Battle of Adrianople of AD 378

[ShadesWolf]

Quote[/b] ]Military strategy game in which contestants recreate historical battles, presented by Eddie Mair. A team of councillors from Milton Keynes relives the battle of Adrianople of AD 378, in which an army of the Eastern Roman Empire fought Goth refugees who rose up in armed revolt.

[Kraxis]

Hi Ian. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Councillors??? GAH More cattle for the slaughterIt will be another bloody rout, or cheezy victory. But one can hope, though it is strange that I do since I can't watch it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

At least they get a battle where the forces are fairly equal.

[goscho]

This is outside of the game's timeframe?
Maby the devs are already on the Huns expansion?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[ShadesWolf]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Hi danny

Hope u both are well.

Yes this battle is outside the game time frame, but I think they are just trying to test the game out, and see how modable it is.

[Catiline]

Last weeks was outsdie the timeframe as well, though not by as much as this. Leuctra was in 371 BC

[The Witch-King]

Another battle lost due to poor execution. The plan was good, but in the end they huddled up in the wagon camp and got surrounded and slaughtered. They should have kept those last auxilia in reserve against the cavalry instead of charging them into the huge melee where they would be wasted.

[Kraxis]

We are fine thank you. Say hello to monster for us. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Actually the last three weeks have now been outside the timeframe. I'm beginning to hope for some Pyrrhus battles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

They were the Goths??? Or did I misunderstand you Witch-king? Was the enemy better than at Leuctra? Did it try to win?

[The Witch-King]

No, they were the Romans and yes, the Goths actually fought to win this time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. The Goth infantry were deployed inside a wagoncamp with 4 points of access and the team tried to do a multi-pronged assault, though they send too many troops at a single point of entry. Then the Goth cavalry erupted from the woods (though the team at least knew they were there), swept away the Roman Cavalry (who the team foolishly send in against the Goth infantry, thus suffering heavy losses). The Roman spearmen fought bravely but were overwhelmed and the team retreated inside the wagoncamp. The Goth cavalry then plugged the point of access and the remaining Romans were completely surrounded inside the camp and destroyed.

[rasoforos]

well it was better than usual . They had a plan , they kept to it until things got too dramatic , they lost due to organisation and timing errors and gainst a difficult enemy. Much better than last week's 'victory'

[Kraxis]

Hmm... sounds like they did quite well, I can only see the cavalry as their only mistake. Well tactically it might have been another matter but they are newbies.

How come the infantry couldn't defeat the Gothic cavalry when in confined spaces like in the camp.
So they defeated the infantry?

[The Witch-King]

Yes, I have to give them credit for making a good plan and actually anticipating the Goth Cavalry attack (though their reserves were insufficient to deal with them). At least they fought better to their defeat than previous team fought to their 'victory'. They lost their head in the end though, because sending those last units inside the camp was a grave error. I would have used those auxilia to plug the hole and defend the point of entry against the cavalry, so the Goths couldn't attack the legions in the back. The team simply send them off into the teeming mass of soldiers, thus losing the auxilia's defensive edge. And I still think they placed too much emphasis on the 6 o'clock point of entry.

[The Witch-King]

Well, the Roman army was still fighting the Goth infantry. In the end they had fought themselves into the camp but they were surrounded by the remaining Goth infantry on three sides. The cav then charged them in the back, thus completely encircling them. If they had placed those auxilia in the opening facing outwards the Goth cav would never have been able to charge the legions in the back but would've been forced to go the long way around and charge them from the front.

[econ21]

Yes - an interesting episode and it was not obvious how the Romans could have won. Their mistakes were largely (a) squandering their cav; and (b) cramming their infantry, especially their spear reserve into one entrance to the camp.

The dominant general was almost a caricature of an inept political general; the end gambit to his fellow general "I am going to surrender now, unless I hear otherwise from you... We need to surrender now ... We must surrender ... I am going to surrender ..." made me cringe. Funny thing was, you can imagine the doomed historical Roman Emperor trying a similar line.

But the Goth infantry did hold up the legions pretty effectively. I wonder if trying to go through a gate was a little like trying to force a bridge in STW/MTW - heavy penalties for being trapped in a confined space? If so, it was going to be a tough battle for the Romans anyway (they had a lot less legionnaires than the goths had infantry).

They could easily have defeated the Goth cav outside the camp with their own spears and cav, but breaking into the camp would still have been tough. A more serious effort at a second or third entrance might have been advised.

But the game is looking really good though - someone remind me again why we have to wait a year for it? Commercially speaking, isn't it going to look a lot less impressive in a year's time?

[The Witch-King]

Ah yes, "Lets surrender now, okay?" Very funny indeed. He also seemed to know only one command: "Attack" I simply cringed when he ordered those cav to attack right into the waiting spears of the Goths.

[Spino]

Could anyone tell if custom made units were used in this particular battle or did they simply use the default early Imperial era legions and other units for the Romans? The Roman legions that fought at Adrianople looked quite different from the more familiar Imperial legions of the 1st & 2nd centuries.

A few people from CA have mentioned the need for and production of custom units and/or art for use in TC so I'm wondering if anyone has seen any units which might fit this description.

On an aside, I am also hoping that CA incorporates ALL custom made TC units, art AND battles in RTW when it is released.

[chilling]

Quote[/b] ]I am also hoping that CA incorporates ALL custom made TC units, art AND battles in RTW when it is released

Especially the Godzilla and the reworked Shogun units from the Japanese version. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

The engine looked great tonight. They could do with units having a selection of death animations, especially the horses. The fact that most units die in exactly the same way spoils it for me a bit. Still there's a year until release, plenty of time to get that sorted.


The Battle looked hard, spooking the goths inside the encampment looked inevitable, I would have liked to try and draw them out with the few archers first.

I think the Lieutenants lost the battle, the guy did a fair enough job on the West gate, he could have done with a few more of the troops they blasted through the South gate. The woman didn't have a clue what she was doing really, cavalry all over the place, leaving her reserve behind...

I thought the generals exhibited all those qualities we cherish in our local government. Neither of them really wanting to be exposed for fear of losing votes. One too timid to voice his opinion and the other talking a good plan but failing in the implementation.

[The_Emperor]

I agree that was a very tough battle... Having the Goths camped out in such a defensive position with an ambush in waiting seemed just too rigged against the contestants.

In my view the team would have only two strategies that could win.

1)Attacking by seperating out their infantry and assaulting as many sides as possible simultaniously. Keeping the attacking numbers down so they don't get too crammed in and forcing the Goths to spread themselves out. The Cavalry should have been kept in reserve along with some of those spearmen.

2)Lure the enemy out onto the flat with archer fire and skirmishing tactics, where the roman army and their cavalry can run rings around them. However this is not very likely to work in my opinion because the Goths would not want to abandon the cover and safety of their barricades unless they were sure they were going to win.

The penalties for being trapped in such a confined space look very harsh indeed. We should remember this for when RTW comes out.

[econ21]

Quote[/b] ]The penalties for being trapped in such a confined space look very harsh indeed. We should remember this for when RTW comes out.

There are some pretty harsh penalties for being "overcrowded" in MTW. They are most obvious in bridge and castle gate fights, but I wonder if they apply more widely? I forget the numbers but remember someone from CA pointing them out once. If they do apply beyond bridges and castle gates, it would be a pretty neat feature - I think loss of unit effectiveness due to overcrowding was a key reason for some otherwise unexpected historical victories (Agincourt and Blenheim come to mind). It would imply it is best to keep formations distinct and in different areas, rather than just pile all your men in one place (the latter seemed to happen rather a lot in STW, less in MTW).

It has sometimes been argued that one of the key advantages of the short sword armed legions over the long sword armed barbarians was supposed to be that they could operate in closer formations. MTW gives different units different densities of formation but I am not sure whether they affect when the overcrowding penalty kicks in.

[Talbot]

Was it me or did I see the Roman Auxilarie (sp?) attacking with the base of the spear rather than the spear head?

[The Wizard]

They had a solid plan, but the deployment got screwed up, due to miscommunication and the indirect system of command (i.e. General, who had a plan -> Lieutenant -> operator of game).

The modded legionaries and cav looked cool, as did the cataphracts as always.

After their flanks got swamped by Gothic Cavalry (mainly because the lieutenant on the right had charged her cav into the midst of hundreds of angry, nomadic, starving barbarians fighting for their lives and future, and armed with spears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ), they panicked and swarmed into the absolutely massive melée in the laager... it looked like a scene from LotR 2, it looked amazing

I didn't see any action of the horse archers though.

The legionaries did however beat the Goths hand-to-hand... it was just the fact that their weak flanks were unprotected after the failure of the 3 and 9 o'clock attacks, that the melée became one big meat grinder. In the end the Roman infantry outnumbered Gothic infantry (at least it seemed like it, all the Gothic foot were engaged by then), but the fact that they were completely surrounded kinda slimmed the chances. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[lanky316]

From my view it looks like it was the lady general who cost the team a vital chance of winning (coincidentally the labour member of the team, the rest were lib dem) on numerous occasions.

At the start when the group were advancing keeping it tight towards the 6 o'cock enterance the Goths were a bit more spread out she then made the mistake of rather then waiting till the last minute to seperate the force by leading her cavalry out down a hill miles out leading the Goths to realise it was a decoy flanki assault. Her defence "I'm down a hill where they can't see me". Admitidlye the generals should have realised this and made more of a deal such as peeling off on the other side earlier with cav and aux support and sending aux to support the cav who'd "hidden".

Even still they were doing alright the legionaries were more then apt in hand to hand then we find out that somebody has decided that as they weren't needed immediately to leave her aux troops and archers back at the other end of the map. Leading them to be frog marched across the battlefield to get into combat/shooting range.

A common pick here on the board is that the team charged their cavalry into the spears. The male lieutenant sent his into the 9 o'clock enterance with aux support and if you paid attention was using them as harrasing troops, charging in withdrawing them and then hitting again over and over. On the 3 o'clock entrance after taking a huge detour her cavalry finally arrive exhausted and she allowed them to be bogged down. Notice how on the 9 o'clock it was only the arrival of the Goth cav that actually swung the favour.

Eventually of course all was loston both flanks so the team sent every last person into 6 o'clock and allowed them to be surrounded and massacred. I do feel though that had the lady lieutenant not been responsible for 3 fairly big errors the team may have been able to get the victory.

[Michiel de Ruyter]

This was a battle wich supposeldy went quite like the actual one (at least according to the Cmapaign series volume by Osprey Pub about this battle).

There the author suggests Valens basically got his chances blown by an idiot lieutenant, who, instead of covering the deployment of the army with the right wing cavalry, charged some ofr the cavalry on the Roman left... and got killed when the Goth cavalry showed up (supposedly actually being recalled from foraging, and not set up in an actual ambush... but the timing had the same effect), and while being routed took the left-wing cavalry with him in is flight...

So the Roman infantry ended up being engeged with the Goth infantry, and no cavalry on the flanks...and guess what happened then. They also suggest that the battle was actually fought outside the camp (with the camp behind a ridge)... That book is a good read....

As far as this episode goes: the one to blame is the female lieutenant most of all.
[1] First she simply did not obey her orders at all; so the Goths withdrew inside the camp, making the assault only harder for the Roman infantry. She basically gave the plan away to the AI, and exhausted her acvalry in the process.
[2] She let her cavalry get murdered by the infantry at the 3 o'clock entrance.
[3] Whatever cavalry she had went unsupported to face the Goth onslaught when they sprung their ambush on their left wing. Result was that no cavalry was left. Which enabled them to come around an finish of the roman left-wing cavalry and auxiliaries, who had survived the first wave of Goth cavalry.
[4] She dominated so much with her stupid questioning that she made any communication between the generals and the competent lieutenant impossible.
[/list]

[Cheetah]

Had the romans have any siege engines? Could they destroy the camp? Also, did they have ballistas? I mean the romans had the best siege engineers at the time, a wagoncamp should not be problem for them.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Nov. 18 2003,18:06)]Had the romans have any siege engines? Could they destroy the camp? Also, did they have ballistas? I mean the romans had the best siege engineers at the time, a wagoncamp should not be problem for them.
No they had no siege equipment and only a handful of archers compared to the Goths.

It was an army made up mostly of Infantry and Cavalry.

[Cheetah]

But the roman legions are supposed to have ballistas or not?

[The Witch-King]

Yes, the female lieutenant made a lot of critical errors, but I must note that the foolish decision to attack the goth infantry with the cavalry wasn't hers.

Woman: "Do you want me to hold or to attack with my cav?"

General: "Attack."

*Cavalry attacks and gets slaughtered*

So this was more the general's mistake than the lieutenants.

[Frankymole]

Yes, but I don't know if the general realised her cavalry were no longer attacking with javelins. He didn't ask her to charge inside the wagenlager and then stay there mixing it in melee. He probably expected her to attack with javelins OR to do what the other, more sensible lieutenant was doing, hit and run (and hit again).