View Full Version : War with the Papacy
Yesterday, playing has the HRE, I owned Genoa, Milan, Tusacany and Venice. The rest of Italy was the territory of the Papacy. By 1200, the Pope decided to use its signle ship to sink one of mine. Unfortunately his prayers were not answered and his ship was sunk. Since 1204 was approaching, I attacked his three provinces.
I thought I would get immediately excommunicated just has before but no I received the usual message : The Pope has you to cease war with the papacy within two years, etc ...
After that it became easy, I just withdrew from the Papal states, killed the Pope besieged in Napoli and keept Rome.
Nice, I tought GA accomplished but no more crusade.... But no not even that, when the Pope was killed, the war just stopped The Papacy is thus limited to the Papal States with an army of 60 urban militiamen, 100 peasants and 6 balistas ... No need to keep a huge army to fight the ever-reappearing Pope and Crusades are on their way ...
A bit too easy if you ask me ...
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I never eliminate the pope, but let him in the stay in the Papal States. I attack his domain when a pope is old enough to die quickly, and I take what's valuable: Rome and, if he owns it, Napoli.
btw, what's the importance of 1204 when you attack? it's just a change of era http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
1204 is the date when you get the GA points for the "Holy Roman Empire" (own Milan, Rome, Tusacny and Naples).
By the way,I did not get the message saying that I got the points, got the "Homeland" and "Drag nach Oost" ones and that was all. Cannot tell if the points have been added.
Oh, I forgot about GA
Can't you do the math, think of how many glory points you had before and add the ones gained through Drang nach osten and see if there's any difference? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I could perhaps if I can find an old save game. In any event I think the points are to be counted once again by +/-1250. I will check what I can do that next week-end (unless someone comes with an answer before that).
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The Wizard
10-27-2003, 12:55
Drang nach Osten... fun on ice. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I personally don't like the HRE as my faction - too much loyalty problems and such trivialities.
HRE is really my favorite faction.
Nicest GA goals after France;
Cool units (Early: Swabian swordmen, mounted crossbowmen, teutonic knights and seargents; High: Swiss halbardiers; Late: gothic knight);
Quite a good number of historical generals;
An historical claim to world domintation (seems a tiny bit more realistic to see the Germans masters of Europe rather than the Danes, Sicililans or Polish ...);
Most of all, the sweet feeling of revenge when, after being so weak that you pray that noboady attacks you for 100 years, you start going for world conquest, getting rid of those arrogant French, Polish, Danish, Hungarian and Italian kings one after the other. (there are of course the not so few times when you lose after 15 years and get reduces to two or three provinces due to war and all fronts and mass rebellion ..)
If you start the game early, once you have reached (usally by about 1220) Flanders on the (Noth west), Toulouse (South West), Sicily (South), Norway (North), Lithuania and Kiev (North East), Constantinople (South East), time for a stop to tech up a bit or you never get to use those nice late units except against hordes of peasants with clubs ...
Doug-Thompson
10-27-2003, 21:36
I never mess with the Pope -- He's too much of a helpful affliction to my Catholic enemies.
Even Muslim players have to take the Pope into account, however. For instance, excommunicated Christian factions are often easy pickings.
Kristaps
11-03-2003, 17:33
As HRE, I take Flanders right after the first French attack on a german province (usually happens before 1100) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Teaches them Frenchies a lesson http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
BTW, as HRE, it's fun to defeat hordes of french archers and hobilars with urban milita in the woods of Lorraine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif There was an occasion, when even the French king bit the dust behind an oak tree, urban militia halberd stuck deep into his stubborn head...
Jxrc, I have to agree...
The HRE is simply the most fun. In my current game I'm just getting out of trouble that started after a few years. I have been at war with the Danes, Poles, French and Hungarians (by wild luck not the Italians). But they are all still alive here in the late Early. Why? Because they ganged up on me. When I was just about to beat one another attacked.
The Danes managed to hold Saxony for 40 years for instance.
And because of the lack of loyalty I could not let myself get excommed.
Well, no need to tell you I'm outteched by most. Those French Foot Knights (modded the game) have me fearing their armies every time we face off.
Normally (but I am always playing normal or hard, never expert), the AI does not produce lot a good troops (French use archers, militiamen and peasents, Polish use woodsmen and slav warriors). Therefore if you can hold on until you are able to produce feudal sergeants, mounted sergeants, and man-at-arms, you are on the safe side. Once I am at war with one faction, I always try to destroy it asap otherwise your neighbours will want to join the party ... getting rid of Danemark takes two turns and it is not to tough to get rid of the Poles in a few turns either. Sending the French back to Brittany (with the automatic cease-fire once you have done so) is doable ... Italy is much more tricky if they manage to retreat to Corsica or Sardignia, in that case since you have no boat,it will take ages to get to them.
The big handicap as the German is that you need a long time before you get any real cavalry (mounted seargents, farm1, castle2, spear2, horse2)whereas the other get some after a few turn (holibars and cavalrymen= castle1, farm1,horse1). Thus the other factions (French, English, Hungarian, Danes - I think the Polish do not have cavalrymen) start producing cavalry after 8 turns while you need 26 (if a building a keep takes 8 years). The only neighbouring faction with the same problem, the Italian already have a keep built in Venice at the start of the game.
Needless to say that I do not enjoy chasing horse archers with spearmen ...
Brutal DLX
11-04-2003, 12:21
If you need cav, hire a few mercenaries. Not too many, though, as you always have the loyalty problem.
Hm.. don't you start with a keep in Swabia? Anyway, you need archer/spear armies at first, as in Shogun. They are still effective.
In my GA campaigns, I'll never expand other than declaring war on the "Italian rebels" to take my provinces back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
Also I'll take the drive to the East provinces if an opportunity occurs..
But I often don't expand at all, seeing it as a challenge to protect what I have, and believe me, even if you can keep peace with your neighbours for 100 years, once they are attacking you, you are condemned to win, because by then your king likely has a 2 crown influence and a single lost battle will trigger a civil war http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. I like it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
No keep in Swabia, just a fort (jsut like i swizerland and burgundy)
Archers and mercenaries are expensive at the beginning of the game but that is what makes the challenge. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Brutal DLX
11-04-2003, 13:21
No keep? Then I was always real quick to build one there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Archers are ok, 50ish support cost, methinks. And you need them. Two Druzhinas can eat a lot of dosh, but then you have 120 horsies on your side, who can crush anyhting but spears.
Quote[/b] (Jxrc @ Nov. 03 2003,11:16)]Normally (but I am always playing normal or hard, never expert), the AI does not produce lot a good troops (French use archers, militiamen and peasents, Polish use woodsmen and slav warriors). Therefore if you can hold on until you are able to produce feudal sergeants, mounted sergeants, and man-at-arms, you are on the safe side. Once I am at war with one faction, I always try to destroy it asap otherwise your neighbours will want to join the party ... getting rid of Danemark takes two turns and it is not to tough to get rid of the Poles in a few turns either. Sending the French back to Brittany (with the automatic cease-fire once you have done so) is doable ... Italy is much more tricky if they manage to retreat to Corsica or Sardignia, in that case since you have no boat,it will take ages to get to them.
The big handicap as the German is that you need a long time before you get any real cavalry (mounted seargents, farm1, castle2, spear2, horse2)whereas the other get some after a few turn (holibars and cavalrymen= castle1, farm1,horse1). Thus the other factions (French, English, Hungarian, Danes - I think the Polish do not have cavalrymen) start producing cavalry after 8 turns while you need 26 (if a building a keep takes 8 years). The only neighbouring faction with the same problem, the Italian already have a keep built in Venice at the start of the game.
Needless to say that I do not enjoy chasing horse archers with spearmen ...
Well, as I said I have modded the game. No Peasants can be trained (don't like the big Peasant armies), Denmark starts with a larger army and various other changes that has made for some interesting AI choices.
But it seems the removal of the Peasants has been the best choice yet (better quality of AI troops).
I never managed to kick out the Danes in the first place due to two things. The Danish army had better troops, several princes and the king, as well as a significant number of Vikings. The other reason was because I had no general that could match the Danish king, so the Vikings steamrolled my army when they attacked (and I lost my best troops then) and when I tried to retake Saxony the year after I got trounced again as my forces were too insignificant in number and my general too weak. I destroyed a significant part of their army, but couldn't attack the next year and the year after that it was too late (excomm hanging over my head if I attacked).
France has built two Castles and thus two provinces that can produce Foot Knights.
The Polish has luckily been racked by Civil War twice now, so I have managed to take Denmark and confined the Danes to Pommerania. The Pope has naturally stopped me (still too low loyalty to try for an Excomm).
At the same time I have retaken Friesland from France and I'm planning an attack on Normandy, but that would open me for an attack on Burgundy with their powerful knightly armies.
But I seriously need to get out of my problems now, and get some Swabians before Early is over.
This is one of my best campaigns yet. The other campagin that has been as good was a German campagin as well... That is why I love them.
It seems we are not playing the same game and that the one you play is much tougher than mine.
I just play standard patched VI and the French sure love those peasants and archers in my game.
As for the Danes, they have become more of a challenge than under the original version of the game (unpatched MTW) since:
- cavalry has been improved generally;
- spearmen have become less effective (in MTW pre-patch all the spearmen units I trained and 1 Valour even though the master spearmen had not been build, feudal sergeants had 1 or 2).
Before VI, getting rid of them only took one units of spearmen for every unit of royal knights they had. Now it is bit tougher ...
Seems like I am really not good at battles since playing on normal or hard I still get, after more than a year of practice, my ass kicked by the AI ... Still very good fun though. I am always wondering how some people manage to beat the crap of immense armies with a few archers and spearmen. As far as I am concerned, if I have about the same amount of units on the field and a commander of about the same level, I will win. If it is not the case, I still have a good chance of being humiliated ...
Good suggestion to make to keep the game challenging : not being too good at battle. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Well, it is certainly tougher than most games I have played, perhaps I'm just lucky... I play at Hard too, I don't like the +4 to Morale at Expert.
The reason we can win impossible battles is because we target the weakest troops with out best, and then make them run, when they run the rest of their army will often follow.
I always try to do that but I usually succeed only against hordes of peasents, spearmen and the like (low morale fellows). If the computer has gone feudal (seargents, men-at-arms, militia seargent, etc.) its troops do not get panicked if they see peasants running away ...
But as I say, I am not very good at battles (moreover I always use the same tactics ... spear wall in the middle, arches behind it and whatever else I have to flank ... if the spear wall breaks too soon I am in deep "trouble", it often happen against if the opposite wall is made of Byzantine infantrymen ...)
Mega Dux Bob
11-04-2003, 21:23
Quote[/b] (Jxrc @ Nov. 03 2003,11:16)]The big handicap as the German is that you need a long time before you get any real cavalry (mounted seargents, farm1, castle2, spear2, horse2)whereas the other get some after a few turn (holibars and cavalrymen= castle1, farm1,horse1). Thus the other factions (French, English, Hungarian, Danes - I think the Polish do not have cavalrymen) start producing cavalry after 8 turns while you need 26 (if a building a keep takes 8 years). The only neighbouring faction with the same problem, the Italian already have a keep built in Venice at the start of the game.
Royal Palace gets you Royal Knights, which at Early can move at a decent speed and while pricey can tear threw Hobliers.
Quote[/b] (Mega Dux Bob @ Nov. 04 2003,14:23)]Royal Palace gets you Royal Knights, which at Early can move at a decent speed and while pricey can tear threw Hobliers.
Correct but, even if you build them in your most advance province at the beginning of the game, Swabia, you need to build castle2 (8 turns) and royal court2 (4turns). Twelve turns thus and they are often not affordable that early. But indeed one or two units of those can help.
It seems it is the end for me now... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
The game has made it impossible for me.
Took Flanders... ahhh... Nice.
The Poles got their rear quarters handed to them in the Civil War and they pretty much only had Lithuania and Silecia (GAH, that Polish province closest to Germany), then Novgorod took Lithuania and the Byzantines (powerhouse) took Poland, effectively blocking out the Poles. So the Poles attacked me in Bohemia and defeated me in a bloody battle. But I responded quickly and took both provinces while killing the Polish royal family.
At this time I had built a few ships for trade (money... I need money), but the Danes had a few more ships and I got a peace with them. It was looking very well for me untill I found Tolouse too good to be true (had crushed the French army when it had tried to take Provence from me), so I attacked and won. But at the same time the Hunganrians attacked both Austria and Bohemia, winning both and killing my Emperor (he died valiantly cutting down enemies in a last ditch charge).
In Tolouse Aragon desided to play along and got a lot of help from the one power I had hoped to keep out... The Byzantines. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif We had had a small incident the year before on the seas, and I had lost a ship off the coast of Flanders but I had hoped to get a peace with them before real hostilities erupted. But no such luck. I prudently retreated my inferior force.
I kicked the Hungarians out of Bohemia in another bloody battle (my forces were getting depleted), but now the Byzantines launched a series of attacks from Poland and landed in Provence with a massive force lead by the Emperor.
I managed to get all my lands back (and getting a good ransom from the Byzantine and Hunganrian forces... very much needed money), besides Provence that is firmly in Byzantine hands. And here I am... in an impossible situation facing pretty much the entire world with nothing too much (and the Danes broke our peace again siking my last ships).
I haven't got any generals that can match the powerful Byzantine heirs and generals, or their massively armoured Kataphraktoi (when they are Valour 5-7 you now to stay away).
Brutal DLX
11-05-2003, 11:24
Oh my. Seems you bit off more than you can chew. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Seriously, about the Danes, they almost never attack me if I keep an almost full stack of troops in Saxony. Perhaps they attacked because you modded them. About the peasant armies, I only see them in the beginning, the AI slowly replaces them by better troops in all of my games. Perhaps because I don't play that offensively, thus giving them time to develop. Also the Danes always build Vikings galore, once they landed in Normandy led by the King and about 20 viking and then some archer units. Nasty Especially when the terrain works for them.
I modded my game too in some minor points, giving Sweden to the Danes right from the get-go and also enabling Swabians for High, just so they have a better impact on the game.
I think it was a risky move to build ships when you are already in a bad financial situation and at war with many countries. They cost too much and you have nobody to trade with because the enemy ships will try to scuttle yours in a hurry. Better to build farmland and do raiding.
As for the Byz, try to hit them where they ain't. Ie, retreat and try to get in their backs. Attack small garrison provinces, try to trap their high star generals, should the AI foolishly deploy them without a big army in some province. Avoid the big battles unless you have a bridge or anything working for you. Build spears and AP units, along with missile support, that's cheap and will do the job. As long as you keep the loyalties of your troops at a reasonable level, you don't need to fold this campaign yet.
The Danes train Vikings galore because they cost 131 florins for them, that is very cheap for such a powerful unit. And that was what I faced. I didn't have time to built up my forces to face such an army, but perhaps the attack ocurred because I had to move some troops from Saxony to Friesland (I actually had troops moving up from the south but they would leave a window of one year) because the French were massing in Flanders, and knowing the French I had to move to stop it (like it helped).
I built those ships for a simple reason (I was only at war with France at the moment) to get trade from Flanders and Denmark, which would boost my poor coffers greatly.
I can't hit the Byz where they are weak. I only face them in Provence and Poland, and there they have superior numbers of troops. Either province has enough troops to attack at least two of my provinces and still have enough at home to brush aside any of my counterattacks.
I have the best troops, plenty of FMAA, Mounted X-bows, Militia Sergeants, Feudal Sergeants and Mounted Sergeants and a few Feudal Foot Knights. But my fear is that the Byzantine Kats will roll over my forces like they were not there. The Provence army has no less than 7 high valour Kats. I simply can't halt them should they attack.
I forgot to mention last time that Novgorod attacked me too in Prussia, I defeated them, but it is not fun to be at war with them too. They have everything we can call Russian all the way down to Khazar. Oh how I wish the Turks would attack them and the Byzantines get into a bloody war with the Hungarians.
Bob the Insane
11-05-2003, 16:23
Last time I played as the HRE, all went swimmingly for about 100 years.. Protected the borders, kept the peace, invaded and held some rebel lands, even got a crusade under way..
Then, civil war My empire split in two... with loads of contested provinces.. AND... I chose the wrong faction to back (the present Emperor) because there was a second civil war amoung my remaing followers the next year
So what was a glorious empire was reduced to a couple of provinces in the center of rebel lands...
o_loompah_the_delayer
11-05-2003, 17:12
Quote[/b] (Jxrc @ Nov. 04 2003,14:33)]
Quote[/b] (Mega Dux Bob @ Nov. 04 2003,14:23)]Royal Palace gets you Royal Knights, which at Early can move at a decent speed and while pricey can tear threw Hobliers.
Correct but, even if you build them in your most advance province at the beginning of the game, Swabia, you need to build castle2 (8 turns) and royal court2 (4turns). Twelve turns thus and they are often not affordable that early. But indeed one or two units of those can help.
Mounted crossbowmen are quite effective cav and I think you get them quite early as HRE with archer/farm/horse breeder total of 6 years?
They are good at chasing off routers and flank/ rear charges and also have pretty good defence.
I also like HRE but after Turk/ English and Danes.
o_loompah_the_delayer
11-05-2003, 17:13
Quote[/b] (Jxrc @ Nov. 04 2003,14:33)]
Quote[/b] (Mega Dux Bob @ Nov. 04 2003,14:23)]Royal Palace gets you Royal Knights, which at Early can move at a decent speed and while pricey can tear threw Hobliers.
Correct but, even if you build them in your most advance province at the beginning of the game, Swabia, you need to build castle2 (8 turns) and royal court2 (4turns). Twelve turns thus and they are often not affordable that early. But indeed one or two units of those can help.
Mounted crossbowmen are quite effective cav and I think you get them quite early as HRE with archer/farm/horse breeder total of 6 years?
They are good at chasing off routers and flank/ rear charges and also have pretty good defence.
I also like HRE but after Turk/ English and Danes.
King John II
11-05-2003, 17:42
Very nice campaign. Having your back to the wall is much more fun. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I am just finishing up a game as the Poles and had been thinking I would try the Spanish in high. But after reading this thread I will go for a GRE campaign next.
I play unmodded so I am not going to face the tough problems you describe. But it still sounds like a challenge.
I, too, am no great shakes as a battle comander. I have read some good stuff on the boards describing how to control troops well but I have not really tried to master the interface yet.
So I base my approach on having more and better troops and using autocalc a lot.
But I aspire to running a lean, mean, fighting machine of an empire, training only the minimum of troops required and going into most battles with an expectation of requiring good tactics to win through and acquiring lots of those battlefield VnVs.
But that can wait until I've tried all the factions and GE as well as domination.
Brutal DLX
11-06-2003, 10:36
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Nov. 05 2003,14:48)]The Danes train Vikings galore because they cost 131 florins for them, that is very cheap for such a powerful unit. And that was what I faced. I didn't have time to built up my forces to face such an army, but perhaps the attack ocurred because I had to move some troops from Saxony to Friesland (I actually had troops moving up from the south but they would leave a window of one year) because the French were massing in Flanders, and knowing the French I had to move to stop it (like it helped).
I built those ships for a simple reason (I was only at war with France at the moment) to get trade from Flanders and Denmark, which would boost my poor coffers greatly.
I can't hit the Byz where they are weak. I only face them in Provence and Poland, and there they have superior numbers of troops. Either province has enough troops to attack at least two of my provinces and still have enough at home to brush aside any of my counterattacks.
I have the best troops, plenty of FMAA, Mounted X-bows, Militia Sergeants, Feudal Sergeants and Mounted Sergeants and a few Feudal Foot Knights. But my fear is that the Byzantine Kats will roll over my forces like they were not there. The Provence army has no less than 7 high valour Kats. I simply can't halt them should they attack.
I forgot to mention last time that Novgorod attacked me too in Prussia, I defeated them, but it is not fun to be at war with them too. They have everything we can call Russian all the way down to Khazar. Oh how I wish the Turks would attack them and the Byzantines get into a bloody war with the Hungarians.
Bad bad, but usually when it looks worst, it suddenly can turn around within a few turns. You need to survey the alliance situation. With the Byzantines being so big, it's likely they will lose those allies that are also allied with you should they attack you. Then it's likely that those allies will start attacking the Byzantines too, distracting them. Definitely try to get the Hungarians and other neighbours on your side.
I'd try to avoid the battles unless they corner you. Retreat to your castles, and defend them. If you have at least a keep, that can help reducing those high valour kataphrakts. Also missile troops help immensely against such high valour troops... it also helps to tire them out by letting them chase your Xbow riders. In battle, keep them busy elsewhere while you take care of the rest of their army.
If they advance into your lands, they will sooner or later split up their invading force, then's your time to strike. The only real problem I see is your army loyalty.
And yes, I think Saxony is the better province, I'd rather see the French take Friesland than losing Saxony, and I'm pretty sure that moving your forces out of Saxony prompted the Danish attack.
Well, good luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The Wizard
11-06-2003, 10:54
I have an Italian campaign going in MM 3.12... and talking about the Danes, they are very powerful, and me and the Byzantines are fighting them all over Spain and France, and they are only losing slowly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Not only that, but the Russians have conquered everything as far as Silesia, the Swedes crushed the HRE easy, the English were crushed by the Danes, the French are trapped in Ile de France and Champagne, the Byzantines rolled over the Egyptians and into the Iberian Peninsula and over North Africa after being seriously helped by my Crusades, and the Hungarians are relatibely powerfful It's a very strange SP game... but I don't really like the lack of cav in Italian armies, so sometimes it's boring. =/
kataphraktoi
11-06-2003, 15:22
Possible solution:
Stick the Pope in finland and make sure finland is inasccesible by tweaking the txt files in startpos folder.
Its like sticking him in a nursing home.
And so it happened...
I had a bunch of battles with the Byzantines on my eastern front. I even managed to take Poland until reinforcments kicked me out again (never took the castle).
The Imperial army in Provence is actually locked in. There is no port to get it home with, so the Emperor is in trouble if he doesn't attack me or somebody else.
We eventually agreed that peace was the best choice, and I began to get allies again (I had none before). It seems my Influnce got boosted from the peace accord. I also restored peace with the Danes (getting a princess is good enough), but planned to wipe them out.
Novgorod finally took my enclave to the east, Prussia after a series of deadly battles where I could only reinforce with Slav Warriors (they are lovely in early game) trained there.
The problem with the Byzantines is that I'm outgunned in ranged by their large numbers of Trebz, outclassed in melee by their Kats and outgeneralled by their Rank 7-9 generals against my Rank 1-3 generals. But I'm performing a great recruitment of archers at the moment, I never like being outgunned.
I killed the Danes after a blunder where they laid siege to Hamburg in Saxony. Now I'm ready to attack Novgorod in Prussia... REVENGE But damn them They have landed a great army in Sweden, so I have to send troops to Denmark again (where I'm cranking out Huscarles).
Luckily, or perhaps not, the Turks attacked the Byzantines in Constantinople and took it without a fight. Good that the Byzantines will be preoccupied with them, bad that the Emperor is in Provence with a giant army yearning to get home... home means through me. Also bad that the Turks who are already strong will get even stronger... They should have attacked the Russians.
Daveybaby
11-06-2003, 16:18
Hmmmm.... if the Byzantine emperor is stuck away from the bulk of his empire, then that could mean loyalty problems for the Byzantines. You could try to take advantage of that through the use of spies - incite a few revolts to give them even more to think about http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
The Wizard
11-07-2003, 13:05
Yes but massive stacks of Turcoman Horse and AHC is nothing you want.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Nov. 07 2003,06:05)]Yes but massive stacks of Turcoman Horse and AHC is nothing you want.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Well this has said it all... I don't want that. My army can't deal with it right now.
Also the Byzantine armies are big enough to keep Loyalty up.
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