View Full Version : Time Commanders 10 Nov 2003
ShadesWolf
11-03-2003, 19:59
next episode will be as follows
Quote[/b] ]Military strategy game in which contestants recreate historical battles, presented by Eddie Mair. Members of an all-female netball team take control of the army of Thebes against the most feared fighting force of their day, the Spartans, to relive the battle of Leuctra, Greece in 371BC.
The Wizard
11-03-2003, 21:02
That'll be interesting.. Spartans at last http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The_Emperor
11-03-2003, 21:12
An all-female netball team huh?
Well lets hope losers might be reasonably attractive
OMG this is the battle i been waiting for SPARTAN HOLITES
ShadesPanther
11-03-2003, 22:41
AND GREEK HOPLITES
W00T
RisingSun
11-04-2003, 01:02
Although this battle is well before the timeframe of RTW, this shoul be sweet. Oh, and expect the Spartans to lose. If they make it accurate, the Spartans should be outnumbered and out "valoured" by the Thebans.
Hurin_Rules
11-04-2003, 04:09
Well, I wouldn't say out valoured-- out generalled yes, outnumbered yes, but I wouldn't say out valoured. The sacred band were tough, but the rest of the army did not have a higher morale than the Spartans. It was Epaminondas who made the difference, not the Theban infantry.
ShadesWolf
11-04-2003, 14:23
I will be interested to see how the terrain looks, and what features it has
Rosacrux
11-04-2003, 15:54
Actually, the Lakedemons ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) outnumbered the Theban & their allies by a 7 to 4 proportion... I can't remember the exact numbers of the two armies, but I've got @home a couple of books with a decent account for the battle, and I'll look up the exact numbers tommorow. But "out-general-ed" for sure... Epaminondas was a military genious of the greatest calibre... too bad for him he was born Theban and not Athenian, Spartan or Macedonian... if that was the case, he'd be recognized as an equal to Alexander the Great - if not even better. His "loxi phalanga" was an inspiration for military leaders up until the Napoleonic era.
btw where can I download some clips from the TC series? Sounds extremely interesting to watch those.
rasoforos
11-04-2003, 16:03
hey rosa , havent seen you for a while http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The Wizard
11-04-2003, 17:36
loxi phalanga? What's so great about that? *prefers Medieval history to Greek history* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
He invented the pikephalanx, and that was what made Phillip II of Macedon go "Hmmm that looks good, maybe I should try that." And Phillip had a son called Alexander who as we all know did a good job in both Greece and Persia.
So I expect Spartan Hoplites, hoplites and pikemen with a little cavalry here and there as well as a few light inf.
Btw, Rosa is right, the Lakedaimons had a good advantage in numbers.
Rosacrux
11-05-2003, 09:33
Hi Raso, too much work, too little time.
Loxi phalanx: A regular hoplite (armed with spear and aspis hoplites) phalanx with enormous depth in one flank (like 48 ranks) and barely adequate (6 or 8 ranks) in the other flank. And of course with reduced width. It was designed to hit, using massive local numerical superiority, a decisive point in the enemy formation with an enormous weight and - so to say - "firepower", trying to break it. Elements of the very deep phalanx were used to outmanouvre or flank the enemy, or simply add more "weight" in certain points. Also, in certain occassions the loxi phalanx would get into battle gradually, depending on the strategical needs.
The Sacred Band was used as the first few ranks of the deepest part of the loxi phalanx, or as a mobile "elite" force who added local superiority where needed.
Charles Gustav of Sweden and Friedrich the Great of Prussia were among the greatest admirers of Epaminondas' military genious and used extensively loxi phalanx tactics.
Also, the Thebans had the best cavalry from all "southern" (south of Thessaly and Macedon, that is) Greeks, much better than the extremely poor Athenian and Spartan.
Al Shama'ar
11-05-2003, 12:37
To look at a description of the Battle of Leuctra (with diagrams) go here --> The Battle of Leuctra (http://www.fortunecity.com/underworld/straif/69/engleuctra.htm)
Enjoy
Al
o_loompah_the_delayer
11-05-2003, 14:24
Judging by shamars link, most of the Spartans were not spartans at all The bulk 6,700 of 11,800 men in total were Corinthian and other allied irregulars, does this mean peasants in MTW terms?
Rosacrux
11-05-2003, 15:27
most allies were hoplites as well, just not Spartan hoplites. Not peasants by any means http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Rosacrux
11-05-2003, 15:27
most allies were hoplites as well, just not Spartan hoplites. Not peasants by any means http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Rosacrux's comment on the 'weight' of the Loxi phalanx got me thinking about what the battle line was like. Did adversaries stand toe to toe? How did the back rows press home their attack. Did they try to physically push their comrades forward, like a general admission rock concert (my only large scale battle experience), or did the rear echelons break formation and try to wrap around an opponent?
Thanks in advance.
The Wizard
11-05-2003, 20:14
So instead of two square formations of hoplites with very nasty close-combat, there is strategy, a lot of manoeuvring and other such wonderful stuff? Nice. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Hakonarson
11-05-2003, 22:14
No there isn't.
What there is is a very deep square of hoplites on one side crashing into a "normal" depth line of hoplites on the other.
Also there's no vidence the Thebans invented pikes - they certainly did not have them when they were crushed by Alexander a few decades later.
The Sacred band in this battle did not form the front ranks of the Theban mass - they were out to the flank and may have been able to lap around hte end of the Spartan line.
the "revolutionary" tactics used here were actually pretty simple. Epaminondas (the Theban general) had decided to go for the throat - he wanted to defeat the best enemy troops ASAP and knew that they would be on the enemy right flank as was traditional.
So the Theban left flank was reinforced (a 50 deep phalanx), and simply overpowered the enemy opposite them.
the rest of the Theban army was held back "en echelon" and didn't fight. With the defeat of the Spartans the rest of the spartan army disintigrated.
the thebans were helped by the defeat of the Spartan and allied cavalry - IIRC some accounts have the defeated cavalry disordering the phalanx behind it as they retreat.
Hakonarson
11-05-2003, 22:14
No there isn't.
What there is is a very deep square of hoplites on one side crashing into a "normal" depth line of hoplites on the other.
Also there's no vidence the Thebans invented pikes - they certainly did not have them when they were crushed by Alexander a few decades later.
The Sacred band in this battle did not form the front ranks of the Theban mass - they were out to the flank and may have been able to lap around hte end of the Spartan line.
the "revolutionary" tactics used here were actually pretty simple. Epaminondas (the Theban general) had decided to go for the throat - he wanted to defeat the best enemy troops ASAP and knew that they would be on the enemy right flank as was traditional.
So the Theban left flank was reinforced (a 50 deep phalanx), and simply overpowered the enemy opposite them.
the rest of the Theban army was held back "en echelon" and didn't fight. With the defeat of the Spartans the rest of the spartan army disintigrated.
the thebans were helped by the defeat of the Spartan and allied cavalry - IIRC some accounts have the defeated cavalry disordering the phalanx behind it as they retreat.
Hakonarson
11-05-2003, 22:14
No there isn't.
What there is is a very deep square of hoplites on one side crashing into a "normal" depth line of hoplites on the other.
Also there's no vidence the Thebans invented pikes - they certainly did not have them when they were crushed by Alexander a few decades later.
The Sacred band in this battle did not form the front ranks of the Theban mass - they were out to the flank and may have been able to lap around hte end of the Spartan line.
the "revolutionary" tactics used here were actually pretty simple. Epaminondas (the Theban general) had decided to go for the throat - he wanted to defeat the best enemy troops ASAP and knew that they would be on the enemy right flank as was traditional.
So the Theban left flank was reinforced (a 50 deep phalanx), and simply overpowered the enemy opposite them.
the rest of the Theban army was held back "en echelon" and didn't fight. With the defeat of the Spartans the rest of the spartan army disintigrated.
the thebans were helped by the defeat of the Spartan and allied cavalry - IIRC some accounts have the defeated cavalry disordering the phalanx behind it as they retreat.
The Wizard
11-05-2003, 22:23
Ah. Now I understand. It was a bit hard imagining one flank of an army being weak, and the other side overly strong. Of course this strategy must be employed in a different way every time, albeit not qildly different... or not? It depends on the foe... a foe with strong cavalry that could pick out your weak flank could defeat a loxi phalanga... right?
Those conclusions were made with the help of logic. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Red Peasant
11-05-2003, 22:37
Well said Hako, but not three times... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
RisingSun
11-05-2003, 23:52
I meant the actual Spartan elites were outnumbered by the enemy's crack troops. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif But yes, the Thebans purposely put their best troops on the left, contrary to tradition. This probably caused a boost of morale on the Theban allies as well, knowing that instead of the Thebans having the easier fight, and throwing their allies into the Spartan meat-grinder, (As the Spartans usually did to THEIR allies) they would face the Spartans themselves.
ShadesPanther
11-06-2003, 18:08
Alexander and his daddy particularlly liked to hold the enemy with the hoplites and smash into the rear and flanks of their enemies with their big northern greek horses http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.