battle of Lucretra

[mystic brew]

A good episode for once...

It was an all-woman team

I am sure there will be a number of people who will criticise the team, because they are newbies and make newbie mistakes. But they had a plan and stuck to it. one general made that plan, but the team listened to each other, then let the other general make the decisions...

Envelopment though not perfect, was soundly done.

I thought they did well, and showed a good appreciation of teamwork and basic tactics...

not straightforward, but well done.

[rasoforos]

i think they were possibly the most useless team in the series. My arguments :

1) they couldnt spell hoplite
2) quote from the game ' use those guys with the spears and the other light blue guys' ( translation in human : use the hoplites and the scirmishers&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
3) they left the sacred band alone in the back of their troop and used it only in the end. of course this would normally mean defeat but :
4) the AI was suicidical and i am sure it was not Artificial nor Intelligent , the reasons ? a) when that stupid team sent half of their army to fight off the spartal cavalry , for some obscure reason the AI did not attack their weakend main force ( and dont forget that the sacred band was not even there) , unless the AI got downgraded from medieval to a Dune II level this wouldnt have happened) b) the spartans use the 'famous tactic' of 'lets bring our elite troops infront alone and isolated so the Thebans can attack them from all 4 sides , then lets wait those idiots to realised that they actually flanked our elite troop ( it tookabout 3 minutes to turn their soliers around...they were just sitting in their flancs) , and of course lets not help them , wait for our eltie troops to be destroyed and then send two more. The people of the series tried REALLY HARD to make this team win the battle of Leuctra , they tried REALLY hard to make the AI lose. It was boring , it was frustrating ( especially the lack of historical knowledge whatsoever) and the thebans were too powerfull ( example : spartan cavalry charges ournumbered theban skirmishers and fails to destroy them).
I think the series went the wrong way , for the first time i wished it would end fast....disapointment

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

[hellenes]

Rasofore as im suspecting the dirty hand of the human interference in the Spartan control... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif The Spartans HAD to LOSE so they made them to lose especially after the whole bunch of critisizing on the teams' quality that pass through TC so eitheir the opponent was a human OR it was below easy level...the choice is yours...

Hellenes

[Mount Suribachi]

Gotta agree with Raso - yet another team that had little clue. The Spartans kept more than half their army in reserve and when all the Spartan Elite Hoplites had (finally, for it took them an age to realise the oppurtunity and exploit it) been surrounded and killed, the rest of the Spartan army just went home.

Raso is right, other than getting to see the RTW engine, the show sucks. The only decent episodes have been the ones where the team has half a clue (thats 2 out of 8 then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif ). If they are gunna continue to employ teams of people with no historical or gaming knowledge, the show is as much good as a chocolate fireplace. After 5 minutes Mrs Suribachi says to me "this is going to annoy you".

[frogbeastegg]

I won't comment on the team, it was nice to see them win but the battle seemed rather disjointed so the last part went by quite quickly. Some of their units were almost totally destroyed but you didn't find out if they routed, survived or died to the last man and that makes it harder to judge their performance. The Spartans did seem to suddenly lose their brains but I won't bother going into that yet again. I shall even let the 'armed with sharp spikes' comment pass.

Did anyone else think the Spartans looked as though they were wearing a long dress? I know they wore a red cloak but this looked more like a dress, probably because some historians believe the Spartans fought in the nude at this time I think the dress effect is much more preferable to nude men charging around and flapping in the breeze http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

On the whole the units looked good, the phalanx effect as they lower their spears and dress their lines is a beautiful thing. The detail on the units equipment is nice. The map they were fighting on looked like a more interesting ironing board so I hope they include it in RTW. I think any ancient Greek based mods/expansions will have a lot of potential with this engine.

Lovely demonstration of the real life tactics by the historians - kicking the blocks accross the field is certainly different

[rasoforos]

hellenes imagine a spartan line and 100 meters in front of them the elite spartan hoplites completely cut off and waiting to be chopped to pieces , now consider the team attacking them , some of their units missing to engage and thus flanking the enemy ( and the team not realising for some time) , then imagine the elite spartans fighting helplesly against enemies from all sides with the main bulk of the ( superior in numbers) spartan army not helping at all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ... if that wasnt human intervention then i dont knowwat it is

and by the way they repelled the first flanking wave http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


...and i allready mentioned they used the ierolohites as reserves ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[mystic brew]

eh?

i don't know what criteria you are using to judge the team's use, but this lot were a damnsight better than most.

the things raso said...

yes, agreed, keeping the elite out was a worry. newbie mistake, but the team used them enough for them to make a difference.

Can't spell?????

but calling the units by their right names? not important.

lack of historical knowledge? not important

yes, they made mistakes, but to call them the worst?

You're off your elephant, mate... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[rasoforos]

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Nov. 10 2003,14:36)], probably because some historians believe the Spartans fought in the nude at this time I think the dress effect is much more preferable to nude men charging around and flapping in the breeze http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
fighting in the nude is a mater or size , nothing worse for the morale of your enemy to see that he s got a spear while you got a sarissa http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[rasoforos]

dark drew just think if
a) the AI should really react like that
b) skirmishers can withstand a cavalry charge
c) ieros lohos in reserves?

i am just saying that the production did eerything they could to make this team win , therewere far better and more able teams that lost battles ,these guys wouldnt normally stand a chance.

...and well ... all those people with no idea about fighting really get on my nerves http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[hellenes]

Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Nov. 10 2003,20:46)]
Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ Nov. 10 2003,14:36)], probably because some historians believe the Spartans fought in the nude at this time I think the dress effect is much more preferable to nude men charging around and flapping in the breeze http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
fighting in the nude is a mater or size , nothing worse for the morale of your enemy to see that he s got a spear while you got a sarissa http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Rasofore are you advertising the decendants of the ancient greeks (US http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) to tha ladies at the forum???????????? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]Did anyone else think the Spartans looked as though they were wearing a long dress? I know they wore a red cloak but this looked more like a dress, probably because some historians believe the Spartans fought in the nude at this time I think the dress effect is much more preferable to nude men charging around and flapping in the breeze

Sounds like the Spartans are still depicted as wearing their red cloaks hanging freely from their shoulders as per the original unit screenshot posted here:

http://www.totalwar.com/community/unit2.htm

The Spartan hoplite was discussed quite a bit when the unit was first posted at the official site but it was generally agreed upon that the Spartans did NOT fight with their cloak flowing about in this manner; it offers too many advantages to the enemy in close quarters combat. I hope CA's art department fixes the 'cloak issue' before the game is released because it looks ridiculous.

[The Wizard]

They have an open helmet

An OPEN helmet for Zeus' sake GOD http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[frogbeastegg]

Yes, that's the 'dress'. In the stationary shots it doesn't look like a dress but once they start moving the cloak acts just like a dress. Of course there is no realistic was to animate a cloak in a game, or at least not one I have seen. For that matter they never manage to get skirts or actual dresses right, I would say that it is to intensive to get the material to flow correctly unless you have the budget and processing power of a CGI movie.

Just imagine the devistating effects of fighting in the snow, the nude hoplits would not be very happy and their morale would shrink away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif Frozen feet can have such a terrible effect http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]They have an open helmet

An OPEN helmet for Zeus' sake GOD

The Spartan hoplites had open helmets?? They don't have any such thing in the original unit pic Are you sure they weren't Sparta's allies or other light troops?

[econ21]

Another fun episode, again in an exasperating sort of way.

At the critical point - when the generals were refusing the request of the blonde lieutenant to commit the elite reserve - I was screaming at the TV:
"Shoot your generals Shoot them Shoot them now"

On reflection I do agree with rasoforos; the Spartans acted braindead. It was kind of like those old school computer wargames (Talonsoft's battleground series) where the AI was pretty much static. By the way, I don't think the Spartans merely repelled the first wave - I think they pretty much killed it to a man.

I don't know why, but the visuals of RTW impressed me the most with this episode more than any other. Maybe the engine represents pikemen more plausibly than swordsmen (they can get away with moving less and still look realistic).

[ShadesPanther]

They were probably the worst team yet and somehow they won. I dunno how that happened I mean I thought the women would hear the historians screams at their big mistakes.

The main problem was that the women ditherthed about when they needed to be decisive
egthe Sacred Band decision

They got attacked by a unit of allies on the right and just charged in at the elite spartans. EH?

EDIT yes the first wave did get minced I think I saw only about 4 men run away out of 3 units

[The_Emperor]

You know I really enjoyed the battle, but I have to admit the victory was VERY annoying, (and the generals even more so for not commiting the Elite troops)

Watching the Elite Spartans march ahead and get surrounded. I was gobsmacked to see the "Spartan Allies" standing off and watching the outcome I mean the team's entire army was surrounding the Spartans and cutting them to bits, and the Allies were still not sent in. Even though the Allies were in a good position to surround a good portion of the team's army

Then the Spartans were killed those allies just turned and marched off. I thought it was a nice touch in the game, but I was really annoyed that they didn't hardly get in on much of the fighting.

When I saw that Spartan deployment, I expected them to march forward with all the infantry and engage mosts of them at once in a big meat-grinder battle. Too bad that didn't happen and the Spartans flittered away their forces in dribs and drabs.

This battle did seem rigged for the team to win.

I thought the last one seemed to be rigged for that team to lose. (enemy reinforcements comming up from behind did seem a bit harsh, especially when the historians later said they came from the other direction)

Compared to the MTW AI which is constantly redeploying its forces, tonight's episode was a major dissapointment and if this is the RTW AI I am so far not very impressed.

[Stormer]

Quote[/b] ]Compared to the MTW AI which is constantly redeploying its forces

hate too bust ur bubble but they aint playing gainst the AI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif there palying against the gezzer behind the war table u see him osmetimes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif the ai dont withdraw or do good tactics

the enemy was palying htre battle historicla hence deploying on the right and withdwaing.

[Spino]

Manipulating the AI to increase the contestants' likelihood of winning? Geez, sounds like the producers of TC are hell bent on pushing this show into the grave. Rather than appeal to a specific target audience that would actually enjoy watching this type of program (in the States that would be any given viewer of the History or Discovery channels) the producers seem to be under the impression that a broader audience would actually enjoy watching great moments in military history, let alone great moments in military history as re-enacted by a bunch of rank incompetents. I can only imagine how much better the show would do if the producers bothered to enlist people who are actually familiar with military history or who work in fields where the required skill set would positively affect their simulated battlefield performance.

I doubt the average viewer is keen on the obvious manipulation of the enemy troops by the show's producers but I am absolutely sure that week after week of incompetency followed by the complete removal of the historical background segments is sure to alienate most of the history buffs who are tuning in.

I don't mean to sound like a pessimist but on the surface the prognosis doesn't look good for TC. I can only assume the shows ratings are slipping otherwise why else would they scale back the time from a full hour to a one half hour (or is it 40 minute) format? If someone can prove me wrong by giving us some insight as to TC's ratings I'd appreciate it.

[Kraxis]

Interestingly all episodes were taped before the show aired for the first time.
They must have known people would turn away from seeing total dimwits get trounced. Too bad they couldn't correct this problem by selecting new people for every episode. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

So far I have only heard praise for the players at Trebbia... The first damn show No wonder it came up first. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Hakonarson]

The battle of WHAT?? lol

Leuctra I think is the one you want

Spartan Hoplites usualy wore open faced helments - the closed faced style was not all that popular although it looks spectacular.

Througout history soldiers have often prefered to be able to see ratehr than have complete armour - there's a reference somewhere to teh King of France having to order his knights to wear their face armour as too many of them were geting arrows in their faces

[The Wizard]

But... the helmet didn't even have the beautiful crest http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Nov. 10 2003,19:25)]The battle of WHAT?? lol

Leuctra I think is the one you want
Me?

Well, I can't watch BBC2, and I can only remember people being more positive about Trebbia, none of the others. And even then they complained, but more out of their own abilities, than how the players seemed to have done it at Trebbia.

And what I hear about Leuctra I don't think the players are worth much.

[Leet Eriksson]

have'nt seen a single episode of TC,i missed 2 when i was in britain,and now i'm in this damn desert again,there is no BBC,just crappy music channels...

now from what i hear,the team won becuase of the sucky AI,the Development team claim the AI is pretty clever,contradiction?probably not,becuase i suspect the other side was played by a human and had the female team win,becuase if they did'nt,well it could spell trouble...

[Captain Fishpants]

The shows were taped in two batches a few weeks apart, and in each case the taping sessions lasted a full week, although individual shows took less time.

The taping has to be completed early so that Lion TV have chance to do all the editing and post-production that is required to turn footage into television. There also needed to be a gap between recording sessions to allow feedback into the process, new models to be created and so forth...

A side benefit is that the TW-engine code being used for TC was updated before the second recording session took place. I think, if you compare early and later shows, you'll notice the improvements. It's a real tribute to the CA programmers that the code could take everything that was being thrown at it at this stage of development, look that good and not crash once during production

Yeah, it's frustrating for everyone that you can't play it at home yet, but development continues apace. We learned a lot from doing TC, and that's being fed back into the game engine.

[econ21]

Quote[/b] ]"Yeah, it's frustrating for everyone that you can't play it at home yet, but development continues apace. We learned a lot from doing TC, and that's being fed back into the game engine."

Good to know, Captain Fishpants. I confess I am already sold on RTW based on TC - the battles clearly retain all the STW/MTW goodness but on rather bigger scale and with gorgeous graphics. I hope you manage to feed in some input, however informal, from the historians as some of them (Nusbacher especially) seem to really know their stuff.

[Frankymole]

Will concerns about historical accuracy in the costumes/tactics/fighting style be addressed? This, from RomanArmy.com, http://pub45.ezboard.com/fromana....top=24, (http://pub45.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm10.showMessageRange?topicID=289.topic&start=21&stop=24,) raises some concerns which hopefully will be ironed out after the TV shows:
"Of course, we all notice that the Romans have square scuta, which is not according to reality - in fact there's much more not according to historical details.
The worst of these is how the troops fight, especially the Romans. Never do the Romans fire volleys of pila, they always seem to need attached groups of archers or slingers. The Celts do throw spears. Why not the Romans?
Nor do we see the cohorts lock shields and present a front, it is always man against man. This is due, however, to the basics of the game, which go back to bardgames, where units or individuals fight as individuals, with the dice as deciding factor.

This does not make Time Commanders interesting for historians, whatever the strategic or tactical capabilities of the teams who play the game. It's just another fantasy game."

Is this correct?

[Kraxis]

Ok, I haven't even seen the show and I can tell you the legionaries does throw their pila. In fact it has been mentioned so many times I didn't think it was still being questioned. They even throw them when engaged in melee it seems (but here other people will have to jump in).

The Romans not presenting one front?
Well, in several of the movies I have downloaded the troops brace themselves for impact.

And the shields are certainly oval That is obvious from the Cannae battle and the Trebbia.