About pre-Marian legionaries...

[SgtAndrew]

I really hope that one will not simply be able to recruit Triarii as separate units than the other two types of legionaries. I know no history about this, but since it says on the units page that the Triarii are seasoned veterans, I hope that they must earn their status by fighting well in many battles. If one selects one of the Roman factions, he should of course begin with a couple units of Triarii, a few units of Principes, and a horde of Hastati. All Legionaries should be recruited as Hastati or, if they are older, as Principes (for a bit more money), and then move up the ranks as they show their worth. And it would be really awesome if there was some sort of ceremony (and accompanying cinematic) when enough men were promoted to form a complete Triarii unit.

Can I get a developer to tell me something about how this will work, and perhaps some support (or other comments) from you guys?

[magnatz]

Having the units improve with time does makes sense, however I am a little scared that it may turn out in something à la Pokemon...
"Look, my Hastati have evolved Now they are Triarii "
"Oh, yeah ? Soldurii, I choose you "

(just kidding http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)

[Talbot]

I've got a feeling it will work the way Medieval works it that you can re-equip the troops to be better. Perhaps this should only be available once they reached a certain valour status and then you can re-equip them as triarii

[Nowake]

They will be treated like separate units. It's not necesarily inaccurate, as most vets were let to their homes and rehired in times of trouble.

[Scipio]

Ya but most vets after staying at their homes later on put themselves back in the Legions

[Leet Eriksson]

Might get complicated,and just for the sake of multiplayer,they should be seperate at least.

[Scipio]

These sort of thoughts make my head hurt thinking of a solution same with movies when you ask how they do that I just try not to think about it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[econ21]

I really like the idea of upgrading units (ie improving their kit and retaining their experience). It can be a tremendous hook in a campaign game - eg it was about the most fun thing about Panzer General and also the Steel Panthers long campaign.

I don't really see any technical difficulty. We can already upgrade armour and weapons; and our King's knights get upgraded between periods (early to high etc). Changing the unit type should be fairly simple for CA to manage.

I don't suppose they will though and I guess, aside from the triari and perhaps Praetorians, it is not really required. It's not like ancient armies upgraded their units from Pz1A sto Tiger IIs in five years, anyway. It would just be a fun little feature.

However, one thing I worry about - and PG/SP did not solve this - is buying too many elites. An army of all-praetorians or all-triari - yuck I wonder if restricting their creation to say, one unit per turn and requiring them to come from units of a particular valour would resolve this problem? It's kind of vaguely like the no-dachi thing in Shogun (need to have a very great soldier - legendary swordsman - emerge from the battlefield to build them). Just making them expensive won't work; witness the all-tiger armies in PG and SP.

[shingenmitch2]

Simon --

You are dead-on about the need to make it more than just $ that creates the elietes.

I would agree that it should be a veteran unit that reaches a certain level and then becomes available to be upgraded.

[Barkhorn1x]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ Nov. 07 2003,08:22)]I would agree that it should be a veteran unit that reaches a certain level and then becomes available to be upgraded.
Here, here - an excellent idea

Barkhorn.

[RisingSun]

Yes, lets hope that the developers see it before it is too late.

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ Nov. 07 2003,04:08)]It's kind of vaguely like the no-dachi thing in Shogun (need to have a very great soldier - legendary swordsman - emerge from the battlefield to build them).
The favourite STW feature that didn't make it into MTW...

BRING IT BACK Yes... This would be real nice.

A unit has to fight at least X battles, and fight them well. Then that unit becomes the first Triarii unit and from then on you can train them.

Or make it so the Romans can train a Cohort unit of one Hastati, Principes and Triarii each (Triarii half the size of the other two).

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (Kraxis @ Nov. 10 2003,10:23)]
Citera[/b] (Simon Appleton @ Nov. 07 2003,04:08)]It's kind of vaguely like the no-dachi thing in Shogun (need to have a very great soldier - legendary swordsman - emerge from the battlefield to build them).
The favourite STW feature that didn't make it into MTW...

BRING IT BACK Yes... This would be real nice.

A unit has to fight at least X battles, and fight them well. Then that unit becomes the first Triarii unit and from then on you can train them.
No, it can get quite annoying sometimes. I never got no-dachies once and I was playing Shimatzu. But if it's non-random then I like it. But what is preventing you from building a pure elite army afterwards?

Someway to limit production should be good, but maybe it's enough to have several turns as building time and it's logical. Thanks to improvments on having larger numbers it can be enough.

Can't you have 60 regiments at once now? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif (20 you, 40 AI I think).

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Ironside @ Nov. 10 2003,11:49)]No, it can get quite annoying sometimes. I never got no-dachies once and I was playing Shimatzu. But if it's non-random then I like it. But what is preventing you from building a pure elite army afterwards?
No, I believe the Legendary Swordsman had to kill around 10 enemies before the event happened. Yes that could take time, but at least it made some sense and it made those No-Dachi that much more interesting and special.
Besides, it never took all that long (30 years at max) before I got the event, even the AI got them rather easily.

Nothing is preventing me from training Triarii afterwards, but I think it is better if we need some sort of event first (naturally some sort of tech would be needed too). It isn't like the Romans themselves went about and built new buildings and suddenly they had researched the Triarii... No, in fact the Triarii were the remnants of the old system where the Roman army was like a Greek Hoplite phalanx.

[dessa14]

i think this would work you place 2 or 3 groups of level 2 (whatever they are called) in a province with triaii building capability you click on triaii unit takes one year to build but after building it you notice that the best troops in each of your old divisions are now normal triaii.
thanks dessa

[Sir Moody]

ok firstly historically theTriarri and Hastati, and principes had been around since the 4th century BC and probably before that - they were organised and armed differently but they were present so an event to build them makes no sense they would allready be present when the game starts - on the other hand the Veteran upgrade idea is a sound and correct way of dealing with it historically- and it wouldnt change multiplayer as they would count as different units then

[Hakonarson]

You wouldn't have whole units of legionaries "advancing" to become triarii.

Initially Roman legions were recruited for a single year, and you would be in teh apprpriate troop type for all that time.

As time went on and service became longer, individual soldiers would be "advanced" through the units as required and as rreplacements became available.

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Nov. 24 2003,16:27)]You wouldn't have whole units of legionaries "advancing" to become triarii.

Initially Roman legions were recruited for a single year, and you would be in teh apprpriate troop type for all that time.

As time went on and service became longer, individual soldiers would be "advanced" through the units as required and as rreplacements became available.
Yes, that is true, but since we most likely won't disband many legionary troops after we have trained them, we will lack a great deal of Triarii 'population'. The game is after all just agame, and an advancement due to experience would still be better than just training them all you want (population aside).

[LadyAnn]

I think I hate the "build the building, train the troops" way of MTW and STW. The tech tree makes it very artificial.

I would imagine that:
1. Starting with peasants, have nothing in hands, fight with perhaps a club and is not trained at all. No armor.

2. Give the peasants some armors and call them something else. (If you could purchase armor and equipe the peasants, they became says militia). They would still have un-trained fighting skills, low morale kinda thing.

3. The war machine is on conscript-based at the beginning. You call for arms, the recruits came to fight (either by force of servitude or by lure of spoil of war). Recruit may come with some percentage of certain arm/armor prevalent for the period (and the richness of the land). The govnerment may give the soldiers some more arms and armors (the armory).

4. Now, as you station part of your army in the forts, you may ugrade them to become better fighters. Training is based on how long the guys stay and train. A group of peasants stationed in a fort for 5 years may master better skills already. A group of militia, after training with the swords for a period of time, became Men-at-arm, to use Medieval terminology.

5. Goes for some specialized weapons: give the weapons to untrained troops may have lower combat effect than give the weapons to highly trained troops.

6. Elite troops are a percentage of the army. In later, more professional army, the percentage is higher. However, battle harden troops may gain "valor" and became another unit type if properly "distilled". THis is on per-man basis, not whole unit.

7. I would prefer to be able to say: "1/3 of the unit is ne recruit, 1/3 is from the best in the army and 1/3 is the rest." This would fit the Roman system.

8. I would depart from "buying" troops concept. You buy arms/armors and mercenary services. You "pay" soldiers stippents to retain their services (currently maintenance costs). So, you actually pay more to train elite troops.

9. How this would help Multiplayers? We may get away with the concept of how to balance game with a set number of florins (money) for each faction.

Annie

[Ludens]

Lady Ann,

I like your idea. It is very realistic, not like the: "one year training and you got troops" of the other TW-games.
BUT it would be very complicated, would require the interface the display a lot of information and would require the player to process that information. It also would require a lot of unit names: how would you name a unit which has been trained with spear and bow and has level 3 weapons upgrades, zero armor and a swimming-certificate.

When there are 4 troop stacks, a castle and an agent in a province, I already start to lose oversight: so many different troop types with different armor/weapons upgrades and experience, and morale and discipline are not even shown in the interface (I'm refering to STW, but perhaps MTW has a different 'strategic' interface?). So, how would that be if your proposal was used? It would scare off a lot of potential gamers, and make it a game for die-hard management generals. Very realistic, but then, real generals have all the time in the world to manage their troops, and an administrative staff to take care of that.

So, perhaps it is not the best idea.
I would like it though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

Ludens

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I believe that there is a solution to the problem.

What about if, instead of a "Legendary Swordman" event, we would have a "Valour Evolution" system?

What I mean by this is:

1-At the beggining, after swordmen and armourer upgrades, we can only train Princeps.

2-After each battle, all the soldiers that reach 10 kills (total of kills per soldier) and survive, are separated automatically by the game in a new unit - Hastari. No retraining available.

3-After each subsequent battle, all soldiers of the Hastari units that reach 30 kills (total of kills per soldier) and survive, are separated automatically by the game in a new unit - Triari. No retraining available.

With this system, it will be EXTREMELLY IMPORTANT not to waste the Hastari and speccially the Triari in futile engagements. What this means is that only the most habile generals will be able to gather suficient number of Hastari and Triari to become dominant...

Any comments? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Ironside]

I wouldn't dare to acually engage with my Triari with that system http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Think about it, you gone through alot of work to actually gain one unit Triari and after one close battle or one slight mistake (one unit took a little bit of pounding, the enemy routed through it), my entire elite army is gone. Yes it's realistic but not funny.
Isn't that a problem with knights now from time to time. You hit them in the back, they rout and kills half the knights if you're unlucky.

[Ludens]

Except for that, you would also have to start with hastati units of say 12 men. It would work if had gigantical battles with thousands of men, but at the beginning of the game you the armies simply aren't big enough. Perhaps a better idea would be to upgrade unitwise. If a unit reaches a average valour level, it would be promoted. But this also has its problems.

Ludens

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I am in total agreement with An (it happens, once in a while http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). If RTW keeps the MTW system of buying troops, I am sure I won't play the SP campaign.

A very old topic...

Armies; buying or recruiting (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=19;t=5804)

The only SP campaign I had fun in was a Golden Hord one where full stack of loyalist were popping up all the time due to very low overall loyalty (I'm even thinking of lowering loyalty on the whole map; and that would make Portugal look good). I could picture those full stack of loyalist being armies raised. Most of the time the composition of those loyalist was better than the usual whatever medley of SP armies; I truely hate those, when I see them, it make me want to play something else. I would be extremly disappointed to see medley legion of whatever in RTW.

This is a real critical question.

I hope the MTW system of buying troops will be completly redesigned.

Louis,

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]This is a real critical question.

I hope the MTW system of buying troops will be completly redesigned.
I really don't understand your dilema with MTW's system... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

You can have native (trainable) units and foreign (hirable) units. What's the problem with that?

Are you talking about balancing issues?

In fact, if the game had been released with just one option, EVERYBODY would have complained...

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] ]am in total agreement with An (it happens, once in a while ). If RTW keeps the MTW system of buying troops, I am sure I won't play the SP campaign.

A very old topic...

Armies; buying or recruiting

The only SP campaign I had fun in was a Golden Hord one where full stack of loyalist were popping up all the time due to very low overall loyalty (I'm even thinking of lowering loyalty on the whole map; and that would make Portugal look good). I could picture those full stack of loyalist being armies raised. Most of the time the composition of those loyalist was better than the usual whatever medley of SP armies; I truely hate those, when I see them, it make me want to play something else. I would be extremly disappointed to see medley legion of whatever in RTW.

This is a real critical question.

I hope the MTW system of buying troops will be completly redesigned.

Louis

Well you actually don't buy troops, you train them and form their units. That's why it takes one turn to get them compared to mercs witch you buy. Poor AI is the reason why they are building a poor army not the system. And about loyalist rebellions read polish history in the 1600th-1700th centuries and you'll see why they are better than the real army. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/read.gif

But back on suggestions. I do hope that more elite units takes longer to train, because obsolete units exist in MTW and in RTW it would get quite extreme.
Why would you buy Priciples, when you can get Triaris in the same amount of time?
In MTW, the feudal line gets obsolete, but it's explainable by new teknologies. And in MTW it's normal (it was so in the real life) that you'll have a large population of different troops types to recruit from (explains why you can get chivalric knights in one turn when they have trained their entire life).
But in RTW, were you got more experienced troops called another name it's hard to explain why it would be as easy to train an elite army as fast as an recruit army.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Well, I was making an example.
Instead of 10 kills to reach Hastari standard, you could have only 5 kills per men.
As for the Triari stage you could have only 10 kills per men...

It's just a question of balance. i believe CA won't be excessivelly limitative.