Warrior Monks

[DemonArchangel]

What are the Warrior Monks in STW armed with?
Naginatas?
Yaris?
Something Else?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Naginata

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Like so:

http://galeon.hispavista.com/shizenryu/samura11.jpg

Compared with the Naginata infantry:

http://www.galeon.com/shizenryu/samura14.jpg

[Jochi Khan]

Shinano

A good graphic discription.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

.....Jochi

[Wild Bill Kelso]

The Naginata is still popular today in Japan.. but mostly as a womans sport. Actually my wifes great grandmother (she was bushi class) had to take one with her when she was married into another house.
http://kendovictoria.asn.au/kenshikan/pics/nagpic2.jpg

[Orda Khan]

Great picture Wild Bill http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I've watched the ladies demonstrate this martial art....and very able they were too

....Orda

[Jacque Schtrapp]

A Brief History of the Naginata

The Naginata is a weapon with a rich history, utilized and refined from the Nara Period (710-784 A.D.) to today. Employed initially by the Bushi, it later found itself the specific weapon of the Sohei or Buddhist monks. It is the school of the spear and, as such, is a shafted weapon. The length of its oval shaft varied, from 5' to 8', depending on battle conditions and personal requests. The most striking feature, however, was the blade; it could be anywhere from 10 inches to more than 2 feet, and was sharpened on a single side, fashioned in the manner of either Sakizori or Uchizori. As with most shafted weapons, it was most devastating when utilizing sweeping, circular motions. However, thrusts with the blade and also the heavy ishizuki on the butt end were acceptable tactical alternatives.

http://www.scnf.org/sohei.jpg

[Jacque Schtrapp]

More history:

The naginata is a halberd-like weapon that was used extensively in feudal Japan. Described by some as simply "a sword on the end of a long pole", the naginata was actually a sophisticated weapon which required considerable skill and stamina to use effectively in battle. It consisted of a curved blade, 1 to 2 feet in length, mounted onto an oak shaft that was usually 5 to 9 feet long. The actual dimensions of a naginata were primarily dependent on personal preferences and battle conditions. Attached to the butt end of the shaft was a sharp end-cap, or ishizuki, which was used to pierce between the plates of an attacker's armor.

Although the exact origin of the naginata is not known, three theories are prominent today. The first states that the naginata evolved from a simple farming tool used for chopping. In the early part of the third century BC, farmers attached sharp stones to the end of long wooden shafts. Later, metal was used in place of the stones.

The second theory is that the naginata evolved directly as a weapon. The first prototype blades were most likely made of bronze, followed later by steel. This theory sets the development of the naginata well after the introduction of metal to Japan from the Asian continents (after 200 BC).

The third theory is that Chinese halberds were carried to Japan during early migrations, sometime around 200 BC. By the Han and Wei Dynasties (approximately 200 AD) these weapons closely resembled the type of naginata eventually used by Japanese warriors. Some historians believe that, although the Chinese may have invented the weapon, it was later developed, utilized, and refined by the Japanese.



Despite the uncertainty surrounding its origin, it is a well-known fact that the naginata was being fully utilized in battle by the 10th century. Cavalry battles had become more important by this time, and it was difficult to repel mounted warriors simply by means of the bow, arrow, and sword. The naginata proved to be a superb weapon for close-up fighting; it's sweeping arcs of destruction were used to cut a horse's legs and kill its rider once the horse fell to the ground. During the Gempei War (1180), in which the Taira clan was pitted against the Minamoto, the naginata rose to a position of particularly high esteem. Because of its extensive use at that time, changes were made in the type of armor worn by warriors. The addition of "sune-ate", or shin guards, came into use directly because of injuries inflicted by naginata-bearing warriors. The naginata was also used extensively by women warriors. It is a common misconception that women of that era were submissive and subdued. In reality, they were highly trained warriors who were well versed in the use of the naginata as well as many hand to hand fighting techniques. One of the most famous women warriors was Itagaki. Famous for her naginata skills, Itagaki was in charge of a garrison of 3,000 warriors at the Torizakayama castle. The Hojo shogunate dispatched over 10,000 warriors to crush them. Itagaki led her troops out of the castle directly into the Hojo warriors, killing a significant number of them before finally being overpowered. Off of the battlefield, the naginata was also used by women as a means of protecting themselves and their children while the men were away in battle or working in the fields. Because of the size and reach of the weapon, a woman could keep an attacker at a safe distance.



The introduction of firearms into Japan in the mid-17th century significantly altered battlefield strategies, and the naginata gradually became a weapon used solely by women for protection in their homes. Naginata training was also used as a means of exercise and character development. During the Edo period, a time of relative peace in feudal Japan, all Japanese women were required to master the naginata by age 18. By this time, naginata were usually ornately decorated, and were considered an essential part of a woman's dowry.



Today, the martial art of Naginata is still practiced extensively in Japan and elsewhere. Many different "styles" or schools (ryu) of Naginata are in existence, with Atarashii Naginata and Jikishin-kage ryu being the most popular. Other popular styles are Tendo ryu and Toda Ha Buko ryu. Regardless of the style, all naginata training has at its core the goal of developing respect for traditional etiquette and spiritual training.

http://www.iaido-aachen.de/Bilder/Naginata.gif

[Jacque Schtrapp]

http://www.home.zonnet.nl/paul_spr/images/seminar2.jpg

http://www.home.zonnet.nl/paul_spr/images/3samurai.jpg

http://www.home.zonnet.nl/paul_spr/images/photo6.jpg

http://www.ameurasiart.com/_derived/Naginata.htm_txt_8ajpg.gif

[DemonArchangel]

Nice Jacque Schtrapp

Oh btw, the Chinese halbred resembles a machete on a stick, it was used by cavalrymen, who would use it as a lance. The chinese machete on a stick halbred was also used by infantry as a hacking weapon. A downward slash could be devastating, cleaving through armor, flesh and bone.

[hoom]

Chinese thing = the weapon used by Korean guardsmen in MI?

I always thought the Sohei were using Nagamaki.
Nagamaki being a similar weapon but with shorter handle (bound like a sword) & longer, thinner blade (more like a sword).

Or maybe that was the Naginata Cavalry?
I'm sure that one of the units was supposed to be using Nagamaki.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]I always thought the Sohei were using Nagamaki.
Nagamaki being a similar weapon but with shorter handle (bound like a sword) & longer, thinner blade (more like a sword).
Yes, the nagamaki corresponds to your description. And i believe that many people mix them up. But there are different opinions about them:

Naginata/Nagamaki (http://www.scnf.org/qa.html)

Kenjutsu and Jojutsu (http://www.kazearashiryu.org/armed.html)

Japanese Terminology and Glossary (http://www.usmaf.org/resources/japan.htm)

A COMPREHENSIVE GLOSSARY OF SWORD TERMS (http://www.nihonto.com/abtglos.html)

Federazione Sports Chanbara (http://www.sportschanbara.it/yari-naginata_e.html)

Japanese Sword Glossary (http://www.shadowofleaves.com/sword_glossary.htm)

If you can remember, somewhat of an aproximation served as inspiration to create the HTH wepon of the Elves in FoTR.

[hoom]

Yes I generally thought that the Elven Swords were Nagamaki, though apparently they came to that via just a long handled normal sword amongst various other dummy shapes given to the stunt guys to play with & they noticed people doing that circular swing thing with it.
Then they sturdied it up to make the final Nagamaki looking thing.

Nearly all the photos & references I've seen (including those presented) seem to indicate that the Sohei used Naginata.
Though http://www.scnf.org/qa.html
Quote[/b] ]In contrast, the nagamaki wasn't developed until much later, during the middle of the Muromachi period (1336-1600A.D.). In fact, the nagamaki is reported to have been favored by General Oda Nobunaga for his front line troops. indicates that Nagimaki were certainly in use during the S:TW time period.

[Random Ronin]

"The introduction of firearms into Japan in the mid-17th*century significantly altered battlefield strategies, and the naginata gradually became a weapon used solely by women for protection in their homes. Naginata training was also used as a means of exercise and character development. During the Edo period, a time of relative peace in feudal Japan, all Japanese women were required to master the naginata by age 18. By this time, naginata were usually ornately decorated, and were considered an essential part of a woman's dowry."

The Naginata was a dying weapon for decades before the firearm appeared, mainly because the entire dynamics of Samurai society was changing. The Naginata was terrific for the early Samurai, back when the individual warrior's prowess was the dominant force and the numbers of warriors in battle relatively small. But by 1530, after some decades of war, the Naginata was just not economically viable, as the men who knew how to use them were in short supply, the men who could train more to use em were tied down in fighting or dead, and the new generations of Samurai were being rushed to war before they could learn the more elaborate weapons of their trade (The Katana was the only weapon you HAD to know).

The Yari put the Naginata firmly on the road to extinction for it was easy to use, cheap to make, and not only killed cavalry, but usually discouraged them from even approaching in the first place. The Samurai found that they could ward off cavalry and infantry with them in the defense, or in the offense, charge an enemy line, either driving them back or lancing one before dumping the Yari and closing in with their Katana.

The features that rendered the Naginata inadequate for the Samurai were no trouble for the women of Japan, who really needed protection from bandits and thieves, especially with their men conscripted as Ashigaru. The Naginata was perfect, for they had the time and expertise to learn the weapon, and it also kept the enemy out of reach, which was good as women rarely had armour or thick muscled bodies that could absorb the blows of Japanese weapons (A strike that would only cut off a man's arm could cleave half-way through a woman's torso, as well as severing the arm). I even recall a story of a band of Mongols who were looking to pillage a house as they had done so many times in China and Korea, only to have their leader cleaved in half at the waist by the lady of the house, sending the rest fleeing like whipped dogs, which is not typical behaviour for Mongols, but I imagine it was not only the first time they had witnessed the awesome power of a Naginata, but also the first time they met a woman who could defend herself in a fashion that threatened their lives.

The Naginata is one of those weapons which simply fell victim to quantity over quality, for it was just not able to match its rivals in the numbers, though it is obvious that the few that were around made an impact all out of proportion to their numbers, especially in the hands of fanatical warrior-monks or a Samurai of the "old skool".

*correction: 16th century

[Kansuke]

Hi


I love the warrior monks, only price stops me using them more frquently than I already do in MP. Occasionally I use a warrior monk as my General, with great success, I hasten to add, Also like to use on of Tetsu's warrior monk army, works great.

ie: a very good defensive army (attacks nice too)

3 monks (including Gen)
3 nd
4 musks
2 sa
2 nc
1 yc
1 ca

works great in 10k Koku games http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[Seven.the.Hun]

this is a great thread...quite informative about the troop types... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Mori Zennousha]

Greetings all...

reading this post, i was curious to find out more myself, and it appears that the Sohei were documented to have used both the naginata and the nagamaki... so for the sake of posterity, it would appear that both are correct...

however, per the WOTD... "The naginata looks remarkably like a quarterstaff with a large sword blade fixed to one end. The Sohei warrior monks particularly favoured them..."

therefore, for the sake of playing STW WE/MI, it is probably safe to assume that the WM's in the game are indeed armed w/ the naginata... regrettably, the STW doc's make no mention of the nagamaki in reference to WM's (if at all), but i wouldn't hold that against the dev's... in every aspect, they did a great job of applying history to the game we know and love...

my $.02,
Z