The Byzantines

[mystic brew]

I had never played as the Byzantines, but decided to give them a whirl.

And they're a boatload of fun. Especially on GA, where you have to defend provinces like Naples, Lesser Armenia and Georgia, which I would abandon in a conquest game.

As always its the precarious early years that are so crucial.

and learning how to handle a totally new army is the funnest part.

I planned the following province developments

1. Constantinople - towards Varangrian guard ASAP.
2. Greece - towards Byzantine infantry.
3. Nicacea - towards Pronoi Allagion.
4. the islands - to get that navy rolling.
5. Trebizond - towards Trebizond Archers and Naptha throwers.
6. Naples - watch towers, forts, town watch - anything to thump out troops - they are going to be isolated for a good 25? or so years.
7. All the rest I plan to leave for later.

My plan was to secure the Eastern side of the Empire with defensive armies of BI, spears and TAs, while using my Kataphracts, VG etc to attack and sieze the Balkans, right up through Hungary. Mmmm... steeeeeeeelll http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

so far, so good - the Hungarian horse archers fell to my Alan merc cavalry and I crippled the Italians by grabbing Venice

But I can't seem to build Alan merc Cavs. How do i get them? I've had to hire them so far...

It's interesting playing a faction without spears - Byzantine infantry rock, but they seem vulnerable to heavy cavalry. Best use seems to be that they are heavily armoured and with good D, so let the enemy come close, then hold the line and let their numbers tell as they chew up spears.

Varagian Guard. Hmmm. these are fantastic troops, but you can't afford to over use them cos of the training time. I don't tend to combine units, I just send them back for re-training (which only takes one year&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Byzantine cavalry. haven't got the balance right with these yet. better than vanilla HAs, but they don't seem to have the punch to justify the price tag... They die too quick.

Kats. I like them, though they get tired soooo very quickly you gotta time the charge right, but even one unit can be a battle changer

[Snowhobbit]

You cant train Alan cav, they can only be hired as mercenaries...

[mystic brew]

but you get one unit of them to start with as the Byzantines, so i thought it might be possible to build them... booo

[monkian]

Byzantines are even more fun with the Wesmod installed- its well worth a try

[brent_james]

Quote[/b] (mystic brew @ Oct. 30 2003,08:39)]but you get one unit of them to start with as the Byzantines, so i thought it might be possible to build them... booo
I found those mercenary cav to be incredibly useful early on, even though it was just one unit. no, you cannot train them.

[Kristaps]

Hey, anyone seen Alan Mercenary cavalry in thier inns lately? I have not noticed them since the VI came out... Is there some building requirement besides an inn to get them now?

[The_Emperor]

Byzantines on GA... Hmm, been a while since I last played as the Byz. I must try that one

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Quote[/b] (mystic brew @ Oct. 30 2003,08:39)]but you get one unit of them to start with as the Byzantines, so i thought it might be possible to build them... booo
The Byzantines historically relied very heavily on mercenaries. Many times they fielded armies almost completely made up of Frankish and Turkish mercenaries. Perhaps not the best idea when you are regularly fighting the Turks and Franks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[The Wizard]

To VG's? I go to cataphracts and then VG's... Cataphracts will be on the battlefield in greater number, and used well are actually superior to VG's http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

BTW Jacque, then fight Franks with Turks and Turks with Franks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mystic brew]

Quote[/b] ]Cataphracts will be on the battlefield in greater number, and used well are actually superior to VG's http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
eh? 60 men vs 40?

I'm not sure I understand...

but what about Byzantine cavalry? any tips, or are they just decent morale horse archers?

[mystic brew]

Quote[/b] (monkian @ Oct. 30 2003,10:54)]Byzantines are even more fun with the Wesmod installed- its well worth a try
why, what are the differences?

[GranCactus]

As the Byzantines, I try to grab Kiev or Khazar as soon as possible. They're rich, for one thing, but more importantly, you can get steppe cav (my favs for running down fleeing enemies) and steppe heavy cav, which I like a lot more than Byz cav.

[Si GeeNa]

Well, in my last memorable experiences as the Byz, I went at the Turks with my Byz Inf. It was good going in a way. The Turks were always dancing with their light stuff but if you are relentless in pushing your men to the fight, the Turks cannot stand up and count against the typical Byz army configuration.

It got somewhat more difficult against the Egyptians though. I remembered having to push through the desert areas against hordes of Ghazis. Tough assignment for any general...

[Fragony]

You should see byzantine cavalry as horse archers that can melee lesser troops like peasants and militia. They are not very usefull when charging, but will be very effective against allready engaged units.

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (mystic brew @ Oct. 30 2003,18:45)]
Quote[/b] ]Cataphracts will be on the battlefield in greater number, and used well are actually superior to VG's http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
eh? 60 men vs 40?

I'm not sure I understand...

but what about Byzantine cavalry? any tips, or are they just decent morale horse archers?
I mean, that VG's, although with units of 60 men, take two years to make. Large numbers of (with the byzantines, well-supported) cataphracts are very effective. Soften them up with TA's or Byz Cav, then pin 'em with Byz Inf, and then flank 'em and go in for the kill with the cats http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

VG's take longer, but they are notoriously hard to send on suicide missions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Quokka]

Quote[/b] (GranCactus @ Oct. 31 2003,08:09)]As the Byzantines, I try to grab Kiev or Khazar as soon as possible. They're rich, for one thing, but more importantly, you can get steppe cav (my favs for running down fleeing enemies) and steppe heavy cav, which I like a lot more than Byz cav.
In unmodded VI I do exactly the same, Steppe Cavalry are the buildable Alans you were looking for and Steppe Heavies have much lower build requirements, upkeep, more grunt all for 50 Florins more than Byzantine Cavalry.

As for the differences in MedMod they are many. The Byz have been totally reworked and their units have been given proper Byz names. Their units and (rough) equivalents are:
Peasants - almost non-existant
Spearmen
Vestiaritae - Byzantine Infantry with Spear Cav bonus
Kontaratoi - heavier, better defense Vestiaritae
Imperial Skutatoi - Pikemen, Mercs
Varangian Guard - Early Varangian Guard
Paramonai - Varangian Guard
Imperial Menavlatoi - Janissary Heavy Infantry, Mercs
Horse Archers
Stratiotai - Fast Byz Lancers
Vardariot - Byz Cavalry
Kataphraktoi - + bows
Pronaioi Allagion
Imperial Kavallarioi - Gothic Knights, Mercs
Steppe Cavalry
Khazar Royal Cavalry
Avar Nobles
Lithuanian Cavalry - Mtd Sgts + bows
Steppe Heavy Cavalry
Alan Mercenary Cavalry - Mercs
Germanic Knights - Feudal Knights, Mercs
Psiloi - Trebizond Archers
Bulgarian Brigands
Mourtatoi - Janissary Infantry
Arbalester
Handgunner
Arquebusier
Naptha Thrower

These units are available to them mostly throughout their homelands. The Merc units are buildable in Mercenary provinces that are scattered throughout the map. Some are restricted, like the Imperial units, to specific Byzantine homelands. Some are restricted to other areas, Lithuanian Cavalry, Steppe Cavalry etc.

The Byzantine homelands are Constantinople, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Trebizond, Nicaea, Anatolia, Crimea, Georgia, Lesser Armenia, Cyprus, Crete and Rhodes. Outside of these areas the Byz faction specific troops CANNOT be built. The thinking is conquered territories often didn't contribute to the army of the conquerer much. In game terms, especially after Early, this means that troops are built only in the built up homelands of a faction, so the AI doesn't have bloated armies of fodder but builds decent troops.

Each province has some valour bonus and IRON has been redistributed slightly. The Mercenary Tradegood is needed to build Inns and has been limited to a few provinces, generally where homelands of two or more factions overlap. The buildable Mercenary units can be built in these provinces on top of the troops that can be hired in the Inn.

As long as this post is it only briefly outlines the changes in MedMod. I highly recommend getting it and trying it for yourself, but be prepared to lose a game.

[mystic brew]

wow. that sounds fantastic. I've heard a lot of stuff about Wes, but I'm a little frightened of getting it on

[Brutal DLX]

Well, in GA games I basically never attack other factions unless they hold a province that belongs to my homelands or they attack me first, thus I'd never attack Venice or the Hungarians, I'd rather try to get them as allies to protect my back (which can be a nice twist if they are backstabbing you and you then have to deal with them, probably in the middle of another war).
Also the Byzantines have basic spearmen, IIRC, but of course Byzantine Infantry plus cavalry and archers is usually enough to defeat most enemies. Definitely try to get some good mercenary troops, with your king's influence and the rich lands they possess you can afford to have a standing mercenary army.
Byzantine cavalry is great, but has high upkeep, something to keep in mind. They are much much better than horsearchers, and if used skillfully can be a medium cavalry with skirmish ability. In general, you should rely on your cavalry more, and use foot troopers just to boost your ranks. Pronoai, Lancers and Byz Cav, along with one or two Kataphraktoi can be very devastating, even vs. Western knights. The Pronoai should be your main heavy cav though. rather than the Kataphraktoi. They are just too slow.

[mystic brew]

going well, in many ways. My emperor died recently, then his son died leaving a 16 year old king with great stats plus about 7 8-9* generals and their kataphract units there.

I hold hungary and Carpathia, which are my upgrade centres - and I've just won huge battles in Antioch and Armenia - cutting the Egyptians off from the steppes - they recently spread quickly all the way up to Novgorod...

but the downside is that with no trade (the egyptians have a lot of ships and the naval war isn't going all my way) I am losing money hand over fist. An army I could afford comfortably in peacetime is suddenly bleeding me dry. So I am grabbing these provinces because I have to

I like 'themes' so I decided I wanted standing armies, set up around the byzantine only troops. so I've been rationalising and reorganising.
Each of my basic legion units has

2 T Archers
1 Arblastiers
3 B Inf
2 B Cav
1 VG
1 Naptha

And I've a good reserve of Pa and Kats and VG to lead any attack.

But my Western front is way too long - Serbia, Wallachia, Carpathia, Bulagaria & Hungary all are garrisoned with big and expensive armys. And they aren't even fighting anyone - just there.

I think I'm gonna have to use them, and soon.

*cackles and rubs hands together.*

Let's see. I can attack the Italians, the HRE, the Poles, the Russians and the Egyptians simulataneously. Any bets That's total war - my goodness, turns might just start lasting forever.

I'm very tempted - see how far i can get...

[mystic brew]

going well, in many ways. My emperor died recently, then his son died leaving a 16 year old king with great stats plus about 7 8-9* generals and their kataphract units there.

I hold hungary and Carpathia, which are my upgrade centres - and I've just won huge battles in Antioch and Armenia - cutting the Egyptians off from the steppes - they recently spread quickly all the way up to Novgorod...

but the downside is that with no trade (the egyptians have a lot of ships and the naval war isn't going all my way) I am losing money hand over fist. An army I could afford comfortably in peacetime is suddenly bleeding me dry. So I am grabbing these provinces because I have to

I like 'themes' so I decided I wanted standing armies, set up around the byzantine only troops. so I've been rationalising and reorganising.
Each of my basic legion units has

2 T Archers
1 Arblastiers
3 B Inf
2 B Cav
1 VG
1 Naptha

And I've a good reserve of Pa and Kats and VG to lead any attack.

But my Western front is way too long - Serbia, Wallachia, Carpathia, Bulagaria & Hungary all are garrisoned with big and expensive armys. And they aren't even fighting anyone - just there.

I think I'm gonna have to use them, and soon.

*cackles and rubs hands together.*

Let's see. I can attack the Italians, the HRE, the Poles, the Russians and the Egyptians simulataneously. Any bets That's total war - my goodness, turns might just start lasting forever.

I'm very tempted - see how far i can get...

[The Wizard]

With my current Byz campaign I'm campaigning in Iberia, and my nation is the most powerful nation in the world, however we're a bit short on man power http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Quokka]

Quote[/b] (mystic brew @ Nov. 03 2003,19:48)]But my Western front is way too long - Serbia, Wallachia, Carpathia, Bulgaria & Hungary all are garrisoned with big and expensive armys. And they aren't even fighting anyone - just there.
Sounds like you need to visit Moldavia. An excursion there will shorten the border, add a province and free up an Army to use against the Egyptians. I hear its lovely this time of year.

I am fighting the Egyptians in my Byzantine campaign and the same thing is happening. I am slowing beating them back on land but losing at sea. I only control the Black Sea and the Eastern Med, they have ships everywhere all the way to Italy.
The Egyptians can't help themselves when it comes to backstabbing, they did it to the Turks and not 5 turns after we finished the Turks, they sank my fleet and took Rum.

[mystic brew]

Quokka,

You're absolutely right... in theory one problem - the Poles are sitting in Moldavia with 3 complete stacks - there was a loyalist rebellion after the Egyptians invaded and there are over 400 knights there.

[Mega Dux Bob]

Got to take the Eygptians down early on as the Byzantines; their army is a rabble and it gets you all those lovely Levent provinces with thier high income and Eygpt.

[The Wizard]

Egyptians... lol. Once you beat their crap-ass troops on land they won't have anything to transport over water now will they? just protect constantinople if their winning the sea war, albeit that enevr happens with me. Pump-pump-pump those ships http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mystic brew]

Wizzy - you're absolutely right. lessons learnt, eh?

I went for hungary early for a couple of reasons.
the steel, because my eastern front had factions rather than rebels to fight, because I have fought over that area as the Poles, and because i wanted the Balkans for their friendly and peacable population. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

But having slaughtered the Egyptian armies at will, I'll be pushing the Egyptians back until I meet those Almos.

i just don't like desert battles very much, for some reason.

[The Wizard]

The Egyptians are always second a year after the Turks pay their debt for defying me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[mystic brew]

heh. i have a feeling the Turks will seldom prosper if the player is Byzantine. They just get squeezed down.

I have a bit of a grudge against the Italians in this game - they attacked the rebels at the same time as me, and so they grabbed Serbia when my army did all the actual work. The Italians bloomin' ran away

So they might be next, after the Egyptians.

[kataphraktoi]

When you switch from one faction to the Byzantine faction, do u tend to play like your old fav. factions???????

I often try to play like a Byzantine when I play the Franks or the Danes and get the crap kicked out of me....

ANyway, what kind of formations do u use in Byz campaigns?

I prefer close formations with plenty of cheks and balances between units...although I can never get enuff of Mardaite Light Cavalrymen attacking the flanks by themselves.

[The Wizard]

Merdaite Light Cav? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Anyhoo, in the unmodded SP game, I prefer to have my center to be held by Byzantine Infantry, with pavs up front or behind them (depending on the position of the enemy), and my cav on the sides. If we're talking an army containing Byz Cav, then they play the role of heavy Szekely. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[lancer63]

This thread made me quit my aragonese campaing and start as Bizantine once more. I seldom train othe foot units than 2 spears and 2 militia. But let it fly with biz. inf. and treb. archers. Horsies I train any and every one they have. Plus I take Moldavia ASAP for its Avar Nobles and Kiev for 2 strategic reasons. 1. for regular and heavy steppe cav.
2. It will be my 'Alamo' against the GH, because of it's river crossing battle it becomes 'bow and lance central' my best archers and spears are posted there, plus it discourages the pesky Huns and Poles from getting too cocky with my western lands.
I have taken Rum and Edessa from the Turks (they drew first blood by taking Trebizond and raiding Georgia) And now hold themselves precariously in Armenia and Sirya against the egyptian jackal and my boys in purple.
I agree Hungary and Carpatia should be liberated from the hungarians in order to have iron producing provs. But I don't like to have 2 front conflicts and right now the Turks and Egyptians hate my guts.
The Biz campaing is unique and special it has some of the most exciting units of the game and it's own geographical position makes it a very dinamic faction.

[lancer63]

This thread made me quit my aragonese campaing and start as Bizantine once more. I seldom train othe foot units than 2 spears and 2 militia. But let it fly with biz. inf. and treb. archers. Horsies I train any and every one they have. Plus I take Moldavia ASAP for its Avar Nobles and Kiev for 2 strategic reasons. 1. for regular and heavy steppe cav.
2. It will be my 'Alamo' against the GH, because of it's river crossing battle it becomes 'bow and lance central' my best archers and spears are posted there, plus it discourages the pesky Huns and Poles from getting too cocky with my western lands.
I have taken Rum and Edessa from the Turks (they drew first blood by taking Trebizond and raiding Georgia) And now hold themselves precariously in Armenia and Sirya against the egyptian jackal and my boys in purple.
I agree Hungary and Carpatia should be liberated from the hungarians in order to have iron producing provs. But I don't like to have 2 front conflicts and right now the Turks and Egyptians hate my guts.
The Biz campaing is unique and special it has some of the most exciting units of the game and it's own geographical position makes it a very dinamic faction.

[lancer63]

This thread made me quit my aragonese campaing and start as Bizantine once more. I seldom train othe foot units than 2 spears and 2 militia. But let it fly with biz. inf. and treb. archers. Horsies I train any and every one they have. Plus I take Moldavia ASAP for its Avar Nobles and Kiev for 2 strategic reasons. 1. for regular and heavy steppe cav.
2. It will be my 'Alamo' against the GH, because of it's river crossing battle it becomes 'bow and lance central' my best archers and spears are posted there, plus it discourages the pesky Huns and Poles from getting too cocky with my western lands.
I have taken Rum and Edessa from the Turks (they drew first blood by taking Trebizond and raiding Georgia) And now hold themselves precariously in Armenia and Sirya against the egyptian jackal and my boys in purple.
I agree Hungary and Carpatia should be liberated from the hungarians in order to have iron producing provs. But I don't like to have 2 front conflicts and right now the Turks and Egyptians hate my guts.
The Biz campaing is unique and special it has some of the most exciting units of the game and it's own geographical position makes it a very dinamic faction.

[mystic brew]

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Nov. 04 2003,19:14)]When you switch from one faction to the Byzantine faction, do u tend to play like your old fav. factions???????
well, the Byzantines have enough variety that it seems you can mix and match.

so I can say I've been using different armies depending on who I've been facing. On the Eastern side I've three armies, each with 4 units of steppe cav, 2 BC, 2 PA, 1 Kat, 1 VG, 2 BBs and 2 BI. The infantry is to create a 'base' that the cav manouvres around. Much like playing the Egyptians, really.

the Western forces are much heavier. Armoured up and Kat and Avar heavy, with no horse archers and arblastiers and TAs instead of BBs.

I *heart* BI

I have also got a big affection for naptha. I've been using it to great effect in some battles. fun to see a dozen fall in one volley.

So to answer your question - not really. i love learning how to use a new force balance...

[kataphraktoi]

Mardaite Light Cavalry is a recycled unit for my custom Campaign Mod..

Mardaites were Christian guerrillas who caused Byzantium and the Arab Caliphate headaches by their devastating raiding and plundering from the foothills of Cilicia all thw way to the Dead Sea in Israel.

By various agreements, Mardaites were settled on Byzantine territory as oarsmen, there were also settled on the frontier as cavalry forces....

They're great for attacking other light forces like horse archers, skirmishers and foot archers. They tend to rack up valour easily.

[The Wizard]

Actually when the time comes that the late era begins and the Europeans let rip the super heavy cav, I suddenly start pumping Byz Cav big time because them slowass knights can't catch 'em... and Kats supported can take down knights pretty easily. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Especially with top class generals, Kataphraktoi are near invincible...although Swiss Armoured Pikemen have turned my best units into dog food http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

But I like Byz Cavalry too...they make up a nice proportion of my army and I use them to sweep the field clean of the enemy.

[The Wizard]

Against SAM use horse archers... and Byzantine Infantry of course... and don't forget other missile troops and VG's You see, there are many ways to take down those bastards. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[kataphraktoi]

I wonder why late royal knights don't get slower in each period since they get more and more heavier with armour...

Kats are the most discriminated unit in MTW....

[The_Emperor]

Just out of curiosity, what Byzantine units is the player unable to build in Later periods?

I know the Varangian Guard cannot (to reflect their disbanding after the Fourth crusade), but are there any others?

[The Wizard]

In 1.1 I could still make VG's after 1320... :0

But I'm scared about not being able to make them anymore so I have about five provinces pump 'em now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Auxilia]

Quote[/b] (mystic brew @ Nov. 04 2003,07:22)]i just don't like desert battles very much, for some reason.
Neither do I - my missile troops are blinded if there's a sand-storm, and my Kataphracts are knackered after one poxy melee http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Ever tried to mod the Kataphraktoi to have a bow as well?

I use to have a Kat with a bow but decided I wanted it to charge than shoot. But either way useful for softening up enemies before delivering the coup de grace

Yes, I hate desert battles too.....makes u wonder how the Middle East originated Kataphracts and Klibanarii in the first place.

[mystic brew]

on desert battles I tend to deploy wide and rush forward. The pansy ass egyptian foot can't hold a candle to valoured up BIs and VGs, and once you've smashed the centre, the rest of the battle is a long and boring duel with HAs, I usually find.

[Brutal DLX]

Well, some units are pretty slow, like Gothic Knights, I think they have about the same speed as Kataphraktoi. The Chivalric Knights shouldn't get slower as the armour had just been improved in technical terms, not in actual "heavyness", also the Catholic Knights used extra strong horses specifically bred for carrying heavy equipment. I suspect this type of horse race wasn't available around Asia Minor and Greece.

I don't thing you can do much damage to SAP with archers, their armour is just too good. You need crossbows and arbalests in conjunction with heavy Sword/AP units to kill them effectively. SAP is one of the strongest units there is.

[The Wizard]

Actually, according to quite a lot of sources online on the Byzantines, the horses from Nicaea were a very good breed, bred to carry heavy riders (i.e. heavily armoured riders), and also heavy armor themselves. When the Ottomans took Nicaea from them, they lost the horses from that area, which is reflected in the game by not being able to build any more Pronoai Allagion (Nicaea was famous for them and other cav). But in my eyes it's logical that Byzantine Cataphracts should be as fast as MHC and Kwharazmian Cav, they carried about the same amount of armor.

Horse scale barding was lighter than horse plating you know. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Brutal DLX]

It would depend on the thickness of the scales and plates and the amount of the plating, hm? Chivalric knights' horses in this game don't have plating at the sides, just around the head/neck area.
About Nicaea, you might be right, but the climate there is different, it may put additional strain on the horses. In the end, we would need to compare even those horses to the one from Western Europe. Also we have to always put the game balance considerations into our evaluations. Making Karaphraktoi faster could have given a huge edge to the Byzantines which quite frankly they really don't need in this game. But you can always mod. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[The Wizard]

That is true. IMO, they don't need it if properly supported by, for instance, Pronoai Allagion. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kristaps]

hehehe, posted this in another topic but meant to post here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

--
Regarding Byzantines and Naples: I found it the most fun part of the Byzantine campaign to defend the isolated province... I rushed the italian infrastructure to produce units in the following sequence: (1) urban milita, (2) trebizond archers, (3) spearmen, (4) naphta, (5) horse archers.

With a few units of urban militia + the original garrison units my general succeeded to defeat several Sicilian kings and princes. He bluntly refused to fight outside the woods, until he got a decent number of spears/trebizonds and horse archers.

Once, He was able to form a hill-top trebizond-heavy battle-line, a couple kings got the "coward" vice after facing napolese naphta throwers {I still have a screen-shot of one of these poor characters: reluctant and poor attacker, coward, an atheist [yes, some AI dropped an inquisitor on the sicilian king]} while being peppered by trebizond arrows. From that point, whenever sicilians got sufficiently drunk to cross the straights, it was enough for my urban militia-men to say 'booo' to send the invading armies of royal knights, feudal sergeants and men at arms, along with militia seargeants running back to their women...

And, by that time, the imperial armies from the mainlands of Asia Minor had arranged for transportation to take care of the Sicilians in their homeland anyways

P.S. Story wouldn't be complete, if I didn't mention that Byzantines had an 'unhinged loon' of a prince whom everyone disliked. Alexius was his name though everyone called him simply 'Crazy'. Once the treasury and technology allowed for sea-link to be reestablished between Asia Minor and Naples, the Emperor sent the crazy fella (40 Kats) to pay a visit to the cowardly Sicilian ruler who was sitting in an island with a 1400 strong army of high quality early period troops contemplating his last imperial failure.

I figured, that would be the last we heard of Alexius, but wrong I was... Crazy Alexius and his unit climbed one of the highest mountains in Sicily and just waited for the defenders to attack... To Alexiu's amazement, the reluctant atheist coward, being a poor attacker as usual, was running uphill ahead of the crowd... One charge by the kats, and the dishonor of the Sicilian dinasty was ended... The initial success made the nutty prince berserk and he routed the whole sicilian army. After that, his crazy deeds continued on the eastern front: against the Turks and Egyptians

P.S.S. I know, the woods negate the rank bonus for spears. Nevertheless, they appear to still give the 'hold formation' defense bonus to units. I put one unit of urban milita in 'hold formation' while charging it into a unit of royal knights and flank/rear with another unit of UM in wedge formation. Works wonders... Royals disappear regardless of their generals stars... The tactic is harder to pull off against full-size knight units (40) though (with UM that is)

[The_Emperor]

My latest Byzantine Campaign has been a real uphill struggle.

First off the bat I create lots of troops and pour the money into Naples to hold it.

After getting an alliance with both the Poles and the Hungarians I was happy that my northern frontier was secure, so I decided to stomp the Turks.

After I take Rum and Armenia I am feeling pretty chuffed with myself, when suddenly a small Egyptian force crosses into Lesser Armenia to have a go at my Tiny Garisson of Byz Inf who beat them off spectacularly. So there I was at war with two powers already.

The following Year the world goes to hell, The Sicillians attack and capture Naples... (all that investment gone to waste, might as well have not developed the place at all) The Hungarians invade Serbia and Bulgaria deciding our Alliance is useless, and Sicillian ships start attacking my shipping

Fortunately after a couple of Kings who can't get it up, Hungary implodes due to lack of heirs into Rebel holdings and I take what I want and bribe the rest, the Poles also get in on the land grab as well, helping me out in Wallachia.

Its a lot worse now with Sicillian Naval invasions in Greece, Serbia, and Crete (all were repelled) and a rebellion in Croatia that couldn't be put down... Oh yes and the Italians decided to get in on the act as well by joining in with the sinking of my fleet with those invulnerable Sicillian ships

I have had it tough as the Byzantines before but this is just silly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[The Wizard]

I hate it when the AI gets jealous of your might...

It always happens to me somewhere around 1150-'70... I lose all my allies as they all attack me in some way or another http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Nov. 08 2003,18:47)]I hate it when the AI gets jealous of your might...

It always happens to me somewhere around 1150-'70... I lose all my allies as they all attack me in some way or another http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
True but this was REAL early. All of this started the moment I declared war on the Turks, which was when Alexius II came to be Emperor

There I was fighting wars on all fronts, and being unable to balance out the treasury with a decent income

[Brutal DLX]

Hehe. Now it's time to show them what you've got on the field of battle. And Emperors don't whine, they conquer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[The Wizard]

My first Byz campaign was so n00bish (it was my 1st campaign ever) - I actually let the Turks get the better of me at times... they had a navy, conquered anatolia and nicaea, and even attempted to take the Eternal City http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Nov. 10 2003,09:16)]Hehe. Now it's time to show them what you've got on the field of battle. And Emperors don't whine, they conquer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Oh don't you worry I am conquering all right, the Turks are now History and the Egyptian hordes of peasants have been numerously defeated by Alexius II Personally (He's now a Field Defence Specialist)

Oh yes and the Italians and Sicillians decided to go to war with each other, so their ships have suddenly vanished from my seas...

The Hungarians re-emerged so I withdrew from their former territory, soon enough they sued for peace as they started to make war on the Poles and the HRE and the Italians.

An HRE Crusade arrived in Edessa (it WAS Turkish, but by the time I was done I had conquered as far south as Syria and Palestine&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Given that I was in a generous mood I handed over the province (just after I burnt the watch towers to make their keeping order with the locals a bit more difficult) They are so weak from their journey its pathetic, surrounded as they are by a sea of Massive Purple Armies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The Wizard]

Huge armies of barnies are very demoralising, I've heard...

[Brutal DLX]

Way to go, Emperor. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[lancer63]

I took hold of Hungary, Carpatia and Tuscany, had to eliminate the Hungarians in the process, and began to race towards metallization. Now nearly 40% of my men have silver/golden armor and bronze (level 2) weapons. The HRE decided to try my patience in croatia the other day and I was affraid my Biz inf. would not measure up to the situation (it's the first years of the late period) but they managed to rout enything and everything the germs sent their way. My VG unit lost only one guy and they never got any weapon upgrade, just silver armor.
And cav. and ranged units simply had a field day. Now I understand why the biz have no starting iron resource.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

From Paxx in the Entrance Hall:

I 've been playing enough with the Byzs
First movement is towards Croatia and Serbia where the gold is... eitherwise towards Russia (difficult but...who knows), dont mind the Turks(for start)
My favorite units are Byzantine infantry, Varangian Guards and of course Kats. I avoid the byzantine cavalary.

[The Wizard]

Byz Cav... are some of the best cav in the game Their versatility outmatches Turcoman horse... simply because they can handle themselves in a fight.

Best mobility? Mongols of course, their combination of MHA and MHC is very powerful, and their infantry, while not that good in a fight, will defeat most infantry if well used. I.e. you use them skirmishlingly. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Currently my veteran Byzantine armies are tied up in a gritty fight in Iberia... the Almohads just won't give up

[lancer63]

Aye to that. Biz cav. can shoot, are fast and can fight. They may not be mamluk HAs but in the mix of weapons they, and biz lancers, give a decently fast and very dangerous sting to an rather slow army.

[Brutal DLX]

I think the extraordinarily high upkeep cost of Byz Cavalry makes some people shy away from it. It is, however a very good medium cavalry.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

from Paxx in the EH:

In my opinion Byzantine cavalary is useful to those who use tactics(eg hit&run) with missile cavalary. I usually dont use these tactics so i find byz cav a little useless(?) as their charge with their little swords is not effective (this is from my experience)

[lancer63]

Quote[/b] (Jacque Schtrapp @ Nov. 13 2003,10:15)]from Paxx in the EH:

In my opinion Byzantine cavalary is useful to those who use tactics(eg hit&run) with missile cavalary. I usually dont use these tactics so i find byz cav a little useless(?) as their charge with their little swords is not effective (this is from my experience)
Biz cav. charging.....what? spears, heavy cav., light cav.? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif What did they charge?

Ranged units charging highly defensive foes is as smart as sending VGs to chase mongol HAs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[The Wizard]

Still, sending the Varangians to catch Mongol Horse Archers is smarter than sending Gothic Foot Knights to do so...

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Quote[/b] (lancer63 @ Nov. 13 2003,11:49)]Biz cav. charging.....what? spears, heavy cav., light cav.? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif What did they charge?

Ranged units charging highly defensive foes is as smart as sending VGs to chase mongol HAs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Thus sayeth Paxx from the EH:

charging even light sword units I mean, of course not spears (that is what i noticed and not a rule)

[lancer63]

Quote[/b] (Jacque Schtrapp @ Nov. 13 2003,16:00)]
Quote[/b] (lancer63 @ Nov. 13 2003,11:49)]Biz cav. charging.....what? spears, heavy cav., light cav.? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif What did they charge?

Ranged units charging highly defensive foes is as smart as sending VGs to chase mongol HAs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Thus sayeth Paxx from the EH:

charging even light sword units I mean, of course not spears (that is what i noticed and not a rule)
Of course it's not a rule. I've crippled hungarian chivalric sergeants formations with my Biz. cav.
And have seen my heir's Kats get creamed by mere town militia. The secret is in how and when you use them.
The game is designed to let you screw up as much as you want so that you learn the ropes and design the playing technique you feel is best for you. It's ok if pyo only like to have armies with no ranged units or if you dislike H&R tactics. In SP if affects noone but the player him/herself. Can only guess about MP since I've never been there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Anyone modded the Kats to have the lance and the bow.

A mistake by MTW was to make the Kataphraktoi the same as the Klibanophori and thats why they're slow.

But the Kats are faster than that and are only a tad slower than western european knights. They only rode horses with half armour or no armour at all, plus they were trained in lance and bow. Kats usually use either a lance or bow, rarely both unless the situation demands it.

Playing against enemy Kats with bows are frustratingly annoying, they cause u damage by their arrows then they charge at you like a heavy cavalry does and hits you where it hurts.

Die Kats.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[ichi]

A couple of points that I didn't see in the thread.

First, Byz Inf and VG are tough, but low morale is a problem. Get as much valor as you can on these units ASAP. Keep their flanks covered and don't let one unit get too far out in front or outnumbered alone. High valor VG are the best unit in the game, IMHO.

Second, Kataphraktoi are great cavarly but are best used defensively - they are slow. I prefer to use Pronoiai Allagion as my primary cavalry - but remember they are really medium cav. Kats make the best unit for your general (except maybe in the desert). I like to give my Kats armor upgrades - they will hold a long time, long enough to get a Byz Cav or other unit to flank the enemy.

Third, Treb Archers and Byz Cav are essential for fighting Muslims, particularly the Turks. Trebs and Byz Cav can fight, but won't hold long head-to-head against tough troops. Use em to pepper the best enemy troops and when out of ammo, send em around the flanks and hit the ends of the enemy line in the rear. Byz Cav are in the second tier of horse archers - below Szekely and Boyars but still one of the best units. They require a little micromanagement, but ya gotta love em. Nothing like picking a Catholic Knight unit off one or two at a time, staying just out of reach.

Fourth, Naptha. Use Naptha in concert with high valor VG. There is a little friendly fire thing goin on, and if you have low valor VG or Byz Inf they can get freaked out by the Naptha just as fast as your opponent. But a couple of Naptha behind a good VG will rout many types of units muy rapido.

Typical Byz army.

1 Kataphraktoi (Gen) w/ armor upgrade
2 Trebizond Archers (also w/ armor)
2 Byz Inf (valored up)
4 VG (w/armor and valor and everything else)
4 Porno Cav V1A1 is OK
1 Naptha (set on hold pos/hold form linked with a VG)
2 Byz Cav (V2A1 is OK if you want em to fight)

for a defensive position maybe add more Byz Inf


Trebizonds Trebizonds
Byz Cav Byz Inf Byz Inf Byz Cav
Porno Cav VG VG VG VG Porno Cav Porno Cav
Porno Cav Kataphraktoi Naptha


Just an idea

ichi

[Brutal DLX]

I prefer the "Porno cav" too, lol.
No, but really, they can take on Western Knights at valour 1 or 2, I treat them as heavy cavalry and use them in conjunction with Lancers and some HA/Byz cav as support. That's why I usually have cav heavy armies, at least 8, the rest being Byz inf, archers and 2 VG as elite reserves/flankers.
Naptha I hardly use in SP, it's a bit unfair to the AI. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[The_Emperor]

In my armies, I tend to have four or five units of Infantry a couple of units would be Varangian Guard to break the enemy in the middle lines.

Cavalry I tend to go for Two Units of Kats (one being the General) to deliver that "Shock charge" we all love, Supporting them I would have two Units of Lancers early on, and I would replace them with "Porno Cav" as soon as I have the ability to make them. If I have any spare spaces in my army Byz Cav will fill them.

Rounding off the Army I would have three units of Treb Archers.

Oh yes and I cannot leave home without a unit of Naptha Throwers

[lancer63]

I've noticed I'm not the only one who only trains VG, Biz Inf., Treb. archers and the eventual naphta thrower as foot units in early period.
I mean. Spears, UM and peasants are useless to me because Biz Inf. is sort of a universal unit. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[The Wizard]

In early I pump lancers - can't be bothered as long as their isn't any heavy cav except royal knights to challenge them. They deliver an excellent extra punch to a katank charge.

Even though porno cav are supposed to be heavy cav, they die much to quickly to be real heavy cav. =/

[mystic brew]

yeah, they do die quick, but they also rack up the valour. I now have 4 units of valour 4 PA, combined from about 9 units.

I'm just moving them up to Hungary to get thier +2 steel and +3 armour upgrades. yum.

[The_Emperor]

The other thing with "Porno" Cav is that they have a very high upkeep cost. I find that Lancers are good enough to support my Kats and are a bit cheaper.

[Leet Eriksson]

My army composition usually has a load of byzantine cavalry,they are really good,as good as mameluke horse archers,they have good attack,good defence and have bows,what else do you need?

just keep skirmishing and they can even take down heavy knights.

[DemonArchangel]

PA are awesome, Katas are awesome, lancers SUCK

[The Wizard]

Spanish Lancers > all ^^

[ichi]

Quote[/b] ]In early I pump lancers - can't be bothered as long as their isn't any heavy cav except royal knights to challenge them. They deliver an excellent extra punch to a katank charge.

Even though porno cav are supposed to be heavy cav, they die much to quickly to be real heavy cav. =/

Pronoiai Allagion (AKA porno Cav) are medium Cav; with upgrades they can go head to head with standard issue Catholic Knights, but look at the stas and you will see that they are between light cav and heavy cav.

While you are looking, notice that florin for florin pornos beat BLancers. BLancers have their role and place - desert cav for the Byz, but they aren't really designed for head-on confrontation with the Catholics.

ichi

[Brutal DLX]

When you look at the stats, you will find they are almost similar to Feudal Knights, thus I'd classify them as heavy not medium. But that's in the eye of the beholder. At equal valour they will probably lose, but deplete any Chivalric Knight unit by at least 20 men in the process, which is good, given they cost less.
Byz Cav is a fine example of truly medium cavalry. Byzantine Lancers are a lot like mounted Sarges, and should be used as such.

[Daevyll]

Quote[/b] (monkian @ Oct. 30 2003,10:54)]Byzantines are even more fun with the Wesmod installed- its well worth a try
Had to reaffirm that one - with Wesmod byz are a joy to play.

I actually had quite a hard time with them, took me far longer than expected to drive the Turks into a corner, and just as I was about ot finish them off I first get jumped on by the Russians, then by the Egyptians.

I was actually having trouble to consolidate, let alone expand (&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Then once the Turks were gone, Egypt fought to a standstill on the Antioch-Syria border, and the Russians given a broken nose in two major battles which killed off most of their Boyars, I get a #@#$% Italian army crushing my long-standing ally Hungary and then declaring war on me, plus Almos killing my ships.

If I hadnt had such excellent generals (two 9-star and an 8-star), I'm not sure I would have lasted this long....

[ichi]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ Nov. 21 2003,02:59)]When you look at the stats, you will find they are almost similar to Feudal Knights, thus I'd classify them as heavy not medium. But that's in the eye of the beholder. At equal valour they will probably lose, but deplete any Chivalric Knight unit by at least 20 men in the process, which is good, given they cost less.
Byz Cav is a fine example of truly medium cavalry. Byzantine Lancers are a lot like mounted Sarges, and should be used as such.
We may be on different versions - I am speaking of MTW VI. But let's look at the stats (from VI File VIKINGS_UNIT_PROD) of Porno Cav and Chiv Knights, the 'standard' issue Catholic Heavy Cav.

Pronoiai Chiv Knight
Cost 425 650
Support 25 17
Production time 1 1
Starting honour handicap 0 0
Number of men in unit 40 40
Honour step value 1 1

Chivs cost more, but porno are more expensive to maintain. Why do Chivs cost so much more?

PROJECTILE_TYPE: NONE NONE
SAMURAI: YES YES
MARCH_SPEED: 9 9
RUN_SPEED: 20 20
CHARGE_SPEED: 22 22
MIN_TURNSPEED: 2 2
MAX_TURNSPEED: 8 8
TURN_TO_MOTION_SPEED: 8 8
MAX_INMOTION_TURN: 96 96
FORMATION_WIDTH_SPACING: 115 115
FORMATION_LENGTH_SPACING: 125 125
ENGAGEMENT_THRESHOLD: 2000 2000

Still the same. Identical. But now we come to the real important stats

CHARGE_BONUS: 6 8
MELEE_BONUS: 4 5
DEFENCE_BONUS: 3 5
ARMOUR_LEVEL: 5 7
HONOUR_LEVEL: 8 8

SUM OF 5 FACTORS 26 33

Chivs get 2 more charge bonus, an extra point on melee attack two on defense (nearly twice that of porno), and have two more armor points. They are the same only on honor.

Any one of these differences might not be significant, but when combined it is clear why I think that Pronoiai Allagion (my favorite cav unit in the game) is best classified as medium cav.

ichi

[Brutal DLX]

Ichi, no, we are not on different versions. I grant you that Pronos are worse than Chivalric Knights at equal valour, that's why I said you will be able to take out half the unit but lose. However I also said Pronos are almost similar to FEUDAL Knights. So you should check the stats for that, not the ChivKnights. Cost-wise the Chivs have an advantage in SP, that's a fact I won't argue with.
But Feudal Knights are heavy cav, and so are Pronos. Just that the Chivs are the better heavy cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif