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LadyAnn
11-01-2003, 01:05
The domestication of elephants quickly introduces the large beasts to warfare. First, let's examine why some ethnic group used elephants and why others won't.

Geography
It is hard to breed elephants in captivity. Even in modern day, breeding elephants is quite rare. The best method of domestication is to capture young elephants and "break" and "tame" them. Therefore, only places where elephants are seen in the wild used elephants in warfare.

- North Africa: African elephants are abundant;
- Asia: From India to Burma, Laos and Vietnam, Asian elephants could be seen.

Advantage of elephants
- Elephants are large beasts, of height that could be twice as high as a man. It provides those sitting on top clear view and out of reach of those standing on the ground.
- It is hard to stop an elephant.
- Elephants would also terrify horses and men;

Disadvantage of elephants
- When elephant pannicks, they ran back or around and is a hazard to anyone standing close;
- Elephants pannick easily: when wounded, when hear too much of loud noises, see fire burning, strong smells.
- Elephants are slow.
- Elephants eat a lot.

Elephants in History
- Hannibal brought elephants in his invasion of Italian peninsula. "Hannibal crossed the Alps with elephants" was the news of the day. However, it was not clear Hannibal used elephants at all in his victory over Romans. Some sources said the elephants were dead (for lack of proper food, as an elephant eat hundred pounds of vegetation a day), except a few.

- Alexander the Great saw Indians used elephants. In a key battle, the elephants were useless as they pannicked and ran away, but not before running over indian formations.
Elephants in India also play pschological role as well: as elephants are worshipped as an incarnation of a God, elephants in battlefield meant the God is on their side. Plus, nobles are carried around on elephants, a practice still used until very recently.

- Viet used elephants against Han in 40 AD.At first, the practice was a success. But when Han came back three years later for the Viet re-conquest, the Han put striped cloths over horses (to make them look like tigers) and made a lot of noises with fire crackers and gongs. Perhaps it was not a decisive factor (professionalism and armors/weapons were perhaps the decisive factors), but elephants were never reused again in warfare by Viet afterward.

- Laos and Champa used elephants against Viet, but Laos were defeated and were under Viet influences many times. Champa was slowly chipped away;

- The Khmer Kingdom (1300 AD) still saw widespread use of elephants. However, it was not known by this author how they used in warfare, if at all.

- Burmese used elephants against Mongol in 13th century, with not much of success.

In conclusion

Elephants could be a fun unit to use. Since it was once used in real warfare, I guess it was correct that elephants should be effective against lose formation and un-trained soldiers. The elephants disappeared on battlefield the way horses disappeared after internal combustion machine was invented. It was useful against a group of tribesmen, but when mass infantry with pointed spears and swords advanced on the elephant, it is no longer useful.

I would be upset if I see 16 units of elephants running around terrorized everyone.

Annie

DemonArchangel
11-01-2003, 01:08
i should make a unit called the byzantine elephant trooper, it blends 5 tons of pachyderm with a b*tchload of naptha

The_Emperor
11-01-2003, 01:51
Quote[/b] (DemonArchangel @ Nov. 01 2003,00:08)]i should make a unit called the byzantine elephant trooper, it blends 5 tons of pachyderm with a b*tchload of naptha
Given that Elephants are afraid of Loud Noises and Fire, you have just come up with a Self-Routing Unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

DemonArchangel
11-01-2003, 01:54
But therin lies the beauty, just get the elephants to hold fire, wade into the thick of things, then use the fire ability to trample their way out if surrounded.

Kraxis
11-01-2003, 03:15
Or just make it deaf...

The Wizard
11-01-2003, 20:27
If you cut off its ears it'll die of heat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Rajput
11-09-2003, 00:34
Great article LadyAnn, but one minor point. Indians did not worship elephants as an incarnation of God. I am a Hindu, and if we believed in elephant worship, I'm sure I would know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

No doubt they were revered and respected; perhaps no where else in the world besides India were elephants given so much importance. In fact, it was the ancient Indians that first domesticated the elephant and first used them in battle. And they were the last to use them in battle, around the 1800's.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The Wizard
11-09-2003, 13:05
Well, I don't know for sure, but wasn't there a Hindu god that looks like an elephant standing on its hind legs with four 'arms', that was the patron of the bath houses?

Sorry if this sounds ignorant. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Kraxis
11-10-2003, 17:11
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Nov. 01 2003,13:27)]If you cut off its ears it'll die of heat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
DUH

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But seriously, those are only the earlobes... But I'm sure you know that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

DojoRat
11-10-2003, 21:12
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Nov. 09 2003,06:05)]Well, I don't know for sure, but wasn't there a Hindu god that looks like an elephant standing on its hind legs with four 'arms', that was the patron of the bath houses?

Sorry if this sounds ignorant. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Ganesh?

Rajput
11-11-2003, 02:28
DojoRat is right, Ganesh is a Hindu deity shown with an elephant head (its all symbolic though, the elephant head represents knowledge).

But the actual animal wasn't worshipped, it was highly respected though.

Anyway, I know no offense was meant, I'm no religious fanatic or anything http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Just clarifying http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

econ21
11-11-2003, 14:20
Interesting post, Lady Ann. Your conclusion contrasts with what they say on Time Commanders about elephants being good against closed formation infantry and bad against loose formation ones.

I agree they would be formiddable against tribesme. But I suspect light infantry with nerve could be about the best unit for killing elephants (outside of archers). I doubt elephants would not fare well against a phalanx. Whether they would smash through a sword armed close formation troops (a legion), I don't am not sure but would give CA the benefit of the doubt.

I doubt we will see 16 units of elephants running wild in RTW, if only because of what appeared in TC to be their extreme vulnerability to archers.

Leet Eriksson
11-11-2003, 22:25
Would like to point out one thing...

The last time the vietnamese used elephants was somewhere in 200AD,can't remember when exactly but it was when Zhuge Liang led the southern campaign,and not 40 AD.

The Wizard
11-11-2003, 23:24
The Cham (North Vietnamese tribe) used elephants against the Khmer...

1dread1lahll
11-14-2003, 04:41
erm,... Elephants not no slow...Ive seen the 'races' in Burma... they are not slow.......

The Wizard
11-15-2003, 19:22
True, but they aren't exactly very mobile... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Mithrandir
11-20-2003, 17:39
Moved to Monastery.