View Full Version : Faction reapearance's the cause
gaelic cowboy
10-25-2003, 04:33
We have all had it happen a nice empire game going smooth when suddenly a lost heir come's on the scene just as your about to launch a major offensive. What i'm wondering is the reapearance totally random or is it based on a member of the royal line that was not an heir meaning the kings brother if so then it could be controled by ensureing you kill any royal generals too. Of course that doesnt explain how it happens 100 year's later but i was thinking if you removed any general with say an eygptian name from your english army would this prevent it.
HopAlongBunny
10-25-2003, 10:29
I think its just a game "mechanism". Anytime there are rebel provinces there is a chance of an eliminated faction re-appearing in one of them.
It seems (to me) that any province a faction has controlled in the past is a candidate for respawning that faction. Keeping the map clear of rebels will keep factions from coming back...hard to do sometimes, and your trade with the rebels might be too good to screw up with a war http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Factions can only reappear in provinces they once controlled and only during a limited time period. The time is limited to the life span of any heir alive, but not of age, when the faction was eliminated. The province also has to be a revolt possibility.
So lets say you are Spain and kill the Almohads quickly, then any of the north African and southern Spanish provinces are capable of having a re-emergence for up to 100 years after you killed them off. My oldest king got to 96 so thats the time span I allow, assuming there was a 1 year old heir at elimination. If you can keep all provinces previously owned by the Almohads out of rebellion for that time then they will not re-emerge. Province rebellion is checked first and then re-emergence chance, so it is possible to see a rebellion without re-emergence, or one with re-emergence and no rebellion or one with both on any given turn. Keep loyalty above 150% and you should have no troubles whatsoever.
Once you get large and control a good portion of the map rebellion chances jump and are much more likely.
Generals are generals and have no more likelyhood of causing a rebelion or re-emergence of their previous faction than their current loyalty to you. Unloyal generals will rebel and become rebels or may join a emerging faction, but that is due to their loyalty, not their name and previous allegiance.
The Wizard
10-25-2003, 21:47
Well I don't think it has anything to do with a real unnoticed heir - I've had campaigns where I destroy, for instance, the Turks in 1150 (just a year http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif), and then they appear 200 years later... now that's one OLD brother.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
You sure that the Turks didn't appear a couple of time earlier?
Because from what a dev (I think it was Gil) told me there is a max of 60 (or so) years you have to fear a faction will reappear. And just keep loyalty above 120% then it won't happen (factions can come back when loyalty is below 120% so they don't need rebellions).
Faction reappearances are usually reactionary. Which means some sort of rebellion. Keeping a province happy and content, prevents reappearances.
The Wizard
10-25-2003, 22:24
I'm quite sure, actually. Well, ok, they reappeared before that, but that was still easily 100 years before.
Quote[/b] ]Anytime there are rebel provinces there is a chance of an eliminated faction re-appearing in one of them.
I'm sure the spanish have ofetn reappeared in my provinces but it could be as Kraxis said, under 120%. I was probably at about 115%...
Quote[/b] (Zone @ Oct. 26 2003,01:40)]
Quote[/b] ]Anytime there are rebel provinces there is a chance of an eliminated faction re-appearing in one of them.
I'm sure the spanish have ofetn reappeared in my provinces but it could be as Kraxis said, under 120%. I was probably at about 115%...
No, never happened to me. Must ne under 110%, and to stay a turn or two.
It was a dev that told me so... But he didn't tell me how it worked, so it could very well be that at 115% it is very slim. But that was the figure I was told.
HopAlongBunny
10-26-2003, 17:52
I agree with Wizzy about the time period. I don't think there is one.
Brutal DLX
10-27-2003, 10:29
Wizzy just stated they re-appeared before, so ..duh
Of course the mechanism is reset when the faction re-emerges, and if they are eliminated again will keep on re-emerging as long as they have heirs and rebellions take place...
Simply put: whenever they can http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
The Wizard
10-27-2003, 12:57
Then, in my case, they never can, because I don't like rebellions, and they'll just die the moment they declare their independence. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Quote[/b] ]Then, in my case, they never can, because I don't like rebellions, and they'll just die the moment they declare their independence.
I'd like to see you put down a 10000 plus man rebellion and no it wasnt the arrival of the Golden Horde it was the Spanish reemerging with half the Iberian peninsula and Algeria and Morrocco. I did suppress it but not immediately and took about 10 years as I had problems elsewhere to deal with
Australianus
10-28-2003, 07:43
Spies, priests, province development and enough troops to keep loyalty up help. Easier said than done at times. Also some areas are more prone to rebel.
el_slapper
10-28-2003, 15:26
I'd just add that the province can even be the target of a crusade that never made it. In one of my games, french launched a crusade in Finland(not wise when you're getting dominated), and were exterminated BEFORE the crusade reached Finland.
Some years later, France did reappear...in Finland Way fun. I've then thought of that faction as Fins, that was more accurate
The Wizard
10-28-2003, 16:50
Quote[/b] (oaty @ Oct. 27 2003,21:22)]
Quote[/b] ]Then, in my case, they never can, because I don't like rebellions, and they'll just die the moment they declare their independence.
I'd like to see you put down a 10000 plus man rebellion and no it wasnt the arrival of the Golden Horde it was the Spanish reemerging with half the Iberian peninsula and Algeria and Morrocco. I did suppress it but not immediately and took about 10 years as I had problems elsewhere to deal with
I'm talking about peasantry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Red Harvest
10-30-2003, 04:57
Couple of things you should consider:
1. The 120% loyalty rule is needed for save games, because saves display loyalty ~20% above what the province actually has (at least on expert.) I've documented this as a bug before, nonetheless it is very important to consider. I just tried a turn where I reloaded and did not get all of my provinces sufficiently above 110%. I had three or four rebellions at the end of the turn. I had played 100 turns or more before this without a single rebellion. In most of those turns I had multiple provinces with loyalty in the 100 to 110% range--yet no rebellions.
2. When I conquer a province I always execute all of the leaders. I assume this prevents an heir from escaping (when he would have no province to return to.) It also might prevent a good general/former governor from leading a rebellion later.
3. Quickly seize and conquer provinces held by rebels of any province that ever housed eliminated factions--even if there is no strategic reason to take the province (Arabia, Scotland, Finland, etc.) Otherwise, you can cound on a re-emergence in the rebel land.
4. A very few provinces seem to defy some of the rules. For some reason Norway (and only Norway) has rebelled with excellent loyalty, but a small garrison (both above and below 100 men.) I've seen this in Norway several times...it's almost like an Easter Egg.
Quote[/b] ]4. A very few provinces seem to defy some of the rules. For some reason Norway (and only Norway) has rebelled with excellent loyalty, but a small garrison (both above and below 100 men.) I've seen this in Norway several times...it's almost like an Easter Egg.
Well any province with less than 100 men will eventually rebel no matter what the loyalty is
Ironside
10-30-2003, 09:08
Citera[/b] (oaty @ Okt. 29 2003,23:26)]Well any province with less than 100 men will eventually rebel no matter what the loyalty is
That isn't true, my provinces is often only guarded by the govenor and if the govenor is a good general not even that. I don't even have a spy in those provinces unless they are prone to rebel. And I play expert. Loyalty is usually around 150% with very high taxes.
Red Harvest
10-31-2003, 04:10
Quote[/b] (oaty @ Oct. 29 2003,23:26)]
Quote[/b] ]4. A very few provinces seem to defy some of the rules. For some reason Norway (and only Norway) has rebelled with excellent loyalty, but a small garrison (both above and below 100 men.) I've seen this in Norway several times...it's almost like an Easter Egg.
Well any province with less than 100 men will eventually rebel no matter what the loyalty is
Not from what I've seen. While I usually keep 100 or more in provinces, I can only think of one other occasion where a rebellion *might* have been caused by having fewer than 100 (except for Norway that rebels at the drop of a hat.)
The under 100 rebellions aren't exactly that, they are Bandit uprisings. Nasty ones early in the game. But they have little to do with loyalty, but as the game progresses you will see fewer of them in your old lands. I have often left numerous provinces empty for more than a hundred years, and still not suffered Bandits.
The Wizard
10-31-2003, 19:28
I've tried to insinuate a Turkish rebellion for twenty years now, and nothing has happened. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
(I want a challenge by fighting Ottomans http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif)
Degtyarev14.5
11-01-2003, 06:25
Question:
When a faction re-appears, does the emergent leader - the new King, Khalifah, Sultan, whatever - come with a complement of premature heirs?
It strikes me as ridiculous that a "faction" - which is synonymous with "family bloodline" in this particular game - can keep on popping up every twenty-thirty years. Even the continual re-appearance of Mr Pope gets silly after a while.
Austen Powers says it best: "WHY WON'T YOU DIE?" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
A.
Red Harvest
11-01-2003, 18:21
Quote[/b] (ArseClown @ Oct. 31 2003,23:25)]Question:
When a faction re-appears, does the emergent leader - the new King, Khalifah, Sultan, whatever - come with a complement of premature heirs?
It strikes me as ridiculous that a "faction" - which is synonymous with "family bloodline" in this particular game - can keep on popping up every twenty-thirty years. Even the continual re-appearance of Mr Pope gets silly after a while.
Austen Powers says it best: "WHY WON'T YOU DIE?" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
A.
I'm not sure about the answer to the question. I don't get that many re-emergences. Usually it seems to be a single new faction leader (but his children might be close to 16). I suppose it is random and automatically generates some sort of family, except when you have let some heirs live. It makes some sense that he might already have kids that would become heirs when he layed claim to the faction crown. Look at your own faction's bloodlines. After a hundred years there are lots of uncles that are no longer in the main line. The game doesn't generate heirs for them, but the lines would be out there.
Actually, one could argue that it is reasonably historical to have frequent re-emergences. Distant cousins and intermarried lines would often lay claim to the throne. This was more likely to happen if the current sovereign was weak, or had a less than happy populace. Once a population gets it in their collective heads that they should be an independent power, it can take a long time to quell that.
If you follow the rules I've given you can almost completely end re-emergences in your own territories. The big one to look out for is the "false loyalty from loading a save game" bug. On loading saves I never allow any territory to fall below 120% on that first turn--after that they can drop to 100% without trouble. One possible exception I forgot to note: I've seen one instance where a re-emergence in a neighboring province resulted in a stack appearing in a border province of mine that appeared to have sufficient loyalty. In general, if I conquer all the areas ever held by a given faction, it never reappears. In my current game as the Poles in High Era/Expert I've wiped out the Russians, Golden Horde, Egyptians, and Turks. None have reappeared. I always run all taxes up to "Very High" as soon as I can maintain 100% loyalty while doing so.
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