your reception.

Above all else, retain the knowledge that your right to your opinion is respected, just as we expect you to respect our rights to view things differently. In doing so, while you may find that people do not agree with your view, you will still have their respect. Its all a matter of approach and perspective.

Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

ubertech
01-22-2002, 02:45
Thus the slippery slope begins and we must place such judgment into the hands of others. Let’s hope they apply an even-handed justice. Here’s my litmus test:

A neo-Nazi wants to stand on a soapbox and expose his anti-Semitism venom. Were would you have him do it?

A. Upper-Eastside NYC.
B. White-supremacist compound in Montana.
C. He shouldn’t to say it all.

Yes, of course, we are all friends here, as evidenced by a quick peruse through the board.

“...what a moron he is sometimes.”
“In a Jap game, we should have Jap babes”
“American's are; fat, lazy, inattentive, slovenly, demanding…”

It was heartwarming to find these, regardless of my personal opinion on them. Though the guy who sad a Jap game needs Jap babes was a moron and probably a fat and lazy American.

Catiline
01-22-2002, 02:55
Nobody is going to get the chance to take the bait

Any other new threads that continue in this vein will be closed out of hand. Debate the problems with STW with all means, but do it in a grown up fashion without the who's right is it to say what bollox. Reason on this occaision seems to have failed.

THREAD CLOSED

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Bis peccare in bello non licet