The Italians

[Vigi]

Well I have decided that the next faction that I am going to play is the Italians(early, hard, GA) so I was wondering if anyone here had tips for this faction. I can see a few things that I should do and these are:

1) Seems like sea power is vital for the Italians so I will be sure to flood seas with ships http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

2)Unique units: Not sure when gothic knights are available but I tested them in a custom battle and they just completely destroy any non spear/pike unit in most cases. Can't wait to use em =). Aside from that the Italians have Italian Infantry, which seem very good from their stats. Very good defence, looks like they have decent morale(doesn't say poor so I guess that means average morale?)and they are an 100 man unit. I believe they should give me a nice advantage against other factions. So I guess these guys should form the backbone of my armies.



So basically I'm wondering, what do you guys build in what provinces as the Italians? What factions do you attack first? What do you gear your armies towards? Any tips for the Italians would be welcome as I haven't ever played them before.

[mystic brew]

Firstly, money shouldn't be a problem.

Venice is a cash cow. With a trading post and a few ships you should be able to build up good income.

the islands both have mines, and after you build them you can use them to get more of a navy going.

you can initially be profoundly peaceful. I didn't build a land unit for about 20 years...

The HRE are your key allies. NEVER attack them early.

the province just above Rome has steel and an UM bonus. I teched this up towards Italian infantry. These guys rule and with a steel upgrade they can chew through anything.

Get Genoa up towards Genoese archers.

Cavalry? your choice, really...

thats my 2cents

[mystic brew]

italian infantry have 2 morale, they are exactly the same stats as order footsoldiers.

I didn't find good generals easy to come by, so you might need church and monastery in the provinces you build your units in.

[The Wizard]

Italian infantry are close of being overpowered in unmodded SP... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Brutal DLX]

In a GA game with the Italians, you should have a pretty easy time. There are no real challengers close to you, the Italians can get an alliance with almost all factions. Possible hostiles could be Sicilians and the Papacy, but you should be able to handle them.
Just upgrade your provinces, expand your fleet so you firmly control the Italian pensinula at least and then expand your trade routes even further, if you like to.
You could play like that for a long time and never conquer more land if you stay neutral. The Italians hardly ever have a money problem, so they can afford a sizable army. Conquest isn't really needed to win, but you could capture a few strategic provinces to reduce your upkeep cost for shipping. Crete and Ireland and possibly Sweden come to mind here. Because of the huge income, you will be ahead in the tech race at all times, and you need it if you want to enjoy your Gothic Knights as soon as 1320 rolls around (They are only available in Late).
If you feel more like conquering, there are many sides to pick on, but choose with care, always considering that faction alliance status, or you might soon find yourself being at war with everybody, which will hurt your trade immensely. I suggest either getting hold of a few Spanish provinces or moving into the Balkans. German provinces are not really worth the trouble unless you want some more to secure your cash cows of Milan, Genoa and Venice.
To sum it up, if you play sensible, this will be a very easy campaign, even on hard.

[Magraev]

These guys are obviously all experts, so I don't know what to add. I'll give a few pointers anyway...

-Beware rebellions. Sons of the doge are notoriously disloyal so keep an eye on them. I've seen several rebellions with this faction - only outdone by the HRE.

-Get Naples fast - send troops across the sea at the earliest opportunity. This will hamstring the sicilians leaving them open for (not much) later conquest.

-Grab Provence at earliest opportunity (preferrably HRE civil war). Protects Genoa and cuts HRE off from the sea.

-Be ready to crusade Africa to cut off the spanish.

hope this helps.

addition: And keep an eye out for the pope - he WILL betray you - increasing chances of rebellion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif

[Bob the Insane]

Just had a promising game as per the orginal poster come to a crashing halt in 1208..

Had the all homelands excluding Crete (the Byz where at bit powerful and my primary trading partner at the time) and had had successful Crusades to Palistine and that one next to Odessa (memory = poor).

We had also taken advantage of the fall of the Egyptians and held Eygpt. We had a fleet of ships reaching around the known world, large armies of well equiped troops in our provinces and a large mercinary army of 4 full stacks of exotic troops and lots of siege engines and a few good (and loyal) generals. The mercinaries would deal with any offensive quickly and brutally. Dispite this large mercinary army we have over 100,000 in the bank and were still making a profit.

But in 1208 (or there abouts) the Doge died with his next heir only 13 years old... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif


Advice...

Trading parnters, to build up funds to need trading partners (obviously) and these need to be allies or neutrals. They also need a port in their province. The best bets early on is the Adriatic and eastern Mediteranian seas, which esentially equates to the Byz and the Egyptians. You need to be able to forsee a winner out of these 2 if the come to blows and back the right one, or at the very least don't get involved because the wrong choice can cut off your trade and get a lot of your ships sunk early in the game...


There is an interesting issue presented to you. While you play on allainces and neutrality to essentially keep the trade coming in, often one or 2 other factions will rise in power and you have to get involved and start fighting at some point before the agreesive faction runs out of easier prey anf finally comes for you. But you have to choose the right point because too early and you may not have enough money banked to see you through the lose of trade income that often occuring during war (not just the trade from the enemy, but think destroyed ports and sunk ships), and too late may mean that the enemy will simply outweigh to with income and troops numbers that you advantages as the human player are lost to a endless series of battles in which you find yourself hugely outnumbered.

Additional after reading the above again... The HRE, you share a huge border with them and they are very powerful early in the game, you it is worthwhile allying with them and maintaining that at the cost of other alliances. But at some point the HRE get the GA objective of capturing all of Italy, so they will betray you at some point. (they where the first victim of my mercinary horde.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[magnatz]

My two cents...

I generally expand in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, and play opportunistic with the French and HRE provinces (ie I only step in when they rebel). Also at some point in the game I have to crush the Pope, but I try to delay it as long as possible.

The bigger problem for me is to keep the commerce network working, which may be a pain when everybody is ganging against you. When the Sicilians or some other decide to attack your trade routes you want to have some badass fleets lying around, so you can wipe their navy off the seas first thing. But any major sea war will destroy your economy, so better not play the happy pirate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

At the beginning the generals are pretty lame, but later they get better (better build a lot, because their loyalty needs any possible help). Also the selection of units in Early is nothing to write home about - I try build Urban Militians in Tuscany, Genoan Sailors in Genoa, ships in Corsica, agents and knights in Venice, and general purpose units in Sardinia and Milan. Make sure you have a ship in every Italian sea, so you can ferry the armies all around. Serbia is a pretty good base for east-bound crusades.

Be warned that most crusades will embark from Venice or Genoa, after having crossed at least three italian provinces. On the other hand you don't have to wrestle with the Mongols, unless you really want to. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Vigi]

Thanks for all the tips everyone =). Things are going quite well right now. I believe the year is around 1130 or so and I have currently:

Venice:Upgraded farms a bit, have it at a castle and am currently upgrading towards feudal knights there since I have ships in virtually every sea zone.
Milan:Building swordsmen here, going to perhaps tech it towards spears soon too although I'm not sure.
Tuscany:Geared this towards Italian Infantry and I'm now producing them there. Once my armor and metalsmiths are built these guys should be fearsome in battle =)
Genoa: Took your guys advice and geared this towards genose archers. I haven't fought any battles with them yet but I'm sure I will enjoy them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.
Sardinia: Geared this towards ships and now I'm gearing it towards agents. Obviously the mines have been built there as well.
Corsica: Got the mines there and then geared it towards ships. I am at the point now where I don't really need to produce any more ships as I have a ship in pretty much every sea zone and I am reeling in the florins. Venice alone makes about 4000-5000 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif.


I managed to nab:
Serbia: I got the gold mines up there and I'm gearing it towards agents pretty much
Sweden: Just got this recently since the Danes never bothered to touch it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. I can't wait to get a trading post and port up here because it's going to be a huge producer of cash.


Other than that I have stayed pretty peaceful with everyone, I tried(unsuccessfully) to launch a crusade to Antioch, but it was beaten by the Egyptians. I plan to try again in the future.

Problems I have had: Heirs. The Italians get crappy heirs it seems, or perhaps I am simply unlucky as hell. I managed to kill off a few bad ones and now I have King Jacopo the I, 3 stars 3 acumen, but theres a problem: All of his children are princesses so far :/. He's quite young, 21 I believe and so he has plenty of time to put out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, but so far he has only managed to produce daughters. The Sicilians and the Papacy have not, as of yet bothered me at all. The HRE and the French have been warring for a long time now, so my borders are fairly secure as they seem to be busy with each other. I have 3 large defending armies full of nice teched up troops in Milan, Venice, and Genoa and I have a large army that just conquered Sweden and it's the most teched up I have yet. Has Italian Infantry, FMAA, Genoese Archers, Mounted Xbowmen and, hopefully, will soon have a strong Feudal Knight force to back it up.


I have overall enjoyed this campaign a lot so far. I haven't had to engage in huge wars and have pretty much been making Italy the wonder of the world with technology and wealth. I'm sure that this will eventually make me a target, but I will be well prepared I should think to deal with it come that time.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Destroy the Sicilians in order to assert your naval superiority. Also important to box the Pope in and keep an eye on him because if you let your garrisons get low, he will attack you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Bevan of Hertfordshire]

Take down the Byzantines and carve out a medittaranean empire with crusades.

[The Wizard]

The Pope on the battlefield is just too damn funny to comprehend http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Magraev]

Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Nov. 13 2003,13:03)]The Pope on the battlefield is just too damn funny to comprehend http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Historical fact - wasn't funny for his enemies at the time I'm sure.

The best approach to the pope-problem is to beat him back to the papal states, make him retreat to the castle, siege him to just before the castle falls and then retreat. The pope will be neutral, his troops will be in very poor shape and he probably wont have the cash to build any ever again.

After that the pope becomes gentle as a lamb...

[HopAlongBunny]

btw, you never have enough ships http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I find expanding out of Italy hard. Too many borders. I usually hold firm to what I have there (esp. Venice&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Spain is almost always my base for expansion. Its just too rich and too secure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The only thing to watch for is alliances. A poorly chosen war can sink your trade.

[lancer63]

The italians are a great faction, which isn't, but I hardly ever think of them. In two different campaings I had the same situation, I´m minding me own business, making business with everyone when BAM a french crusade lands in Milan. I'm a good, obedient catholic so I let me brothers go on their way and even give'em a few soldiersto help. But no. Them frogs take more than offered. They leave Milan so weak even a toddler can coquer it. After the crusade leaves for Genoa or Venice to levy more of my men, the french regular army attacks me
Gimme a break I help them french and for thanks I get a 2 stack invasion against a half strenght stack.
If I refuse right of way the pope xcomms me and everybody loves Raymond's ass then. My lands become crusade central and end up fishing in Corsica.
No more. I'll take theHungarians over the I Italians every day of the week and twice on Sundays. At least there I get I fighting chance against the crusades.

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Magraev @ Nov. 14 2003,08:27)]Historical fact - wasn't funny for his enemies at the time I'm sure.
Did those lazy-ass high priests actually fight, or did they sit in one of those battlefield wagons and preach?

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (Wizzy @ Nov. 15 2003,17:59)]Did those lazy-ass high priests actually fight, or did they sit in one of those battlefield wagons and preach?
Depends on who was pope at that time. Sometimes Italian or German nobles became pope, and they had battlefield experience. However, I don't think it's likely that the pope ever led a charge. Could look bad if it goes wrong, you know, infallable as he claims to be.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Oh and Lancer, if you are losing too many men to crusades and get attacked then, keep some reserve stacks on the isles and always shift your continental stacks out of the way if you know a crusade is bound to enter one of your provinces. Even if an enemy attacks your province on the next turn, you will still have an army to take it back. Also they might get excommunicated if they continue to fight you and then you can invade yourself. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Magraev]

Some popes were known to be excellent fighters. I can't remember specifics atm sorry.

I agree, that it would have been unwise to risk the pope at the head of a charge.