New Unit - Carthaginian Spearmen

[Barkhorn1x]

Carthaginian Spearmen:

These Carthaginians are steadfast, hard, ruthless fighters. Many of them were originally recruited among the colonists and locals of Carthage's Hispanic and Lusitanian provinces. They wear mail coats, Iberian-style pointed helmets and carry a scutum, gladius and spear. Their behaviour in battle is often very good, and even Roman writers compared them favourably with Roman troops. As spearmen they are best at defending against cavalry, as no horse willingly charges onto spear points. As a historical note, Scipio Africanus had the swords and shields of these Carthaginian infantrymen copied for use by the Roman legionaries after the Punic Wars. It's thanks to the prowess of these men that the later Legions were armed with what everyone now thinks of as typically 'Roman' gear. Copying your enemies' strengths is, perhaps, the highest praise that can be given by a warrior nation like the Romans.

http://www.totalwar.com/community/unit1.htm

PS: They fixed the Carthaginian Elephants entry - it now displays Dumbo just fine.

Barkhorn.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

How do you always manage to get the scoop on these? Have you got an unholy pact with Satan? Faust Faust

EDIT-Look at the size of those Elephants compared to the riders No way are they only 2 metres tall

[Barkhorn1x]

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ Nov. 07 2003,15:31)]Have you got an unholy pact with Satan? Faust Faust
I wish http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Actually I eat my lunch at about 12:10 EST every work day and I'll bet that the updates get posted at about that time.

Barkhorn.

[Leet Eriksson]

sounds like a historically correct unit,becuase i suppose the bulk of the carthaginian armies were from Iberia.

Any opinions on the unit?

[ShadesPanther]

In Time Commanders at the battle of Cannae they held the Roman legions for quite a while even when surrounded


http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/373214/carthage.jpg
Heres a piccie for you I found and I don't really have time to translate it plus i'm crap at Spanish.

[Quokka]

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ Nov. 08 2003,04:31)]Look at the size of those Elephants compared to the riders No way are they only 2 metres tall
The angle is deceptive, looking from the ground up at the approaching Elephant, but even considering the dimunative stature of the people of that time (ave Roman Legionaire was ~5ft), its stretching it to limit them to 2m tall, unless they chose small people like the Jockeys of today.

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ Nov. 07 2003,15:31)]How do you always manage to get the scoop on these? Have you got an unholy pact with Satan? Faust Faust

EDIT-Look at the size of those Elephants compared to the riders No way are they only 2 metres tall
It's because of the head.

To the shoulder they are 2m tall. But the head is 1 m tall, so that really makes them more impressive. Add to that an elephant's width and length, and it's a lot bigger than you may think. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Also, the elephant's back sort of 'rises over' the shoulder, which makes the top of the elephants back taller than at the shoulder. You can see that in the shot of the Carthaginian elephant in the review link that Quokka gave. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Rajput]

Is it just me, or was that pic in the unit description just cut out of this screenshot: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

If so, you can see that the camera angle is from the ground upward.

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/br9.jpg

[RisingSun]

That pic seems about right. Take those guys ofthe elephant, and they look like they'd be about half its height. Mindyou they also used a different, larger elephant back the, ddn't they?

[ShadesPanther]

If you look to the non armoured elephant to the right you can see the men and they look almost about the height of the shoulder.

[The Wizard]

There's a tower on its back... I thought the Carthaginian elephant, a small breed of elephant, was incapable of doing so... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Rajput]

Quote[/b] ]Mindyou they also used a different, larger elephant back the, ddn't they?

The later Seleukids and Greeks imported elephants and mahouts from India (which had already been using war elephants in battle for thousands of years).

The Indian elephants were much larger than the Sahara elephants shown in the picture, but smaller than the African elephants in central Africa, which I don't think were ever used in battle.

[PSYCHO]

Nice unit.

[Rajput]

Lol, almost forgot this thread was about the Carthaginian spearman, not the war elephant.

I agree, nice unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Spino]

Did Carthaginian phalangites or 'spearmen' really use a large scutum-like shield like the one depicted in the picture? I always thought phalangites used a less prominent shield that strapped to their left arm which allowed them to more effectively wield their long spear with two hands. Ultimately this made them more susceptible to missile fire but more effective in melee.

EDIT: While the unit picture is rather amibiguous I'm really basing my observations on the Carthaginian Spearmen seen in the episode of Time Commanders that featured the battle of Cannae (I dl'ed the video from www.legiontotalwar.com). It seems quite clear to me that the Carthaginian spearmen were wielding large scutum-like shields.

[The Wizard]

Those aren't Carthaginian Spearmen:

As seen in the description, CS are recruited from Hispania, from locals and Carthaginian colonists.

The pikemen shown in the battle of Cannae were Libyan Infantry, and if you look closely, you'll see that in the pic of the CS, the soldier seems to hold a smaller shield.

That's just a hypothesis, but I think it's pretty likely. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[ShadesPanther]

Yes they were called libyian infantry in TC and were not CS