View Full Version : Medmod IV v3.13 Update
Version 3.13 of the Medieval Mod IV is now posted at my webpage, wes.apolyton.net .
I also spent well over an hour re-modelling the page to make it clearer and easier to find what you are looking for, so let me know if you find it to be a help to you.
As I said in the topic description, this is a big update, probably the last major one before the next version of the mod. I have continued to refine the mod, and I have also included some provincial and faction changes that I had originally planned to introduce in version four. By including them now, we will be able to get an idea of how well they work, and thus put us ahead in the mod's evolution.
I will cover some of the smaller changes in the update first, and work my way up to the more significant ones. I also plan to go back to the 3.12 thread sometime and answer all the stuff raised there, which I will paste in here so that we can keep things together.
My latest game was as the Poles in Late, which gave me a good chance to see how all their units worked together. This playtesting prompted me to remove the Czeladz Bowmen from the Polish lineup, since I found that I preferred to use Szekely instead, even in the Late era.
After deciding to remove the Bowmen, I looked around to see if any other faction could use the unit, and I saw that the French/Burgundians didn't have any missile cavalry. Since they were known for both their Crossbowmen and cavalry, and since the vanilla game gives a Mtd. X-bow bonus in Burgundy, I decided to give them the unit, simply called Mounted Crossbowmen for the moment.
As the Poles I also found myself lacking a dedicated, viable knight unit until Rycerz could be constructed, so I reverted the Czeladz Lancers back to their original role as Teutonic Sgts., available in High, and I added a new unit to the game, Czeladz knights.
This setup also allowed me to move the Kns of Dobrzyn to the Late era, which better fit both their stats and their historical description.
In addition, I changed some of the region bonuses to emphasize cavalry and blade infantry over spear and pike units. Included in the changes was moving the bonus for Teutonic Sgts to Livonia. I moved the Gothic Ft Kns from Pomerania to Lorraine so that I could give Pomerania's bonus to the Poles, for Rycerz Swordsmen.
In my game, the Silesian Pikemen got chewed to pieces no matter who I was facing, even with the valour bonus in Silesia, so I gave Silesia's bonus to the Polish Militia instead. It seemed odd to continue to call them Silesian Pikemen and Spearmen, when they got no bonus there anymore, so I changed their names to Mazovian Spearmen and Galician Pikemen. I may not have made the appropriate changes in the names text, however, so keep that in mind.
I re-vamped the regional bonuses for the Muslim factions as well, selecting later, more powerful units. These bonuses are detailed in the faction description doc.
I removed the bows from Ottoman Infantry and Hashishin, and gave them new textures to match. This gives each Muslim faction a dedicated melee unit for each era, except the Turks who have the very capable Janissary Archers in High.
All Muslim factions still have at least one hybrid unit to complement the Desert Archers, but these additional melee units should allow the AI to perform much better than before.
The Hashishin are the only new unit the Almohads and Egyptians get in the Late era, and it should allow them to compete better with both the Christians and the Turks.
I have awarded both Toulouse and Provence to the Aragonese in both the High and Late eras. Thus the Aragonese grow from a minor to a major power over the course of the Age.
To add another twist, I removed Sicily and Malta from their list of Homelands, which they never really should have belonged to.
I also removed the faction price bonus for the Spanish/Aragonese bodyguard units, since they are already discounted 25% like all their other units.
I gave Naples to the Venetians in Late, and split the Italians into the two factions that have been discussed before. I also took France's lone remaining eastern province, Cyprus, and gave it to the Venetians, thus they control all three eastern Med island provinces to go with Venice and Naples.
I also created a land link between Rhodes and Nicaea, to help keep the Byz from getting cut off and made impotent in the High and Late eras.
I used the Sicilians as the new Genoese Confederacy, since they are only in the Late era at this time. This new faction controls Milan, Tuscany and I believe Corsica in addition to Genoa. It will be interesting to see how this works out.
Using the Sicilians to stand in for the Genoese necessitated allotting them access to Pavisiers and the Italian bodyguard units. I don't think this will be a big deal when the AI controls the Sicilians, while the player can decide whether or not he wants to exploit this access.
In order to weaken the Italians in the earlier eras, without breaking them up, I gave the Papal States back to the Papacy in Early, and I gave Constan to the French in High, to help bolster their forces in the east. When the new factions are added in version four, these French possessions will be given to the new Crusader States faction.
There is a bug in the program as far as the creation of rebelling units, but I also found a hole in my plans for the medmod's use of Crusader units as the basis for most rebelling troops. I forgot to realize that non-Crusading Catholic factions did not have access to these units in some cases, and I rectified this.
In other odds-and-ends,
I restricted Woodsmen to the Balkans and eastern Baltic provinces, since all the factions in the rest of Europe now have their own early era melee unit.
I may restrict them to certain factions in the future.
I restricted Germanic Kns to the Swiss and Muslims for the same reason.
I believe it was Old Templar in the 3.12 thread who pointed out that the Muslims received no titles for building Grand Mosques. I don't know if this was a bug or not; if so it goes back to CA and the original game. I went ahead and gave them titles comparable to the Christian ones.
Finally, I went through the High campaign file like I did for the Late file last week, and customized the starting buildings in every province to match their faction. Factions should now begin with access to all Early era units in at least one province, and be close to producing their High bodyguard unit in their capital and perhaps one other province, especially if that province gives a bonus for the unit. (This took an entire afternoon if you're wondering.)
I checked out the Byz in High to see it looked, and I think you can now put together a powerful enough army to re-take Constan fairly quickly, though it will be interesting to see how the now more regionally powerful French react. At least you won't have an Italian juggernaught coming at you if you try.
In all these changes, I am sure there are some I forgot to mention, and I'll try and address those in my responses to the 3.12 posts below.
The Wizard
11-06-2003, 11:02
Well I really like your mods, makes things a lot more interesting
Tell me, is it able to continue 3.12 games with 3.13? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Below is a paste of one of my posts in the 3.12 thread, and contains additional changes made for this latest update.
I also went through and updated the Readme and Excel spreadsheets, though I forgot to remove Sicily and Malta from the Sp/Ara Homelands list.
And speaking of Malta, I think TS will get a kick out of a couple of the changes I made there.
Finally, I continued to flesh out the faction descriptions in that doc, which also contains accurate info on all the latest changes to region bonuses, units, etc. I think about all the factions now have a solid paragraph or two, covering their situation and the make-up of their forces. If you haven't perused that file in a while, I think you will find it worth the effort.
"Everyone, keep tabs on the strength on rebellions and re-appearances. I read in another thread that the all-artillery revolts are an old bug in the game that seems to be making a re-appearance with the patch.
"Trebizond starts with an Inn but is not a Mercenary province.
Turcoman Foot Soldiers still have the Slav Javelinmen description.
Woodsmen don’t have shields on the Battle screen.
Expanded Farmland still appears as Forest Clearings in the build summary.
Improved Ploughs still appears as Farmland +60% in the build summary."
"Ok, I deleted the Inn. I had already gone and added goods for Georgia and Provence.
As for the Turcoman Foot, I had figured YG would have done that, but with his apparent disconnection, I wrote up one.
I decided to just remove the shield from the Woodsmen. I had been feeling they were a little too powerful, anyway. I upped their defense and armour by 1 each to halfway compensate for the shield removal.
I fixed the Forest Clearings to use the existing +40% description, and wrote up the Completed statement to read Farmland +40%. I think the old completed messages are fine.
I decided to increase the speed of the Pavisiers and the other slow spearmen to a normal walking speed. I dropped the Sailors to normal speeed as well, so now their line should move out together.
I also decided to replace the Town Watch 4 requirement for Heavy Inf with a Swordsmith 3, and add a Swordsmith to the requirements for Light Infantry. This leaves the Town Watch line for the halbardiers, makes Swordsmiths necessary for all bodyguard units, and gives the Italians a need for a Swordsmith Guild.
I don't know why the AI would prefer Pavisiers to Light Inf, since the Lt Inf have much higher priority values.
I reduced the Armourer's Guild to a Shop for the Pavisier Pikemen, and replaced the Town Watch 3 with a Spearmaker Guild. This makes them available with Castles, which fits with the Italian advantage in spear units, and leaves the Town Watch for the halbardier line of units.
I may change the name of the Pikemen to avoid the confusion with the pavise. I had thought to have the pavise represented by the extra armour of these pikemen. Anyone know of a good name?
Making the Swiss Arm. Pikes disciplined in a good suggestion for making them different from the regular pikemen and all the other varieties.
As for the names of the Danish/Swedish units, this goes back to my decision to leave off from historical accuracy to make a Catholic faction specializing in blade units, much like the Italians in spear and halbard units.
The other stuff, like the large shields for the pavise sailors and the discounts on the Mongol units is intentional. Pavise shields give no melee protection, so I fudged a little, using the pavise designation to represent the superior armour of the Italians."
Here is a paste of Quokka's from 3.12 which raises several questions.
"The French Lancers are only slightly weaker but they are fast. The Spanish faction description says they get a discount on units because their wars were typically reunification and patriotic wars rather than wars of Expansion. This is why they have lower upkeeps than other factions, but you are right the Lancers are the weakest of the Late Heavy Cav units available to Catholics."
Wes: I have thought about re-naming the Spanish knights, and perhaps giving them the Lancer unit, with its present stats. This would seem to fit more with their hotter climate and the traits necessary to combat the Muslims.
The French would get a unit with the heavier Kns of Santiago stats. What I am most lacking is historical names, just like for the Pavisier Pikemen.
"Another thing I hope you change Wes is the Swedes campmap colour...."
Wes: I spent a good bit of time trying to find unique colors for each faction, and I encoded them into the faction description doc. I forgot to mention this earlier. Let me know what you think.
"This brings me to another point. The Rebels are very limited in what they can build. Only Spearmen, Woodsmen and Peasants in Early are available everywhere. Berserkers, Kerns, Spanish Javelinmen and Celtic Warriors are all only available in Early but are limited to specific provinces. I think Handgunners and Arquebusiers will become available in Late but would require the Gunsmith to be in the rebelling province. Rebel forces will be unable to protect themselves after Early and poorly even then. How about assigning some of the generic units such as Archers and Militia units to the Rebels to perk them up a bit."
Wes: Rebellion troops should have an excellent mix of troops when they are created. Typically, if they remain rebel, their maintenance costs render them unable to build any new troops anyway, so I don't want to take a chance on messing up the current setup just for this. In my mind, rebel provinces exist only to be invaded, so I don't worry about them anyway.
"I have had three major re-emergence rebellions so far. The English got a huge army of Crusader units, all good stuff no artillery. The Byzantines got a good mix of Heavy Cav and Infantry (didn't save them though). They also had several smaller loyalist rebellions on their way down and they were also excellent troops.
The Pope on the other hand got 2400 Italian Sailors and 8 Catapults plus his bodyguard unit."
Wes: I hope I solved this by including the Papacy and other non-Crusading Catholics in the Crusader units' list of available factions.
These factions can't build Crusades now, either, so even if they capture a House they still can't produce Crusades.
I also forgot to mention earlier that I gave the Aragonese back their ability to Crusade, since I made them so much stronger in the later eras.
"Jacque Schtrapp
Observations.
The Turks in the Late era begin the game a minimum of ten years away from being able to build any infantry unit of any type in Rum. All of their other provinces will take much longer.
Is there supposed to be a title associated with building a great mosque as the Egyptians in the High era? If so they aren't getting it.
Wes: Ok, so it was you rather than OT. I gave Rum an Academy to start the Late era, along with the ability to produce Jan Archers, so I think they should be ok now.
"The Burgundians begin the late era without any heirs. They also cannot build a chapter house which prevents them from building Compagnies d'Ordannance."
Wes: I never have noticed this, either. I checked, and the Swedes had no heirs as well. This will be included in 3.14 I guess. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
The House requirement for the Compagnies was an error, and no other Foot Kn unit requires them either, to answer another comment that was made.
"The Crusader bonuses in Palestine, Antioch, and Tripoli really hurt the Egyptians by depriving them of troop advantages. At the very least I think the bonus in Syria should be changed from assassins and given to and Egyptian type of unit, perhaps an infantry unit like Nubians or Abyssinians."
Wes: I think you'll like the new way the bonuses are laid out now. Most all of the important Muslim units now get one. The real problem before was that I had selected relatively unimportant or missile units. Most all of their melee units get a bonus now, except the Janissaries, which don't need it imo.
Quokka
"The Swedes (Novgorod) have a faction advantage for Rogatina Infantry but can’t build them.
The Burgundians have a faction advantage for Mounted Crossbowmen but can’t build them.
The Sicilians have a faction advantage for Khazar Royal Cavalry but can’t build them.
The Almohad, English, HRE, Hungarians, Polish, Russians and Turkish have ALL of their Heavy Cavalry units at a faction discount.
The Swedes have all the Danish faction bonuses plus, Woodsmen, Bondi and Viking Karls."
Wes: I didn't catch the Rogatina one, but it really doesn' matter. I don't know where the Khazar Cav came from. The Burgundians should be fixed with the new unit, and the rest are intended.
"In other news...
Saracen Infantry are not available in Armenia
Hashishin are not available in Armenia
Janissary Infantry have Armenia listed twice"
Wes: I didn't get to this post before releasing the update. Another item for 3.14.
"Wes, why not get yourself set-up with a PayPal account, so it would be easier to send "donations" in support of your HUGE mod? I never saw any notice of this anywhere, but for as much as I have enjoyed playing, and learned from, your mod, it'd be worth it.
One quick question - can the 3.12 mod be played on MTW:VI version 2 (unpatched VI)? I'm getting tired of my heavy cav getting bogged down with routing light inf/archers."
Wes: I have been meaning to put my PayPal info in the readme, but I keep forgetting. I'll have to make a point of it I guess. I may also add a form to the webpage so you can make donations from there, if I can figure out how to do it. It seems like everyone on Ebay has this, so it shouldn't be too hard.
And yes, the mod can be played with or without the patch.
BTW, the intro video has been spiced up and converted to the correct format, so there should not be anymore problems with it.
Razor1952
Wes, enjoying your mod, playing Swedes early. They seem well-balanced. Comments are:
-I like the stopping of coastal shipping around spanish coast, would like the ability to build caravels in early once the compass is discovered(1167?)
Wes: It can be done, but that would mean a long time before another ship type arrived. It's no big deal to me, and if some of the rest of you want it, it should be simple to implement.
-maybe it would be too massive a change but I would like the ability to build the bonus troop for that province if you capture that province,(eg get Ireland then can build Bonnachts (but only in ireland)).
Wes: There's no way to do that.
-Having no the Ai peasants means it not as easy to upgrade the valour of your troops in battle, a good and bad thing, nevertheless one strategy that is strongly discouraged in your mod.
Wes: True.
-Without being presumptuous I wonder if I could suggest that peasants get built when farms are present , and the higher level farm gives valour for the poor things. Having tried that it didn't lead to the ai producing masses of peasants but it did make a few.
Wes: "If" you could balance it, I wouldn't mind having some around, but it's something that I would want to leave to someone else like yourself to play with, since there are still major balance issues to work out with important units. Also, remember that if you have a valour 3 or 4 peasant, then he's not really a peasant anymore, is he? I mean, you'll probably want to use him in battle, and not for garrisons, which is the only place I believe peasants should be used.
As for the Silesian Spearmen, they are simply the original Chiv Sgts with a new name, so if they are running on you, you must be doing something wrong, or not accounting for some morale factor. I just finished my game as the Poles, Late, and they always performed as expected for me.
ToranagaSama
11-06-2003, 14:13
Quote[/b] ]And speaking of Malta, I think TS will get a kick out of a couple of the changes I made there.
Oh So you're gonna make me stop playing Homeworld2. Wonderful, I need a break. Downloading.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
May I say removed Czeladz Bowmen from polish army is uncorrect. Polish cavalry was mainly consisted with mountain crossbowmens in late medieval. In battles, i.e. at Grunwald (Tannenberg) 1410, mounted crossbowmens fired at teutonic's cavalry above heads own knights and then fought in melee.
Szekely was specific hungarian units. Polish forces hadn't Cumans units as Szekely, because after Mongol Invasion Cumans moved to Hungary, not to Poland.
And in battle in late Medieval Poles used mainly crossbows because they fought with heavily armoured Teutonic Order's cavalry and infantry.
Surprise in XVI-XVII centures fine medium polish and lithuanian cavalry ("pancerni") used either composite bows and pistols as missile weapon.
I like your mod and I hope you understand my comment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif .
Jacque Schtrapp
11-06-2003, 18:04
Souds great Wes.
One thing I failed to mention earlier is that the Rycerz Swordsmen build sheet and build queue icons appear with a sword and shield but the unit on the field is only equipped with a sword. Can't check the unit prod from work. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I had some wierd shennanigans when I updated from 3.12 to 3.13. After installing 3.13 I ended up with 3 MM_Early, 2 of MM_High and MM_Late They all played different games. I did a clean install and just installed 3.13 and I only have one of each now but no MM_Viking campaign.
Some quick observations while I was updating my build sheets.
Teutonic Sergeants have a bonus in Livonia but can’t be built there.;)
Aragon can build a Chapter House but not a Crusade.
Russian Huscarles and Berdyshi are available in Volyhnia, but no other Russian units are.
Georgia and Provence have Mercenaries but no other trade goods in Early and High. Bulgaria was given Grain. Georgia has Furs and Provence Wood in Late ONLY.
Provence has a bonus for both Partisans and Chevaliers. I think more double bonus provinces would work, especially in overlapping homelands and in the Levant. I moved Chevaliers back to Toulouse, added Saracen Infantry to Palestine and Dromons to Cyprus (maybe the silly Byz will build some ships and save themselves).
The Mongols and Turks build Muslim ships but are unable to build any ships on the Black Sea other than in Trebizond.
Nicaea and Georgia are Turkish Homelands and Kiev, Khazar, Moldavia and Crimea are Mongol Homelands.
The Almohads are still unable to build boats in their Atlantic homelands, the closest province is Brittany.
I am of the firm opinion that Bedouin Camel Warriors are crap. They are useless outside of the desert and pretty useless in it, they die in the thousands and it’s not unusual to capture 300-400 of them each battle because they are slow and can’t get away from anything and because the Egyptians build thousands of them. A bonus on Saharan Cavalry would be better, they are very fast and usable if the Egyptians expand beyond the desert, I know I hate facing them, which I think makes it a good thing for the AI. How about Giving the Saharans a bonus in the Sinai and moving the Mamluk bonus to Arabia and nerf the Bedouins.
The same goes for Berber Camels, they are a very limited use unit. All other Cavalry archers are fast or very fast and can avoid most of the light/medium cavalry sent after them, the Berbers can’t avoid any. I gave the Tunisian bonus to Nubian Spearmen to help the Almohas handle the Spanish Knights.
Abyssinian Guards aren’t special enough. Their build requirements (Unique Palace), region limits (6 North African provinces), cost (350) and stats (4/3/0/1/2, AP, Fast) make them unlikely to be built. The Palaces of the Almohads (Algiers) and Egyptians (Egypt) are in provinces that will most likely be building something else. Khwarazmians have a bonus in Algiers and are available at the same time. Arab Infantry (4/4/1/1/2, Lge Shield) have higher stats for a lower cost (275) and can be built anywhere in the Almohad and Egyptian homelands and are available in Early and High. In Late Hashishin (5/5/3/3/2, Sm Shield, Fast) become available in all Muslim homelands. The build requirements for Abyssinians are the same as vanilla VG’s but their stats are nowhere near equal. The Almohads also have their Almohad Urban Militia (3/4/2/2/2, Lge Shield) which is even cheaper and better than Arab Infantry with their advantage.
Half the price, lose the Palace and Ghazi's are back, Ghazi, Ghazi, Ghazi. I miss my Ghazi's.
I don't think these affect the game.
Hashishin have Projectile type = none but have 32 Ammo
Ottoman Infantry have Projectile type = none but have 28 Ammo
Jacque Schtrapp
11-07-2003, 22:26
Mercia has both an armorer and an armorers workshop in the building panel at the bottom of the strat map. I've never seen two buildings from the same building progression on the map at the same time. Weird. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Quote[/b] ]I had some wierd shennanigans when I updated from 3.12 to 3.13. After installing 3.13 I ended up with 3 MM_Early, 2 of MM_High and MM_Late They all played different games. I did a clean install and just installed 3.13 and I only have one of each now but no MM_Viking campaign.
I have installed the 3.13 mod and find that from the campaigns offered I only have the MM Early Campaign - the other ones available are not MM 'type'. They are now...
The Vikings
Early Period
MM Early Period
Late Period
Is that how it is supposed to be for this mod...?
The mod was installed on a new copy of the game whch had the 2.01 patch and no previous copy of MM mod.
Morgan
Jacque Schtrapp
11-08-2003, 01:09
I would suggest creating a new folder on the desktop, installing the mod to that folder, and then "copy" and "paste" into the proper directory you chose for MM3.13. Don't forget to select "Yes to all" when it prompts you for over-writing permission. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Ok, thanks for the error reports. Little things like this are to be expected in an update this big.
Morgan, something must have gone wrong in the installation, because everything shows up for me, and no one else has reported the omissions.
As far as double entries for region bonuses, this is something that OCS, I believe, did quite a bit of research on in the Spring. IIRC, the double entries affected how the AI reacted, but I "think" we concluded that the bonuses for the second unit were not awarded. The valour bonus can be verified quickly if you want to. If it "is" awarded, I would be very interested in this for multiple reasons.
IIRC, he concluded that the AI put a major emphasis on obtaining the ability to build "all" of the bonus units given to a region, so this would be a good way to get the AI to build more ships, for example, or make more advanced buildings and structures like farm improvements. This is another item that I had put on the back burner until we got the mod to an advanced state, and saw how the AI did economically after we had worked with them for a few months.
For example, we could give rich provinces like Egypt a second bonus for berserkers, and tie berserkers to the 80% farm improvement. This would give the AI an increased incentive to build that line of improvements.
If someone wanted to test this theory out, and god mode would be a great help, it would be a very useful piece of info for the entire mod community.
I have enabled Muslim ships in Nicaea and Georgia. I'm not worried about the Mongols, whom I don't think need to be building ships anyway.
I disagree with you on the effectiveness of Camels. In my experiences they have been "major" obstacles to victory. If anyone else has opinions like Quokka's, I will re-think this.
I didn't realize how much the Palace restriction would limit the Abyssinians, and I'll remove it. I disagree with you about them being over-priced, though, since I place a high value on their AP and speed advantages.
Adi, I wasn't aware of the significant role that mounted crossbowmen played in the Polish forces. The problem for me is that I "really" like the Polish cav lineup as it now stands. I guess I could restrict the Szekely to the Huns, and give the Poles access to the mtd x-bow unit along with the French/Burgundians. It has the original unit stats, so it wouldn't be any good in melee. The Poles already get an extra unit in the Kns of Dobrzyn, so I wouldn't feel good about giving them a later, stronger unit, specially with the way the AI usually mis-handles missile units.
Thank you Wes for your reply however...
I installed MW and then VI and then the 2.01 patch.
I then copied that folder to another hard drive to make a back up of a clean un modded Total War.
I installed both the parts of your mod to the installed game.
Medmod_IV_v3_Graphics
Medmod_IV_3.13
What works now is the start up logo - that is great no black screen like the 3.12.
However I get the choice of...
The Vikings
Early Period
MM Early Period
Late Period
I get NO other choice on starting a period - this applied for the 3.12 and now the 3.13 mod.
When selecting the type of game to start I do get the v 2.01 in the top left and your MM 3.13 in the top left of the selection screen.
The installation goes with ZERO difficulty and I have tried this a number of times now with both the 3.12 and then the 3.13 - at no time was an installation of the 3.1 made over the top of the 3.12.
I could suggest that as some people, me included, did not know what to expect in selecting an era from your mod then they might not know to report an issue that they don't recognise.
It was only Quokka's post that prompted me to respond, even though I have mentioned it before and included it in my post within your 3.12 thread - dated November 3rd http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Thank you for any help.
Morgan
Quote[/b] ]Morgan, something must have gone wrong in the installation, because everything shows up for me, and no one else has reported the omissions.
Could it be something as simple as not scrolling down far enough. I know that there is no MM_Viking included in 3.13 and the list he shows is the same as I have before I scroll down....
EDIT: Obviously not
Quote[/b] ]IIRC, he concluded that the AI put a major emphasis on obtaining the ability to build "all" of the bonus units given to a region, so this would be a good way to get the AI to build more ships, for example, or make more advanced buildings and structures like farm improvements. This is another item that I had put on the back burner until we got the mod to an advanced state, and saw how the AI did economically after we had worked with them for a few months.
For example, we could give rich provinces like Egypt a second bonus for berserkers, and tie berserkers to the 80% farm improvement. This would give the AI an increased incentive to build that line of improvements.
If someone wanted to test this theory out, and god mode would be a great help, it would be a very useful piece of info for the entire mod community.
Wasn't Rum a double bonus province in vanilla. I am sure that it got a bonus for both the Ottoman Infantry and Sipahi and both worked. I'll check it out because your absolutely correct it would be awesome to dangle some carrots in front of the AI's nose.
Quote[/b] ]I disagree with you on the effectiveness of Camels. In my experiences they have been "major" obstacles to victory. If anyone else has opinions like Quokka's, I will re-think this.
My major grievance is the amount the AI builds, thousands. They are easy to defeat. Send in an army of Turcoman Foot and Turcoman Archers with a few Horse Archers to pepper on approach, hide behind spear wall and then chase and no amount of Camels can beat your army. If you are silly enough to send horses near Camels,except chasing routers, then you get what you deserve. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I don't think the AI pays any attention to the Camel fear factor when I control them, their cav just rolls right over my Camels.
Quote[/b] ]I didn't realize how much the Palace restriction would limit the Abyssinians, and I'll remove it. I disagree with you about them being over-priced, though, since I place a high value on their AP and speed advantages.
What exactly is the AP bonus? I have never found the numeric value of the AP bonus.
Once the Palace requirement is gone they'll be a much better unit, easier to build and use. Before was the option of V1 Khwarazmians or V0 Abyssinians from Algeria, no brainer. They aren't as cheap as vanilla Ghazis is all I was saying about price. I loved the cheap and deadly Ghazis. Fast infantry rock.
I was sad to see the Ottoman Infantry lose their bows, I really like hybrids, but the AI has no clue how to use them effectively. The AI was definitely written from a Catholic army viewpoint and fights much better with a 'meat & potatoes' force than the lighter, spicier, Muslim forces.
-Isapostolos-
11-08-2003, 13:38
I installed the update, but now I cant really play it since when a start up the game (with VI) it says that i needto insert the correct cd http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif . So inserted the original MTW cd and it started up. Only it didnt start up VI but MTW. So when I wanted to play Medmod campaign, I could only play the old campaigns. The viking period also wasn't on the menu.
What's more, now that I inserted the 'right' cd, all VI logo's have disapeared and have been replaced by MTW logo's.
I have already reinstalled MTW, VI, the patch, graphics patch and v3.13 in that order, but I have had the same problems. Could somebody please explain to me whats wrong?
All seems cool. Are the Swiss supposed to be able to build Italian units? Anyway their pikeman and halberdiers are unstoppable. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Beelzebub
11-08-2003, 22:09
two words: mounted archers
Naptha throwers and other fast missile units also own legions of heavy infantry.
Mr.Scary ClanMan
11-08-2003, 23:10
Hi all i doubt any of u no me as i only just registered today, but hello anyway.Wes i think your mod is really cool the game is alot more challenging now and i am actually LOSING for once.The AI is actually invading England for once which is cool,but i do have one small problem though,being half Scottish i am a bit upset at the fact that you made the highland clansmen so weak EVEN WOODSMEN BEAT THEM ONE ON ONE NOW".Correct me if im wrong but were these not the same warriors that managed to stop the english from conquering Scotland?and one being the famous hero William Wallace?Well William was a woad raider but nearly the same,so i was wandering if you could correct this on your next update http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif .Also are there any plans to include The Scottish http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ,Irish and Welsh factions in the next update atall?I look foward to reading your reply http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Mr.Scary ClanMan
11-08-2003, 23:16
Hi all i doubt any of u no me as i only just registered today, but hello anyway.Wes i think your mod is really cool the game is alot more challenging now and i am actually LOSING for once.The AI is actually invading England for once which is cool,but i do have one small problem though,being half Scottish i am a bit upset at the fact that you made the highland clansmen so weak EVEN WOODSMEN BEAT THEM ONE ON ONE NOW".Correct me if im wrong but were these not the same warriors that managed to stop the english from conquering Scotland?and one being the famous hero William Wallace?Well William was a woad raider but nearly the same,so i was wandering if you could correct this on your next update http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif .Also are there any plans to include The Scottish http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ,Irish and Welsh factions in the next update atall?I look foward to reading your reply http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .
Mr.Scary ClanMan
11-08-2003, 23:23
Oops sent it twice by accident.I was just wandering if anyone knows of any more links for the BKBsupermod and the Hellenic mods as i am having trouble downloading them from 3d gamer as u have to wait so long and my connection times out alot.So i need a link where u can download without no queues to wait in.Any help would be much appreciated
Mr. SCM;
Understand I mean no offence (McFarland on me mother's side, eh?) but the unit type that stopped the english would (in this mod) be more the 'scots pikes' type than the clansman.
Has to do more with the unit stats than the unit name.
Wes,Quokka, Jacques? Correct me where I'm wrong, eh?
Anyroad, you should be happy to note that 'William Wallace' will show up as a hero unit, sooner or later http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
PS: welcome aboard, dude
Mr.Scary ClanMan
11-09-2003, 02:02
Yeah true but scottish pikies only appear in the late era.I just believe that the highland clansmen deserve recognition for there bravery and skill in combat as i always play early and high eras and thats when using the clansmen counts when u are the english.As in the medieval proper game there attack was on excellent and now its been edited to "good" attack.Which basically means they suck and peasants even do well against them now.Its not too much of a prob for me though as i edited them back to the right stats i just want people to no that us Scottish were proud of our warriors and this mod should atleast try to reflect that P,S:Thanks for the welcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] (Mr.Scary ClanMan @ Nov. 08 2003,17:02)]Yeah true but scottish pikies only appear in the late era.I just believe that the highland clansmen deserve recognition for there bravery and skill in combat as i always play early and high eras and thats when using the clansmen counts when u are the english.As in the medieval proper game there attack was on excellent and now its been edited to "good" attack.Which basically means they suck and peasants even do well against them now.Its not too much of a prob for me though as i edited them back to the right stats i just want people to no that us Scottish were proud of our warriors and this mod should atleast try to reflect that P,S:Thanks for the welcome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Yeah true but scottish pikies only appear in the late era.
Ermmm? I get mine in High. Will have to try again (town 4; is the build) to see exactly when. Also, peasants can't be built in high, so they no longer apply as anything except 'holding' militia.
Further, a 'screaming wall of clansmen' really can diminish an opponents day. Make no doubt about it.
'MY' problem, is that w/o a very good scot general, I tend to get serious loyalty probs from clansmen. ie; they have to be english lead, or they become rebellious. Really, any clansmen units left in Scotland seem to go to a lower loyalty state, and start rebellions. Historical, yeah, something one wants overall, sorry; not me
When the Scots become thier own faction (something being talked about for a later version, as I understand..) You may get your wish. Good on ya, eh?
Understand that Wes in no manner implies that the scot troops of any type don't have very big ones under the kilt
His mod is 'generalised', and there are only so many slots for 'special' units. I'm sure he'll take your comments under advisement.
If your looking purely for the Scots to be special, I reccomend the N:TW mod by 'the lordz'. Scots inf is just about the same as Frog Imp GD, in that mod. Remains to be seen what they (the lordz) make of thier mod, as it's still early days. Looks good tho.
Overall, remember, it's no slant on the clans
As I said, remember that there IS a william wallace 'hero' in the game, and make your own King James V, king of england. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
It CAN be done, LOL
Mr.Scary ClanMan
11-09-2003, 05:12
Yeah a 'screaming wall of clansmen' can ruin an opponents day but not in this mod.By peasants i meant woodsmen i tried them one on one and the woodies won all the time thats why its annoying.Anyway apart from that this mod really does rule,i even had Spain and Sweden invading Mercia which is good as it shows the AI actually is alot harder now,so well done Wes.I want to try the BKBsuper mod and Hellenic mods too though but cant download them as my broadband box is playing up anyone no of any links apart from the dumb '3D gamer wait in a queue for an hour download service' or if anyone could E-mail a copy of theres it would be greatly appreciated.Oh dont worry Wes im not fed up with yours im keeping yours on a seperate install as i love playin it i just wanna see what the others offer. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
-Isapostolos-
11-09-2003, 10:43
Quote[/b] (Isopostolos @ Nov. 08 2003,06:38)]I installed the update, but now I cant really play it since when a start up the game (with VI) it says that i needto insert the correct cd http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif . So inserted the original MTW cd and it started up. Only it didnt start up VI but MTW. So when I wanted to play Medmod campaign, I could only play the old campaigns. The viking period also wasn't on the menu.
What's more, now that I inserted the 'right' cd, all VI logo's have disapeared and have been replaced by MTW logo's.
I have already reinstalled MTW, VI, the patch, graphics patch and v3.13 in that order, but I have had the same problems. Could somebody please explain to me whats wrong?
Any one care to help me with this, I really want to play this mod.
I'm so desperate that I've started playing shogun again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Jacque Schtrapp
11-09-2003, 19:50
Quote[/b] (Isopostolos @ Nov. 08 2003,06:38)]I installed the update, but now I cant really play it since when a start up the game (with VI) it says that i needto insert the correct cd http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif . So inserted the original MTW cd and it started up. Only it didnt start up VI but MTW. So when I wanted to play Medmod campaign, I could only play the old campaigns. The viking period also wasn't on the menu.
What's more, now that I inserted the 'right' cd, all VI logo's have disapeared and have been replaced by MTW logo's.
I have already reinstalled MTW, VI, the patch, graphics patch and v3.13 in that order, but I have had the same problems. Could somebody please explain to me whats wrong?
It sounds like your install of VI didn't work for some reason. Did you try loading VI to see if it worked before you installed the mod? I know you have reinstalled already, but you may have to reinstall yet again. Install MTW load to see if it works. Install VI load to see if it works. Then install MM3.13 to see if it works. That is all I can think of right now. Good luck.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Hagbard la Suede
11-09-2003, 20:32
Yea,historically the "Highland clansmen" got owned by the english,but em pikes stopped em.
If you could,you should edit so sweden still can build viking units until the late era,as they dwelled in the viking age longer than the rest of scandinavia(last to convert to christianity,last to crusade etc.etc)
By the way,where is our Svea Axemen?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Mr.Scary ClanMan
11-09-2003, 20:39
I want to try the BKBsuper mod and Hellenic mods but cant download them as my broadband box is playing up anyone no of any links apart from the dumb '3D gamer wait in a queue for an hour download service' or if anyone could E-mail a copy of theres it would be greatly appreciated. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Iso, you must have downloaded the wrong mod version, probably 1.85. You can check this by noting the name of the installer program. I would also check to be sure that you installed everything to the same place. The mod is setup to install the game to the default directory.
For everyone having trouble with the mod, I went in and expanded upon the messages that pop up during the various steps of the installer program for the text portion. You need to stop and read those, and you should be able to get everything right.
Also, for those new to the mod, and some of you that aren't, you "must" read the Readme and Faction descriptions texts, or else you aren't going to understand what's going on. Don't make any assumptions about "anything" based upon the original game, since practically everything has been tweaked over the course of the mod's year-long development (about six months for both the first and the VI versions).
And even for you old-timers here, I always take care to update the faction text for each release, and it is probably the best way to get caught up on the updates, aside from the initial thread posts, where I try and go over everything in detail.
At the end of the faction text is a list of all the new factions I plan to add in the next version of the mod.
I reduced the stats of the Highlanders some time ago, when the English didn't have any decent infantry. I agree that they were too weak with the current setup, so I raised both their attack and defense by a point, and morale by 2. I must not have lowered their price with the stats, since even with the increased stats they were still priced a little too high. They are now comparable to FMAA, though you will want to try and take advantage of their superb speed and charge abilities.
For some reason I thought that the Highlanders had an AP bonus as well, but I checked the original units text and they have never had one. Claymores trade their shield for the AP bonus.
I kinda disagree with you about Highlanders beating FMAA, based upon their original stats and their description.
"What exactly is the AP bonus? I have never found the numeric value of the AP bonus.
Once the Palace requirement is gone they'll be a much better unit, easier to build and use."
The Armour-piercing bonus is towards the end of the entry. There is the shield size entry, whether it can be used in melee, the shield strength in melee, and then the AP flag, which is either Yes or No.
The AP bonus adds half of the enemy's armour value to your attack value, which means that units with the AP bonus keep growing in strength through the eras, especially in regards to heavy cavalry units.
I also went in and enabled the Burgundians in the High era to stand in for the new Crusader Kingdoms faction. This caused some trouble with bodyguard units, as with the Sicilians standing in for the Genoese, but I think I figured out a good solution.
I decided to alter the region bonus setup, and I ended up giving Jerusalem back to the Nizari (see v1.85), and Egypt to the Abyssianians. IMO, this gives all the significant Muslim infantry and cavalry units a bonus region, except for the Janissaries which I noted before.
This will get all the significant new factions into the game to test out for balancing purposes.
As for Svea Axemen, look over the current Danish/Swedish units and pick which one most closely resembles the Svea, and I doubt I will have any trouble changing the name. If you are familiar with them, go ahead and write up a unit description as well.
Mr.Scary ClanMan
11-09-2003, 20:58
True they now do compare to FMAA but in effect the highlanders should beat FMAA as they get bonus v armoured troops.I think that the highlanders attack should have been left on 'EXCELLENT' not 'GOOD' then that makes them more like how they should be.The rest of there stats are fine though.
Why not make Sweden and Denmark historicly correct? it makes it Much more fun to play. The viking era died out around year 1000 even for the swedish who a hundred year later crusaded in finland.
Both Sweden and Denmark should have knights, but should be called Hirdmen, and be less armoured then frankish and germanian knights.
The danish quickly learn the new way of fighting on horseback as knights.
As for sweden, if you are planning on making them historicly correct they should have as i have said Hirdmen as royal unit.
If you are Very nice you make 2 versions of Hirdmen.
One Eraly with good attack and armoured nad no lances.
The High and Late Hirdmen with Very good attack, very strong charge, heavy armour and lances.
But thats only if you like us sweden and want to make us happy.
(and Svean Axemen would be cool... and skip the "viking names")
/ME
Mr.Scary ClanMan
11-11-2003, 02:46
Yeah Wez u are right Highland Clansmen should not beat FMAA i got it wrong.But i still would like to see them on Excellent attack though maybe on your next update as after all that is what they were well known for.I was just wandering though do u plan to add any more factions to your mod?Like the Welsh,Irish and SCOTTISH atall.Also when im at war with the french i cant seem to be able to cross the sea between wessex and normandy even though there are no enemy boats in that part and i have a boat there.It only seems to happen when im at war with someone and is fine all other times http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Anyone else have this problem or is it just me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
-Isapostolos-
11-11-2003, 14:56
I managed to get the mod working, I have played a couple of battles and now I can't play them anymore because the levels wont load for some reason. Half way through the loader stops loading and the game crashes to the desktop without a error.
I'm sorry that my comp is such a nusance but could you please help me?
update: I tried a french game, and fought a battle against the english. My other (byzantine) game still doesn't work though. It can't be the size of the battles fought because previously I was able to fight big battles. Maybe it something with arid maps?
Jacque Schtrapp
11-11-2003, 17:05
Isopostolos, I am not certain what you mean by the "levels won't load." What "levels"? I looked back over the thread and can't find any mention of anyone else having a similar issue. You might be better off posting this in the Apothecary along with all of your system specs. Good luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Jacque Schtrapp
11-11-2003, 17:42
Playing Hugary in Late on Expert.
It's about 1420 and I can't go east because the Turks own everything. The Danes and Swedes are poised to the north and I share one border each with the Italians in Venice and Swiss in Austria. I have to expand for financial reasons and the only country I can attack and not lose all of my allies is the Swiss. They have around 500 assorted pike troops and I take my king leading 200 Knights of Banderium, 300 Bulgarian Brigands, 400 Almati Infantry, 200 Croatian Spearmen, and 6 units of Culverin Cannon.
Austria has a fortress and I was hoping that they would fight instead of retreating because I didn't want to assault the fortress. My plan was to shelter the brigands behind my Armati and use the knights to circle around behind them. Since they had no cavalry or missile units I was hoping they would hold position and my archers could whittle them down then charge, flank, blah blah. The Swiss force consists of the 9 command 7 valor Swiss Armored Pike 7 man unit, 200 more SAP, 100 Swiss Pike, 100 Swiss Halberds, and another 100 assorted unit remains.
They hid in the trees so my cannon barrage was useless. When I wandered within archer range they charged. I countered by charging the Armati and circling the knights. They cut through the Armati like a knife through hot butter then slaughtered the knights. In desperation I charged the brigands with their swords and good morale. They were also destroyed. My whole force was annihilated in about two minutes.
I was pissed. I saved then reloaded the battle determined to win at least once before I continued my campaign. I fought the battle four times. I lost the first three times. It was obvious that I needed offensive troops to deal with the pike. None of my inns were producing mercs and the Armati are the most offensive troops you can build as the Hungarians. The only time I won was when I got lucky and nailed the Swiss general with a lucky cannon shot. I've never fought the Swiss in MedMod before, somebody please let me know if they are really this awesome or if that general pushed them over the top. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
The Hungarians need some offensive help. Armati are too slow to have an offensive impact. Maybe something like the Rycerz Swordsmen?
Do the Swiss even have cavalry?
Culverin can't hit a damn thing when aiming at infantry.
Aragon has become the new Sicily. They build tons of ships and attack everyone's shipping. The funny thing is that they always start with the Sicilians. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] (WesW @ Nov. 06 2003,03:57)]My latest game was as the Poles in Late, which gave me a good chance to see how all their units worked together. This playtesting prompted me to remove the Czeladz Bowmen from the Polish lineup, since I found that I preferred to use Szekely instead, even in the Late era.
Wes,
I think the Szekely should be limited to the Hungarian. The Poles have good access to Lithuanian Cav. Those, and the Czeladz seem a good mix for the Poles.
IMO, the Szekely should be made cheaper for the Hungarians, but only available in a few provinces, to reflect their tribal origins.
AB
The Swiss are gods in this, play as them in late and everyone just bounces off. And you can build Italian and French units too, so you get the uber infantry and all the others' good stuff.
Jacque Schtrapp
11-13-2003, 17:07
Giving the Swiss a go in Late Expert. So far I control some French, German, and Italian territores. So far I can build French, German, and Italian units. I understand that factions like the Swiss and Burgundians with their two province homelands are at a distinct disadvantage in unit producing. Pairing them up with a similar neighbor makes sense such as Burgundians & French or Swiss & Germans. But they most definitely shouldn't have access to three different factions unique units. As it is, the extreme defensive quality of the Swiss units keeps them from being wiped out, but the extremely high upkeep for those same units is also what keeps them from expanding into more than two provincs before the game is over.
Even giving Genoa, Milan, and Tuscany to the Sicilians hasn't really slowed the Italian rampage through the Late era. They always invade any open provincein Africa, the Baltic, or the ME and use that as a staging point to launch more attacks in those areas. They end up by far the most powerful faction within fifty turns or so.
I've also noticed that the Burgundians are always attacked early in Burgundy by either the Germans or the French. They almost always lose the province and are eliminated shortly thereafter. I can't remember what the V&V is that the Burgundian "king" starts off with, but perhaps it might be best to change it to "field defence specialist" and give them one or two more defensive style units in order to try and prolong their longevity. A prince or two in the first five turns wouldn't hurt either. Perhaps giving him an extremely high acumen rating will offset the support costs of more units.
Hi, Wes
thank you for positive answer.
This is good idea to remain mounted crossbowmens for Polish. I read they was lightly armoured, mainly in chain mail.
Just a quick update and reply tonight...
I have been making some adjustments to provincial ownership involving the Italians and Aragonese.
I think maybe the Aragonese were too strong in the Late age, so I gave Provence to the Genoese Confederacy. I also swapped Milan and Naples between them and the Venetians. The result is that the Confederacy actually looks a little historically correct, if you consider the Confederacy to be composed of the Sicilians, Genoese and other city-states such as Pisa and Florence.
I am trying right now to keep the Italians together in the Early and High eras, so we won't have to create a new faction just for one era. To this end I made Sardinia Rebel in the High era, and I weakened Corsica's infrastructure.
I also verified that multiple units using the same province for their regional bonus DO receive the bonus. It was pretty easy to verify, actually. Has anyone noticed any irregularities with the Norman Kns when you go from the Early to the High era, or when you start a High game as the English? You see, when I converted the English BG units to cavalry, I ran into a problem in that there were only two knight units, and the game automatically goes to the second one for the High era, and stays with that unit for the Late era if a third is not listed. So, I ended up making a duplicate text entry for the Norman Kns, and restricting each unit to a single era.
Well, I changed the horse type that the High era unit used, and then started a high game as the English. The units produced during the game were the high-era unit, but the ones placed by the campaign text at the start of the game were of the early-era variety. That's another topic, but anyway I confirmed that the high-era unit did receive the Normandy bonus.
So, I decided to tie the game's two Peasant units to the 60% land improvement building, and give the Muslim unit bonuses in the fertile Muslim and Mongol provinces. I did the same for the Christian unit. I hope that the AI will put an emphasis on getting the 60% imp built in those provinces. This means that Peasants require the 60% improvement in addition to the Muster Field, but they are available in all eras now. I have not tested this out to see if the AI will make Muster Fields and start turning out hordes of Peasants again.
I had an initial urge to use this confirmation to give every unit a region bonus, but I'm not so sure that is the best thing to do, for a couple of reasons. Right now I just want to let everyone know about this, and see what comes out.
In other news, I decided to restrict the Szekely to the Hungarians, and to Moldavia, Kiev, Bulgaria and Wallachia. I restricted Lithuanian Cav to the Poles, and added Prussia as a fourth province where you can get them, as well as making them available in all eras. I hope they can suffice as the Polish mounted archer unit for the entire game.
I removed the Swiss option to use French units, and I removed all sword units from their potential lineup except Swabian Swordsmen. Just another twist I find interesting. I enabled them to use Popolo Cav, so they now have access to all the HRE and Italian missile units. This means they can build any variety, from Archers to Crossbows to Arbelests to the gunpowder units. I just think that they are now a very distinct and interesting faction to both play as and against.
Jacque, I pumped up both the Burgundians and French some. I have no control over starting V&V's. I think those must be hardcoded somehow.
I find it hard to believe that the Venetians can start with just Venice, Naples and the island provinces and dominate the Med everytime. Is anyone else seeing this?
BTW, does anyone have any suggestions for new names for the Spanish knights, at least for the early and high eras? I want to give them the Lancers for the Late era, and give the French a heavier, Santiago-type unit.
Beelzebub
11-15-2003, 18:15
Just a small bug. Organ crews (at least merc ones) have serpantine cannons, not organ guns.
juststeve
11-15-2003, 20:33
I now HATE the Horde.
I was playing MedMod 3.13, High/Normal/Poles - having fun, checking ou the new units, grabbing a few provinces. I forgot about the arrival of the Horde (DUH)
A few turns before they show up, I had been hitting Hungary + HRE, expanding towards the southwest. So, Russia figures I would enjoy a war on two fronts, and invades Moldavia + Lithuania. I get ticked off at them, just when the Pope says "2 years or else" about the HRE, defend my two lands, and jump on Kiev with both feet.
While I am laying siege to Kiev, the Horde arrive in Zhazar - and I mean a ton of stacks. I say "whew, looks like they'll be keeping the Byz/Turks real busy, maybe jump on the Russians to their north."
NOPE. They drop over 15k on my 3k in Kiev. And, oh yeah, I only had 3 Pavise Arbs as my only missle troops. I was loaded with sword/spear/cav units (my habit of blitzing the AI works great for me as long as there are not 15K enemies to deal with)
So, after about 3+ hours of butchering, I finally just run out of men - the stats only display the numbers for the last 16 units that were on the battlefield, and on there I had over 6.5k kills. But I lost my top heir, a nice young 5 star Prince. After about the fifth time I routed them, I was saying "now I understand why sometimes people turn 'Limit Ammo' off". Every unit fought until they had zero bars left - usually I was able to withdraw them, but sometimes I got caught too deep chasing fleeing units, and was mowed down by 4 fresh units of Mongol Heavy Cav coming down the hill.
Did manage to kill the Khan. Doesn't make me feel any better. I might just start an Early Era game, and turtle a little bit - just take a few lands here and there to help pay for a nice large army of about 30 stacks of missle troops LOL
Also, I haven't looked yet today, but I suspect Wes played with the projectile stats - the Horde just had some wicked range. I could not sucker them into charging across the bridge. Any unit of spear/pike that waited there was riddled with arrow volleys. 100 turned to 60 pretty quick.
Again, great job with the Mods, Wes. And I was happy to see you figured out that PayPal link, too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I had wondered what the deal was with the Organ Gun. I thought that CA must not have been able to do it right or something. I have no idea how the projectile got changed, unless it was when I re-ordered the priority stats for the artillery units a couple of months ago.
Also, I had a huge battle with the Horde last night. They invaded Khazar with 20 stacks, plus a couple thousand in Georgia and Volga-Bulgaria I think. I am playing as the New Crusader Kingdoms faction to try and get it set up correctly.
It has been a blast to play, and very challenging both militarily and economically. Many of your battles occur in arid or desert terrain, and this has a big impact on how you pick your cavalry force. I have found that knights and templars are not good picks if you are attacking in a desert, and thus I like to use Outremer Sgts. for offense, and bring in the heavy cav for defense. Of course, once you get into Asia Minor things get a little better. Their infantry lineup is unique, consisting of spearmen with some added offensive punch. I have been using my Turcoploes dismounted when on defense if I am short on infantry, for their higher defensive stats over Crossbowmen.
As for the Horde, I would recommend that you use the Shift+Number option to gain control of them every few turns or so, in order to tidy up their heavy cavalry. In my big battle, the Horde had a 4-star general, but he had no other men in his unit, so he withdrew at the start, which I think removes his effect on unit stats. I had a 6-star defending, and this turned the battle into a hard-won route, if that makes any sense. I was outnumbered in Armenia more than 2-to-1, and if the general had stayed he might have won. As it was, I managed to use my infantry well while defending a huge hill, and the end result was a 5-to-1 casualty ratio, roughly 2600 to 500, after the Horde refused ransom for my 1100+ prisoners.
Btw, the Horde archers have the range of Compound bows and the armour-piercing ability of Longbows.
If you see something that doesn't make sense, or seems odd, it is most likely mentioned in either the faction descriptions or unit notes docs.
Also, I have updated the Readme to include this new section on revolts, as well as the Paypal link and an update on the changes to provincial ownership and the Crusader Kingdoms faction.
It took me forever to figure out how to get the castle icon to appear on the webpage, and then figure out how to modify the PayPal template to work with my particular HTML program.
I never did figure out how to get the text in the downloads section to widen out to an 800 pixel page-width. I got it to widen out in the copyright section at the bottom of the page, but for some reason the downloads section won't recognize the additional column span. (Needless to say, my HTML skills are very rudimentary.)
Uprisings and Re-appearances:
I have re-worked the priorities and settings for the various types of revolts to reflect the massive changes that the mod makes to the units in the game. Basically, I have designated Crusade and Jihad units, which are detailed below, as the base units for Catholic and Muslim revolts, while individual units have been selected for the Orthodox revolts. The Crusade and Jihad units were chosen to help standardize the strength and composition of the uprisings and make it easier to change them without having to go through dozens and dozens of units for individual factions. For peasant revolts and bandits I selected individual units on the basis of both their statistics and special qualities, such as being mercenaries or regional units.
Note that there is a bug in the game with regards to revolts. Apparently this bug was in the original, 1.0 version of the game, and somehow re-appeared in the 2.01 patch. The bug seems to involve peasant revolts and uprisings which involve multiple provinces, such as faction re-appearances and the appearance of the Horde. The bug results in the creation of all-artillery or all-Naptha Thrower armies in certain provinces.
Finally, I forgot to mention this item all last week when I was posting:
If you need to get in touch with me privately about something, please send me a regular email, and avoid using the private messenger system here unless you have no other choice. I have a grand total of three messages allowed for both the inbox and sent messages folders, so it's quite annoying to receive and reply to messages.
About ten days ago I received two messages on the same day, and I accidentally deleted the one from Sinan before I read it.
Also, the email option within the private messenger doesn't allow me to reply to you unless you include your email in the text. I think it is automatically included only if you are a registered forum member and have your email address listed in your profile. There have been times in the past when a lurker or a member with no email on file here has written to ask about something, and there's not really any way to reply to them.
My email is scattered around everywhere; profile, Readmes, webpage (at the bottom), so you should have little trouble finding it.
Jacque Schtrapp
11-19-2003, 18:52
Sounds good Wes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Beelzebub
11-19-2003, 19:26
I really enjoyed playing the French in High on GA and trying to balance keeping the holy lands (and expanding to get all all the provinces), and not getting ripped to shreds by my hungry European neighbours. Since it takes a while before you can field a good army in the east, I needed to rely on mercs to maintain any kind of a balanced army in those provinces, to keep the egyptians at bay. This made income pretty tight which meant my armies at home were small compared to my Neighbours. Of course there are other strategies possible than the defensive one I used, but I hope the crusader kingdoms have the same kind of precarious hanging on by a thread balance that made playing France in High so interesting, which reflects their historical situation as well.
Some feedback on 3.13...
1) The PO is now building massive fleets. Four of five ships per sea sector. I think the number of ships built may need to be restricted. One way of doing this might be to make wood a resource required for the building of shipyards. Then place wood in a limited number of provinces. I don't claim to be a navel historian but during the game's time frame I don't think there were many major shipyards that were able to make large warships.
2) My first comment may be a function of this characteristic of the mod. As it stands now trade incomes are massive. This leads to the huge fleets and tons of army stacks all over the place. I think it's more historical and more enjoyable to have to manage a limited number of troops. To try and make this the case I've cut in half the income from trade goods. This seems to be pretty effective in limiting the size of armies. I found myself having to pick what upgrades to build instead of just building everything under the sun.
3) Right now, the province that is each factions 'home' has a very high income potential. Especially if there are trade goods there. It might be better for game play to spread out each factions income a bit more.
4) The Horde stills seems to build/use alot more infantry than cavalry. I've limited infantry building to a few of the eastern most provinces and this seems to help.
All in all, I love the mod and have been playing it alot. It reawakened my interest in MTW.
Beelzebub
11-20-2003, 02:07
I think the trade income is ok as it is. The AI uses them also, and builds up large armies. You have to match them with large armies of your own which takes up a large chunk of your income.
Playing France in late I had all of France except Acquitane, A few italian, HRE provinces and Aragon, all at 60%-80% agriculture. Also I had a full atlantic trade rout, and half a meditarranean one, and I was just pulling in about 2000 florins a turn because I had to match large English, HRE, Suisse, Papal and Danish armies on my border. More than a few times when I left an opening someone would take advantage.
Quote[/b] (Beelzebub @ Nov. 19 2003,18:07)]I think the trade income is ok as it is. The AI uses them also, and builds up large armies. You have to match them with large armies of your own which takes up a large chunk of your income.
Playing France in late I had all of France except Acquitane, A few italian, HRE provinces and Aragon, all at 60%-80% agriculture. Also I had a full atlantic trade rout, and half a meditarranean one, and I was just pulling in about 2000 florins a turn because I had to match large English, HRE, Suisse, Papal and Danish armies on my border. More than a few times when I left an opening someone would take advantage.
This has been my experience as well. I use Normal unit sizes, which are 33% larger than the default, Small, setting, and unit costs are proportionally higher as well. This would account for a somewhat reduced number of stacks in my games, but still, I only see more than one stack in the very largest battles, where you are meeting the entire attack force of a major power. And this does not affect ships at all, and I never see even the Italians with more than 1 or 2 ships in seas where they don't own a province, and hence are only there for trade.
In my current game, I have just finished conquering everything from Egypt to Constan to Khazar, and established my trading links from Aragon and Tunisia east, and only now am I rolling in the dough. I am now attacking the Sicilians, and conquering their territories will remove them from my list of links, which will probably hurt my net income.
I know the trade setup is not perfect in all situations, but I think you can only try and get it right for the first portion of the game, when you are trying to survive and then expand some. After that, the courses that a given game can take are so varied that what might be right for one game or one faction will make the game either too easy or unwinnable for another faction.
In my game, I have stayed allied with the Italians even though they are at war with three other factions, and I have ended about that same number of alliances to do so, just so I can establish trade routes with them and have less likelihood of losing my fleets on any given turn.
My choices as to which factions/provinces to attack are based largely on trade potential or the shortening of defensive lines, as they were in real life. And of course whether or not the province is one of my Homelands also plays a role.
I have been playing so-called "4X" games for a decade now, going back to Civ 1, and this game does about as well as any of them from an ecomonic viewpoint, even though that aspect is of secondary consideration, to the designers anyway. And I have seen some truely outstanding tactical manouvering by the AI lately. I don't know how much was affected by the patch, but some of it is simply inspired. There was one battle attacking the Horde where they occupied a hill and arrayed their forces in the exact same way that I would have arrayed mine had I been them. If they has simply stayed on it and used the superior range of their infantry bowmen to whittle my forces down, and then made me attack up the hill, I think they might have won. For some reason, though, they drew off a few units to come after me, letting me defend the slope I was on, and then they decided to withdraw after those attacks failed.
Myself, I wouldn't want to even consider what a programmer would have to do to produce a tactical AI like this one, so I won't quibble with sub-par performance in a few cases. I just hope they realize for Rome that the strategic and economic sides of the game have to be given the same priority as the battlefield, or else the AI is never going to be competent enough to field competitive armies, and so can never fully show what it can do tactically.
Beelzebub
11-20-2003, 07:09
Yeah the AI gets a bit screwy when you start moving your force around the battlefield. After the new patch they've started takin gbetter potisions after the initial deployment (unfortunately they still put their siege weapons at the default location making them easy to pick off (generally after I do this I let their reinforcements come in if available. But if you maneuver your force so it is attacking a weak flank r something, the AI will move it's force to a new position in accordance to your actions. But, they will sometimes screw up and not properly orient themselves, or leave a few units behind. Either way, CA has mage huge strides imrpoving the battle AI from the initial release to the last patch, I only hope we can see an equally impressive improvement for RTW.
Ellesthyan
11-20-2003, 21:15
First off, great mod
I'd like to see some more crusading. As it is now no faction is building any chapter houses, and as no faction STARTS with one, no crusades are being built. So if you could (as in 1.85) give all crusading factions a chapter house to start with it may increase the amount of crusades.
Other point: the sicilians have in the early era Italian heavy infantry as BG... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Those things are frikkin tough They slice through men and horse alike as though they were butter. Please change this to Sicilian feudals or to Italian light Infantry, as there is no point in fighting their king with his heirs - you'll lose
Would like to be able to build spearmen in every province, as garrison. Don't care what their building(s) would have to be to keep the AI from building them, as long as I can build them... Besides, every lord could buy 100 spears and give them to his peasants, and let them train a year with the weapons.
Guess I'll re-install the mod again, you seem to be updating it reguraly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Beelzebub
11-20-2003, 21:30
Kind of pointless to put spears back in as universal units but prevent the AI from building them, that's basically just giving yourself an advantage of having really cheap garrison units for internal provinces while the AI makes do with normal ones. It's not worth Wes wasting his time on, may as well just give yourself 500-1000 extra florins a year as compensation or something.
Quote[/b] (Ellesthyan @ Nov. 20 2003,13:15)]Other point: the sicilians have in the early era Italian heavy infantry as BG...
Oops. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Fortunately, this is simple to fix.
I'm going to wait another day for things like this to be reported, and then I'll post the next update. I spent Thursday working on my webpage, and yesterday polishing some things and getting the Crusader Kingdoms just right. I think this faction is going to become a fan favorite.
Just to comment on the tactical AI: The AI seems to be configured to look for one-on-one advantages, and if it detects one it will break formation to go engage, not taking into consideration that this lone unit will be all alone and subject to flanking, etc.
I'm not sure exactly how to implement this, but overall force position needs to be taken into account before you send infantry units especially out on Lone Ranger attacks.
I think that if CA will adjust the AI to attack more en masse with its infantry that it will fix one of the few remaining flaws in the tactical AI.
I just had a little moment of inspiration regarding Crusades. As those of you who have followed the mod since its inception know, I have tried giving the AI Chapter Houses to start with, which didn't work out too well, and the current system, which I guess isn't working too well either.
What I am going to try is giving the Houses at the start, but requiring a Castle in addition to build a Crusade. Then I can pick out provinces with only Keeps to place the Houses in for some factions, and I may go ahead and enable a couple of factions to build Crusades immediately in each campaign.
And of course I have added a few other little extras that I haven't mentioned yet. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
The Wizard
11-22-2003, 23:29
One point that just added to my bad mood today (some lamers pissin' me off, other lamers pissin' me off on Wc3 mp, and more... n/m. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)...
Whenever I uninstall MM v.3.13, and try to play the game as normal, XP goed blabbing about not being able to find any deadpage coords or something, and the result is: no battles. It's pretty simple to get away, by reinstalling. Problem is that takes long and I don't wanna wait nor play another game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Could you do something about this next version, Wes?
I designed the mod so that you don't have to un-install it, other than what is described in the Readme. I guess that now inserting the original deadpage coordinates text would cause the bodies for a couple of units to not appear, so I have included one in the un-install folders.
shand994
11-24-2003, 05:11
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Nov. 22 2003,16:29)]One point that just added to my bad mood today (some lamers pissin' me off, other lamers pissin' me off on Wc3 mp, and more... n/m. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)...
Whenever I uninstall MM v.3.13, and try to play the game as normal, XP goed blabbing about not being able to find any deadpage coords or something, and the result is: no battles. It's pretty simple to get away, by reinstalling. Problem is that takes long and I don't wanna wait nor play another game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Could you do something about this next version, Wes?
Why not do a seperate install of the standard MTW onyour pc, that way you wouldnt have install and uninstall the mod. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
Jim Boyd
11-24-2003, 05:16
Wes, Provence now has a valour bonus for Mercian Men-at-Arms. Does this mean FMAA?
Jim Boyd
11-24-2003, 05:23
OK, a first-post screw-up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . Toulouse has the Mercian Men-at Arms bonus, not Provence. Oh well. Love the Mod, waiting with bated breath for the next instalment. Thanks.
The Wizard
11-24-2003, 17:57
Quote[/b] (shand994 @ Nov. 24 2003,04:11)]
Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Nov. 22 2003,16:29)]One point that just added to my bad mood today (some lamers pissin' me off, other lamers pissin' me off on Wc3 mp, and more... n/m. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)...
Whenever I uninstall MM v.3.13, and try to play the game as normal, XP goed blabbing about not being able to find any deadpage coords or something, and the result is: no battles. It's pretty simple to get away, by reinstalling. Problem is that takes long and I don't wanna wait nor play another game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Could you do something about this next version, Wes?
Why not do a seperate install of the standard MTW onyour pc, that way you wouldnt have install and uninstall the mod. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
I know, I know... but ever since I did that for the original game (installed the Patrician mod), I got deterred because it takes so long http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Russ Mitchell
11-30-2003, 03:31
Hey, Wes, I finally figured out that you were no longer modifying the 1.85... we had a little "failure to communicate," and so the excel sheet should be dramatically easier to do now...
I have a number of suggestions for 3.15 regarding the historical accuracy of units and political ins and outs regarding eastern europe that you may not be aware of... particularly, the way you have the bows broken up allows for some plays to be made... let me know if you want the suggestions public or private.
Otherwise, I have to go get VI today to actually install this puppy, but it's looking good...
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