View Full Version : Military History of India
I don't think I've ever seen any topics here on Indian history, so I wrote one up on the military history of ancient India http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
There was a saying among the Arabs, "The Persians are famed for their archers, the Turks for their horsemen, and India for its armies."
India is one of the oldest civilizations on earth, going back more than 7,000 years. Although divided from the rest of Asia by the Himalayan mountains, India has for most of its history been fighting numerous and violent wars among itself. During its long history, there could be anywhere from 16 to more than a hundred kingdoms, all fighting each other, making and breaking alliances. In the harsh deserts to the northwest were the fierce Rajput (literally sons of kings) kingdoms, who fought on horseback and camelback. In central India were mighty kingdoms descended from the Aryan invaders who invaded India around 1500 BC. In the jungles to the south were other large and formidable kingdoms, more ancient than the Aryan ones, the original inhabitants of India. In the Deccan Plateau, where the Kingdoms of the north and the south met, were other smaller nations, but with some of the fiercest fighters on the subcontinent. To the east were the kingdoms of Bengal and Assam, to the north was the feared kingdom of Nepal.
All Indian armies had four divisions, the Caturangabala. These divisions were the elephant, chariot, cavalry, and infantry. The infantry included the archers.
Warfare in ancient India centered around the chariot. Indian chariots were nothing like the light, sleek chariots of Egypt. They were massive, made of wood and iron, and intricately decorated in gold. They had four wheels, and typically held two men-the charioteer, and an archer who also had a weapon for hand to hand combat. This archer, standing on the chariot, would be a good six or more feet off the ground, giving him a significant advantage over enemy infantry. Some chariots held more men, the largest could hold seven men. Indian chariots were so large and heavy that they required four to six horses to pull them. Unlike Egyptian chariots, which moved quickly and fired arrows into the enemy ranks, Indian chariots often charged right into melee battle. They crushed enemy soldiers under their wheels, trampled them under the horses, all while the soldier(s) on the chariot fired arrows into them, or fought it out hand to hand.
No description of India’s ancient military is complete without mentioning the elephant. India was the first nation to use the elephant in battle (~1500BC) and the last nation to stop using it in battle (1800’s AD). Wars were frequently fought over territories that had a great deal of elephants. Elephants from the tip of south India and Sri Lanka were the most prized as they were considered the fiercest in battle. Often times, a king’s wealth was measured in how many elephants he owned. A single Indian prince might own more elephants than all of Carthage. According to Kautilya, the army of the Indian emperor Chandragupta Maurya had more than 21,000 elephants. War elephants typically were heavily armored. They had a castle like structure on their back where several warriors and a mahout, who guided the elephant, would be housed. The number of warriors varied anywhere from one to six warriors, and would be armed with an arsenal of weapons, bows and arrows, long lances, javelins, tridents, and a variety of polearms. The elephants themselves had long daggers or swords, sometimes several feet long, attached to their tusks.
The way in elephants were used in battle varied widely as well. One common tactic, used by Porus at the Hydaspes, was to place the elephants a distance apart, anywhere from 40 to 100 feet. These elephants would act like mobile fortresses, where the rest of the army could rally around. Another common tactic, probably the most dangerous and effective one, was to use the elephants to directly assault enemy lines. The elephants would be arranged in a wall formation, and be heavily armored in iron or steel from head to foot. Long steel swords, often coated with poison, would be attached to their tusks. The mahouts would then drive them forward in a coordinated charge, wreaking havoc in enemy ranks. Archers or lancers on top of the elephants would pick off enemy soldiers as well. One king even went as far as to train his elephants to swing heavy iron balls on chains with their trunks. The very sight of a wall of heavily armored elephants charging, whirling huge iron balls with their trunks, their tusks tipped with poisoned swords, the soldiers on the elephant wielding enormous lances, would often cause the enemy to break ranks and flee.
The cavalry in Indian armies were usually all or nothing. Those that used cavalry were some of the finest horsemen in the world. Those kingdoms that used cavalry only as support troops usually did not have noteworthy cavalry. Probably the finest horsemen in India were the Rajputs, from the deserts of the northwest. The Rajput cavalry was extremely skilled, and man for man, was more than a match for the Arab and Mughal cavalry, as they proved several times. They were lightly armored, and moved extremely swiftly. Armed with a light curved sword and a small circular shield, they could charge, circle, flank, and fight with incredible speed. Many carried bows and arrows, and were expert archers. The Rajput army was almost entirely composed of cavalry, and were powerful enough that they were able to keep the Muslim forces in check for many years. In the other armies of India cavalry were also used, sometimes in large numbers, but rarely were they equipped with bows and arrows. Their role was either to protect the elephants and chariots, or to charge into melee battle.
The bulk of the Indian army, and most other armies in the world, were the infantry, or foot soldiers. The infantry were equipped with a huge variety of weapons, which differed hugely across India. Probably the most common weapon was the sword, but even this came in hundreds of shapes across India. Indian archers used a bow similar to the English longbow, in that it was as tall as the person using it. However, Indian bows were also recurved. These bows were famous for their great power and range. Armies in India were typically larger than those of Europe. It was common to see armies of hundreds of thousands fighting on the battlefield, even thought the kingdoms themselves might be small in size. As infantry formed the majority of the army, a typical battle would look like a sea of infantry and cavalry fighting, while the chariots and elephants stood out.
India was one of the first nations to implement tactics, divisions, and formations. Armies did not simply rush out onto the battlefield; there were commanders who carefully put their massive armies in intricate formations. Some formations were: Chakra (wheel) Vyuha, Suchi (needle) Vyuha, Chayana (hawk) Vyuha and Mala (garland), and Garuda (eagle). Another one I read about recently was the lotus formation, where the archers would be on the inside, and the infantry and cavalry would be arranged like a lotus flower, protecting them.
Their armor differed greatly as well. Some kingdoms, especially in south India wore no armor, because of the extreme heat. Others wore tough sturdy armor, made of interlocking iron, steel, and leather plates. Many warriors wore no armor, but instead wore silk clothing. This actually worked to block arrows, which couldn’t penetrate the silk fibers.
Ancient India has been home to many unique weapons. The world’s first all steel bow was made in India. Some other weapons from the subcontinent are the famous kukri knife, the bagh nakh, or tiger claw weapon used by assassins, tridents, the long handled mace, swords, axes, and spears of all shapes and sizes.
Some pictures:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-10/455193/chariot.jpg
http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0202/mahabattle.jpg
http://www.ips.uiuc.edu/ific/xborders/mahabharata.jpg
http://www.webcom.com/~ara/col/art/wheel.jpg
http://playsthething.homestead.com/files/conchshell_blowing.jpg
These are from the Battle of Hydaspes:
http://joseph_berrigan.tripod.com//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/hydaspeselephant.gif
http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/Images/2111/hydaspes.jpg
I think this is from the campaigns of either the Mauryan or Gupta dynasty:
http://www.handicrafts-antiques.com/oi3.gif
Rajput cavalry:
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/war_kings.gif
These are in an Indian festival, but their headpieces and armor are similar to those in ancient India's war elephants:
http://www.nine-dragons.com/images/india/elephantsprocessionsopt.jpg
An ambassador in the earliest Indian civilization, the Indus Valley one:
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/war_ancient_India2.JPG
Some more pics:
Sikh warriors:
http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/warriors/udaysingh/uady1.jpg
http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/warriors/BidhiChand/bidhi2.jpg
http://www.elite.net/~gurpal/bahibac.jpg
This is a reenactment of Kshatriya warriors in ancient India.
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/dharma_yuddha.jpg
So in ancient India, the role of infantry was clearly not lacking in honor and prestige. Of course only the elites and royalty would have armor like that, inlaid with gold.
http://home-4.worldonline.nl/~t543201/web-mongol/mongol-images/mongol-jungle.jpg
I think this is a picture of the Mongol invasion of Burma (which was then a very 'Indianized' kingdom). The Mongols won, as usual, but still a nice pic.
This is an authentic suit of armor worn by elephants in ancient India. Right now I think its in a museum in London or something.
As you can see, Indian war elephants were very heavily armored. Even their ears, around their eyes, and their trunk were covered in armor http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/elephantarmour.jpg
Here are some more pics:
http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/panipat.jpg
These are Rajput horsemen. The Rajputs, from the harsh deserts of Rajasthan, were some of the fiercest warriors in India. Their armies were composed of almost all cavalry, both camels and horses. They were fanatical Hindus, and fought the Arabs and the Mughals for hundreds of years. The Rajputs were recklessly brave in battle, and never surrendered or fled. When they knew that defeat was imminent, they would put on saffron robes and charge into certain death.
The Greeks called them the bravest warriors they ever met.
The Arabs said “Their character shines brightest in adversity. Their soldiers (Rajputs) know to what it is to flee from the fields of battle, but when the success of the combat becomes doubtful, they dismount from their horses and throw away their lives in payment of the debt of valor.”
A European traveller to India said "The Rajputs embrace each other when on the battlefields as if resolved to die.” The Spartans, as is well known, dressed their hair on such occasions. It is well known that when a Rajput becomes desperate, he puts on garments of saffron color, which act, in technical language, is called kesrian kasumal karna (donning saffron robes)."
The Rajputs would fight against all odds, but when there was no chance of victory, tradition demanded that jauhar or mass suicide take place. The women and children commited suicide by burning themselves to death on a massive funeral pyre. The warriors would don saffron robes and go fight to the death. On some occasions 20,000 Rajputs commited jauhar. But not a single warrior surrendered or fled.
Here are some traditional paintings and carvings of warfare in ancient India:
http://www.artoflegendindia.com/productimages/PFA002.jpg
Elephant fighting a cavalryman.
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/army.jpg
Army marching. The quality of this pic is bad, but it shows the four divisions of the Indian army, cavalry, infantry, chariot, and elephant.
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/ship_ancient_India.jpg
India was very advanced in naval warfare. The history of shipbuilding in India goes back 5000 years. With ships loaded with arsenals of weapons, the Chola empire in south India conquered lands as far away as Java and Sumatra.
http://playsthething.homestead.com/files/gita-2.jpg
This is a painting of a battle in ancient India. To the right of that battlefield, there are two tight Garuda Vyuha (Eagle Formations) one behind the other, both facing left. To the bottom left, there is a Chakra Vyuha (Wheel or Disc Formation). Behind it are some cavalry in a tight wall formation. In the back of the battle field I see a gaggle of troops, but I can distinguish a Padma Vyuha (Lotus formation). And in the farthest back ranks of both the armies on the left and on the right, I see war elephants in a very tight line formation, they would probably have been used in a direct assault on enemy lines.
Indian weapons:
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianswordsspearsaxes.jpg
http://hindunet.org/saraswati/centralindfiaandamans.jpg
http://hindunet.org/saraswati/assam.jpg
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/nepal.jpg
http://hindunet.org/saraswati/mahratthas.jpg
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/southindia.jpg
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/rajputs.jpg
Indian armor:
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/armourindian1.jpg
Indian shields:
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/dhal.jpg
This took a while to do, so please post comments http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
WOW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
Thanks for posting all that. I must admit that sadly India is not one of the nations I think of when discussing military history, just glad you brought this to my attention.
By the way, are you form India? Just curious.
Thanks for posting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I think one reason most people don't think of India as a martial country is because they think of India, they think of people like Gandhi, who were pacifists.
But India has had a very martial history, the land was dominated for thousands of years by the martial Kshatriya spirit. In fact, the religion of India was once atheistic, and instead centered around 'shastra pujan' or the worship of weapons.
And yes, I am Indian http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Mega Dux Bob
10-23-2003, 23:28
Sounds like India would be a good setting for a TW game.
Leet Eriksson
10-24-2003, 00:51
Excellent post,actually i was reading some indian sites and saw an indian movie about warfare in ancient india,but it never actually came to my mind,becuase these forums are all about the armies set in the STW and MTW time periods.
Quote[/b] ]The Arabs said “Their character shines brightest in adversity. Their soldiers (Rajputs) know to what it is to flee from the fields of battle, but when the success of the combat becomes doubtful, they dismount from their horses and throw away their lives in payment of the debt of valor.”
I remember reading that by an arab historian in the ghaznavid era,can't remember his name though.
Greetings folks
Man I am impressed by this fantastic post Rajput. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Very nice reading. Thanks very much for posting. I returned from Pakistan and have bought a few new books on the Mughals. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif Would you consider them as Indian ? Personally I would and what's more they actually ruled along the same time period as MTW (and longer) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif so I think it's time I got round to scanning some images and posting some articles on them too ?
I have watched the movie Mahabharata and proudly own the soundtrack. I listen to it in the morning, brilliant music. I love the bansuri (shakuhachi type flute) very meditative, deep and insightful. Just what you need before beginning your day. Also a very good film.
Cheers All http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Yes, having India in a Total War has always been a dream of mine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Sinan, my Pakistani Bhai http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Of course I would consider the Mughals Indians. They were the first ones since the Mauryan empire that managed to unify India. They had many great and just rulers, like Akbar. Not to mention that they built what is now the most recognizable structure in India- the Taj Mahal.
They also revolutionized Indian warfare, by making heavy use of artillery. Mughals were very innovative, they often used to mount cannons on elephants and camels.
Like this one:
http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/warriors/HariNalwa/Shutar.jpg
Namaste Bhai Jan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Indeed the Mughals (like the Ottomans) made early and good use of gunpowder weapons. I'll scan some stuff as soon as possible. In fact I got a book called the Badshnamah it's got loads of paintings.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Wow all news to me and I must say this would be a great tw I mean they used all sorts of units like you saud they were known for there armies it seams to me after reading these post that they had a rounded cav devision with elephants chariots camels wow very cool info. lol i would of never thought of putting artillery on camels kinda like a drive by shooting back then thanx http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Brutal DLX
10-24-2003, 13:15
Thanks for the post as well as the nice pics. However I am aware that invaders generally fared poorly when they dared to set foot into India. It was a very dangerous and martial country to pick a fight with at that time, as you said.
Perhaps there will be an Ancient: Total War soometime in the future, which is a dream of mine. Perhaps spanning all of Eurasia, maybe America too, hints of shipping links between the continents exist. Just imagine Indians, Mongols, early Chinese, Egyptians, Sumerians and Hittites, Olmeks and Mochica and many more struggle for everlasting glory and fame.
Great post Rajput.
I was wondering if their were any specific anti-elephant units, weapons, or tactics. Also, with all those elephants flying around did they ever go head to head? That would be a screen shot
I fixed some pics that weren't showing up.
Quote[/b] ]Perhaps there will be an Ancient: Total War soometime in the future, which is a dream of mine. Perhaps spanning all of Eurasia, maybe America too, hints of shipping links between the continents exist. Just imagine Indians, Mongols, early Chinese, Egyptians, Sumerians and Hittites, Olmeks and Mochica and many more struggle for everlasting glory and fame.
*hyperventilates* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
That is a great idea, and if they ever made a game like that I would buy it in a second http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
DojoRat, there were a lot of anti-elephant tactics, and then there were anti-anti-elephant tactics, as armies continually adapted to each other. For example, elephants were often used as battering rams against castles. Eventually castles were developed with huge spikes coming out of them. In response to this, steel battering rams were attached to elephants heads to protect them. In response to this, castle structures were altered so that men could pour molten lead on the elephants' backs. So full body elephant armor was developed.
One of the coolest anti-elephant tactics IMO were the "tusked cavalry." Cavalrymen would fit masks on their horses that looked like elephant heads, complete with trunk, tusks, and all. War elephants would refuse to attack these horses, because elephants will not attack their young. The elephants would usually stampede back on their own army.
And elephants did go head to head http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
http://www.bangkoksite.com/AyutthayaPage/Fighting1.JPG
http://gitai.com/tilak/work/images/sam7.jpg
ha lol thats a cool idea instead of flaming bacon in rtw we could have horse elephants lol
Leet Eriksson
10-25-2003, 14:17
to friend Rajput,
the taj mahal if i recall correctly was built by Shah Jahan,who came after Akbar(i think).
faisal, you are absolutely right. I worded it badly, I didn't mean that Akbar built the Taj Mahal, I meant that Akbar was a famous Mughal king, and that the Mughals built the Taj Mahal. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
And THIS people is why I love The Org, so many people from across the globe
Did they have an Infantry answer to the Elephants?
Also, did armies center themselves around Elephants? Or did it vary from prince to prince?
Thank you spmetla http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] ]Did they have an Infantry answer to the Elephants?
As elephants were typically covered in well made steel armor, they were difficult to kill by infantry. So most infantry focused on routing the elephant instead of trying to kill it. Soldiers used lances to stab at its sensitive spots from a distance, or maces to hit the underside of the elephant. Archers shot the mahouts and the other warriors (there could be up to six) on top of the elephant. Chakras were thrown at the elephant’s trunk or at the riders as well. These were ideal weapons for infantry because unlike bows they could be easily carried and used at close range.
A chakram.
http://www.discgolfassoc.com/images/chakram2.jpg
Quote[/b] ]Also, did armies center themselves around Elephants? Or did it vary from prince to prince?
It did vary to some extent, but most armies centered on either the chariot or the elephant. Both positions were equally highly esteemed, and in fact the enemy prince would most likely be on the most ornate chariot, or on the top of the biggest, best armored elephant.
Just saw this thread, great job Rajput, from some time now I wanted to take a more profound look in the chinese and indian military. This gives me a good starting point for the second http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Glad to know it was of some use, pr Fire http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Here's a pic of an Indian archer that I found. India had a very strong archery tradition. The traditional Indian bow was the size of an English longbow, and was also recurved. This gave it great power and range.
http://www.iskconboston.org/images/events/rama.jpg
Here is an article on a weapon unique to the Hindus, the steel bow. These were not as powerful as the traditional bows, (made of steel, horn, and bamboo) but emerged better from storage, and as they were made of steel, lasted longer.
Quote[/b] ]Throughout the ages experiments with steel as a bow material have been made in various countries. The Indians were the first people, I believe, to have overcome the problems presented by steel and produced a weapon, which, while it may not have had the cast and range of its predecessor, the composite bow, was nevertheless a decidedly workable weapon.
India has always shown great inventiveness with weapons, especially during her early historic period (circa 269-237 B.C.), and many of the arms she produced were entirely of metal. (There was even an all-metal arrow called Naraca.) Thus it is not surprising that the bow should eventually be produced in this medium.
Why were they made? There was a well-organised army structure in India at a very early date and large, well-maintained armouries were kept by the various rulers. The steel bow would have made an ideal munition arm. Properly greased, it would have emerged better from storage than any other type of bow, and could have been used immediately. That is one reason which can be offered.
V. R. Dikshitar, in his book, says that "steel was the new invention and the old things were cast aside for the new". He is probably referring to the Mughal period, when the steel bow was widely used. J. S. Lee, in his article dealing with steel bows, observes that the composite bow went out of favour about Shah Jehan's time (A.D. 1650). The Mughal period began circa A.D. 1526, so that this period seems to be a transitional one from composite to steel.
However, looking further back into history, we read in the Visnudharmottara that bows are made of metal, horn and bamboo. The Agnipurana also mentions steel, horn and wood as bow materials and says of the steel bow that "It must have a small grip, and its middle portion is said to resemble the eyebrow of a lady. It is usually made in parts, or together, and inlaid with gold".
An approximate dating for the Puranas is during the first millennium A.D., but iron and steel were being made in India in the 4th century B.C. (although iron was a comparatively rare metal until Mauryan times 269-237 B.C.). SO it is reasonable to suppose that a steel bow existed in one form or another during this time. Confirmation of this would be difficult, however, since few, if any, specimens of these bows can be dated with any certainty earlier than the Mughal period .
There is a fair amount of evidence that they were extensively used in warfare. Indeed they would be of little use for anything else, not having the cast and range for the hunt or for sport. Several of the Mughal miniature paintings show mounted archers in battle scenes using this bow, and there is a long tapestry in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London which also shows it in use.
Whether the final form, with all its variations, was purely Indian will perhaps never be known. They are usually labelled Indo-Persian, and undoubtedly there could have been some influence from the Persian craftsmen and armourers who worked at the Mughal Court. The Persians are said to have used a straight steel bow for exercising and, if this were the case, the idea would not have been new to them. They themselves are not known to have used a steel bow for war.
To say that the steel bow was a close copy of the composite is true, yet certain original features can be observed immediately. The bow never had the extreme recurvature that the composite had in its original state, but rather takes the shape of a composite that has "opened out" to some extent. Also, the recurvature is mostly of a design which could not be reproduced in a wood/horn/sinew combination.
Teutonic Knight
10-30-2003, 19:18
Could you kill an elephant with a (or many) well placed arrow(s)? Basically what I'm asking is, were there any bows at the time that could penetrate both the elephants armour and its skin?
They were good at archery too?? Tell me is ther one thing they didnt master?
Orda Khan
10-31-2003, 21:04
As an admirer of Indian culture I must thank you Rajput for a very interesting read.....and yes It would make a tremendous Total War http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
.....Orda
Thank you, Orda Khan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Teutonic Knight, there are legends... of warriors who shot a single arrow and in a flash of thunder brought down a fully armored war elephant...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Realistically though, I don't think it was possible. A well shot arrow might penetrate the armor and the skin (Indian bows were powerful enough), but would not be enough to kill the elephant.
Even the Mongols, with their superpowerful bows, could not kill the elephants they encountered when they fought the kings of Burma and Bengal (which were then two powerful kingdoms in northeast India). They did make the elephants panic and run though, knocking off the riders, and trampling back on their own army.
Indian archers were mainly used like archers elsewhere in the world, mainly against infantry, also to shoot the riders off chariots, cavalry, and elephants.
Jeebus_Frist
10-31-2003, 21:31
I have hoped for some time that the next Total War would focus on the Orient including China, India, and Persia. It is a thought close to my heart. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Excellent post Rajput.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Leet Eriksson
10-31-2003, 21:44
The arabs only knew a few solutions to counter elephants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif from past experience when battling the persians they usually used pikes to stab the elephant in the eye,also camels could scare elephants much like it scared horses.
The indians however had a lot of tactics,and from rajputs posts,they are pretty innovative toowhere elephants common in indian armies(where they also used extensively)?
Teutonic Knight
11-01-2003, 02:49
I see, so they object was not mainly to kill the elephant, but to scare it in the other direction. I guess that makes sense. Were archers organized in formations like european archers or were they just freelance on the battlefield? Sorry this just is very interesting to me because I don't think I've ever heard anything about Indian bowmanship...
How did ballists and catapults fare against elephants, I'd think one well placed shot from a ballista could take down an elephant. And a gaint rock hitting in should kill it as well.
Thanks Jeebus_Frist http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif (nice sig BTW)
Quote[/b] ]I see, so they object was not mainly to kill the elephant, but to scare it in the other direction. I guess that makes sense. Were archers organized in formations like european archers or were they just freelance on the battlefield? Sorry this just is very interesting to me because I don't think I've ever heard anything about Indian bowmanship...
No prob http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Indian archers did fight in formation, but they were not as tight or as disciplined as the longbowmen of England. One reason for this is that the bow and arrow was open to use by all the castes, not just the Kshatriya or warrior class. The Kshatriya were well trained, and would fight in strict ranks to the death. But those who were not trained since birth in warfare might break rank.
The most esteemed bowmen were those mounted on chariots. The pic I posted was of a chariot archer. These soldiers did not fight in ranks, each chariot went out alone, protected by a force of infantry and cavalry. They were a force to be reckoned with, but because there was only a single chariot, they were not as strong as they would have been in they fought in ranks.
For this reason, the powerful Indian bows were not used to their full capability. If archers fought in tight ranks, they might have been almost unstoppable. But the ranks of foot archers were loose, and chariot archers fought singly.
Quote[/b] ]How did ballists and catapults fare against elephants, I'd think one well placed shot from a ballista could take down an elephant. And a gaint rock hitting in should kill it as well.
Glad you asked this, I forgot to mention it.
Siege weapons were used to great effect in ancient Indian armies. Catapult and ballista-like weapons were used, as well as a large number of incendiary weapons. Racks which fired hundreds of flaming arrows were used, as well as devices that would hurl flaming bombs. It was the Chinese that invented gunpowder, but the Indians were using explosive chemicals long before.
These weapons were very effective against elephants, and could probably drop them in a single hit. They were also effective against any other soldier in their way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
A lot of people asking about what counters elephants, so...
Elephants were bad against:
Incendiary weapons (crushed elephant and riders)
Infantry with spears. (aimed for sensitive spots, like the eye.)
Infantry with maces. (tried to hit the underbelly.)
Infantry with short ranged weapons (such as chakras, hit the trunk or the riders)
Tusked cavalry (scared the elephant into stampeding)
Archers (Shot mahout and riders, hit sensitive spots)
Other elephants (fought it out, head to head)
Elephants were good against:
Most infantry that were not trained to counter them.
Most cavalry (horses scared of elephants, some elephants had blades attached to their trunks, and were trained to hamstring horses)
Chariots (the horses panicked at the sight of the elephants, even more so because they were tied down. Also chariots were not that maneuverable. The elephant could smash the wheels, and the platform of the chariot.)
Archers (if the elephants got into range, the archers were pretty much doomed)
Hey Rajput right now Im doin the 1800s in class and when we were lookin at the British settlements in India geusse who was on the borders? The mighty family of the Rajputs
Sweet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Really great to see that some schools are teaching Indian history.
IIRC, the British were never able to conquer the Rajputs. Later they were indirectly ruled by the British, but were considered an independent state.
Cool news http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I noticed that some of the swords have a very thick *whatever you call it you hold the sword there', what is the use of that? Man this whole post makes me drool, and yes, this has total war written all over it. I hope one of the modders read this.
I hope more that one of the DEVs reads it.
Quote[/b] (Fragony @ Nov. 12 2003,07:42)]I noticed that some of the swords have a very thick *whatever you call it you hold the sword there', what is the use of that?
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh I got it The sword with the big handle(?) are fistblades, the arm was actually IN the sword How frigging cool is that
Ithaskar Fëarindel
11-13-2003, 17:49
It could be modded into the game, much like Barocca is doing with STW. I'll hold my hands up though, I have one version of the game and it has my own mod-in-the-works on it.
I'm sure if you can get maps of the region it could be done.
Fragony, You mean this thing? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
http://www.syndicatearmoury.com/daggers-bayonets/gifs/sdk1127.jpg
Its called a katar, a weapon unique to the subcontinent, and IMO one of the more cool-looking Indian weapons. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Quote[/b] ]Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh I got it The sword with the big handle(?) are fistblades, the arm was actually IN the sword How frigging cool is that
Yes, you are absolutely right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif The guy holding it would hold the horizontal bars and use it to punch and slash. Thats why its also called a "punch dagger". Usually they would be used in pairs, someone would hold one in each hand.
Quote[/b] ]I'm sure if you can get maps of the region it could be done.
I can find some maps easily enough, but I'm not that good at modding. If someone is willing to mod it when RTW comes out, you have my deepest respects http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
(Also I hope to learn how to mod by then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)
No I didn't mean the katar (I actually own one of these), You gave some links in your post, on the first you see a rather long blade, with a very broad *whatever you call it*. The handle was IN the blade, making it one with the arm. While I doubt it is a very effective weapon, it is COOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
might as well be more specifichttp://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianswordsspearsaxes.jpg
the second sword on the left
ohhhh, ok my mistake http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I see what you are talking about now, but I must admit I have no clue what that thing is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
You're probably right though. The handle was built into the blade, and the big black hilt thing was protection for the hand and forearm. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Fragony, if you're still interested, found out some more about the weapon http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Its called a Pata or gauntlet sword. It had a long, slim blade, and a steel gauntlet to protect the hand and forearm. The blade was used to slash and stab, and reportedly was powerful enough to cut off a bull's head.
It was used either on foot or on horseback. On horseback, it was effectively used like a lance.
A Pata
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-10/455193/pata2.JPG
The handle. You would hold the bar under the gauntlet, which would protect the hand and forearm.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-10/455193/Pata.JPG
Rajput, how well equiped organized and disciplined were Indian infantry? I know it varied but seeing as the Indians are famous for armies I imagine well drilled armored soldiers. Were infantry just the rag tag peasants there to support the chariots and elephants?
What about Indian ships? Were they primarily merchantships or did Princes' have the organization to create actual effective navies? And then how were these ships manned and equiped.
And remeber, whether you like it or not your duty is now to answer all historical questions pertaining to India.
Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-10-2003, 14:54
Fantastic posts, Rajput http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Informative and majestic at the same time... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Relating to BrutalDLX:
Quote[/b] ]Perhaps there will be an Ancient: Total War soometime in the future, which is a dream of mine. Perhaps spanning all of Eurasia, maybe America too, hints of shipping links between the continents exist. Just imagine Indians, Mongols, early Chinese, Egyptians, Sumerians and Hittites, Olmeks and Mochica and many more struggle for everlasting glory and fame.
That was my dream game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
How did you guess??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
But unfortunatelly it would take 15 years to complete with CA's perfectionism... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
Although it would be AWESOME, WONDERFULL, FANTASTIC, etc... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
That is one cool weapon Rajput. I do kinda question it's effectiveness as an infantry weapon, but for a mounted warrior I am sure it worked wonderfully. But I can imagine that a lot of people broke their arm using it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Still interested? hell yeah ^^ I noticed another very exotic weapon
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/mahratthas.jpg
number 477. I bet it is named after a tiger, it looks like a claw. Some weapons are so strange, I have no idea how they would be used 476, it looks more like an erotic toy then a weapon, maybe poisened?
King James I
12-18-2003, 08:08
Hey guys I've been trying to find out about the Indian and other Asian military forces for some time now and when I saw this thread I was happy that I could find some more info. Anyway I myself have found a bit more about the Indian military history including weapons, armour, tactics, etc. Here are some things I have found so far.
Weapons and Armour
Varman is the Sanskrit word most often used in historical and epic writings to refer to the various sorts of body armour, as opposed to shields.
Chahar-aina: Also called "four mirror" body armour, this armour consisted of four metal plates strapped around the wearer's body: one on the back, one on the chest, and one on each side under the arms. Chahar-aina was usually worn to augment another suit of armour, often in conjunction with the khulah-kud (helmet), dastana (bracers), and shield.
Chain mail: This was so commonly encountered in India, that several weapons evolved with the express purpose of piercing it. A suit of chain mail often included both a full-length tunic and mail trousers. Chain mail is a bit more expensive in
Dastana: These were forearm guards, also called bazubands, typically a pair of hinged plates that fully encircled the arm with mittens of cloth or mail to protect the hands. Dastana were often worn with Chahar-aina; a pair of them improves a wearer's armour class by one place.
Dhenuka: This was a full set of armour made from the hide, hooves, and horn of an Indian rhinoceros. Such armour was of somewhat higher quality than regular hide armour. Dhenuka could also be made from the components of other beasts with thick natural protection, such as elephants, water buffaloes, or even crocodiles. Dhenuka would definitely be popular in regions where other armour components are scarce, but where the creatures it is made from are common. It might also be used by characters who are prohibited from wearing cowhide or metal, or by those who are required to wear the skin of the beast in question.
Helmets: A great variety of helmets can be found in an Indian milieu.
Khulah-kud: The Persian influence on Indian armour is most apparent in this helmet. The khulah-kud is a round; domed helmet with a spike on top, a nose guard, and a pair of tubular supports for plumes a few inches to either side of the centre front of the helmet. A chain-mail neck guard sometimes hung from the back of the khulah-kud, and a turban was often wrapped around it.
Turban: Various sorts of turbans were worn throughout India, many for religious reasons. The thick padding of a turban provides some protection to the wearer's head, functioning like the cap variety of helmet
Hide: Hide armours would be common in areas of Indian adventures where metal is uncommon, the people are poor, or religion dictates that hide must be used. Typically, such armour will be of elephant or rhinoceros hide. Nonetheless, it can be quite handsome and functional, and has the same chances of being magical as any other armour in areas where it predominates.
Heavy hide armour includes full skirts, and arm and leg guards. Lighter hide armour conforms to the characteristics of sadiqi armour (described later).
Kantha-trana: This broadly refers to a piece of armour that protects the neck and is worn independently of a basic suit of armour or a helmet. It does not improve armour class as such, but it bestows certain conditional benefits.
Lamellar: This sort of armour was similar to scale mail but was of higher quality. Thus, lamellar provides the same protection as scale mail, but it weighs less and is more expensive than the scale mail available in an Indian milieu.
Leather: Because the cow is a sacred animal in Hindu India, leather armour will not be used in many Indian campaign areas, and certain characters might be prohibited from its use. However, it may be used in non-Hindu states or by barbarians or other non-Hindus who dwell on the fringes of the world of Indian adventures.
Nagodarika: This was a shooting glove worn by archers. Most were leather or hide finger guards sewn onto straps that were wrapped around the user's hand to keep the devices in place.
Poshteen: The Poshteen was not actually armour as such, but rather a heavy sheepskin coat with the fur on the inside to protect against cold. Such garments were worn by dwellers of the craggy hills and mountains, historically by Afghans.
Quilted linen: Many Indian armours, particularly those of northern India, used quilted linen instead of leather, producing an armour similar to padded Lighter-than-normal coats of this armour would cost and weigh one-half normal and give a base AC 9. The least expensive of these armours contained only linen, but some were improved with studding with small gilt nails, or the addition of scale, mail, or metal plates.
Reinforced mail: The best Indian armours were of quilted linen reinforced with chain mail and metal plates. The chain mail and plates were fastened within the armour with metal studs and nails, and could not be worn separately or easily removed. A complete set of this armour included protective trousers, boots, dastana (q.v.), and a helmet, typically a khulah-kud (q.v.). It was not especially bulky or heavy for the protection it gave, but was still too bulky for Chahar-aina to be worn over it. This is the best sort of armour available in India. Most of it was very ornate and attractive, and the components of many suits, including a shield, were often crafted as matching pieces.
Sadiqi: This is the name for any suit of armour, such as chain mail or leather armour, that protects only the torso and does not cover the arms. The protection such armour provides is one place less than normal, and the cost and weight are two-thirds normal.
Scale mail: Coats of scale mail were found in many Indian regions, and they revealed again the martial influence of Persia. Such armour was more common in India
Studded leather: Because of the unlikelihood of leather being used for armour, studded leather has the same chances of being present in an Indian campaign as does leather armour.
Talatra: Known by several other names, this device was an arm guard or bracer worn by an archer to protect his inner arm from the slap of a released bowstring, Traditionally, the Talatra was made of iguana skin
Indian shields
In the historical and mythic texts that describe the arms of India, avarna is the Sanskrit word most often used to refer to shields, as opposed to body armour. Shields were of three basic types throughout India: parrying shields, round shields, and curved oblong shields. However, in such a vast, diverse area, exceptions to this exist.
Body: Indian infantry often used body shields that had bamboo frames covered with hide. These were the kind of shields used by the warriors who battled Alexander the Great. Because of their size, body shields reduce armour class against missile weapons by two places, rather than one.
Buckler: These small shields were favoured by some in India, and many of them were augmented with blades or spikes, allowing them to be used for both attacking and defending. Such spiked bucklers are discussed in "Indian weapons."
Dahl: The small or medium-sized round shield, called the dahl, was the most common Indian shield, particularly during the age of encounters with European powers. The dahl was circular, commonly of embossed leather or steel, and was used throughout India and the regions to its Northwest. Its form changed little over the centuries.
The dahl typically had four or five metal bosses on its face and two handles on the inside: one to slide the shield arm through, and the other for the shield hand to grasp. Some, often referred to as "Persian" in style, have six bosses and three handles, two of which the arm passes through. Some dahls were made of up to 50 layers of silk and used by Brahmins or others who eschewed the use of leather. Other dahls were constructed of equally rare materials, even tortoise shells.
Maratha shield: Such shields were typically medium in size and highly convex, almost coming to a point. They were lacquered and light, and highly effective against missile weapons.
Medium: It is likely that some combatants will carry medium-sized shields that do not conform to the appearance of any of the specialised shields of India. Such shields could be of any construction or appearance.
Parrying shields: Many parrying implements were used in India, devices intended both for attacking and defending. Parrying devices may not look like shields at all, but like pairs of metal bars or horns held by a grip between them. One example of such an item is the madu, discussed in "Indian weapons."
Small: Various kinds of small shields that do not conform to the characteristics of more common shields might be encountered in an Indian scenario. The fari, a small shield made of bamboo or cane, is an example of this. Other small shields might be made of hide and used by hill people, of woven palm fronds and used by jungle-dwellers, etc.
Indian weapons
The Indian subcontinent produced a wide variety of exotic, lethal, but often beautiful weapons. Naturally, many of the weapons used throughout India had equivalents in the West. However, many of them were unique, having neither Western nor Oriental counterparts.
Historically, there was an early Persian influence on Indian arms, from around 1500 BC, and a resultant overlap in the weapons of these two regions. Much later, many sorts of weapons and equipment were introduced by Arab invaders and settlers, for about 900 years, beginning in the 7th century AD The weapons listed herein are primarily those that were indigenous to the Indian subcontinent itself, but naturally include those that bear the influence of outside cultures. Certain Indian weapons were developed and used predominantly in specific areas; others had widespread usage.
Indian steel was quite good, and some weapons were constructed entirely of it, including the hafts. Nonetheless, much steel was imported from Persia or Damascus, despite a reputation of superiority that was spurious at best. Indeed, Indian weapons were among the highest quality in the world.
Ornate decorations and embellishments were often characteristic of Indian arms and armour. Many were chased with brass, silver, or gold, or fitted with ivory or jade hilts. The prices given for weapons in Indian campaigns represent only the base values of the weapons, and any sort of decorative work can easily increase their value from two to ten times at least. The level of craftsmanship of many Indian weapons exceeded that of contemporary European weapons.
Some Indian weapons were specially modified or designed to penetrate chainmail armour, which was generally the most formidable sort of armour encountered. The mail-piercer arrow, the peshkabz, and the zaghnal were so designed.
Arrow, mail-piercer: Mail-piercing arrows were designed to penetrate chain mail, and have a + 1 bonus to attack opponents clad in such armour. Such an arrow typically had a long shaft, four painted flights, and a hexagonal, steel, armour piercing head.
Bagh nakh: Also called "tiger's claws;' this weapon consisted of five metal claws fitted to a metal bar with a ring at each end. The first and fourth fingers were slid through the rings and the middle two fingers between the claws. An upward slash was the typical employment of the weapon. Bagh nakh were not generally a weapon for war, but rather for assassination or murder.
The wounds they inflicted were often meant to simulate those caused by an animal. Although similar to the nekode of Oriental Adventures bagh nakh do not assist in climbing. Such weapons would rarely be embellished in any way.
Buckler, spiked: An Indian spiked buckler typically consisted of a sturdy buckler with a pair of small, iron-shod horns protruding from the centre. It can be used to defend against a single frontal attack.
Chakram: A flat, steel ring, with a razor-sharp rim, the chakram was used in the Northwest of India by Sikhs. Each one was spun around the index finger, then released. Warriors typically carried a half-dozen of these weapons, either around their arms or around a conical turban.
Gada: The Gada was a large war club with a large round woodenhead mounted on a haft. The gada's great damage can be attributed to the fact that it was a two-handed weapon and had an unusually large head. If used one-handed, the gada is at -1 to hit and inflicts the damage of a normal club (1-6/1-3). The gada was associated with various Indian martial arts.
Hora: This weapon was a horn knuckle-duster, typically having five spikes along its front edge and one on each side. The hora was used in the brutal Indian martial art vajra-musti, which combined wrestling with savage armed blows. Due to its size and shape, the hora can be easily concealed.
Although a simple weapon, it might even be found in the hands of a king who practices the martial arts associated with it.
Katar: This was a punch dagger. Rather than having a straight hilt, the katar had two parallel metal bars holding a crossbar grip at a 900 angle to the blade. As a punch dagger, the katar did a bit more damage than an ordinary dagger. In form, it was a uniquely Indian weapon, carried in the sash of a warrior.
Many varieties of katar existed. Some were made so that when the two metal bars forming the grip were squeezed together, the blade opened into a three-pronged weapon. Others had a blade split about halfway along its length, giving it two blade ends with a space between them. Still others had three fixed blades, the extra two protruding from the hilt at 900 angles to the primary blade. A DM may treat each of these varieties differently as outlined below, or may simply state that they all function identically.
Scissors katars have more blades to potentially stab an opponent.
Kora: This was a heavy short sword with a wide, forward-curving blade, used in northern India and Nepal. It was a hacking weapon, sharp only on its inner edge, and had no thrusting point. It was often decorated with etchings in the steel of the blade. Nepalese warriors might carry one of these and a kukri (q.v.).
Kukri: Perhaps the most characteristic weapon of Nepal and northern India, the kukri has a heavy, single-edged, forward curving blade for slashing. Despite its shape, it is not meant to be thrown. The kukri has been traditionally used by Nepalese warriors since the 12th century.
More than just a formidable fighting knife, the kukri is a rugged tool that can be used for skinning game or chopping wood. The kukri can do almost anything that either a knife or a hand axe can do, sometimes even better.
The only decoration likely to be found on one is a small pair of notches on the blade near the hilt. These notches mean "divinity" and reflect the kukri's status as a religious symbol. The kukri was accompanied by a pair of small utility knifes in its sheath.
Madu: The madu was a sturdy buckler with an antelope horn, sometimes tipped with iron or steel, projecting from either side. Although the shield is buckler-sized, the horns assist in parrying, and because of them the madu can be used to defend against up to two frontal attacks.
Furthermore, characters proficient with the madu may also use it to attack (while defending with one of the long horns at a penalty equal to that assessed for an off-hand attack (Player's Handbook, page 96). Non-proficient characters may use it only to either attack or defend, with the attack made with a non-proficiency penalty.
Pata: A gauntlet sword, this long sword had a steel guard to protect the hand and wrist of its wielder, and had a punch grip like the katar (q.v.).
Peshkabz: This dagger, normally a straight-bladed weapon, has a reinforcing rib along its back edge. This reinforcement gives it a T cross-section that makes it especially useful for penetrating chain mail. However, it cannot be used as an effective throwing weapon.
Talwar: This was a heavy, broad-bladed, curved sword sometimes forged from solid steel. Some talwars had considerably lighter blades, and these function exactly like scimitars. Both styles of talwar are among the most common swords encountered in . The talwar was often used as a sacrificial weapon.
Zaghnal: The zaghnal is a one-handed pick, usually fashioned entirely of steel, with a broad, sharp, beak-like piercing head. Even though it was only about 1 1/2'-2' long, it was also heavy and had great punching power.
Many zaghnal were decorated with brass, silver, or other precious metals and had beautifully etched heads and hafts, sometimes adorned with images of animals or monsters.
Many weapons popular in Europe were used in India, but some have been slightly modified, and all will be crafted and embellished so as to have a wholly distinctive appearance. After each available weapon, names for similar weapons that conform to the same characteristics are listed in parentheses.
In addition to fine native steel, bamboo was a primary material used in Indian weapons. Bows, arrow and quarrel shafts, and the hafts of javelins, spears, maces, and other weapons were often made of bamboo.
Arquebus (bandukh torador): Matchlock weapons may be allowed in Indian adventures if the DM allows. They would be used for hunting or adventuring more than for warfare, for which the bow predominated.
Battle axes (tungi): A great variety of axes both double and single-headed, with heads in all possible shapes, were used throughout the subcontinent. They ranged from the dual-purpose weapon/tools of primitive tribesmen to the ornate weapons of aristocrats.
Bow: Long or short, composite or self, bows were available throughout India, although perhaps not all in the same areas. Long and short bows were often of bamboo, while composite bows were lacquered with a wood core, horn on the belly side, and sinew on the back. Bows were also sometimes made of steel in the shape of an Indian composite bow.
Club: All forms of clubs, sticks, curved sticks, and canes can be found used as weapons in an Indian adventure, all roughly conforming to the characteristics of a normal club. Certain of them, such as the curved sticks, may be associated with a martial-arts form.
Crossbow: Bows were the most common missile weapon available in India,
Dagger (bich, wa, khanjar, khanjarli, pih-kaetta): Many different types of daggers, in a multitude of exotic shapes, can be found in Indian adventures. Although of strange appearances or construction, most of them nonetheless function like normal daggers. However, peoples of certain regions, cults, or martial-arts disciplines may favour one type of dagger over another.
Dart: Indian darts were often of steel and could even be found in royal arsenals.
Hand axe (bhuj): Many varieties of hand axes could be found. In rustic areas, most of these doubled as tools.
Javelin: Bamboo-hafted, steel-headed javelins were used for both hunting and warfare.
Knife: The sort of variety found in daggers also applies to knives. In addition, many sorts of elaborate parrying knives were used.
Lance, light: Light lances were used in India, mostly in the western and central regions. One notable type made use of a hollow steel haft and had an armour-piercing steelhead.
Mace: Maces usually had flanged steelheads, and some had guarded and spurred hilts similar to that of the khandar (q.v.).
Morning star: Morning stars were popular, being high-damage weapons. Indian weapons of this type have large heads and profound spikes, doing either bludgeoning or piercing damage, whichever is most beneficial to the user.
Some reflect a high level of craftsmanship; being entirely of steel or having hollowed steel heads. Indian morning stars are considered to be of higher quality than ones in Europe
Pick: All steel fighting picks were popular in India and its environs. In both one-handed styles, such as the zaghnal (q.v.), and the more typical two-handed varieties.
Many picks were designed especially for penetrating chain mail.
Staff (lathi): Staff-fighting was a common fighting form in India, and various types of modified staves can be found, almost always of cane or bamboo, and sometimes weighted.
Spear (vita): Naturally, many types of spears were used. One spear, the vita, was equipped with a 5'-Iong tether, allowing it to be hurled at an extreme close range, usually by a horseman, and then reclaimed.
Swords: Perhaps more so than any other weapon type, a great variety of swords can be found in the Indian milieu. Almost any type or variation is possible within the exotic plethora that existed. Many of these had specific names but are much like existing sword types (see below). Some, however, have no unique names, despite their singular appearances.
Bastard (ram dao): Some large swords had hollow iron tubes for hilts, or alternating sections of tubes and hollow iron balls. Generally, swords were not any bigger than the bastard type, and the khandar (q.v.) was probably the most formidable that would be normally encountered.
Broad: Heavy, one-handed hacking swords are the most common general types of sword found after the talwar (q.v.) type in India
Long. Thrusting swords with more emphasis placed on the tip than the edges were the least frequently encountered type of sword in India.
Scimitar (shamshir): Curved swords of this general type are commonly found in the Indian milieu.
Short (choora, adya katti, zafar takieh): As with axes, short swords carried by rustics or tribesmen will usually also function as tools.
Heres some websites regarding the ancient Indian military.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/sandyxavier/emirates/rhino.html
http://ignca.nic.in/ks_41041.htm
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm
Wow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Excellent post http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Sorry for not replying, didn’t think this thread was still alive http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Agree with spmetla, excellent post King James I http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Some of those weapons, I never even heard of. *bookmarks page*
Thanks for the compliments Aymar de Bois Mauri http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Fragony, you are right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Both those weapons are different designs of the Bagh Nakh or “Tiger Claws” They were used mainly by assassins, in later times, a famous Mughal general was disemboweled with one.
Here’s one closer up:
http://therionarms.com/sold/ttoy112.JPG
PFJ_bejazuz
12-19-2003, 17:32
Big Cheers for Rajput
Reading that post was one of the best skives I've had at work for ages.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-20-2003, 20:07
Quote[/b] ]Thanks for the compliments Aymar de Bois Mauri
You're welcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-20-2003, 20:10
Quote[/b] ]Fragony, you are right Both those weapons are different designs of the Bagh Nakh or “Tiger Claws” They were used mainly by assassins, in later times, a famous Mughal general was disemboweled with one.
It's really weird
How was it used? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-20-2003, 20:11
What a heck of a post, King James I http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Was the tigerclaw used by assasins to make people believe they had fallen prey to a tiger, or was it more of a ceremonial(spelling?) use?
Quote[/b] ]Arquebus (bandukh torador): Matchlock weapons may be allowed in Indian adventures if the DM allows. They would be used for hunting or adventuring more than for warfare, for which the bow predominated
The DM allows King James? Dungeon Master? I'm disappointed I thought this was all authentic knowledge but alas I have seen the the source of this knowledge. For the information we give thanks and of course gratitude to the provider of the information.
King James, you gotta give credit to where you got that from íf you're gonna take it from a D&D game, or at least cleverly disguise ALL of it as your own knowledge so that I wouldn't be the wiser. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Oh well, cheers M8 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif
Quote[/b] ]It's really weird
How was it used?
Quote[/b] ]Was the tigerclaw used by assasins to make people believe they had fallen prey to a tiger, or was it more of a ceremonial(spelling?) use?
The Tiger Claws was not that much of a ceremonial weapon, actually it was one of the few Indian weapons that was not usually decorated.
The main reason it was used by assassins is that it was so tiny and lightweight that it could be taken almost anywhere, and be easily concealed in the hand. It could easily be whipped out of hiding, and used to dispatch someone.
Here's a short but good description:
http://members.aol.com/dargolyt/TheForge/tigrclaw.htm
Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-22-2003, 22:43
Quote[/b] ]I'm disappointed I thought this was all authentic knowledge but alas I have seen the the source of this knowledge.
AH I thought there were some discrepancies. But really didn't pay attention... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Thanks for the good info, Rajput. I need to read more Indian history.
Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-23-2003, 21:01
AAAH... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Now I understand how it was used. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Thanks, Rajput http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Still, it doesn't sound like an effective weapon to me. I think a dagger would be a better choise for such a lifestyle, also easily conceiled, there must have been some sort of 'cult' behind this weapon.
gaelic cowboy
12-25-2003, 00:43
This needs to be included as a modd in total war asap.
Mod it NOW OR ELSE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
ramareddy
01-06-2005, 12:58
Well, I’m reading through your thread and I have to say that there are more than a few things that are inaccurate.
“ Some chariots held more men, the largest could hold seven men. Indian chariots were so large and heavy that they required four to six horses to pull them. Unlike Egyptian chariots, which moved quickly and fired arrows into the enemy ranks, Indian chariots often charged right into melee battle. They crushed enemy soldiers under their wheels, trampled them under the horses, all while the soldier(s) on the chariot fired arrows into them, or fought it out hand to hand.”
Absolute garbage. Indian chariots came out of favor around the 3rd or 4th Century BC, also chariot combat in every state was highly ritualized, there were certain rules that had to be followed. First of all, chariots usually fought chariots in a 1-on-1 sort of deal. They did not charge headlong into infantry formations as that would leave them with dead horses and stranded in a sea of angry infantrymen with a dazzling array of pointy things.
“Long steel swords, often coated with poison, would be attached to their tusks.”
This is just ridiculous. They weren’t swords, they were metal conical attachments. And poison? Think of how illogical that is. This actually reminds me of a Simpsons quote that I enjoy:
HOMER: Oh, yeah, what are you gonna do? Release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you?
“ Many warriors wore no armor, but instead wore silk clothing. This actually worked to block arrows, which couldn’t penetrate the silk fibers. “
WWHAT!>!? Are you drunk?! Just because arrows couldn’t penetrate silk doesn’t mean that they “blocked” the arrows like a shield. The Mongols actually made the use of silk as an LOOSE UNDERGARMENT famous as it was standard issue. If they were hit with an arrow, the arrow would be easier to remove because the cloth would follow the arrowhead into the wound. It would just require a little tugging around puncture to remove it, simplifying the process ( a lot).
“Indian archers did fight in formation, but they were not as tight or as disciplined as the longbowmen of England. #One reason for this is that the bow and arrow was open to use by all the castes, not just the Kshatriya or warrior class. #The Kshatriya were well trained, and would fight in strict ranks to the death. But those who were not trained since birth in warfare might break rank. “
In reality, Kshatriya warriors would probably be much more ill-disciplined than non-Kshatriya warriors. We’re talking about a group of very elitist people, not the type to anonymously loose an arrow. While bowmen of other castes had nothing to gain for gallivanting around a battlefield, and so were more likely to stay in disciplined ranks and stick to what they were told.
I have a feeling this came about after watching a LOT of Vedic soap operas or a good amount of knowledge in Indian Myth. Also, it seems that you made some assumptions regarding (e.g.) chariots, kshatriya and other things. There might be more mistakes, this is just from a skim and some generalizing comments that caught my eye. Be careful what you right, you’re not the only Indian Military Historian in the world.
Gregoshi
01-06-2005, 14:20
Let's be a little more respectful please.
Mouzafphaerre
01-06-2005, 16:05
-
That was in order, thanks Gregoshi san. :bow:
-
aye, I think Rajput knows what he is talking about being from the country and all..... Tis too bad Rajput doesn't come here anymore though...
Edit: If you were to show us some good, solid evidence that contradicts Raj's opinion we might listen to what ya have to say ;)
ramareddy
01-12-2005, 06:12
The following a PM from Gregoshi:
Since your first post in the Org forums was in the above named thread, I'd like to remind you about the forum rules you should have read when you registered your account. We expect our patrons to remain civil and respectful to each other, doubly so in the Monastery forum due to its more "intellectual" nature. Feel free to argue, dispute or correct information in someone else's post, after all, that is how we can learn from each other. However, calling another's post "absolute garbage" or accusing them of being drunk is not conducive to a civil dialog. Please make your points without being condescending or insulting.
Second point: this is an international forum. For many of our patrons, english is a second language. Therefore, they may not be expressing themselves as clearly as they might in their native language. Regardless of their native language, there are a number of reasons why a post may be inaccurate or unclear: poor word choice, post written in a hurry, poster is ill...or maybe the poster is a little drunk.
Be respectful of others and they will do likewise to you. Otherwise, thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.
I thank Gregoshi for this very nice, diplomatic message.
My turn:
To make things clear, English is also MY second language. India is also the worlds largest English speaking country ( 320 million people) that being said, I believe that Rajput can eloquently convey whatever he wants, but I don't think he was putting it to good use. It seems like much of what he didn't know was lifted from Hindu mythology, just assumed through the power of conjecture, or fabricated. I would say those three things don't belong in such large quantities in an "intellectual" enviroment, even if they are quoted.
I was showing as much respect to Rajput as he showed to history. In fact, I probably showed a little more. Tell me what would happen if I started a thread about Knights, stating that at every battle that a knight participated in, they carefully surveyed the battlefield before throwing their javelins. Would I be laughed at? Could Gregoshi stem the tide of " You are an idiot n00b" posts? Would he want to? Maybe. That's the way I feel when I read this. The sad thing is, since Rajput was the first to whet your appetite for Indian military culture, everyone takes all these fallacies to heart. :furious3:
This is a quote directly from Scipio:
"They were good at archery too?? Tell me is ther one thing they didnt master?"
Now, if you're asking that question, don't you think SOMETHING is amiss? To answer your question I personally believe that one of the greatest weaknesses of the Indians was their trouble maintaining a horse population. Sure the northwest Indians could, but all those that had a monsoon season could not. Turns out horses don't breed well in high humidity/rainfall. Anyway, this caused a constant demand for horses which would eventually have to be replaced. The second big problem with Ancient Indian warfare was it's code of conduct. Battles wouldn't happen as giant, decisive games of chess. There were various rules that had to be followed that did not allow for, in many cases, tactical innovation. By 500 BC Generals have much less control over their armies, and must rely on superiority of individuals' training and some luck.
Scipio: Just because someone is from a country does not automatically make them an expert about that country. It ESPECIALLY does not give them an objective knowledge base, " the historian must have no country".
So, you're willing to take his ( uncited) word but not mine when it comes to Indian military history? If you want them, tell me, they will be given.
Over summer I had posted a unit list for a hypothetical Indian faction. It was quite popular. Here it is:
After reading Psycho's post I was inspired to make my own list of units for a given faction. Unlike
Psycho's, however, this faction does not exist in the world of RTW, though it could. At Hydespes, Alexander of Macedon was
able to defeat an Indian king. If an expansion were to be made about in Alexander's time, most likely highlighting Alexander
himself, it would have to include at least north India ( I know of talk of a "Fall of Rome" expansion, but a man can dream).
Even using RTW's time frame ( 264 BC- 14AD), India was rich with culture, with Chandragupta and his grandson Asoka conquering and
ruling much of modern India. I believe they would make a very interesting faction. For the sake of the game,
I understand that pushing the map that far east would complicate things, especially
going a little further east would give us Han China. In any case, read through these units and tell me what you think.
The first paragraph deals with history, the second with how they would be in-game.
INFANTRY
--Peasants
Standard RTW peasant with sickle and turban with top-knot.
--Conscript spearmen
Spearmen similar to Eastern Infantry, except with a round metal shield. They would be wearing a turban with top-knot,
scale armor around torso, and baggy cloth pants.
--Conscript archers
Default archers with turban and top-knot.
--Tribal skirmishers
Indian tribes have always given their allegiance to one crown or another, and are invaluable for the stealth
they give any army. They throw short javelins or darts at the enemy, and have a knife for melee. They only wear
cloth around their waist and a small feather headress.
Expert at hiding
--Indian Longbowmen
Megasthenes tells of very skilled archers in India that used a bow the length of a man. One end of the
bow had to be in the ground to stabilize it. I think this could be the long range missile infantry that RTW
could use for lack of English Longbowmen. They wear scale armor around the torso, baggy cloth pants,
and a turban .
--Tribal Axemen
A nearly naked axemen that can hide in many places along the battle field. They wear
cloth around their waist and a small feather headress.
Impetuous
Expert at hiding
--Gada Infantry
A Gada is essentially a metal mace. It was obviously very heavy and required strong men to wield it.
These warriors will have a good attack and charge. They can break most infantry, and do well against
heavily armored infantry. They wear a cuirass,pauldrons, upper arm bands, with gauntlets and metal skull cap helmet.
Superior
Impetuous
--Ksatriya Swordsmen
By this time, the Indian caste system was in place. In Ancient India, only the Ksatriya ( a warrior, similar to European Knigh
or Japanese Samurai) were allowed use the combination of sword and shield. They will have a good charge and attack, years of
training have also put them in incredible shape. They are armored in a cuirass, gauntlets, and a metal skull cap.
Elite
Very Hardy
Impetuous
--Kshatriya Longbowmen
Archers that use the Indian Longbow. Being Ksatriya, they have trained their entire lives for war, and
are noticably more accurate and better armored than standard longbowmen. They carry a short sword for melee
and can beat back militia level troops. They wear scale armor around the torso, gauntets, and a skull cap.
CAVALRY
--Ksatriya Cavalry
Mounted Ksatriya Swordsmen, very skilled.
Elite
Impetuous
--Conscript Cavalry
Mounted Conscript Spearmen.
--Indian Chariot
Chariots have been used by Indians in all major conflicts since very ancient times. It is the prefered method of fighting
for the Ksatriya. Each unscythed chariot contains a driver and two Ksatriya archers and is pulled by two horses. Best used on Level ground
to harass the enemy.
Elite
Impetuous
--Indian War Elephant (slightly smaller than African Elephant, though larger than Bush Elephant)
Elephants were quite common in Indian warfare.
--Armored Indian Elephant (slightly smaller than African Elephant, though larger than Bush Elephant)
These elephants will have three archers ridingin their howdahs, for balance when compared to the African Elephants(assuming
they cost the same amount).
--Band of Champions
In modern day Central India there were mercenaries that supposedly drank large amounts of alcohol, then had their
elephants do the same. They are said to have never lost a battle. Needless to say, it would make for some very interesting units.
They will lack archers, but will make up for it in .
Hardy
Impetuous
--General's Bodyguard ( Large Armored War Elephants)
When Porus was defeated by Alexander he was riding the largest elephant and best trained in his kingdom. With that in mind, I think
it would be good if the General's Bodyguard for India were elephants the same size as the Cataphract Elephants in RTW.
For the sake of the game, we will say that these elephants will not run amok even as close to as easily as others, because
there would no option to hit the " self-destruct" button for a general.
Disciplined
ramareddy
01-20-2005, 02:32
What, now no one has anything to say?
What I meant was that seeing as how you didnt supported your bashing of the man with references then yes I am gunna believe him before you as he is from the country.
Mouzafphaerre
01-20-2005, 04:30
-
ramareddy,
It's not your knowledge, claims, counter-claims, objections or whatnot that we object to. Yes, the fact that you don't back up your remarks with solid references while you're accusing the original poster for not doing it is a penalty point but what makes us uneasy is your disrespectful style, which is not tolerated here at the ORG, especially in the Monastry.
Here are your own words:
Absolute garbage... WWHAT!>!? Are you drunk?!... Be careful what you right, you’re not the only Indian Military Historian in the world.
In gaming or off topic sections these might be tolerated up to a point, given that both parties have enough of a common background not to get offended and that the wording doesn't actually mean offense, but never here in the Monastry, where we come to learn and share what we know about history and historical matters.
Thus, your contributions will be welcome as long as backed up with eligible references and set forth in a civil manner. But your strong and out-of-place wording and bravado attire will not earn you anything but sanctions, which may go as severe as banishment from the forum.
Regards, and looking forward to seeing your positive contribution. :bow:
-
Gregoshi
01-20-2005, 06:00
Mouzafphaerre, the was a beautifully worded response and I have nothing to add to it but my support. Thank you. :bow:
Namaste Bhai Jan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Indeed the Mughals (like the Ottomans) made early and good use of gunpowder weapons. I'll scan some stuff as soon as possible. In fact I got a book called the Badshnamah it's got loads of paintings.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
The Mughals werent Indian, the were descendents of Amir TImur (Timur the lame) A Tartar. The Mughal Dynsaty was setup by Barbur Timur's great, great, great grand son. Most of the stuff Rajput put in, with all respect, looks like it stemmed from indian mythology. India is not really a country reknowned for its military prowess, Indian culture has been around for thousands of years but like china they have never really expanded out side of their boundaries and when at points in history have come in contact with military powers from the outside have been conquerd; Tarters, Islam, the British and hypothetically the Greeks under Alexander could have conquered India if they wanted to.
PROMETHEUS
07-06-2005, 22:42
I don't think I've ever seen any topics here on Indian history, so I wrote one up on the military history of ancient India
Ok I am creating the Mauryan faction from 220 BC to 100 AD could you help me in finding out more informations about units?
here is a unit from Ghandhara that I have made ....
but I need more infos....
https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6238/16se1.jpg
this is part of my mod RES GESTAE that will feature the Mauryan faction ..... here a sample of the map....
http://img283.echo.cx/img283/4422/18hr.jpg
https://img236.imageshack.us/img236/6133/11mw.jpg
https://img221.imageshack.us/img221/366/12jx.jpg
and the list of factions....
Factions are ....
Roman Julii
Roman Valerii
Roman Cornelii
Roman Senatus
Carthago
Greeck Cities
Macedonian Kingdom
Tolemaic Egypt
Seleucid Kingdom
Parthian Kingdom
Bactrian Kingdom
ScythoSarmatian tribes
Germanic Tribes
Britannic Tribes
Cetliberian Tribes
Numiodian Kingdom
Pontus Kingdom
Mauryan Kingdom
Dacian Kingodm and Thracian Tribes
The Wizard
07-07-2005, 00:43
AFAIK Prom (not all that much), they look a bit too Sikh too me, or a bit too Rajput, since I'm not sure the Rajput's were as markedly different from the rest of India, as they were in later times, in the time of Maurya...
But you are right, Rajput is the only person you can really talk to, and the problem is the fellow hasn't posted for a very long time; a pity, since this is one of the best threads in the Monastery.
~Wiz
PROMETHEUS
07-07-2005, 01:07
Well I have used a pre Kushan northern indian representation , plus some Mauryan warrior images , but the problem is for other units than swordsman and spearman ..... I need info on chariots and names etc.....
here is one of the samples , the rest I have on some sort of Osprey book on the period ....but not much on them ....
http://www.4to40.com/images/discoverindia/ancient_indian_costume/satavahana/satavahana_soldiers.gif
That is the source I used for the reconstruction...
https://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9991/12my1.jpg
The Wizard
07-07-2005, 02:06
Ok. It appears you are right. Very nicely skinned, nevertheless. Unfortunately I know next to nothing about what you are asking.
~Wiz
PROMETHEUS
07-07-2005, 23:26
Well If the list of Ramareddy is correct and historical I guess I can use it but I would need just some references or proves about them ... at least to have a visual pic to reproduce in game...
PROMETHEUS
07-09-2005, 17:54
I wish someone of those experts will pop up soon , in the meanwhile I am following a bit the Ramareddy list , I moved on making the big General's War Armoured Elephant with howdha , I am following this as reference , I hope is enough correct ....
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/5/55/War-elephant-illustrated-london-news.jpg
there is an Indian faction in Bleu Lotus total war tough it's a fantasy mod. But they do have Chakrams or how was it called again.
Btw: great post Rajput, really great!
PROMETHEUS
07-10-2005, 10:58
If possible that Ramareddy comes to see this post I would like to make some commentas /questions on his listing , I would like him to help me to make this faction most precise and historical and for this i need some references , photoes , sculptures , drawings etc , not only readen descriptions ..... so here are my questions:
INFANTRY
--Peasants
Standard RTW peasant with sickle and turban with top-knot.
--Conscript spearmen
Spearmen similar to Eastern Infantry, except with a round metal shield. They would be wearing a turban with top-knot,
scale armor around torso, and baggy cloth pants.
what u mean by scale armour around torso , like the one i made for the ghandhara pearmen o
? and the rest of the armour?
--Conscript archers
Default archers with turban and top-knot.
--Tribal skirmishers
Indian tribes have always given their allegiance to one crown or another, and are invaluable for the stealth
they give any army. They throw short javelins or darts at the enemy, and have a knife for melee. They only wear
cloth around their waist and a small feather headress.
What is like this feather headress?
Expert at hiding
--Indian Longbowmen
Megasthenes tells of very skilled archers in India that used a bow the length of a man. One end of the
bow had to be in the ground to stabilize it. I think this could be the long range missile infantry that RTW
could use for lack of English Longbowmen. They wear scale armor around the torso, baggy cloth pants,
and a turban .
--Tribal Axemen
A nearly naked axemen that can hide in many places along the battle field. They wear
cloth around their waist and a small feather headress.
Impetuous
Expert at hiding
--Gada Infantry
A Gada is essentially a metal mace. It was obviously very heavy and required strong men to wield it.
These warriors will have a good attack and charge. They can break most infantry, and do well against
heavily armored infantry. They wear a cuirass,pauldrons, upper arm bands, with gauntlets and metal skull cap helmet.
how is like the cuirass , gauntlets and arm bands?and especially how is looking a gada?
Superior
Impetuous
--Ksatriya Swordsmen
By this time, the Indian caste system was in place. In Ancient India, only the Ksatriya ( a warrior, similar to European Knigh
or Japanese Samurai) were allowed use the combination of sword and shield. They will have a good charge and attack, years of
training have also put them in incredible shape. They are armored in a cuirass, gauntlets, and a metal skull cap.
Elite
Very Hardy
Impetuous
--Kshatriya Longbowmen
Archers that use the Indian Longbow. Being Ksatriya, they have trained their entire lives for war, and
are noticably more accurate and better armored than standard longbowmen. They carry a short sword for melee
and can beat back militia level troops. They wear scale armor around the torso, gauntets, and a skull cap.
CAVALRY
--Ksatriya Cavalry
Mounted Ksatriya Swordsmen, very skilled.
how the saddle and bridles? or anyother stuff?
Elite
Impetuous
--Conscript Cavalry
Mounted Conscript Spearmen.
--Indian Chariot
Chariots have been used by Indians in all major conflicts since very ancient times. It is the prefered method of fighting
for the Ksatriya. Each unscythed chariot contains a driver and two Ksatriya archers and is pulled by two horses. Best used on Level ground
to harass the enemy.
Elite
Impetuous
--Indian War Elephant (slightly smaller than African Elephant, though larger than Bush Elephant)
Elephants were quite common in Indian warfare.
--Armored Indian Elephant (slightly smaller than African Elephant, though larger than Bush Elephant)
These elephants will have three archers ridingin their howdahs, for balance when compared to the African Elephants(assuming
they cost the same amount).
--Band of Champions
In modern day Central India there were mercenaries that supposedly drank large amounts of alcohol, then had their
elephants do the same. They are said to have never lost a battle. Needless to say, it would make for some very interesting units.
They will lack archers, but will make up for it in .
Hardy
Impetuous
--General's Bodyguard ( Large Armored War Elephants)
When Porus was defeated by Alexander he was riding the largest elephant and best trained in his kingdom. With that in mind, I think
it would be good if the General's Bodyguard for India were elephants the same size as the Cataphract Elephants in RTW.
For the sake of the game, we will say that these elephants will not run amok even as close to as easily as others, because
there would no option to hit the " self-destruct" button for a general.
Disciplined
Back to the elephant , I am making the king's elephant , with armoured barding , a howdha to me sitted in and size as the sirian armoured Seleucid Elephant ..... f this is not correct then do it please...
Here the sample of the work in progress....
https://img55.imageshack.us/img55/3236/11vu1.jpg
PROMETHEUS
07-10-2005, 19:55
Here are the Ksatrya Chariot Archers....
https://img56.imageshack.us/img56/1443/12gu.jpg
https://img73.imageshack.us/img73/4473/24mv.jpg
Gregoshi
07-10-2005, 22:28
Nice work PROMETHEUS. :yes:
You could try PMing the patron(s) you wish to question. The PM should send them an email notification to alert them about the PM. As long as the email address for the patron is still valid, this should do the trick.
PROMETHEUS
07-11-2005, 01:07
I removed the use of swords from the spearmen to avoid CTDs , here are the Ksatrya warriors ....
https://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1318/19sg.jpg
https://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6215/27ba.jpg
I took inspiration for this model by a model of charioteer and an indian prince of the 3d cent BC...
this one ....
https://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8893/14aj1.jpg
http://www.soldiers-russia.com/new_soldiers/india/ink3_f.jpg
PROMETHEUS
07-12-2005, 22:57
Ok here is a preview of the work in progress on a Raja Elephant , I am working on animations , still to see if I will be able to do them ...
https://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4875/60kr.jpg
Gregoshi
07-13-2005, 04:06
PROMETHEUS, are you posting this stuff in the modding forums too? If you are seeking verification of historical accuracy, then it is fine to post here - though you should start another thread. If this is purely for modding, then it is best done in the modding sub-forums.
PROMETHEUS
07-13-2005, 09:09
I ost here for historical verification fro when someone of the experts check this , there is no reason to post them in modding thread I guess....
PROMETHEUS
07-13-2005, 20:41
Now Working on the MAh Rajha ....
I based my work on some Mauryan Ornaments , gived him a cuirass and stuff....
as well as some Possible Kushan elements ...
http://www.4to40.com/images/discoverindia/ancient_indian_costume/mauryan_sunga_period/mauryan_sunga_armlets_patna.gif
serpentine armlets are of the Achaemenid type and depict the Iranian influence on Indian jewellery of this period; he wears an antariya in the lehnga style, an uttariya and a thick many-stringed kayabandh with knotted ends-kalabuka...
then I used ...
http://www.4to40.com/images/discoverindia/ancient_indian_costume/mauryan_sunga_period/mauryan_sunga_necklace_bharut.gif
Kantha : short neckalce called tilari (three-stringed); each string consists of graduated peaarls and a central gem.....
http://www.4to40.com/images/discoverindia/ancient_indian_costume/mauryan_sunga_period/mauryan_sunga_courtier_bharut_2.gif
turban is wound around the long hair tied in a top knot; to fix the turban in place a decorative band has been used; large disc-type earrings and two strings of beads adorn the neck....
And from Mathura style...
http://www.4to40.com/images/discoverindia/ancient_indian_costume/Kushan/kushan_empire_king_kanishka.gif
Tunic : calf-length and heavy quilted, with braid at the bottom edge
Chugha : a coat which is longer than the tunic, worn open at centre front; it has a decorative braid at the centre front and hem with probably long gathered-up sleeves, but I made short sleeved to evidentiate the serpentiune jewels ....
and Baggy Pants under it ....
I hope this is enough representative I am still researching on the sword type and possibly any shield , but becouse it will ride an Elephant or a chariot may be no shield ...
http://www.4to40.com/images/discoverindia/ancient_indian_costume/Kushan/kushan_empire_king_kanishka.gif
https://img216.imageshack.us/img216/8020/12zn1.jpg
ramareddy
07-15-2005, 06:01
Great Work.
Give me a few days I can get you all the information regarding armor and dress.
I'm not exactly at home discussing India and her armies, but I don't think that the elephants had howdahs in the period before 300BC (in fact some believe that it was the elephants of Pyrrhus that had the first towers). They had either only a thick carpetlike saddle or a flatter platform. Neither providing any protection.
Also the armoured elephants weren't really armoured, but had a headpiece and some protection in form of padded armour. But if the other armoured elephants are retained in your mod then of course there should be armoured Indian elephants as they did become armoured in time.
But DAMN! It looks so great! I'm really impressed by your work PRO (a fitting nickname now).
http://www.webcom.com/~ara/col/art/wheel.jpg
Alright... Anyone that call tell me more about this picture?
so you want to no how looks a gada? :charge:
I tell. :book:
http://www.sirigina.com/learn/images/gada.gif :bow:
Histerikali these used by Bartix Pegasus Riders. ~D
The ones in Blue Lotus are slightly eksagerated. ~:eek:
In a gada da vida :embarassed:
PROMETHEUS
07-15-2005, 14:00
I'm not exactly at home discussing India and her armies, but I don't think that the elephants had howdahs in the period before 300BC (in fact some believe that it was the elephants of Pyrrhus that had the first towers). They had either only a thick carpetlike saddle or a flatter platform. Neither providing any protection.
Also the armoured elephants weren't really armoured, but had a headpiece and some protection in form of padded armour. But if the other armoured elephants are retained in your mod then of course there should be armoured Indian elephants as they did become armoured in time.
But DAMN! It looks so great! I'm really impressed by your work PRO (a fitting nickname now).
Well , the period is from 220 BC to 69 AD ....and If you look at the howdha I placed it is a flat platform with a roof , I have seen carvings of indian elephants of the period with a howdha like a flat platform , not about turrets in effect , What I am making is to make 3 elephants , one without anything but carpets over and riding passengers , another one with flat open platform and a third one like the flat covered howdha that you see....
none of them have further protection....
BTW RAMAREDDY i bneed to know if they used javelins or archers on top of the elephants or both ....
Ok, then the elephants are perfect. I was thinking you perhaps was doing it around the period of Alexander.
In this case I would say that the 'light' elephants have a leather headpiece and a thick clothblanket across their back that protects the sides, shoulders and belly.
I can answer your question. Poros is said to have been throwing javelins and on some of the other elephants there were archers, but mainly it was javelins. And in general 2-3 riders beyond the mahout. 2 riders where it was important nobles ('I need my space and comforts. Get down').
PROMETHEUS
07-16-2005, 17:42
I was thinkinf of ....
idnian Elephant , 2 riders and one handler , the riders carry javelins ....
indian heavy elephant , a bit more of protection and a flat howdha on top , riders carry archs ....
heavy armoured Elephant , this is the sort of cataphract elephant of the king , carry covered howdha and two archers plus the handler ...
correct me if I am wrong ....
all the riders should use a new animation that lets them stay kneeling instead of standing....
Hmmm... They sound good.
I would give the Heavy Elephant javelins as well. They were far more prevalent as far as I have understood. It makes sense (since we can't combine) for the bodyguard elephant (hehe... it just struck me that the Indian rulers should have a few elephants as his bodyguard) to have archers.
So elephant (headpiece), heavy elephant (headpiece, platform and padded armour) and finally the armoured elephant or bodyguard (metal headpiece and various other metal armour) and closed howdah... Or were you thinking something else?
PROMETHEUS
07-16-2005, 21:25
no that was pretty much my idea , but I will wait for any correction by Ramareddy , I am not sure that I could add another unit of chariots , thus making a early leader with the chariot and a later leader with the Elephant .....
The Wizard
07-18-2005, 01:39
http://www.webcom.com/~ara/col/art/wheel.jpg
Alright... Anyone that call tell me more about this picture?
Looks like a Hindu mythical scene to me.
~Wiz
PROMETHEUS
07-20-2005, 13:18
This is the Faction Banner for the Maurya Faction I think is quite correct since I took the one from the Ashoka Column , the draw is made by FERRES !!!
https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1660/19jv.jpg
That is looking more than just pretty good. Nice troops, and the elephants in the background are decidedly goodlooking.
But are you creating a cutscene or something? Those black bars point towards it.
The Wizard
07-21-2005, 02:04
Prom always uses widescreen.
~Wiz
ramareddy
07-22-2005, 06:28
About the picture: It is a scene from the Mahabharata in which, Krishna ( the blue guy) attacks Bhishma ( silver armor) because Bhishma is fighting against his own clan. Arjuna, a legendary archer, is trying to prevent Krishna from fighting because he had made an oath earlier that he would not take part in battle as a combatant, merely as a chariot driver. So Arjuna is merely trying to prevent him from breaking his promise ( BIG no no in epics).
Prometheus:
Three archers and a mahout per elephant.
Also, don't add the Gada Infantry, Replace them with Elite Spearmen ( Royal Guard to be precise).
I've never heard of a flat platform without walls on an elephant. I would just have one elephant with three archers riding on the back, and another one with a howdah. I think the General's Elephant should have a covered howdah.
That Lion insignia is quite good, there is also a peacock symbol that is ubiquitous on their coins, might want to think about that.
And can I ask where you found that picture of the warriors and the blacksmith?
PROMETHEUS
07-22-2005, 09:06
What warrior and blacksmith? what picture?
Also here is a Ksatrya Warrior , but I am not sure if they where really so unarmoured or if this is a cerimonial or "peace" dress....
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/kshatriya.jpg
ramareddy
07-22-2005, 23:17
That's is actually a picture of a Greek Warrior from the 1st Century BC, I think.
The headband and the leaf in his hand both identify him as such.
The picture from your July 7th post. I see numbers, maybe from Osprey?
PROMETHEUS
07-23-2005, 01:29
No another friend of mine had a book over eastern units like Bactria and northern Kushan , that is where I took it ...
ramareddy
07-23-2005, 07:46
Can I have the name of that book?
And you saw my comments about the Greek Warrior in the sculpture?
PROMETHEUS
07-23-2005, 10:32
Yes I saw , Unfortunately my friend isn't on line those days , but I will ask him as soon as I see him....
about the comment on the Ksatrya , well I thrust you , I am not the indian expert here , I took much of infos on those two sites.....
http://www.4to40.com/discoverindia/default.htm
http://images.google.it/imgres?imgurl=http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/battle2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.atributetohinduism.com/War_in_Ancient_India.htm&h=351&w=635&sz=64&tbnid=fDR4f9YF_IwJ:&tbnh=74&tbnw=135&hl=it&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dancient%2Bindia%2Bweapon%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dit%26lr%3D
BTW could you make a list of unit "final" with some visual references I could use? Also why the Gada inf was switched?
ramareddy
08-05-2005, 18:56
http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/india/calcutta/cm11.html
Here is a reworked unit list that I made for RTR, but it should apply.
I'm not sure how common the Gada was, so I made it a mercenary unit instead of a roster unit. Replaced them with royal gaurds which are historically accurate.
The Ancient Indian Army was divided into four limbs (Infantry, Cavalry, Chariots, Elephants) or the Chatarungabala ( four limbs).
INFANTRY (Patti [ cognate to Latin "Pedis"]): The most numerous part of an Ancient Indian Army. They seemed to have been dominated by archers.
--Conscript spearmen (AOR) ( Padagopa= "Foot Guard")
Medium Spearmen with circular metal plate on torso, and a round metal shield. They would be wearing a small turban with top-knot,
scale armor around torso, and baggy cloth pants. Low Morale
--Indian Longbowmen ( AOR) ( Patiyodha= " Foot Soldiers" Ancient Indian sources make it quite clear that these are infact missile troops, contrary to what the English translation might suggest)
Megasthenes tells of very skilled archers in India that used a bow the length of a man. One end of the
bow had to be in the ground to stabilize it. They should also be armed with a two-handed broad sword.
They will be relatively cheap and probably the most numerous unit in your army. They are shirtless with baggy cloth pants,
and a turban. Low Morale
I think Legrasse made this unit and I know it is part of the Indian AOR.
--Ksatriya Swordsmen
In Ancient India, only the Ksatriya ( a warrior, similar to European Knight
or Japanese Samurai) were allowed use the combination of sword and shield. They will have a good charge and attack, years of
training have also put them in incredible shape. They should wear a short-sleeved silk shirt under a cuirass, gauntlets, and a metal skull cap. They should be
very hardy, elite,have high morale, and be impetuous.
--Kshatriya Longbowmen
Elite archers armed with recurving longbow, not with bamboo bow. Being Ksatriya, they have trained their entire lives for war, and
are noticably more accurate and better armored than standard longbowmen. They carry a short sword for melee
and can beat back militia level troops. They wear armor similar to that the Ksatriya swordsmen.
Elite Spearmen ( Royal Guards)
Heavy Spear, Disciplined, High Morale, Encourages Others. One of the first thing Chandragupta did when he gained power
was create an elite core of hereditary gaurds for his army. I am assuming they are spearmen
* Tentative Unit Type: Indian Javelineer*
CAVALRY/CHARIOTS : The weakest arm of an Indian army, and in the chariots' case, the most antiquated.
--Ksatriya Cavalry ( Asvana [Horsemen], compare to Persian "Aswar")
Mounted Ksatriya Swordsmen, very skilled. They should also be very, very expensive and be availabe
only in northwest India ( Modern Day Punjab or Sindh). They should not have the greatest charge, but do well against non-spearmen
infantry in prolonged melee.
--Indian Chariot ( Ratha = Chariot [ cognate of Latin 'Rota'])
Chariots have been used by Indians in all major conflicts since very ancient times.
However, since the Alexander's invasion chariots have been losing military favor, though they were once
the premier arm of any army. Each unscythed chariot contains a driver and two Ksatriya archers and is pulled by two horses. They will have
better range than Horse Archers but be considerably slower. Best used on level ground
to harass infantry .
* Tentative Unit Type: Javelin Cavalry*
Should only be available in northwest India.
ELEPHANTRY ( Hasta ): All elephant units should encourage friendly units heavily, because Indian battles were often won with elephants.
Elephants should also have their own building, and not be included in the cavalry building.
--Indian War Elephant ( AOR)
Elephants were very common in Indian warfare since their were first tamed around the 11th Century. Kings would often guage the worth of their army on how
large the elephant arm was.
This has already been created.
--Armored Indian Elephant ( AOR) ( Samveeta [ wrapped, covered, or armored] Hasta)
These elephants will have three archers riding in their howdahs, for balance when compared to the African Elephants(assuming
they cost the same amount).
--General's Bodyguard (Vaaru, royal elephant )
When Porus was defeated by Alexander he was riding the largest elephant and best trained in his kingdom. Maybe a similar size to
RTW's Cataphract Elephant?
They must be very disciplined, these elephants will not run amok even as close to as easily as others, because
there would no option to hit the " self-destruct" button for a general.
MERCENARIES
--Band of Champions
In Central India there were mercenaries that supposedly drank large amounts of booze, then had their
elephants do the same. Simply put, they are Elephant Berserkers and are said to have never lost a battle. Needless to say, it would make for a very interesting unit.
They will lack archers (like you want plastered bowmen on a tanked elephant in your army), but will make up for it in melee attack, durability, and the ability to cause terror in all units . They should be very expensive and hard to control.
--Gada Infantry ( Gadadhar = "Armed with Gada")
A Gada is essentially a two-handed metal mace. It was obviously very heavy and required strong men to wield it.
These warriors will have a good attack and charge. They can break most infantry, and do well against
heavily armored infantry. They wear a cuirass,pauldrons, upper arm bands, with gauntlets and metal skull cap helmet.
On a sidenote, Gadadhar is the name of one of my cousins.
For those of you unaware, India still has ( to this day) folks living in a hunter/gather lifestyle and they were used in Ancient
India as mercenaries. They are not held in high regard.
--Tribal Axemen
A nearly naked axemen that can hide in many places along the battle field. Bonus against elephants. They wear
cloth around their waist and a small feather headress.
--Tribal archers
fast moving bowmen that can hide almost anywhere on the battlefield. They have a knife for melee. They wear
cloth around their waist and a small feather headress.
--Tribal skirmishers
Indian tribes have always given their allegiance to one crown or another, and are invaluable for the stealth
they give any army. They throw short javelins or darts at the enemy, and have a knife for melee. They only wear
cloth around their waist and a small feather headress.
Sources:
"A Military History of Ancient India" By Gurcharin Singh Sandhu
"India: A History" By John Keay
Online Sanskrit-Tamil-Pahlavi Dictionary:
http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/
PROMETHEUS
08-14-2005, 11:55
Thanks RaMAREDDY THIS Will be highly precious to my mod , I have one more favour to ask for tought , I need some visual references for the units that are more elaboraTE than a foot archer .... I think you said my reconstruction of war chariots is quite good isn't it ? Anyway I made to it an upgrade I will show you if you ask , for the other units , the more visuals I get the easier is to me reconstruct those units.....thanlks again .... :bow:
PROMETHEUS
09-03-2005, 16:43
Ksatrya Archers....
https://img223.imageshack.us/img223/7471/11pl2.jpg
PROMETHEUS
09-14-2005, 01:33
Mauryan Longbowmen....
https://img355.imageshack.us/img355/8537/13dv2.jpg
Mouzafphaerre
09-14-2005, 11:15
.
Good job as usual Prom. ~:)
.
Alexanderofmacedon
09-14-2005, 14:00
This is great guys! Keep it up!
BTW: I'm half Indian ~;)
ramareddy
09-19-2005, 08:16
Excellent work, I especially like the Mauryan Longbowmen.
Edit: I just noticed the incredible amount of chest hair. Very accurate.
Alexanderofmacedon
09-20-2005, 22:34
You know if the kingdoms of India were united they would have been the superpower in ancient times. I'm fairly sure of that...
PROMETHEUS
09-21-2005, 16:09
at this time the india was under the control of the great Maurya Empire.....
Mauryan Skirmishers
https://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8325/19lo.jpg
Alexanderofmacedon
09-21-2005, 22:59
I like those shields...
ramareddy
09-26-2005, 06:58
I have some pictures you would like, but I can't seem to post them, please PM me your e-mail, and I'll get them to you by tomorrow
Suraknar
10-08-2005, 19:47
Excelent Post Rajput!
And very nice topic indeed, one that may even Inspire to a "Gengis Khan:Total War" ?
From Japan to Indonesia to India and Pakistan and the north plains of Mongolia and Siberia and to Korea! That would be an awesome setting! And Just Immagine the Factions! From all the wonderfull Warriors and Kingdoms of India to Mongol Cavalry to Chinese Infantry to Japan's Early Samurai, to Thai Warriors!
That would just be fantastic!
Alexanderofmacedon
10-08-2005, 20:24
Make it!~;)
Suraknar
10-09-2005, 16:10
Make it!~;)
heh, easyer said than done :P
I was refering to something CA could do actually...something like that is really enormous...
India only can make a game of its own with all the variety and diversity in culture and long History...same goes for China, as it did also for Japan in STW...
I just read the thread about India:Total War in the Forge, and that sounds great!
Alexanderofmacedon
10-09-2005, 17:11
Proud of my heritage!~D
Suraknar
10-09-2005, 22:13
Yep, as am I, being half Greek and all ;)
So from which area of India is you half Indian Familly?
Alexanderofmacedon
10-09-2005, 22:17
South. Current day Madras.
Suraknar
10-09-2005, 23:02
Oh nice, and nice to meet you as well :)
My half familly are Athenians.
Alexanderofmacedon
10-10-2005, 04:10
Oh, cool. Owls PWN!~D
Excellent thread Rajput indeed, I'm glad someone started a thread about Indian history, sad that no one has come back to it since two years;
I would however, like to add, that while the image of many charioteers fighting is impressive and all, however, the chariots were never used extensively. For one, they could be used properly only in the flat plains, and secondly, far as my knowladge goes, chariot combat went out alongwith the mythic age.
Mounted warriors on elephants infact were most common, and indeed, a king measure of wealth was done by the number of elephants he owned.
Thirdly most of combat history we read, specially that of the pre-sultanate era is rather obscure and inaccurate. The hero's are highlighted and their deeds are exxagerated; Infact that picture which interests Sigurd Fafnesbane so much is indeed from one of the greatest and oldest Indian epics, out of the mythic era, the Mahabharata, and depicts a scene from the battle of Kurukshetra. The man with the wheel in his hand, is the Hindu God Krishna, and he should be according to myth be holding a Chakra insted of the wheel.
I hope people will be back considering ETW is coming up, and India is a major faction in there.......too bad both Rajput and Rama Reddy seem to have left the guild............
Here's a little something new, Rajput has written about one of the fiercest warrior castes of Northern India, namely, the Rajputs, another sect of warriors, who were more of religious warriors, like the Christian Templars, were the Khalsa sect, who were the millitary arm of Sikhism......
The foremost and the most warlike of the Khalsa were the nearly fanatical Akali Warriors, who were in action even until the begining of the 20th centuary.
https://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5066/sikhakalibo3.jpg
Akali Warriors
Legendary for their cavalry, these guys didn't like surrendering. Huns with tulbands :beam:
Got me the oxford guide to military history for a wopping amount of 10 euro, idiots is worth hundreds of them but I don't complain. If you want me to look something up for you it's a good source.
Thanks for diggin this gem up again. I enjoyed reading this the first time it was posted and a reread is definately in order.
Agreed. Rajput has written very well about Indian history. Furthermore, if you've got any particular questions please post them right here. Unless someone else answers it, I'll do my best to provide correct replies. :beam:
Furious Mental
03-04-2008, 09:33
Would anyone be at all interested to see scans of the military scenes in the Genghis Khan miniatures (essentially an early Mughal picture book about the Mongols which in fact depicts life and warfare in Mughal India)? I will happily upload and post them but not if no one cares since that would be a waste of time.
That would be nice. Please upload them when you get time.
Furious Mental
03-05-2008, 04:04
The images are quite large, apologies to those on dial up.
https://img178.imageshack.us/img178/2039/img037ub6.th.jpg (https://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img037ub6.jpg)
https://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2755/img038sa8.th.jpg (https://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img038sa8.jpg)
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/9991/img039xm4.th.jpg (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img039xm4.jpg)
https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5216/img043bu2.th.jpg (https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img043bu2.jpg)
https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9185/img041xh7.th.jpg (https://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img041xh7.jpg)
https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/5231/img042co3.th.jpg (https://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img042co3.jpg)
https://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3535/img044af9.th.jpg (https://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img044af9.jpg)
https://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4458/img045lb7.th.jpg (https://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img045lb7.jpg)
https://img527.imageshack.us/img527/1937/img040jn3.th.jpg (https://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img040jn3.jpg)
https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1460/img046pw7.th.jpg (https://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img046pw7.jpg)
https://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8585/img047jb5.th.jpg (https://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img047jb5.jpg)
https://img127.imageshack.us/img127/8127/img048lv8.th.jpg (https://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img048lv8.jpg)
https://img259.imageshack.us/img259/6526/img049ke9.th.jpg (https://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img049ke9.jpg)
https://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9808/img050ln1.th.jpg (https://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img050ln1.jpg)
Rhyfelwyr
03-10-2008, 21:38
Wow...
I'm so used to the European and Far East military games that are produced for the mass market I never realised how interesting and diverse militaries were throughout the rest of the world.
BTW how did you become a Senior Member with 58 posts?:inquisitive: (bribery and corruption...)
:clown:
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