a what if scenario

[MizuKokami]

i don't know exactly how morale works, but i know it works on a points system. this point system has low numbers to represent changes in morale. so, as a consequence, loseing 1 point of morale is very devistating. low numbers mean you are loseing morale at 10% increments at a time.
what if we changed the morale system to a high number system? something like...100 points. levels of morale would be,...
0 points morale...routing
1-25....close to rout
26-49....wavering
50-75....steady
76-100...impetious
unit morale points would click down and up one point at a time. some things would lower morale...ie, enemy cav moves to your flank. some things would cause morale to raise. you move a unit of spears into position to threaten that enemy cav., and, in the process, are moveing to protect your flank from that cav unit that threatened you. with morale points clicking up or down at a point at a time, it would be more of a time game, then merely a stasis of morale. before your units lose a level of morale, you are given time to raise their morale. we could increase balance of game with this by makeing units that are classified as low morale units, lose morale at a quicker rate. sure, you could still beef up peasant units, but their quicker morale drop would be the balanceing factor.
a small explanation on close to rout....your men have gone beyond wavering. as a consequence, fear feeds upon fear. morale begins to drop quicker in this range then while just in wavering range.

[Dionysus9]

Well your idea sounds pretty much like how it already works. You are suggesting a 100 point scale instead of a 20 points scale. So instead of asking for +2 morale, people would ask for +10.

It seems like you are ultimately asking for smaller morale increments and slightly longer intervals before morale is re-calculated. It might be interesting, but who knows what it might screw up?

[Puzz3D]

If the steps are too small, units will never rout. Also, increasing the complexity of the morale system won't necessarily make it work better. If you can't balance a simple system, you won't balance a complex one.

The present morale system seems to work reasonably well. In vi you have mostly a game of position at 5k, a balance between position and attrition at around 8.5k (+2 morale) and mostly a game of attrition at 15k (+4 morale). Although some of the morale penalties in mtw/vi are different from stw/mi, it's interesting that mtw v1.0 at 10k (v2 = +4 morale), mtw v1.1 at 15k (v2 = +4 morale) and vi at 8.5k (v1 with the +2 of vi = +4 morale) are all the same morale level as stw at 5k where the units were purchased at honor 2 (h2 = +4 morale). Due to the ability to field 16 monks at 5k in stw by selling back honor, it seemed to me that purchasing units at v0 in mtw would be an improvement. However, this upset the morale system because +4 morale points were not put on the units and playing at higher florins was required to get the points back. So, nothing was really gained by purchasing units at v0, and the game was apparently balanced at this lower morale level.

[CBR]

Most of the current morale modifiers are already bigger than 1 so I dont see the need for a more detailed 1-100 scale.

Here is the list. Might be more but thats what I got in some obscure txt file http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


***MORALE***

States

Impetuous: 10+
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less then -6

Negative

Loose Formation: -2
Outnumbered 2 to 1: -4 (see below)
Outnumbered 3 to 1: -12 (depends on quality of troop, elite only afraid of elite, etc.)
One flank threatened: -2
Two flanks threatened: -6
Charged in flank: -4
Charged in flank by cavalry: -6
Charged by unit hidden in forest: -8
General's death (during the first few seconds): -8
After the General's death: -2 (for the rest of the battle)
Routing Friends: Up to -12
10% of unit is dead: -2
50% of unit is dead: -8
80% of unit is dead: -12
Taking missle fire: -2 (-4 if weapons cause fear)
Unit is Very Tired: -3
Unit is Exhausted: -6
Unit is completely exhausted: -8
Losing: Up to -8 (up to -14 if losing to cavalry)

Positive

Protected Flanks: +4
No retreat possible (usually castle sieges): +8
No enemies around: +4
Enemies Routing: Up to +8
Uphill Position: +2
Winning: Up to +6
Impetuous Charge: +4 (when Knights charge automatically)
Outnumber Enemy 3 to 1: +4
General in unit: +2
Close proximity to general: +1 morale per star
Far away from general: +1 morale per 2 stars


CBR

[MizuKokami]

one question, at the instant that a unit hits rout level, does it turn and run, or is there a delay for a moment before the unit realizes it's in a routable situation?
oh...and bachus. with a situation where morale ticks away slow enough so you are given the time to increase the morale by your own actions, a morale beef up wouldn't be neccisary. and if nothing else, a system like this could save you from a chain rout. which, as we all know, isn't such an easy thing to do. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif why is this you might ask? because now your allies can move into position to protect your routing troops, instead of being forced to stay away.

[CBR]

There is no delay. You get a warning when units are wavering, of course the morale impact can be so big a unit routs without the waver warning.

CBR

[MizuKokami]

cbr..so this would make a gradual shift in morale more advantageous. my general dies alot...sigh. in many cases, he dies just before i manage to turn the tide of battle. if the 8 point morale hit clicked off a point at a time, i may very well still end up victorious. as for my whole army suddenly knowing my general is dead, well no wonder he died. my men were so busy watching me that they forgot to fight the enemy. a gradual shift in the morale would simulate the news spreading of my generals demise, instead of an instant telekinetic connection. i realize there are times when humans have fear rush upon them suddenly. but this effect should be only for the units that were close enough to my general to see him die, not for the men fighting a tile away.
maybe the idea of having a morale scale of 100 is too high? however, i think it would increase tactics in battle if the morale was more of a morale shift, as opposed to a morale hit. and with it, also the 'need' to increase morale straight across the board, as was done with the patch, would not exsist.

[Puzz3D]

A delay on morale hit would be nice. It would give an observable cascade effect rippling through the army. That suggestion was actually made over 2.5 years ago during the time of original STW.

[MizuKokami]

heh...looks like i'm a little behind the times http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
and i thought i was being so inovative.

[Dionysus9]

Koka,

You've made a good case for a "time-delayed" morale effect, and I'd sign onto it-- esp. for death of general.

CBR,

The Morale stats you offer say:
States

Impetuous: 10+
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less then -6

Is that right for the Wavering state? Or should routing be "less that -14"?

[CBR]

Well actually with VI and the +2 morale (which was done by lowering the rout level) the states are not correct..have to lower all numbers by 2 I guess.

I took the numbers from the thread about morale in Table of Contents.

But AFAIK a unit the routs does not go back to a higher state just because a few of the modifiers that caused it to rout are not there anymore..it takes a bit more to recover from rout.

So yes a unit does rout when its beyond the -14 (or -16 in VI?) but it does not recover before its up to -6 or better.


CBR

[ElmarkOFear]

I think it would be great to have a little number indicator on each unit's icon at the bottom of the screen, (similar to the number for men still alive in a unit), which would show the current number of the morale state. That way you could spot weak areas right away and if the delay was put in, you would have time to shore up that area or move as many troops away as possible before the unit routed. Either that or have the icon blink, change color, etc. . when the unit begins wavering.

[Swoosh So]

Im not too keen on that, id rather it was hidden wavering sign is enough for me, I dont want too many stats flying around, Why so worried about morale anyway guys most people play 15k sadly enough so fight to the 9th man most units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif As to the arguement about mass routs at lower florin i have to laugh as what do you think happened in wars, its because of mistakes mass routes happen, i have no problem keeping my army steady.


Swoooooooooooooooooooooooosh

[Swoosh So]

Anyway im sick of fighting uber h4 and h3 units some with upgrades its like the first mi all over again, playing 15k the other day i watched and laughed as v4 w3 pavs routed 2 armies and beat a jhi in hth combat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif lol 15k

[Brutal DLX]

That's called an exploit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Puzz3D]

Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Nov. 11 2003,18:42)]The Morale stats you offer say:
States

Impetuous: 10+
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less then -6

Is that right for the Wavering state? Or should routing be "less that -14"?
The impetuous state measures as morale 10 or above for both vi and mtw, so it looks like the +2 morale of vi is actually a lowering of the rout point from -16 to -18. The overlapping ranges indicate a hysteresis in the morale system, and this is very pronounced between the wavering and routing states. So, a unit will rout if its morale drops to -18, but it won't rally until its morale comes back up to -6.


Swoosh,

I agree with you about the 15k. I think the discussion in this thread is with regard to playing the game at a morale level where morale has a greater effect on the gameplay. With the removal of the devastating swipe and the +2 morale of vi, units in the 4 to 8 morale range function quite well with morale 8 being the absolute maximum that any player would ever need on a unit in my opinion.

[MizuKokami]

swoosh.... it also isn't about increaseing morale at all. it's about changeing the way morale is applied. the -8 morale penalty for a lost general would still be minus eight. just it would click off slower instead of all at once, giveing you an opportunity to pull back, or even to complete what you had begun with the attack. as yuuki put it....a cascade effect. couldn't you see how this might make it possible to perform more tactical maneuvers, like routing your own center to draw the enemy into a flanked position as he pursues your routers. try this as it is, and the rest of your line would likely rout. especially where artillary and arrow fire is concerned. you would get a minus for your men routing, a minus for your now exposed flanks in the center, a minus for being fired on, a minus for being outnumbered, applied all at once. routing a center is risky business, but is a very legitimate tactic. and men fighting next to the routers would of course be concerned, just not all at once. many of the men would be too busy fighting to see that his comrades were routing.

[Dionysus9]

Yuuki & CBR,

I understand there is a higher morale requirement to RETURN from routing to wavering. I'm still not understanding all the transitions.

If impetuous is +10, how can steady be 2 to 14?

Impetuous: 10+
Steady: 2 to 14 ?
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less then -6

Can we say:
Impetuous: 10+
Steady: 2 to 10
Uncertain: -5 to 2
Wavering: -5 to -17
Rout point: -18
Return to wavering: -6

????

[longjohn2]

Gnerally a unit has to be wavering for about 5 seconds before it is allowed to rout. Exceptions are made for certain major trauma events such as taking a sudden flurry of casualties or being charged by cavalry.

[Puzz3D]

Dion,

The lower number in each range is the transision point for morale on the way down and the higher number is for morale on the way up. For instance, a unit will go from steady to impetuous when morale goes above 14, but that impetuous unit won't drop to steady until its morale drops below 10.

It appears that during deploy the number representing falling morale is used to set the initial morale state of the unit. For instance, a v0 feudal knight general has morale 10, and that unit starts a battle as impetuous. I haven't tried to verify all those transition points by testing because the test is very time consuming to conduct.


LongJohn,

That's interesting about the 5 sec delay. Maybe that delay suggestion did make it into mtw because I don't think it was in stw. I haven't looked for it myself, but I have heard players say that their units routed one after another which could be a result of that delay.

[LadyAnn]

Some units are not possible to be impetuous, that also explains why the range of steady is 2 to 14. Could you have anything higher than 14? I doubt it.

Annie